quote:Originally posted by Bill Gray:quote:Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Hi GB,
Matthew 24:29-31 is referring to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, not the Rapture. We know this because we are told in Matthew 24:30, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
In the Rapture, Jesus Christ does not come with great fanfare -- but, like a thief in the night, when no one is expecting Him. This is why He tells us to be ready at all times.
Yet, at His Second Coming -- He most certainly is coming back in power and glory -- the Lion of Judah.
This is what Matthew 24 is describing -- His Second Coming in power and glory. There is no other way to look at it.
Sure, you can demand a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath Rapture -- but, it is not supported by Scripture. The only End Times scenario supported by Scripture is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture and a Pre-Millennial Return of Christ.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Bill, There is most certainly another way to interpret Matthew 24 and it's called the "correct" way. Your so hung up on defending a pre-tribulation rapture position, which isn't backed by scripture and cannot be accepted without taking (or unless taking) scripture out of context, that you fail to reasonably consider another meaning for that scripture because that would refute your staunchly held belief that pre-tribulation is right. Fact is that it (pre-tribulation) is wrong and not supported by Scripture. What Scripture does support is a Rapture, before the Wrath of God is released upon the World but after Revelation 6, seals, which are not God's Wrath but foretelling of disastrous and horrendous events that will be visited upon mankind brought on by evil man and the antichrist.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NIV) 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
The Lord himself will come down from heaven .... with the trumpet call of God ... dead rise first ... we who are alive caught up .. as in up away from earth as IN THE AIR .
Matthew 24:30-31 (NIV) 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Verse 30 ... appear "in the sky" .... Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky (that's in the air) ... vs 31 .. send his angels (agents of God to gather .. as in catch up as in assist the Rapture of the saints .. and note from vs 31 AND 1 Thes 4:16 with a loud trumpet call. Note 1 Thes 4:16 says Trumpet call of God ... vs 31 says the angels with a loud trumpet call .. that's the trumpet call of God and angels are the messengers of God just as it is Angels that will bring God's Wrath in Revelation.
Bill ... rewrite and take scripture out of context all you want to prove a point that you can't scripturally support but that doesn't make it right or correct. There is nothing at all in these scriptures that voids that the Rapture comes without warning at a time when people think not. That also doesn't preclude that there will be signs to warn or signal to the Believers, that are alive then, that the coming of the Lord and the Rapture is "at hand". Not the day and hour but that the season has come. Just as Christ own example
Matthew 24:32-33 (NIV) 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Again 1 Thessalonians 5:4 fits right in ... You Brothers are not in darkness.
Bill, your outright refusal to acknowledge this in the light of Scripture, in order to reinforce a theory or teaching that cannot be backed up by Scripture, called Pre-Tribulation is confusing given that you seem to be well studied and I would assume would continue to do so and would want to. I know you have all the tools and understanding necessary to comprehend this and I think if you seriously consider these points in the whole context of scripture without starting from the basis of defending a doctrine that you and many others hold so dear to their heart, a doctrine that has been taught and entrenched in protestant churches over the last 175 years but literally void in the light of Scripture.
It is the same type teachings (same as pre-tribulation) that lead to the need for Chapter 2 of 2 Thessalonians.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (NIV) 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
People were unsettled that maybe they missed the Rapture and that Christ had already come, leaving them behind in a Rapture that would occur without notice or any idea when it would happen. Note that there are signs that precede the time that Christ comes for his Church in the Rapture and it will also not occur until the man of lawlessness is revealed. This when the abomination of desolation happens which according to pre-trib folks, that happens after the rapture when the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2 plainly says it (the rapture) will happen after the abomination of desolation, between Revelation 6 and Revelation 8 or more specifically shown to occur in Revelation 7:9.
Frankly Bill, I don't see any other way that these verses can be taken other than taking them out of their context and fashioning them, in a figuratively way, to meet ones own beliefs.