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quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
I don't think God knows how each test subject will do, that's free will again. If it was predetermined, that would be the Calvinist viewpoint.
I don't think God watches every single person every day for 24 hours, He could but He doesn't need to.


Quotation:
"God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal ****ation. " John Calvin

P: This stands for "Perseverance of the saints:" This is the "Once saved, always saved" belief -- that everyone who has been saved will remain in that state. God will begin and continue a process of sanctification which will continue until they reach heaven. None are lost; it is impossible for them to lose their salvation.


Free will has nothing to do with what God already knows. Free will just means we have the choice to accept or reject him...but he still knows the outcome.

So you're saying he knows the outcome of some situations but not others? How can that be if God is omnipotent and created everything about us?

From the Bible (NIV):

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

This passage - often cited by the pro-lifers - says God knew us before the womb. So God knew me as far back as before I was in the womb, before I could speak or had a personality. He created the earth, the trees, the humans, the animals, the water, etc., etc. He knows the date He's coming back for us (not even Jesus knows that), but he doesn't know "how each test subject will do"? What?
Last edited by Buttercup
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
I don't think God knows how each test subject will do, that's free will again. If it was predetermined, that would be the Calvinist viewpoint.
I don't think God watches every single person every day for 24 hours, He could but He doesn't need to.



See.... i *like* that. i don't know if it's the right answer, but it's an answer.

here's somethign i think might be possible -
(hardcore fans of the bible won't like this, for it suggests that god might not be 100% perfect - but i'm not saying i believe it, it's just a possibility that floats in my head in the ' i wonder' file)

what if God did set the tree there as a test... one that he hoped adam and eve WOULD fail?
think about this -
the bible says adam was the first man, and eve the first woman. it does NOT say that they were the first humanoid creatues god created.
what if there were other attempts to create humanity, but they all failed, because of a lack of 'free will' ?
what if the forbidden tree was a test to see if He had finally achieved a creature with free will at last?
he put the tree down, and said No. and by being tempted to eat the fruit, we passed the test.
so, god moved us out of Beta testing in the garden, gave them the ability to reproduce to start making people 2.0, and to remove the pair from the tree of everlasting life?
once we passed the test ( by failing) he didn't want us to be immortal.

so that'd would mean that being thrown out fo the garden wasn't acctually punishment, it was the grand prize - but at the time if FELT like punishment to those two, so that's the way it was written. what if 'Original Sin" is really 'Original Win!"* and we've been torturing ourselves this whole time for nothing?

it makes me wonder, how many planets out there are filled with other perfectly human shaped animals, only devoid of free will? sheep milling about all day, doing only as they are instructed to, minute by minute.

or maybe it was all right here on earth, and those are the other humanoid fossils found all over the place.
technically, the garden of eden held adam and eve, the first man and woman. because, without free will, none of the other creations were 'man' - they were just another bipedal animal. so god left them alone, to do the best they could at evoloution, and over the eons they failed and died out, leaving only adam's kind. i'm sure there was some interbreeding - there are people out there now that look more cro-magnon than human Smiler that could also explain why some people seems to be more inclined to be sheep-like, and just follow along as they are told.
maybe there was the garden of avalon, the garden of babel, the garden of clementine (full of citrus fruit, for some reason), the garden of ducks, and the garden of eden.. and we only know about the last one because that was the one that held the successful experiment...

just a thought.

*copyright applied for.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
Free will has nothing to do with what God already knows. Free will just means we have the choice to accept or reject him...but he still knows the outcome.

So you're saying he knows the outcome of some situations but not others? How can that be if God is omnipotent and created everything about us?

From the Bible (King James Version):

9) But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10) I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

These passages - often cited by the pro-lifers - suggest God knew us in the womb. So God knew me as far back as in the womb, before I could speak or had a personality. He created the earth, the trees, the humans, the animals, the water, etc., etc. He knows the date He's coming back for us (not even Jesus knows that), but he doesn't know "how each test subject will do"? What?


i think i see what b50m meant...
just because he CAN know everything, doesn't means he CHOOSES to know everything.

you CAN know what's in each box under the christmas tree, but you choose not to, until it's time. you could easily find out what's coming up in your fav TV show, by checking the spoiler sites in the net. you cna know the ending of the book by reading the last chapter first.
but you don't.

i've long believed that the idea of knowing absoloutly everything that is, was, or ever shall be would be horrible.
sure, i'd make a ton of money on the lotteries and horse tracks and casinos for a couple years. but then imagine spending the next 40 years knowing everything that would happen every second of every day, everywhere on earth.
you could make insane money. you could save lives by the billions.
but you would be bored to tears for the rest of your life.
now, imagine the same thing, only for Eternity.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
Free will has nothing to do with what God already knows. Free will just means we have the choice to accept or reject him...but he still knows the outcome.

So you're saying he knows the outcome of some situations but not others? How can that be if God is omnipotent and created everything about us?

From the Bible (King James Version):

9) But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10) I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

These passages - often cited by the pro-lifers - suggest God knew us in the womb. So God knew me as far back as in the womb, before I could speak or had a personality. He created the earth, the trees, the humans, the animals, the water, etc., etc. He knows the date He's coming back for us (not even Jesus knows that), but he doesn't know "how each test subject will do"? What?


i think i see what b50m meant...
just because he CAN know everything, doesn't means he CHOOSES to know everything.

you CAN know what's in each box under the christmas tree, but you choose not to, until it's time. you could easily find out what's coming up in your fav TV show, by checking the spoiler sites in the net. you cna know the ending of the book by reading the last chapter first.
but you don't.

i've long believed that the idea of knowing absoloutly everything that is, was, or ever shall be would be horrible.
sure, i'd make a ton of money on the lotteries and horse tracks and casinos for a couple years. but then imagine spending the next 40 years knowing everything that would happen every second of every day, everywhere on earth.
you could make insane money. you could save lives by the billions.
but you would be bored to tears for the rest of your life.
now, imagine the same thing, only for Eternity.


This is not possible. If you know everything and you created everything, there is no choosing to ignore part of it. If you know, you know. If God is powerful enough and capable of knowing us from before the womb, then He's powerful and capable enough to know everything.

Something to consider....

I think you're like me, nagel, in that you believe you can ask God for forgiveness...just between you and Him, or you can ask Him to make your sick baby well, etc...again, just between you and Him (no priest, pastor, etc.).

And let's say you're a life-long atheist and have a lightbulb moment one day...something convinces you God does exist. So, by yours and b50m's argument, God could choose not to hear the prayer...to know you've accepted Him.

He can also choose not to hear the prayer for your baby to get well, etc. See what I'm saying? If He's omnipotent and one can pray to Him at any time, He's got to be available to choose to hear it and know about it 100% of the time.

If he can be available for prayer 24/7, why can't he know our outcomes?

Oh, and I cited the wrong Bible passage in my last post. I did go back and edit. Unfortunately, this back-pew-cut-up didn't pay very much attention to the Bible and now has to google everything.

(Geez, it's too late in the evening to be having this kind of conversation.)
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:

quote:
i think i see what b50m meant...
just because he CAN know everything, doesn't means he CHOOSES to know everything.

you CAN know what's in each box under the christmas tree, but you choose not to, until it's time. you could easily find out what's coming up in your fav TV show, by checking the spoiler sites in the net. you cna know the ending of the book by reading the last chapter first.
but you don't.

i've long believed that the idea of knowing absoloutly everything that is, was, or ever shall be would be horrible.
sure, i'd make a ton of money on the lotteries and horse tracks and casinos for a couple years. but then imagine spending the next 40 years knowing everything that would happen every second of every day, everywhere on earth.
you could make insane money. you could save lives by the billions.
but you would be bored to tears for the rest of your life.
now, imagine the same thing, only for Eternity.


This is not possible. If you know everything and you created everything, there is no choosing to ignore part of it. If you know, you know. If God is powerful enough and capable of knowing us from before the womb, then He's powerful and capable enough to know everything.

Something to consider....

I think you're like me, nagel, in that you believe you can ask God for forgiveness...just between you and Him, or you can ask Him to make your sick baby well, etc...again, just between you and Him (no priest, pastor, etc.).

And let's say you're a life-long atheist and have a lightbulb moment one day...something convinces you God does exist. So, by yours and b50m's argument, God could choose not to hear the prayer...to know you've accepted Him.

He can also choose not to hear the prayer for your baby to get well, etc. See what I'm saying? If He's omnipotent and one can pray to Him at any time, He's got to be available to choose to hear it and know about it 100% of the time.

If he can be available for prayer 24/7, why can't he know our outcomes?

Oh, and I cited the wrong Bible passage in my last post. I did go back and edit. Unfortunately, this back-pew-cut-up didn't pay very much attention to the Bible and now has to google everything.

(Geez, it's too late in the evening to be having this kind of conversation.)


Hmm.
ok, you're right, that's a toughie.
i'm not ready to dismiss the idea just yet, but your point has serious weight Smiler

alright. how about this -
lets say i have the fianancial spending record for the state of alabama in a database on my computer.
( i don't. jeez, who'd want to?)
but.. because i have instant access to it, i *know* everything that alabama spent money on last year. i don't KNOW the individual facts until i open the file and look it up, tho.

God knows my life, every second of it. but maybe he doesn't KNOW my life until he has a cause to open my personnel file, so to speak.

like 2 seperate modes of conciousness. one for the day to day hum drum, the other for pertinent details, that he doesn't access until it's needed?
i'm not trying to say he isn't capable of knowing it all, just that perhaps he chooses not to know something until he needs to know it.
right now at 3am, i don't have a need to know the oil level in my wife's honda. tomorrow before we go anywhere i need to know it, so i'll check it.
right now He doesn't need to know who.. uhm. .what bill clinton is doing. when he needs to know, he'll look and he'll know.
Nothing is hidden from God's eye - but maybe he isn't always looking at everything all at once.
/shrug - just a thought.

but in the meantime, a prayer is like an email or an IM. you know, dingdingdingDINGding BZZZZZZ all in your face. His face.
i think He does answer prayers, but for reasons we'll never understand, he doesn't always give us what we ask for.

i used to pray for children when i was married to my first wife. the prayer was never answered with a child. today, i give him thanks for knowing what i needed and ignoreing what i wanted Smiler sometimes he has answered what i wanted by giving it to me, and when i ended up burnt, i could imagine Him saying "ok.. how about you let ME drive from now on?" so now when i pray i just go with "please give me the things you want me to have, and thanks for all the things you've given me" (phrased in various ways, so neither of us get bored with it)

and you're right. i am a lot like you in that repsect. matthew 6:5+, starting after the begats, is one part of the bible that really does connect inside me. not the begats. who cares? Smiler

i think most of the bible is just empty words. morality tales and threats to keep people in line, kings and priests using god's name to add weight to their desires.

but some of it rings true, some of it makes sence, some of it really *feels* like the word of god. primarily the 4 gospels. most of the rest just comes across as the authors opinion. says Paul of the wonderful state of marriage - ' it's better to marry than to burn.' meaning ' you really ought to spend your life chaste and pure, but if you're just to weak to do that, get married first.' yeah. great wise holy man. pffft. a far cry from being joined as one flesh, being fruitful and having little fruits.

the first bit of matthew is like that for me. it really has the flavor of god in the words, if that makes any sence?

anyway. your right, it's late.
My take on all of your ideas, (nagel, butter), is that while God can know everything, He does wait for a request as nagel said.
He can also choose to not grant a prayer since He can literally see into the future and may decide what you want now will conflict with something later. So you may get a 'no' answer.

I like the idea of the files nagel. A good way to look at it. There is also the unexpected. I don't think God is watching to see if you fall in the bathtub or slip on a banana peel. Sometimes, it's just feces happens.

We are not robots or clones or dolls. We can start to do something and change our minds in a second. And don't forget that while God is there and watching over us as a whole, Satan is needling and worming his way into us little by little. God touches the head, Satan the heel.

Those moments when you want to cuss out someone or slap someone is Satan having a little fun. When you do a double-take and decide 'no that would be stupid', that is God's word touching you.

I see God as helping us deal with the big stuff, we deal with the little stuff.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buttercup:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thenagel:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Buttercup:
i think i see what b50m meant...
just because he CAN know everything, doesn't means he CHOOSES to know everything.

you CAN know what's in each box under the christmas tree, but you choose not to, until it's time. you could easily find out what's coming up in your fav TV show, by checking the spoiler sites in the net. you cna know the ending of the book by reading the last chapter first.
but you don't.

Buttercup, I can also see what b50 meant, and maybe Jesus, who never stopped
instructing, elevated the Father. While Jesus was on earth he was always
him the highest title. I think one of his best examples was praying to the Father.
If Jesus will do this, who is it that can't?
Okay, but what's the point? Why create people and put them on earth, then just be nothing more than a careless landlord? I don't care about the condition of the rented house day-to-day, but call me if the roof leaks?

I'm not buying it. If He's Alpha and Omega, went through the trouble of creating such a huge universe with complicated contents, He should know all at all times - that includes outcomes.

Either way, there's no point to human existence on Earth. If He loves us, then He should have just skipped the pointless Earth test and we should have all been born in heaven.
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
Okay, but what's the point? Why create people and put them on earth, then just be nothing more than a careless landlord? I don't care about the condition of the rented house day-to-day, but call me if the roof leaks?

I'm not buying it. If He's Alpha and Omega, went through the trouble of creating such a huge universe with complicated contents, He should know all at all times - that includes outcomes.

Either way, there's no point to human existence on Earth. If He loves us, then He should have just skipped the pointless Earth test and we should have all been born in heaven.


With all my love and respect, Buttercup, i disagree with that part wholeheartedly.

i believe almost exactly the opposite.

if He were to watch every move of every person, ever second , and guide our every steps based on his intimate knowledge of the future, that to me is what would remove the purpose for our existance.
if he's watching everything, knowing what will happen second to second, then what's the point of having made us to start with?
not just , why didn't he create us already in heaven, but why bother at all?
think abotu the old video games. take pac-man for example.
99 percent of them were all based on pre-progammed movements, pac man included.

all you had to do was play it enough to memorize the set patterns of the ghosts to beat the game. eventually people played enough to do exactly that, and then people stopped playing pac man. there was no point. they knew every move that winky, blinky, pinky and fred were goign to make, they knew the final outcome. why bother.
it became boring and pointless.

nowadays the most popular games have the capability of generateing random moves and patterns so you never know exactly what your going to get from minute to minute. we no longer know the outcome for certain, and people keep on playing those games.

so that's it. god is pac man.
ok, no that wasn't really my point Smiler.

ok. i'm sorry. i have a 3 year old here who had to have me explain all ofthe zombies and plants in the popcap game plants vs/ zombies, and my train of thought has completly derailed..

ok.

i don't see a careless landlord. think more of a project manager. he sets us parameters and goals, and except for spot checks, one inspection, and one reorganization, and a few departmental changes (that time he redacted both the sodom and gomorrah divisions) he pretty much lets us run with the project as we see fit.
he figured out early on that micromanagement is counter-productive, so he did one last inspection and retask, and then left us to get on with it.

ok. the wife just handed me a huge hunk of watermelon. i have to much going on here to give this the attention you deserve in response, so i'm gonan stop and come back later.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
Okay, but what's the point? Why create people and put them on earth, then just be nothing more than a careless landlord? I don't care about the condition of the rented house day-to-day, but call me if the roof leaks?

I'm not buying it. If He's Alpha and Omega, went through the trouble of creating such a huge universe with complicated contents, He should know all at all times - that includes outcomes.

Either way, there's no point to human existence on Earth. If He loves us, then He should have just skipped the pointless Earth test and we should have all been born in heaven.


With all my love and respect, Buttercup, i disagree with that part wholeheartedly.

i believe almost exactly the opposite.

if He were to watch every move of every person, ever second , and guide our every steps based on his intimate knowledge of the future, that to me is what would remove the purpose for our existance.
if he's watching everything, knowing what will happen second to second, then what's the point of having made us to start with?
not just , why didn't he create us already in heaven, but why bother at all?
think abotu the old video games. take pac-man for example.
99 percent of them were all based on pre-progammed movements, pac man included.

all you had to do was play it enough to memorize the set patterns of the ghosts to beat the game. eventually people played enough to do exactly that, and then people stopped playing pac man. there was no point. they knew every move that winky, blinky, pinky and fred were goign to make, they knew the final outcome. why bother.
it became boring and pointless.

nowadays the most popular games have the capability of generateing random moves and patterns so you never know exactly what your going to get from minute to minute. we no longer know the outcome for certain, and people keep on playing those games.

so that's it. god is pac man.
ok, no that wasn't really my point Smiler.

ok. i'm sorry. i have a 3 year old here who had to have me explain all ofthe zombies and plants in the popcap game plants vs/ zombies, and my train of thought has completly derailed..

ok.

i don't see a careless landlord. think more of a project manager. he sets us parameters and goals, and except for spot checks, one inspection, and one reorganization, and a few departmental changes (that time he redacted both the sodom and gomorrah divisions) he pretty much lets us run with the project as we see fit.
he figured out early on that micromanagement is counter-productive, so he did one last inspection and retask, and then left us to get on with it.

ok. the wife just handed me a huge hunk of watermelon. i have to much going on here to give this the attention you deserve in response, so i'm gonan stop and come back later.


Well as long as your response includes all your love and respect, all I can do is accept. (Stop being so darn nice!) Smiler

And all this discussion about watermelon is actually making me thirsty - not hungry, thirsty. Confused Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:

Well as long as your response includes all your love and respect, all I can do is accept. (Stop being so darn nice!) Smiler

can't help it. you bring out the nice in me Smiler
quote:


And all this discussion about watermelon is actually making me thirsty - not hungry, thirsty. Confused Big Grin


it was an awfully good watermelon. Razzer

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