quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Originally posted by beternU:
So, according to Bill Gray, the numerical factors--numbers of churches, Bible collegeg (sic), radio ministries, etc.--confirm that the labors of Chuck Smith are the product of the Holy Spirit.
Numbers don't prove godliness or faithfulness to His word. Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost to do the same thing that Peter told the lost to do in Acts 2:38? Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost what Ananias told Paul to do in Acts 22:16? Or does Pastor Chuck Smith simply parrot the deadly, un-scriptural notion that one must only say some kind of "sinner's prayer" and "ask Jesus to come into your heart"?
Hi Beter,
Assuming you have a church -- how many churches has your church planted? How many have, by grace, through faith, been saved in your church?
How do you measure the "spiritual growth" in your church?
You seem to dislike all conservative theology pastors and teachers. Who DO YOU like? Who DO YOU believe to be a good pastor/teacher?
I am sincerely interested in reading your answers.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine. I have no idea why you think that I dislike all conservative theology, since "my" theology is more conservative than yours. I take ALL of God's word to be true. I defend the Biblical position on issues like "eternal security" and the purpose of baptism against the distorted theology that you and others bring to those subjects. You have yet to defend "Eternal security" against the clear and powerful teaching of II Peter 2: I gotcha "eternal security" right heah, Bill. Read it and pay special attention to the highlighted portions and then try to tell me that a saved person can not be lost:
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, {can't 'forsake' something, Bill, without having first accepted it]and are gone astray[/B][can't go 'astray, Bill,without having first been where one should be] following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For [B]if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ[/B],[These obviously are persons who at one time "escaped," but who returned to the 'pollutions of the world."] the they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and [B]the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.[Washing signifies cleansing, Bill, and the obvious allusion is that these miscreants Peter was describing had indeed once been cleansed of sin, but now had returned to their former lives of willful sinning]
See how theologically conservative I am, Bill. I take the Word for what it says. You cherry-pick your Bible and torque passages to extract meaning that is just not there. You have often run from the truth about "eternal security" but you can't hide from the inspired apostolic teaching so clearly set forth by Brother Peter.
I would advise you to follow the apostolic teaching on this point and to thereby enhance the conservatism of YOUR theology!