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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Eternal Security In Christ -- Yes, Or No?" --  my Christian Friend, Hippie Girl, in responding to the title question, comments, "I'll have to say, 'Yes' on this one.  Actually, I had no idea there were Christians who believe you can't know if you're saved until Judgement Day.  I am truly sorry they go through life not knowing.  What a worry that must be."

And, my legalistic Christian Friend, Contendah, responds to her, "The position taken by the 'once-saved-always saved' (OSAS) folks is not quite as you seem to understand it.  The basis of the OSAS doctrine is derived from the Calvinistic doctrine that God, in His sovereignty, has determined who will be saved and who will be lost and that He did this even before He created man, and that those decisions sealed the fate of both lost and saved persons forever, and cannot be changed.  It is 'reasoned' from that false premise that since God has willed a particular person to be saved, it becomes impossible for that person, once saved, to later become lost."

Not true, my Friend, "Once Saved, Always Saved" is not exclusively a Calvinist position.  I most certainly am not a Calvinist, for I fully deny their teaching of Predestination; yet, I also deny the Arminian teaching that one can lose his/her salvation.  I firmly believe Jesus Christ when He promises us, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47). 

 

In Scripture, when Jesus Christ begins His statement with, "Truly, truly" (nasb) or with "Verily, verily"(kjv), or with "Most assuredly" (nkjv) -- He is not only giving the promise, He is adding emphasis to it.  Upon this emphatic promise from Him, I stand firmly in the "Once Saved, Always Saved" camp.

Personally, I deny 3 of the 5 Calvinist TULIP teachings:  (1) Unconditional Election -- that God chose before the Creation who will be saved, the elect, and who will be lost, the reprobates.  Many Calvinists also deny the gift of "free will" -- that God gave man the responsibility of choosing to either receive Jesus Christ or to deny Him; (2) Limited Atonement -- also known as Particular Atonement, that Christ died for only certain people and not for "whoever believes in Him" as found in John 3:16; and (3) Irresistible Grace -- that a person chosen as elect before the Creation cannot deny Christ and be lost.

Irresistible Grace means that the person whom God has chosen to be saved before the Creation, no matter how that person chooses to live, will be saved.  So, if a person such as Judas, Hitler, Stalin, etc., was chosen by God to be among the elect -- those people will be saved, regardless.  Of course, those in the Irresistible Grace camp might suggest that, if God chose this person to be saved -- that person would not be allowed to do the things Judas, Hitler, and Stalin did during their lives.  If that were true, then people would be only robotic persons and not humans created in the image of God, and with the God given gift of "free will."

Yes, all humans are created in the image of God; spiritual beings with the ability to have emotions, feelings, and to make decisions, to make choices.   We lost the "spiritual" aspect of our personalities when Adam disobeyed God and sinned.  But, because He gave us the gift of "free will" we can choose to follow Jesus Christ and, in effect, reactivate our "spiritual" life, bring it to life again.   That is what happens when a person, by grace, through faith in the finished work of Christ, believes and receives Him as Lord and Savior.

You can read more about TULIP on the CARM (Christian Apologetics Research Ministry) web site:  http://carm.org/calvinism and at the Calvinist web site: http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

The Arminians also have their own Five Point teaching to counter the Calvinists' TULIP.  The Arminian teaching with which I disagree is: Fall from Grace - The teaching that a person who has been truly saved can fall from grace and lose his/her salvation.  You can read more about this at the CARM web site: http://carm.org/dictionary-five-points-arminianism

My personal beliefs are:


I believe we are saved by the grace of God, through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; that this is a free gift from God to all who will believe and receive His "paid in full" gift of eternal life; and that we cannot work for our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I believe that the moment we receive Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and sealed in Christ until the day of our redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).

I believe the day of redemption for all believers is the day when we either die in this mortal body (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:23), or the day when Christ comes to Rapture His church, His body of believers from this earth (John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).  He is our Redeemer Kinsman (Ruth 2:20, 3:9) who will redeem all believers.

"Redemption is a biblical word that means 'a purchase' or 'a ransom.'  Historically, redemption was used in reference to the purchase of a slave’s freedom.  A slave was 'redeemed' when the price was paid for his freedom.  God spoke of Israel’s deliverance from slavery in Egypt in this way: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment' (Exodus 6:6).  The use of redemption in the New Testament includes this same idea.  Every person is a slave to sin; only through the price Jesus paid on the cross is a sinful person redeemed from sin and death.  ('What Is The Meaning Of Christian Redemption?'  http://www.compellingtruth.org...tian-redemption.html)"

And Ephesians 4:30 tells us, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

I believe our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ, sent the Holy Spirit to seal every believer for, or until, the day of our redemption.  And, according to Jesus Christ, in John 10:28-29, NO ONE can snatch the believer out of the hands of God or Jesus Christ.  Put that together with His promise to us found in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life" -- and I feel very secure in Him.  Yes, I know that I HAVE "eternal security" in Jesus Christ -- and that equates to "Once Saved, Always Saved."

 

Then, my legalistic Friend tells me, "Like Paul, one can know at a given time that he/she is in a saved state, but the Scriptures also teach that  a saved person, after being saved, can sin so as to be lost.  It is that concept that is taught in 2 Peter 2, notwithstanding Bill's attempt to show otherwise.  Note also further down in this string how Bill continually fails to respond to the very pertinent point I have challenged him on concerning 2 Peter 2:11-13, which clearly teaches that there is a possibility of a saved person later becoming lost again."

The whole of 2 Peter chapter 2 has to do only with false teachers and their coming fate.  There is no mention in this entire chapter of believers.  I have shown that very thoroughly in my initial post in the Religion Forum discussion titled "Eternal Security In Christ -- Yes, Or No?"   You can also find this discussion in my Facebook Notes page:  https://www.facebook.com/notes...r-no/483691785010313

You mention your earlier reference to 2 Timothy 2:11-13.  Let's take a look at that Scripture passage:


2 Timothy 2:11-13, "It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; (12) If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; (13) If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

 

And, your comments on this passage are, "The 'we' to whom the letter is addressed can be none other than those who had 'died with him.'  That can not be anyone other than believers.  But Paul says that a believer's 'living and reigning with Christ' are things that are CONDITIONAL upon faithfulness.  Otherwise, his use of the conditional 'if' in this passage means nothing.  One must wonder -- What is there about 'if' that Bill does not seem to understand?

By the way, the reference to dying with Christ is a reference to the believer's baptism.  Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 that death to sin, death of the 'old man' of sin, is something that happens when the sinner, in baptism, is 'buried with him through baptism into death.'  (Romans 6: 3-4)"

First, although this book of 2 Timothy is addressed to the young pastor, Timothy -- that specific passage found in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is, as you said, speaking to all believers.

Verse 11 tells us, "For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him."  While it is true that many of the early Christians died for their faith, and even today many persecuted Christians are doing the same -- I do not believe that physically dying is a part of our attaining salvation.  It can be seen as true fruit of a believer's salvation, his faith, that he/she is willing to profess and confess Christ, even to the peril of his own life. 

 

But, unless that person is already a believer, he/she will not be professing and confessing Jesus Christ.  For what non-believer will offer his/her life for a Christ in which he does not believe?  So, unless that person is already a saved believer -- that death would have no meaning.  First comes believing, salvation.  Then comes baptism.

Have we "died with Him" in baptism?  Symbolically, yes.  Actual death, no.  Only Christ could offer that "once for all" sacrifice on the cross.  We follow Him by doing our best to emulate His life and actions in our daily Christian lives.   You mention Romans 6:3-4 in reference to believers being 'buried with him through baptism into death.'  Let's take a closer look at the entire passage:


Romans 6:3-7, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  (4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.  (5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (7) for he who has died is freed from sin."

Romans 6:8-11, "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, (9) knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.  (10) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.  (11) Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

 

This portion of the passage speaks of believers dying with Christ, and being buried with Christ.  And, it speaks of believers being resurrected in the likeness of Christ.  What does this mean?  This passage is speaking of the believer dying to the old self and being buried with Christ.  Are we to actually die to gain this salvation?  First, let's establish one obvious fact.   Here Paul is speaking to believers.   In other words, he is addressing those who have already believed and received His "free gift" of eternal life, i.e., those who already have eternal life in Christ.


Ephesians 1:13 tells us, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

So, having heard the Gospel of salvation, they believed, i.e, they became believers and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.  These people are believers, even though they have NOT yet been baptized.  NOW, they are to be baptized as a way of professing and confessing their belief in Jesus Christ.  Baptism did not save them; it followed their becoming believers.

Therefore, in baptism, we follow Him symbolically in death and burial, i.e., going under the water of baptism.  Then, we are symbolically resurrected with Him when we rise from under the water of baptism.  This is the meaning of Romans 6:3-7.   Through believing in Him, we have died to sin -- and risen as "new creatures in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17).  Therefore, we are dead to sin, the old man held slave to the "sin nature" has died with Him -- and we are alive in Christ (Romans 6:11).

But, let's make one thing very clear.  As long as we are in this mortal body, we will always have the Adamic sin nature.  Our sin debt forgiveness, our full pardon, was "paid in full" by Christ on the cross -- but, we still have to contend with our sin nature in this life.  This is why it is so important that we continue to grow and mature in our walk with Him; through worship and fellowship with other believers, through Bible study (personal and corporate), and through a concerted, daily prayer life.  Through His finished work on the cross, we who are believers -- are "forgiven sinners" who daily need to own our personal sin failures and, through prayers of repentance, continue to seek His forgiveness and His strength to overcome future temptations of that inherited sin nature.

For a moment, let's revisit Roman 6:6, ". . .that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with. . ."   What is Paul saying in this verse?  When Christ was nailed to the cross, God nailed all the sins of all people, from Adam to the last person to be born, on that cross with Him.  In other words, when He went to the cross, the burden of all our sins -- past, present, and future -- were placed upon His precious shoulders.

Why did Christ take such a burden of sin upon Himself?  So that all who, by the grace of God, through faith in His finished work -- can believe, receive his full pardon and forgiveness, and become children of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ.  So, what was crucified with Christ?  All of our sins were crucified with Christ, so that our "body of sin might be done away with" -- forever.  That, in my opinion, is the meaning of Romans 6:6.

But, let's take one more look at your last statement, "By the way, the reference to dying with Christ is a reference to the believer's baptism.  Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 that death to sin, death of the 'old man' of sin, is something that happens when the sinner, in baptism, is 'buried with him through baptism into death.'  (Romans 6: 3-4)"

As we have seen in the Scripture passages above, the believer is dead to sin the moment we believe and are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  The baptism which follows is rather like the pastor who, after marrying a couple, turns to us in the church and says, "Let me introduce to you, Mr. and Mrs. John Smith."   Mary and John were married when they put the rings on one another's finger and said, "I do!" -- and the pastor pronounced them man and wife.

This last part of the ceremony -- is the pastor announcing to friends and family that John and Mary are now man and wife, after the fact.  That is also the function of baptism -- to tell the world that we have believed in Jesus Christ, after the fact.  And, now we are children of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit until our Redeemer Kinsman, our Bridegroom, comes for us.

Let's close by addressing once again your thoughts on 2 Timothy 2:11-13, where you suggest, "But Paul says that a believer's 'living and reigning with Christ' are things that are CONDITIONAL upon faithfulness.  Otherwise, his use of the conditional 'if' in this passage means nothing.  One must wonder -- What is there about 'if' that Bill does not seem to understand?"

I would say that the big IF in this Scripture passage written by Paul is:  IS the person is a believer -- or is the person still denying Jesus Christ?  IF he is a believer, he has life in Christ.  IF he is still denying Christ, then he does not have life in Christ.  Let me offer this statement from GotQuestions.Org in support of what I have just written:


What about a person who denies Christ?  The Bible tells us that if a person denies Christ, he never truly knew Christ to begin with.  1 John 2:19 declares, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.  For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”

A person who rejects Christ and turns his back on faith is demonstrating that he never belonged to Christ.  Those who belong to Christ remain with Christ.  Those who renounce their faith never had it to begin with.  2 Timothy 2:11-13, “Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.” ("Is A Backsliding Christian Still Saved?" http://www.gotquestions.org/ba...iding-Christian.html)

 

So, to recap, the Bible clearly teaches that we are saved, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).  It teaches that the person who is saved cannot be snatched from the hands of God (John 10:28-29).  And, it teaches that when we are saved, we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption, death or rapture (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).   This, my Friends, IS eternal security, this IS "Once Saved, Always Saved."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

Ephesians 1-13, 4-30 - Walk In The Park

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Eternal Security In Christ -- Yes, Or No?" --  my Christian Friend, Hippie Girl, in responding to the title question, comments, "I'll have to say, 'Yes' on this one.  Actually, I had no idea there were Christians who believe you can't know if you're saved until Judgement Day.  I am truly sorry they go through life not knowing.  What a worry that must be."

And, my legalistic Christian Friend, Contendah, responds to her, "The position taken by the 'once-saved-always saved' (OSAS) folks is not quite as you seem to understand it.  The basis of the OSAS doctrine is derived from the Calvinistic doctrine that God, in His sovereignty, has determined who will be saved and who will be lost and that He did this even before He created man, and that those decisions sealed the fate of both lost and saved persons forever, and cannot be changed.  It is 'reasoned' from that false premise that since God has willed a particular person to be saved, it becomes impossible for that person, once saved, to later become lost."

Not true, my Friend, "Once Saved, Always Saved" is not exclusively a Calvinist position.  I most certainly am not a Calvinist, for I fully deny their teaching of Predestination; yet, I also deny the Arminian teaching that one can lose his/her salvation.  I firmly believe Jesus Christ when He promises us, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life" (John 6:47). 

 

In Scripture, when Jesus Christ begins His statement with, "Truly, truly" (nasb) or with "Verily, verily"(kjv), or with "Most assuredly" (nkjv) -- He is not only giving the promise, He is adding emphasis to it.  Upon this emphatic promise from Him, I stand firmly in the "Once Saved, Always Saved" camp.

Personally, I deny 3 of the 5 Calvinist TULIP teachings:  (1) Unconditional Election -- that God chose before the Creation who will be saved, the elect, and who will be lost, the reprobates.  Many Calvinists also deny the gift of "free will" -- that God gave man the responsibility of choosing to either receive Jesus Christ or to deny Him; (2) Limited Atonement -- also known as Particular Atonement, that Christ died for only certain people and not for "whoever believes in Him" as found in John 3:16; and (3) Irresistible Grace -- that a person chosen as elect before the Creation cannot deny Christ and be lost.

Irresistible Grace means that the person whom God has chosen to be saved before the Creation, no matter how that person chooses to live, will be saved.  So, if a person such as Judas, Hitler, Stalin, etc., was chosen by God to be among the elect -- those people will be saved, regardless.  Of course, those in the Irresistible Grace camp might suggest that, if God chose this person to be saved -- that person would not be allowed to do the things Judas, Hitler, and Stalin did during their lives.  If that were true, then people would be only robotic persons and not humans created in the image of God, and with the God given gift of "free will."

Yes, all humans are created in the image of God; spiritual beings with the ability to have emotions, feelings, and to make decisions, to make choices.   We lost the "spiritual" aspect of our personalities when Adam disobeyed God and sinned.  But, because He gave us the gift of "free will" we can choose to follow Jesus Christ and, in effect, reactivate our "spiritual" life, bring it to life again.   That is what happens when a person, by grace, through faith in the finished work of Christ, believes and receives Him as Lord and Savior.

You can read more about TULIP on the CARM (Christian Apologetics Research Ministry) web site:  http://carm.org/calvinism and at the Calvinist web site: http://www.calvinistcorner.com/tulip.htm

The Arminians also have their own Five Point teaching to counter the Calvinists' TULIP.  The Arminian teaching with which I disagree is: Fall from Grace - The teaching that a person who has been truly saved can fall from grace and lose his/her salvation.  You can read more about this at the CARM web site: http://carm.org/dictionary-five-points-arminianism

My personal beliefs are:


I believe we are saved by the grace of God, through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross; that this is a free gift from God to all who will believe and receive His "paid in full" gift of eternal life; and that we cannot work for our salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9).

I believe that the moment we receive Christ as our personal Lord and Savior, we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and sealed in Christ until the day of our redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).

I believe the day of redemption for all believers is the day when we either die in this mortal body (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:23), or the day when Christ comes to Rapture His church, His body of believers from this earth (John 14:1-3, 1 Corinthians 15:50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).  He is our Redeemer Kinsman (Ruth 2:20, 3:9) who will redeem all believers.

"Redemption is a biblical word that means 'a purchase' or 'a ransom.'  Historically, redemption was used in reference to the purchase of a slave’s freedom.  A slave was 'redeemed' when the price was paid for his freedom.  God spoke of Israel’s deliverance from slavery in Egypt in this way: 'I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from slavery to them, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great acts of judgment' (Exodus 6:6).  The use of redemption in the New Testament includes this same idea.  Every person is a slave to sin; only through the price Jesus paid on the cross is a sinful person redeemed from sin and death.  ('What Is The Meaning Of Christian Redemption?'  http://www.compellingtruth.org...tian-redemption.html)"

And Ephesians 4:30 tells us, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

I believe our Redeemer Kinsman, Jesus Christ, sent the Holy Spirit to seal every believer for, or until, the day of our redemption.  And, according to Jesus Christ, in John 10:28-29, NO ONE can snatch the believer out of the hands of God or Jesus Christ.  Put that together with His promise to us found in John 6:47, "He who believes HAS eternal life" -- and I feel very secure in Him.  Yes, I know that I HAVE "eternal security" in Jesus Christ -- and that equates to "Once Saved, Always Saved."

 

Then, my legalistic Friend tells me, "Like Paul, one can know at a given time that he/she is in a saved state, but the Scriptures also teach that  a saved person, after being saved, can sin so as to be lost.  It is that concept that is taught in 2 Peter 2, notwithstanding Bill's attempt to show otherwise.  Note also further down in this string how Bill continually fails to respond to the very pertinent point I have challenged him on concerning 2 Peter 2:11-13, which clearly teaches that there is a possibility of a saved person later becoming lost again."

The whole of 2 Peter chapter 2 has to do only with false teachers and their coming fate.  There is no mention in this entire chapter of believers.  I have shown that very thoroughly in my initial post in the Religion Forum discussion titled "Eternal Security In Christ -- Yes, Or No?"   You can also find this discussion in my Facebook Notes page:  https://www.facebook.com/notes...r-no/483691785010313

You mention your earlier reference to 2 Timothy 2:11-13.  Let's take a look at that Scripture passage:


2 Timothy 2:11-13, "It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; (12) If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; (13) If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

 

And, your comments on this passage are, "The 'we' to whom the letter is addressed can be none other than those who had 'died with him.'  That can not be anyone other than believers.  But Paul says that a believer's 'living and reigning with Christ' are things that are CONDITIONAL upon faithfulness.  Otherwise, his use of the conditional 'if' in this passage means nothing.  One must wonder -- What is there about 'if' that Bill does not seem to understand?

By the way, the reference to dying with Christ is a reference to the believer's baptism.  Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 that death to sin, death of the 'old man' of sin, is something that happens when the sinner, in baptism, is 'buried with him through baptism into death.'  (Romans 6: 3-4)"

First, although this book of 2 Timothy is addressed to the young pastor, Timothy -- that specific passage found in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is, as you said, speaking to all believers.

Verse 11 tells us, "For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him."  While it is true that many of the early Christians died for their faith, and even today many persecuted Christians are doing the same -- I do not believe that physically dying is a part of our attaining salvation.  It can be seen as true fruit of a believer's salvation, his faith, that he/she is willing to profess and confess Christ, even to the peril of his own life. 

 

But, unless that person is already a believer, he/she will not be professing and confessing Jesus Christ.  For what non-believer will offer his/her life for a Christ in which he does not believe?  So, unless that person is already a saved believer -- that death would have no meaning.  First comes believing, salvation.  Then comes baptism.

Have we "died with Him" in baptism?  Symbolically, yes.  Actual death, no.  Only Christ could offer that "once for all" sacrifice on the cross.  We follow Him by doing our best to emulate His life and actions in our daily Christian lives.   You mention Romans 6:3-4 in reference to believers being 'buried with him through baptism into death.'  Let's take a closer look at the entire passage:


Romans 6:3-7, "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?  (4) Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.  (5) For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, (6) knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; (7) for he who has died is freed from sin."

Romans 6:8-11, "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, (9) knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.  (10) For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.  (11) Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

 

This portion of the passage speaks of believers dying with Christ, and being buried with Christ.  And, it speaks of believers being resurrected in the likeness of Christ.  What does this mean?  This passage is speaking of the believer dying to the old self and being buried with Christ.  Are we to actually die to gain this salvation?  First, let's establish one obvious fact.   Here Paul is speaking to believers.   In other words, he is addressing those who have already believed and received His "free gift" of eternal life, i.e., those who already have eternal life in Christ.


Ephesians 1:13 tells us, "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."

 

So, having heard the Gospel of salvation, they believed, i.e, they became believers and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.  These people are believers, even though they have NOT yet been baptized.  NOW, they are to be baptized as a way of professing and confessing their belief in Jesus Christ.  Baptism did not save them; it followed their becoming believers.

Therefore, in baptism, we follow Him symbolically in death and burial, i.e., going under the water of baptism.  Then, we are symbolically resurrected with Him when we rise from under the water of baptism.  This is the meaning of Romans 6:3-7.   Through believing in Him, we have died to sin -- and risen as "new creatures in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17).  Therefore, we are dead to sin, the old man held slave to the "sin nature" has died with Him -- and we are alive in Christ (Romans 6:11).

But, let's make one thing very clear.  As long as we are in this mortal body, we will always have the Adamic sin nature.  Our sin debt forgiveness, our full pardon, was "paid in full" by Christ on the cross -- but, we still have to contend with our sin nature in this life.  This is why it is so important that we continue to grow and mature in our walk with Him; through worship and fellowship with other believers, through Bible study (personal and corporate), and through a concerted, daily prayer life.  Through His finished work on the cross, we who are believers -- are "forgiven sinners" who daily need to own our personal sin failures and, through prayers of repentance, continue to seek His forgiveness and His strength to overcome future temptations of that inherited sin nature.

For a moment, let's revisit Roman 6:6, ". . .that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with. . ."   What is Paul saying in this verse?  When Christ was nailed to the cross, God nailed all the sins of all people, from Adam to the last person to be born, on that cross with Him.  In other words, when He went to the cross, the burden of all our sins -- past, present, and future -- were placed upon His precious shoulders.

Why did Christ take such a burden of sin upon Himself?  So that all who, by the grace of God, through faith in His finished work -- can believe, receive his full pardon and forgiveness, and become children of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ.  So, what was crucified with Christ?  All of our sins were crucified with Christ, so that our "body of sin might be done away with" -- forever.  That, in my opinion, is the meaning of Romans 6:6.

But, let's take one more look at your last statement, "By the way, the reference to dying with Christ is a reference to the believer's baptism.  Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 that death to sin, death of the 'old man' of sin, is something that happens when the sinner, in baptism, is 'buried with him through baptism into death.'  (Romans 6: 3-4)"

As we have seen in the Scripture passages above, the believer is dead to sin the moment we believe and are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit.  The baptism which follows is rather like the pastor who, after marrying a couple, turns to us in the church and says, "Let me introduce to you, Mr. and Mrs. John Smith."   Mary and John were married when they put the rings on one another's finger and said, "I do!" -- and the pastor pronounced them man and wife.

This last part of the ceremony -- is the pastor announcing to friends and family that John and Mary are now man and wife, after the fact.  That is also the function of baptism -- to tell the world that we have believed in Jesus Christ, after the fact.  And, now we are children of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit until our Redeemer Kinsman, our Bridegroom, comes for us.

Let's close by addressing once again your thoughts on 2 Timothy 2:11-13, where you suggest, "But Paul says that a believer's 'living and reigning with Christ' are things that are CONDITIONAL upon faithfulness.  Otherwise, his use of the conditional 'if' in this passage means nothing.  One must wonder -- What is there about 'if' that Bill does not seem to understand?"

I would say that the big IF in this Scripture passage written by Paul is:  IS the person is a believer -- or is the person still denying Jesus Christ?  IF he is a believer, he has life in Christ.  IF he is still denying Christ, then he does not have life in Christ.  Let me offer this statement from GotQuestions.Org in support of what I have just written:


What about a person who denies Christ?  The Bible tells us that if a person denies Christ, he never truly knew Christ to begin with.  1 John 2:19 declares, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us.  For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.”

A person who rejects Christ and turns his back on faith is demonstrating that he never belonged to Christ.  Those who belong to Christ remain with Christ.  Those who renounce their faith never had it to begin with.  2 Timothy 2:11-13, “Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.” ("Is A Backsliding Christian Still Saved?" http://www.gotquestions.org/ba...iding-Christian.html)

 

So, to recap, the Bible clearly teaches that we are saved, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).  It teaches that the person who is saved cannot be snatched from the hands of God (John 10:28-29).  And, it teaches that when we are saved, we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption, death or rapture (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).   This, my Friends, IS eternal security, this IS "Once Saved, Always Saved."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

Ephesians 1-13, 4-30 - Walk In The Park

---------------------------------

?

It sure took a  lot of time and effort to write something there, Bill, that completely misses the point.

Let us get to the real meat of this issue.  You say:

 

"First, although this book of 2 Timothy is addressed to the young pastor, Timothy -- that specific passage found in 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is, as you said, speaking to all believers.

 

Seeing that we agree that the "we" of II Timothy includes "believers," let us just do a little logical substitution exercise with the passage.  Where it says "we", let us substitute "believers."  Hold on--here we go:

 

"It is a trustworthy statement: For if believers died with Him,  believers will also live with Him; (12) If believers endure, believers will also reign with Him; If believers deny Him, He also will deny them; (13) If believers are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

 

So you see, the passage is indeed teaching the possibility that believers can deny Christ and that believers can become "faithless." Unlike you, Bill,  I don't need hundreds of words and streams of desperate circumlocution to try to prove something that the scriptures simply won't support.
 

 

Hi Contendah,

 

Okay, my Friend -- you go ahead and die to gain your salvation.  And, I will live for Christ to gain mine.  Then, we both can be happy.

 

But, if everyone in you church died for their salvation -- how is it that you have a church fellowship.  Everyone should be dead so that they can have salvation.   So, that must mean that everyone in your church, including yourself, are not saved -- for you are still alive.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Contendah,

 

Okay, my Friend -- you go ahead and die to gain your salvation.  And, I will live for Christ to gain mine.  Then, we both can be happy.

 

But, if everyone in you church died for their salvation -- how is it that you have a church fellowship.  Everyone should be dead so that they can have salvation.   So, that must mean that everyone in your church, including yourself, are not saved -- for you are still alive.

 

 

**********************

The Christian hopes to live and reign with Christ forever through baptism,

and knows the Christian life includes endurance to the end, to witness and

some suffering. Paul was jailed for preaching the gospel. What Paul suffered

will in turn help in the salvation of the elect to receive salvation in Christ.

2 Tim 2: 9-10

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Contendah,

 

Okay, my Friend -- you go ahead and die to gain your salvation.  And, I will live for Christ to gain mine.  Then, we both can be happy.

 

But, if everyone in you church died for their salvation -- how is it that you have a church fellowship.  Everyone should be dead so that they can have salvation.   So, that must mean that everyone in your church, including yourself, are not saved -- for you are still alive.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

___

 

You have now descended into rank silliness and sloppy expository nonsense, Bill.

 

Not only have you totally dodged the challenge I have offered to your interpretation of II Timothy 2:11-13, you have posted an egregiously flawed analysis that confuses death to sin (the obvious topic in Romans 6) with physical death.   Paul obviously understood the nature of the "death" of which he wrote in Romans 6.  It is the same "death" he addresses in Colossians 2:20-23 and 3:1-3:

 

"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?"

 

"If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.  For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.  When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."


Paul had no trouble in considering himself "dead" in the sense in which death is described in Romans 6 and in these Colossians passages.  Answer this, Bill: Are you "dead" in the sense that Paul describes "death"?  If your answer is "yes", then the inane conclusions of your second paragraph ("Everyone should be dead so that they can have salvation.   So, that must mean that everyone in your church, including yourself, are not saved -- for you are still alive") apply to you.  If your answer is "no," then you need to do whatever you have to do to experience the "death" that the apostle finds so central and essential to being saved. Which is it, Bill--yes or no?  Or can we expect more bogus expository maneuvering to defend the indefensible?

 

   

Hi Contendah,

 

Finally, we are getting down to the nitty gritty.  The issue you and I are really discussing is our old friend, baptism.   You believe that a person is saved through baptism.   And, I believe the Bible teaches that baptism is an outer manifestation of an inner change, i.e., salvation, regeneration, becoming a new person in Christ.

 

And, once again, I will refer back to the most commonly used Scripture passages used to support your belief in salvation through baptism:

 

Acts 2:38, "Peter said to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' "

 

Notice that Peter first tells them to REPENT.   When one repents, he turns from following the world and turns to follow Jesus Christ.  Basically, this is the meaning of repent.  So, what happens when a person repents and turns to Jesus Christ?    Immediately, in the blink of an eye, that person is indwelled and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13), "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."    At that moment, this person is saved.  And, THEN, that person is baptized.

 

A second Scripture passage which explains the process of salvation, and then baptism, is found in Acts 10, when Peter goes to the home of Cornelius, the Roman Centurion -- and all of Cornelius' household become believers -- and, then, are baptized.


Acts 10:44-48, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.  (45) All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.  (46) For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God.  Then Peter answered, (47) 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?'  (48) And [THEN] he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.  Then they asked him to stay on for a few days."

 

Note:  The bracketed [THEN] I have added for clarification.

 

Contendah, while you and I both emphasize the importance of baptism; the act of baptism does not save anyone.  A person is saved, becomes a born-again believer, is indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit -- and, THEN, is baptized to be obedient to Jesus Christ.  He tells us to be baptized and to have regular Communion in remembrance of Him, until He comes again.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Good evening Bill,

Actually, the Bible does not teach"Once Saved, Always Saved."

As Paul says:  If we persevere, we shall  reign with Him."  It's conditional on persevering to the end.  Its not once saved and always saved. Salvation can be lost.  Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

God bless!!

Hi Nathan,

 

The Bible clearly teaches that we are saved, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- alone (Ephesians 2:8-9).  It teaches that the person who is saved cannot be snatched from the hands of God (John 10:28-29).  And, it teaches that when we are saved, we are indwelled and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption, death or rapture (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).   This, my Friends, IS eternal security, this IS "Once Saved, Always Saved." 

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Good evening Bill,

John 10:28 refers to Christ's sheep, if we look at the preceeding verse-- My sheep hear my voice and they FOLLOW me. This word "follow" is in the Continuous Greek tense thus is not a one time  profession of faith, but a endurance and requires the gift of perserverance.  
Also remember sheep can wander of their own free will. Look at luke 15 if you need evidence that sheep can wander.

As previously noted, Scripture says we must persevere to the end.  Once saved always saved is not Scriptural.

 

God bless!!

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