Bill Gray blithers as follows:
<<<Contendah, on the other hand, just yells out his beliefs, makes up childish names to call anyone who disagrees with him -- and no Biblical proof.>>>
That same blithering Bill has thus far failed to respond to the following (in blue) challenge I posed to him on Monday. Forum readers can decide for themselves whether my post is no more than "yelling and silly name calling."
<<<Ah, Bill, you are so transparently evasive. You quoted, AND THEN TOTALLY IGNORED that part of the Hebrews 6 passage that affirms that the persons described there had ""become partakers of the Holy Ghost." And you utterly failed to answer the question that I repeatedly posed to you, namely:
The believers in Hebrews 6:1-9 [believers who were believers indeed, having become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (V. 4)] became apostates who were deemed to have "crucified the Son of God afresh" (v. 5). Were those apostate former believers saved, Bill?
You boogied over to another passage, Ephesians 1:13:
"In Him, you also, after listening (hearing)to the message of truth, the Gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
You contend that this passage somehow trumps the Hebrews 6 passage because the Ephesian passage specifically mentions that the subject persons "believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit."
But tell us, Bill, what is the difference between "being sealed with the Holy Spirit" (Ephesians 1:13) and "having partaken of the Holy Ghost" (Hebrews 6:4). More particularly, what is the difference between the two passages that assures you that the Ephesian were believers indeed but those persons described in Hebrews 6:4 had never been true believers?
Both had received the Holy Spirit, Bill. Are you telling me that there was something in the manner in which the persons in Hebrews 6 had received the Holy Spirit that left them short of having believed as they should have?
It is axiomatic that the persons described in Hebrews 6:4 were once Christian believers, but had apostatized. Among other things, it is evident that they had at some former time repented, since it would make no sense to say that "it is impossible to restore [them] again to repentance" unless they had repented at an earlier time. Moreover, they had been"enlightened." Thayer, the eminent Greek lexicographer (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,1963 Edition, page 663), says that the Greek word here used is in reference to "those who had been made Christians." He cites Hebrews 10:32 ("But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened you endured a hard struggle with sufferings....") as having identical meaning and there can be no doubt but that in that passage it is Christians who are being addressed and described.
So there you have it, Bill Gray. You have placed yourself in the untenable position of declaring that the persons described in Hebrews 6:4, although they had repented, and been "enlightened" and had "become partakers of the Holy Spirit" nevertheless had somehow never "believed" and thus never were true Christians.
To contend that the formerly penitent, formerly enlightened persons there described were never believers is a zany exercise in Calvinistic eisegesis, Bill, and you should be ashamed of buying into such a distorted interpretation. Such hermeneutical misadventures, alas, are the inevitable refuge of those who seek to defend the indefensible Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance!
As to that Colossians 1:23 passage and your astonishing misinterpretation, Bill, I can only say "GOOD GRIEF!" What in thunder is the apostle describing if not SAVED BELIEVERS??!! He says this:
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...." Read that again, Bill and tell us just how those Colossians can "continue in the faith grounded and settled"and still not be saved believers. And do not try to contend that Paul was writing to anyone here but Christians. In the second verse of the same chapter, he describes who he is writing to: "To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse...." Paul leaves no doubt that he considers these "faithful brethren" to be saved persons or he would not have addressed them in this manner.
Bill, you dance around the second part of verse 23 in a feeble, irrational attempt to argue that though they had "heard", they could not be said to be true believers, that they had not taken the "final step and BELIEVED in Him unto salvation." Again, Bill, just how could those Colossian "saints and faithful brethren" "continue in the faith grounded and settled" and still not have "BELIEVED"? ? How could they "continue in the faith" without having ever been "in the faith"? One can not continue in something unless one is in that something already!
In the beginning of this string, Bill, you exulted in the fact that there are many viewers of this forum and that through your so-called ministry, at least some of them might find the truth. It is my fond hope that at least some of them might read the truth that I have posted above about the utter falsity and shabbiness of your Calvinistic distortions of the meaning of the scriptures discussed above. >>>