3:00pm

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
From noon onward, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And about three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" ... Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. Mt. 27

One could only imagine the joy in Heaven when only one person pauses at three o'clock every day and recognizes the sacrifice of Jesus, his suffering and death for the payment of our sins. What response would come from Heaven if millions of us paused at three o'clock every day and recognized this sacrifice of Jesus? It only takes a few seconds each day to confirm our belief in the truth and our appreciation of his love for us.

I challenged myself and I challenge you to take a few seconds every day and honor Jesus by recognizing the hour in which he sacrificed his life for us. At three o'clock pause for a moment and silently in your mind remember Jesus.

Hi David,

That is a beautiful thought. And, on this you and I are in full agreement. Although, I would not limit this thanksgiving to just 3:00 PM -- but, to be a continual part of our daily lives.

We should all look to the heavens, to the throne of God where Jesus Christ is sitting at His right hand, interceding continually for all Christian believers.

And, we should be telling everyone we know that they, too, can have Him as their personal Mediator -- if they will only by grace, through faith in Him -- believe and receive His free gift of salvation.

We, you and I, should be continually sowing seeds of salvation which the Holy Spirit can harvest into saved souls -- adding daily to the Family of God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

We, you and I, should be continually sowing seeds of salvation which the Holy Spirit can harvest into saved souls -- adding daily to the Family of God.

Bill, I hate to tell you this but your seeds are rotten.



Nice post HOD.

very nice post HoD.

and yeah.. Bill's seed sow naught but hate and lies.

life sure has been more peaceful without having his petty BS on my screen. i've acctually begun to enjoy this forum a little again..

Hang around more. We need sane input.

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
and yeah.. Bill's seed sow naught but hate and lies.

life sure has been more peaceful without having his petty BS on my screen. i've acctually begun to enjoy this forum a little again..

That's what I've been trying to tell y'all.

Arguing with Bill doesn't do any good, he refuses to get it.

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
I challenge you to take a few seconds every day and honor Jesus by recognizing the hour in which he sacrificed his life for us. At three o'clock pause for a moment and silently in your mind remember Jesus.

BUT to do that, I have to believe beyond a doubt that he actually exist.

quote:

Originally posted by semiannualchick:

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
I challenge you to take a few seconds every day and honor Jesus by recognizing the hour in which he sacrificed his life for us. At three o'clock pause for a moment and silently in your mind remember Jesus.

BUT to do that, I have to believe beyond a doubt that he actually exist.

I understand..... hope know one is offended by the word challenge... that's not mean't to be in a "GRRR" kinda way....

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
hope know one is offended by the word challenge... that's not mean't to be in a "GRRR" kinda way....

No, I didn't take it that way at all.

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:

quote:

We, you and I, should be continually sowing seeds of salvation which the Holy Spirit can harvest into saved souls -- adding daily to the Family of God.

Bill, I hate to tell you this but your seeds are rotten. Nice post HOD.

SPOKEN LIKE A GOOD NEW AGE/WICCAN/CATHOLIC/CHRISTIAN!

Spoken like a hateful, spiteful, immature, domineering judgmental fundamentalist who yells in CAPS!

Really Bill, you are too emotional. PMS day?

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
Spoken like a hateful, spiteful, immature, domineering judgmental fundamentalist who yells in CAPS!
Really Bill, you are too emotional. PMS day?

NO, NO, NO! - B, DON'T YOU KNOW WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO SAY "PMS" AROUND THE LADIES?

IT'S OK BILL, IN THIS CASE IT MEANS 'PERMANENT MALE STUPIDITY'!

quote:

Originally posted by b50m:
IT'S OK BILL, IN THIS CASE IT MEANS 'PERMANENT MALE STUPIDITY'!

ONLY IN NEW AGE AND WICCAN RELIGIONS!

NO BILL, IT MEANS IT IN ALL RELIGIONS. IT'S UNIVERSAL.
I MADE IT UP TOO. DON'T YOU THINK IT FITS YOU?

Nice post, HoD.
I actually make a point to use that hour (3pm) to pray every day- it's funny, because I am always in the EXACT same place at 3pm every day, so I am prompted/reminded to pray at that moment-
Calling to mind Jesus' suffering and death is a beautiful way to immediately humble ourselves and "toss out" our worries of the day.

"Permanent Male Stupidity"! LMAO!


uh.... wait..... I resent that!


nsns

oh i resent it as well NSNS... mostly because it's not totally inaccurate

whip out a boob and see how stupid men get

Thank you, my own creation.

And you are forgiven for being that way!

dose of reality: the story of jesus is simply a regurgitation of many previous god/man/resurrection stories. claiming that he died at 3:00 is just goofy.

sorry, duded and dudettes, the jesus story is clearly a myth.

quote:

whip out a boob and see how stupid men get

LOL! Nagel!!! How I have missed you!!

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:
dose of reality: the story of jesus is simply a regurgitation of many previous god/man/resurrection stories. claiming that he died at 3:00 is just goofy.

sorry, duded and dudettes, the jesus story is clearly a myth.

you have proof it's false?
i will wait patiently until you offer conclusive proof that the story of jesus was fabricated.

quote:

Originally posted by vplee123:

quote:

whip out a boob and see how stupid men get

LOL! Nagel!!! How I have missed you!!

i been here.. just haven't felt like going over the same old same old again, ya know?
catholics aren't christian, gays are evil, all fundys go to heaven, same old regurgitated Billspeak, so i been playing in other places till i saw soemthing worh commenting on.
and then i saw this, and an opportunity to turn the discussion to boobs, and i took it

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:

quote:

Originally posted by Unobtanium:
dose of reality: the story of jesus is simply a regurgitation of many previous god/man/resurrection stories. claiming that he died at 3:00 is just goofy.

sorry, duded and dudettes, the jesus story is clearly a myth.

you have proof it's false?
i will wait patiently until you offer conclusive proof that the story of jesus was fabricated.

Greek god:
Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.

He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.

He “rode in a triumphal procession on an donkey.”

He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.

Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.

He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.

He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”

He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.


Persian god:
He was buried in a tomb from which He rose again from the dead—an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing.

Every year in Rome, in the middle of winter, the Son of God was born one more, putting an end to darkness. Every year at first minute of December 25th the temple of Mithras was lit with candles, priests in in white garments celebrated the birth of the Son of God and boys burned incense. Mithras was born in a cave, on December 25th, of a virgin mother.

He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sin. He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God."

His followers kept the Sabbath holy, eating sacramental meals in remembrance of Him. The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.

Baptism in the blood of the bull (taurobolium)—early
Baptism "washed in the blood of the Lamb"—late
Baptism by water [recorded by the Christian author Tertullian]

Mithraic rituals brought about the transformation and Salvation of His adherents—an ascent of the soul of the adherent into the realm of the divine. From the wall of a Mithraic temple in Rome: "And thou hast saved us by shedding the eternal blood."

The great Mithraic festivals celebrated His birth (at the winter solstice) and His death and resurrection (at the spring solstice)

Krishna hindu god

Krishna was miraculously conceived and born of the Virgin Devaki ("Divine One") as a divine incarnation.

He was born at a time when his family had to travel to pay the yearly tax.

His father was a carpenter yet Krishna was born of royal descent.

His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was presented with gifts.

He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants who feared that the divine child would supplant his kingdom.

His father was warned by a heavenly voice to flee the tyrant who sought the death of the child. The child was then saved by friends who fled with them in the night to a distant country. When the tyrant learned that his attempt to kill the child failed, he issued a decree that all the infants in the area be killed.

Krishna worked miracles and wonders such as raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.

Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love.

Jesus taught his disciples about the possibility of removing a mountain by faith. According to tradition, Krishna raised Mount Goverdhen above his disciples to protect his worshipers from the wrath of Indra.

"He lived poor and he loved the poor."

Krishna washed the feet of the Brahmins and transfigured before his disciples.

Krishna was crucified. According to some traditions, Krishna died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.

He descended to hell, rose bodily from the dead, and ascended to heaven which was witnessed by many.

Krishna is called the "shepherd god" and "lord of lords," and was considered "the redeemer, firstborn, sin bearer, liberator, universal Word."

He is the second person of the trinity, and proclaimed himself the "resurrection" and the "way to the Father."

He was considered the "beginning, the middle and the end," ("alpha and omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

His disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."

Krishna is to return again riding a white horse to do battle with the "prince of evil," who will desolate the Earth.

These are just a few. All of them were believed to be true thousands or hundreds of years before jesus.

None of them can be "proven" false, but if you believe one to be the truth how can you deny the others?

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

These are just a few. All of them were believed to be true thousands or hundreds of years before jesus.

None of them can be "proven" false, but if you believe one to be the truth how can you deny the others?

Never said i did, dear.

to me all of that present ideas of great interest.
leads me to think that all the stories added together add more probability that they are all different versions of the same story. when you have so many different cultures telling the same story in so many different locations across the earth, from so many different times, with only slight differences in names and circumstances, it tends to make me think there was some single event that acctually did happen, and we are just hearing different versions of the same thing, as seen form different witnesses.

it comes back to somethign i've said time and time again - God doesn't care what you call him. Jehovah, Yaweh, Allah, whatever. there is only one, and only one messiah, but different events were seen different ways by different people and meant different things to different people, so we have the 100's of religion across the planet.

as to why so many are needed... well, do you liek asparagus? my wife does. i hate it. and brussel sprouts. hate hate hate them. my sister likes them, i think.
different people have different desires, goals, dreams, and needs. what would appeal to me might not appeal to you. something that you and i like would make bill grays eyes bug out.

so to cover as many people as possible, it was seen and interpreted many different ways. did you know that almost every culture has a 'great flood' story? all of them can't be fake or fiction.

maybe the exact story of Jesus as told by the bible isn't exactly literally what happened at the time, but for some many different cultures to have a similar story using some of the same phrases... well, while you seem to think it's an automatic Shennanagans check, i find that it adds credence that SOMEthing happened, even if we don't knwo exactly what. of course Bill will mouth off soon to ell us al lwhat happened, but bill is so full of it his ears leak.
i don't think god really cares which version you believe, as long as you believe.

my issue was that Unob said
"sorry, duded and dudettes, the jesus story is clearly a myth."

and, clearly, he has no way to prove this at all.

tell me you don't believe that there is a god, that's fine - tell me you believe that there is no god, that's fine too.

but he was stateing, as tho it were hard demonstrable fact, that God and jesus are pure myth.

and i was just asking him to back up his statments.

i have no problem with you or billy joe, or even NSNS, because while athiest you seem to return respect for us believes who offere respect of your disbelief

he, however, was saying, unequivocally, without any room for doubt, that god does not exist.

so, i was asking for his proof - cause if he can prove it, we need to contact the newpapers or cnn or something...

Nagel,

I am confused. You don't believe in jesus or you do believe in jesus?

What you see as credence to a story by it being used and repeated for totally different gods in different countries at different times, sometimes thousands of years apart, I see as legends, or myths.

Its like the urban legends that get passed down generation after generation. Its always a similar story with similar characters, just told to have happened last week. No truth to them but people will believe them.

quote:

I find that it adds credence that SOMEthing happened, even if we don't know exactly what.

Exactly. Same here.

Jank,
To me it means that there is and has been one God for all these 'myths'. The circumstances vary to fit the culture.
What ever name you give Him, it is one omnipotent being through the thousands of years that all of mankind has witnessed.
The lesser gods in mythology can easily be the angels and demons of Christianity. You say the similarities make it false. I say it reinforces the event.

pretty much what b50m is saying -

i DO believe in God, and in his son, that we know as jesus.

someone else knows him as Shiva and his son as krishna.. or allah.. yahweh...

but they are all the same people.

i don't think the christian bible holds much water. it has more holes than dick cheny's hunting partner.

but i do think that there is some singular truth, and that all of these myths and legends have that as it's basis.

you see myth and urban legend.. i see origin for many varied stories.

maybe we see it differently because i wish for the idea of a creator to be true, while you wish for it to be all circumstantial happenstance.

i dunno.. i like the idea of magic in the world. i don't want a scientific explanation as to while i love my wife, the color green or why i like sunsets better than sunrises.

i'd rather believe in a creator, and be wrong, and believe that this is all for nothing, all an accident, there is no purpose, and all the effort i've spent trying to make my kids into good people was pointless.

if there is no 'everafter' and no purpose other than this fleeting moment, then why bother? none of it matters. so we can be good people here and now? ok, but why?

i'm not talking about getting in to heaven... what i am saying is that if all we have is this second right now, why not get all you can get and screw everyone else? why bother with teaching your kids anything? you're gonna be dead soon, and there isn't anything afterwards.. the kids can fend for themselves.
why not be bernie madoff? burn other people to make a pile and retire and live large. there are no consequinces, except how you feel abotu yourself. and if it means you get to drive a jag and sip 1200 dollar bottles of wine on your yacht, you'll get used to ignoreing your concious.

why do we strive to better ourselves if there is nothing to better ourselves for?

ah well. i guess i'm just a romantic at heart and it makes me believe that there is a reason we're here. there's a reason my wife and i met. there's a reason we have those two kids when we had them. the reason we better ourselves, is so that we may better our children, and they will better theirs, and eventually we will come to understand God's purpose for us through the use and exploration of the scientific tools he's given us.

if there is no God and no purpose, there is no final understanding at the end. it's a marathon with no ending and no purpose. you just keep running, can never win, can never find the end. so there is no point in anything. no point in learning, no point in expanding. no point in trying.

i believe that god wants us to find the end, win the race and finish the marathon.
i dunno what's there at the end, but it's gonan be good

i don't believe in god because i need there to be a purpose. i believe in a purpose and that leads me to believe in a god.
( plus that other little thing

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
=
maybe we see it differently because i wish for the idea of a creator to be true, while you wish for it to be all circumstantial happenstance.

Nagel, I swear I do not WISH for it to be all circumstantial happenstance. I would love nothing more than to have real proof of a god. I do think it would be awesome to be able to truly believe there is some sort of plan or afterlife. However, I can't suspend all logic and believe these things with the flimsy proof that has been presented to me. I just can't do it. Its not a choice or a wish, its just not in me to believe in something so fanciful. I do have a great imagination..just ask my kids. LOL

quote:

i'd rather believe in a creator, and be wrong, and believe that this is all for nothing, all an accident, there is no purpose, and all the effort i've spent trying to make my kids into good people was pointless.

if there is no 'everafter' and no purpose other than this fleeting moment, then why bother? none of it matters. so we can be good people here and now? ok, but why?

i'm not talking about getting in to heaven... what i am saying is that if all we have is this second right now, why not get all you can get and screw everyone else? why bother with teaching your kids anything? you're gonna be dead soon, and there isn't anything afterwards.. the kids can fend for themselves.
why not be bernie madoff? burn other people to make a pile and retire and live large. there are no consequinces, except how you feel abotu yourself. and if it means you get to drive a jag and sip 1200 dollar bottles of wine on your yacht, you'll get used to ignoreing your concious.

I didn't raise my children in a religious belief at all. I did raise them to be good people, citizens. Why? Because I wanted them to live in a civilized world. I wanted them to be able to get along in society and not end up in jail. I wanted them to help and love their fellowman because in doing so they help themselves. The world would be a horrible place to live in otherwise. I am happy to say that even with out the belief in god, they are happy, well rounded, and good people. My youngest boy is my most active in helping others. He has always had a big heart and great sympathy for those less fortunate. He has been known to give his last dollar to someone who needed it. He scares the poo out of me sometimes, because he has been known to bring strangers home to eat or shower or whatever they needed.

That is the reason we strive to be good people. Can you imagine if everyone just didn't give a crap about anybody but themselves?!?!? This world would be total chaos. I don't need a belief in the hearafter to do good in the here and now. The incentive is a peaceful, happy existance and the furtherance of a better world and civilized society.

You say its not about heaven then why do you do what you do? Why do you teach your children to be good peopl

quote:

why do we strive to better ourselves if there is nothing to better ourselves for?

ah well. i guess i'm just a romantic at heart and it makes me believe that there is a reason we're here. there's a reason my wife and i met. there's a reason we have those two kids when we had them. the reason we better ourselves, is so that we may better our children, and they will better theirs, and eventually we will come to understand God's purpose for us through the use and exploration of the scientific tools he's given us.

if there is no God and no purpose, there is no final understanding at the end. it's a marathon with no ending and no purpose. you just keep running, can never win, can never find the end. so there is no point in anything. no point in learning, no point in expanding. no point in trying.

i believe that god wants us to find the end, win the race and finish the marathon.
i dunno what's there at the end, but it's gonan be good

i don't believe in god because i need there to be a purpose. i believe in a purpose and that leads me to believe in a god.
( plus that other little thing

Of course there are reasons to better ourselves that have nothing to do with god. Why did we put a man on the moon? Did it have to do with believing in god? Why do we have the technology to be discussing this on the internet? It has nothing to do with believing in god. It is to better ourselves as human beings. To advance as much as possible in this short time we each have to live. As someone who doesn't believe there will be anything other than "lights out" when I die, I feel a very strong need to live life to the fullest and learn as much as I can while I can. To pass along as much knowledge to my children and grandchildren as I can before its too late. I want their futures to be bright and for them to one day live in a more peaceful place with less disease and human destruction. These are the reasons for learning, caring, progressing in the here and now. Once again no god needed for this.

I say all that to basically get to this. If it makes you happy and gives you peace then I am glad that you have your belief. You have never been one to push or insist that others believe as you do and I respect you for that. I see nothing wrong with a belief in religion as long as it doesn't get in the way of human advancement or human rights. I do cringe when I hear a child say that "If I do right then god will bring me to heaven." thats a lot of pressure for a child and the fear of the alternative is quite disturbing....or it was for me. Or coming from a COC background the degradation of women, which I have seen you post about your wifes childhood, is something I can't tolerate in religion.

But just a belief in a god and the hereafter is not a bad thing to me. Its just not something I can do without lying to myself. I guess I am just a realist to your romanticist.

And y'all wonder why I love Jank.

3:00?

4:20!


nsns

I love Jank too!

Jank, you asked Nagel, If it's not for Heaven, than why do you do what you do....

Well, I have a say on that- it's not Nagels, its mine, but anyway...

I believe that in this life, we strive to be the best people that we can be- we live to love God, and live to love others by sharing the love of God. Do we need to be Christians to be good, kind, moral people? NO!
But- the joy of celebrating the life and love of Christ is internal, pure joy. I want my kids to feel that joy. When you feel the Hand of God, it is breathtaking. Awesome.

Afterlife- I do believe there is "more to this". I do believe in the end, we will spend eternity in Heaven or Hell. I believe that God loves us, and will give us every opportunity to receive Him. Maybe not in this life, maybe later.
Now, as far as teaching our kids. I believe that JOY comes from loving Jesus, and living a good, Christian life- sharing that love. Is He necessary for joy? no. But I think that He can heighten it.
I believe that Heaven is the best case scenario. I want the best for my kids.
I don't want them to be like me- having to figure things out WAY later- and resenting my parents for not equipping me with knowledge of the Kingdom of God.
I guess you could argue the exact converse.
/shrug
But, as I have said before, Faith and PROOF are counter-intuitive. (in the absence of personal Revelation).
Jank, you are a great person. Truly. I wish you happiness my friend.

I'm rambling. right? yep. It happens a lot. I have GOT to get that fixed.....

quote:

Originally posted by House of David:
From noon onward, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. And about three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"... Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit. Mt. 27

This passage has always bothered me. What is the answer? Why does Jesus think God had forsaken him? Isn't He God, and doesn't He know the answer? Sure he does, so that means that God did forsake Him. Pretty ****ty of God to forsake His own Son/Self.

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:

quote:

Originally posted by thenagel:
=
maybe we see it differently because i wish for the idea of a creator to be true, while you wish for it to be all circumstantial happenstance.

Nagel, I swear I do not WISH for it to be all circumstantial happenstance. I would love nothing more than to have real proof of a god. I do think it would be awesome to be able to truly believe there is some sort of plan or afterlife. However, I can't suspend all logic and believe these things with the flimsy proof that has been presented to me. I just can't do it. Its not a choice or a wish, its just not in me to believe in something so fanciful. I do have a great imagination..just ask my kids. LOL

i dunno.. i don't have to suspend logic. all i have to do is remember that i'm not a super science genius, and that there is a buttload of stuff that i simply don't understand.
so i keep my options open.. suspension of disbelief, i think it's called. just because i don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't possible.

quote:

i'd rather believe in a creator, and be wrong, and believe that this is all for nothing, all an accident, there is no purpose, and all the effort i've spent trying to make my kids into good people was pointless.


You say its not about heaven then why do you do what you do? Why do you teach your children to be good peopl

because i do believe in an eventuality. one day, we WILL understand what it's all for.. what the purpose is.. the reason for it all. which means we must continue on until we get there.
if there really was no point, no eventuality, no reason.... no final goal for humanity( in this life, not in the hereafter) then nothing would matter. if their life means nothing besides the the few decades they are alive.. why, in the long run, does it matter if my kids are good people or not?
if tomorrow is insignificant, why does it matter if there is one?

if there is an end game, then how my kids behave is relevent... because otherwise they might not be a part of it what worthwhile woman or man is going to pair up with a couple of usless gits who are only out for themselves? where are the children of dillenger and capone? how many kids did bonnie and clyde pop out? i want mine to help continute the race, so i teach them to be good people.

their state of grace, the destiny of their soul is all up to them. none of my business, once the basic knowledge is laid. i give them the info.. what they do with it as adults isn't my business. but it's my job to see that they help carry the human race one more step closer to the final ultimate purpose for our existance. one step closer to finisheing the marathon.

quote:

why do we strive to better ourselves if there is nothing to better ourselves for?

ah well. i guess i'm just a romantic at heart and it makes me believe that there is a reason we're here. there's a reason my wife and i met. there's a reason we have those two kids when we had them. the reason we better ourselves, is so that we may better our children, and they will better theirs, and eventually we will come to understand God's purpose for us through the use and exploration of the scientific tools he's given us.

if there is no God and no purpose, there is no final understanding at the end. it's a marathon with no ending and no purpose. you just keep running, can never win, can never find the end. so there is no point in anything. no point in learning, no point in expanding. no point in trying.

i believe that god wants us to find the end, win the race and finish the marathon.
i dunno what's there at the end, but it's gonan be good

i don't believe in god because i need there to be a purpose. i believe in a purpose and that leads me to believe in a god.
( plus that other little thing

Of course there are reasons to better ourselves that have nothing to do with god. Why did we put a man on the moon? Did it have to do with believing in god? Why do we have the technology to be discussing this on the internet? It has nothing to do with believing in god. It is to better ourselves as human beings. To advance as much as possible in this short time we each have to live. As someone who doesn't believe there will be anything other than "lights out" when I die, I feel a very strong need to live life to the fullest and learn as much as I can while I can. To pass along as much knowledge to my children and grandchildren as I can before its too late. I want their futures to be bright and for them to one day live in a more peaceful place with less disease and human destruction. These are the reasons for learning, caring, progressing in the here and now. Once again no god needed for this.

[/QUOTE]

as someone who does believe.... but didn't used to.. .i remember the feeling of not believing. i remember believing that what i did now doesn't matter except for this exact minute, because there were no consequinces.
i don't mean morality.... not really.. sure, i didn't think there was any ultimate punishement for roaming around and shooting people in the head... but i refrained because i wasn't willing to accept the reprecussions here and now. also, because it was rude and there was no reason to roam around shooting people.
if there is no tomorrow... if there is no end all be all goal ... some final evoloution for humanity, then why does it matter what your kids or their kids know? nothign will ever come from it. we have a short shot at learnign something, and adding to the collective knowledge of mankind...for the use of our decendants tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.
if there is no tomorrow... why does it matter? if this is all there is, why bother taking one more step? you won't know any difference.. niether will any kids. so say they have a few peices of data now that we didn't as kids.
so what? the new data won't matter because we're only on an endless treadmill with no goal. it never stops. we never get anyplace, just keep running in one spot.

so what's the point in taking one more step?
this is the chain of thought that almost put a bullet in my head in my early 20's - the idea that everything was pointless and made no difference - there was no god, no way to win, no end game.

no purpose. no reason to even wake up again.

course, i found a reason a couple years after rock bottom. (married her later )
it all went up hill after that, and then one day outta the blue i got clobbered wiht the God hammer...
oddly enough, it didn't involve the judgemental i'm better that you are poker.

quote:

But just a belief in a god and the hereafter is not a bad thing to me. Its just not something I can do without lying to myself. I guess I am just a realist to your romanticist.

i have no use for religion.
religion destroys lives and whole cultures.

faith has nothing to do with religion anymore.

faith moves mountains.... religion destroys buildings.


i used to think the same thing. Pff.. it's all BS.. no way i could ever believe in any of that crap without convincing myself to believe in a lie. i have to much pride and self respect to allow myself to be suckered into such silly fantasies. i'm far to self-aware and intellegent to ever be taken in by this stuff.. even i don't have the power to fool myself into believing such retarded ideas.

when all it turns out to be is that i had to much pride to admit to myself that perhaps i was wrong from the word Go, and maybe i should open myself to possibilities that i couldn't understand or explain. maybe i didn't know everything there was to know, so i should keep my eyes open for something that give me new info.

it turned out to be my ears, but the point remains the same.

i don't judge people, except for what i know about them, and how it relates to what i know of them. i'm no better than anyone else. i'm no worse than them either.
i react harshly to people who are willing to assume they are better than i am. more enlightened... more intellegent... more open minded... more spiritual, more Godly, more correct.
we are all the same, in so many ways. i am who i am, i'm not better that you, or NSNS or bill or anyone else. i don't pretend to be. i'm just who i am, and i make no apologies for who i am.... and i don't ask anyone else to pretend to be anytign they are not, nor to apologize for that either.

i judged Bill to be a horrible human being and a horrible example of godliness. to that end, i told him exactly what i thought about him, and i put him on ignore and shuffled him out of my life. end of problem. end of judgement.
i can't make any comment about what he will or will not have to cope with after death. i have my opinion, but it's more of a guess than a judgement.

You? i dunno. i won't pretend to. you're a good person here, and you tend to not insult most of us who have belief.... tho.. i gotta say... the last little while... while most of us believer types try to extend the utmost courtesy and respect for all people.. it's seemed like there is less and less courtesy going the other direction...

we were all good, and a few new people wander in, and the balance shifts... there was us... and there was bill. now a couple people are wedging between the believing us and the not believing us... but there is still bill.

figures. just liek in politics.. we all atart to get along, peacefully, and a few polarizing personalities speak up and wreck all of it.
this is part of hte reason i've been semi-absent the last little while. we all got along.... now that started to fall apart.. so i been staying out of it.
and at this point i'm to tired to really even care enough to bother with it farther.

Nagel,

I truly do not wish to make you feel as though I am here to start trouble between the 2 differing groups. I really believe that we can all live in the world together and strive to make it better.

It just seems that we atheist are expected to not give our full views on these subjects. If we do then we are some how putting down or stirring up trouble with the believers. I am a very frank and honest person. I have gotten into trouble many many times because of that. Sometimes I ask questions or make statements that others take as an insult or that I am being oppositional, when in my mind I am simply asking a question because I want to understand where that person is coming from or what their views are. When I answered your question about the many versions of gods that were very similar to jesus, that are now considered to be myths, I never intended for you to be insulted or feel that I was in any way trying to polarize the 2 sides (believers/nonbelievers)

It really shocked me to see you say that without god you couldn't see any reason to raise your children to be good people or that without god you didn't see any reason why you shouldn't go around shooting people in the head. This is a very strange way of thinking to me. Maybe I am the one that is different, but the reasons I don't go around shooting people are many and varied. One would be that it would end a life that mattered deeply to that person and probably many more. To take a life is wrong on many levels. None of which have anything to do with god or an afterlife for me.

If having a belief in god gives you purpose and solace then I am very happy you have that belief. As someone who came from a religious background myself I felt the same way when I was able to let go of (what I believe) is a fable. It felt good to know that I had control of my own destiny. I felt a burden lifted off of me. Not so I could go around and murder and thieve my fellow man, that had nothing to do with it, but to finally make sense of all the backwards, misconceptions I had been taught and believed in, gave me great peace and happiness.

To each his own my friend. Please be as tolerant of us atheist as we strive to be with you believers. I respect you, VP, b50m, Crusty, O No, and the list could go on. However I do have my own views and opinions that matter greatly to me, so I would appreciate the same consideration. When you say that without a god what would be the point in doing good, or taking that 2nd step....well I have to answer that. As someone who lives it I feel the need to tell you how those of us without god work to make the world a better place everyday.

I have great hopes and dreams for my children. I hope that my oldest goes on to do what he wants to with his degree in Bio/Chemistry. He wants to find cures and find new medications or treatments for the terminally ill. I hope that my daughter is a success in her endeavor to be a psychiatrist. She has a great way of looking at life and truly wants to help the mentally ill. I hope that my youngest doesn't get himself shot one day by picking up a homeless person, but instead makes a difference in the lives of the less fortunate. By doing these things I feel that their contribution to this world will be very worthwhile. I don't believe it is all for nothing. What they do in this life time will effect many lives in the future. That is their goals, hopes and dreams as well as mine.

quote:

To each his own my friend. Please be as tolerant of us atheist as we strive to be with you believers.

I'm good with that if you 'atheists' agree to stop calling 'faith folks' crazy!

Deal?

quote:

Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Nagel,

I truly do not wish to make you feel as though I am here to start trouble between the 2 differing groups. I really believe that we can all live in the world together and strive to make it better.

i hope you read this before begining your sabbatical.

i did NOT mean you. you're one of the ones i always got along with... one of the ones i always felt it wasn't necessary to argue with or try to bring you round to my point of view.. we just agreed to disagree, while understanding and respecting each others differences.
you're one of the good ones
i don't think i've ever felt insulted or looked-down-upon by anything you ever wrote.. and if i did it turned out to be my mistake in reading somthign that wasn't intended.

quote:

It really shocked me to see you say that without god you couldn't see any reason to raise your children to be good people or that without god you didn't see any reason why you shouldn't go around shooting people in the head. This is a very strange way of thinking to me. Maybe I am the one that is different, but the reasons I don't go around shooting people are many and varied. One would be that it would end a life that mattered deeply to that person and probably many more. To take a life is wrong on many levels. None of which have anything to do with god or an afterlife for me.

aye.. that's what i said... it would be rude and it would involve reprecussions here and now that i wouldn't be willing to accept. at least i think that's what i said...
i said there would be no 'ultimate punishment' and, without a God, there would not be.. but that doesn't mean it's a good idea for a fun way to spend the weekend.
yes, it would indeed be wrong. but if there is no afterlife - no ending goal - no point or purpose to our existance, it's really no more significant that stepping on a bug, philosophically speaking. it's still very rude, and mean, but so what? so is kicking a puppy.

i'm not saying that we should all run out and start shooting people and kicking puppies. i'm not saying that if we were to suddenly be given proof of the nonentity of god we would all start murdering people left and right. i'm only saying that without a god there is no 'ultimate punishment' for the people that do.
it means that in the end adoplf hitler and mother theresa and gehingis khan and mahatma ghandi all got the same reward for their very different outlook on how a persons life should be spent.
it means, to me, that it doesn't matter how you spend your life or what you do with it, the end result is the same. saddam hussien and pope john paul have the same reward.
so why not be bernie madoff? he didn't kill anyone, he just swindled a lot of money out of rich people. but then he got greedy and started taking money from poor people as well.
so as long as you don't get greedy and end up caught liek he did, what's the problem? if he had just quit with a couple hundred billion, he could have retired to another country and been living the high life, and never had to worry about anything again.
i admit - if i didn't believe, i wouldn't be doing anything differently right now. i wouldn't start killin and thieving and all that. but it'd be cause i'm to purty to go to prison, not because i thought it was a bad thng to do.


i'm not sure i'm explaining this right - not sure i'm getting my point across. i just re-read what i wrote and it isn't saying what i want it to.
God, at this time, RIGHT NOW, isn't relevent. he isn't watching all our petty little lives whisk by. he isn't guiding us step by step in every little thing we do.
even heaven and hell aren't a factor in my mind.
in my mind... i believe there is a goal. a final ultimate point of evoloution. somethign we, as a species, are growing towards. everythign we do now, to make our selves stronger and better and faster and smarter and quicker and kinder and so on and so on... every little thing we do takes us just a little closer to that end result. we stop learning and growing and teaching the next generations, and the race to that goal slows down. when we push our children to grow and learn and strive, the race goes faster.
i teach my kids so that i, and they, and their kids, etc, can be a part of that end goal.
i think heaven and hell are side tracks, more or less, way stations on the path to the end. you try and screw up the race, boom, you get dumped south. you try and do your best to forward progress, boom, up elevator. but neither hell nor heaven are the final goal. or at least, they aren't to me.
it would be hard for me... indeed.. it WAS hard for me, when i saw humanity as a pointless mistake.

quote:

It felt good to know that I had control of my own destiny.

maybe that's a good way to say it -
destiny. with a creator, we HAVE a destiny.. a purpose.
without one, there is no destiny. no goal. we're just spinning our wheels. if all we have is right now, then why not make the best of it - why worry about tomorrow?

quote:

To each his own my friend. Please be as tolerant of us atheist as we strive to be with you believers. I respect you, VP, b50m, Crusty, O No, and the list could go on. However I do have my own views and opinions that matter greatly to me, so I would appreciate the same consideration.

i'd never want otherwise. i'm not here to convince anyone of anything.

many times you or billy joe have used sweeping comments about believers in general, sometimes insulting, often implying that because we DO believe, we are incapable of rational thought.

however, because i've been here a while, i'm pretty sure when you guys say things like that you aren't including me and veep and several others - we've made it clear that we've given the issue much thought and we aren't just sheeple, believing because we are told to believe.

in the same vein, it's clear that you and billy joe aren't just anti-sheeple, disbelieving because you find most 'christians' to be horrible hideous human beings, or because you think you are far to smart to be tricked by fairy tales.
you have given the issue great consideration and spilled gallons of skullsweat over the issue... so in doing that you are worthy and due respect as well.


when i say something like this, i meant ME.
i can't speak about things from any other point of view than my own.
i certainly can't tell you how you ought to feel or think, i cna only say how it feels to me.
i'm glad you feel the way you do... that you see reasons to continue to grow and learn and teach, of being good for the sake of being good, with no ending in sight, no purpose. no reasons for your or your kids existance.

all that means is that you're a better person than i am.
( ps.. that's not hard. i'm really not a very nice guy)

for me... all the things you said you wished for your kids and their future... i want the same things... because i DO believe there is a reason for it all.
because i believe we are more than just a big cosmic oops.

you see it as being in control of your destiny and your future.
i see it as the removal of destiny, and negating any purpose for a future.
the only time i ever felt as tho i was not in control of my own destiny, was when i felt like there wasn't a destiny to be in control of.

fortunatly, i believe that there is a purpose behind our existance, so in the long run we both get what we want you get to be in control of your destiny.. and i get to believe that we have one, so it's all good.