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5 peices for a quarter....

thenagelthenagelPost Master
I figure the title of the thread really doesn't matter much, because if it follows the other threads in this forum, after the first page or two, it will no longer bare any similarity to the subject heading anyway.


This thread is tasked to answer 2 questions I've brought up in the past and have yet to recieve an answer for, of any kind.

Question One:

Someone said recently that God cannot abide the presence of Sin, so we must be washed clean of it e're we enter heaven.
OK. Fine.
My question is - if God so hates sin that He cannot be near it, why did He create it?
OR, being all powerful, why did He allow it's creation?


Question Two:
Since God is all powerful and all knowing, why did He place the Tree of the Knowledge of Good an Evil in the garden?
If He is all knowing, then He knew the outcome beforehand, so that means He set them up.
Doesn't it?

Answer either, or both, or neither, as it suits you.
These are just a couple of the major sticking points for me when it comes to accepting that the bible is the literal inerrant word of God.
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GC Gifted ChildHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
I figure the title of the thread really doesn't matter much, because if it follows the other threads in this forum, after the first page or two, it will no longer bare any similarity to the subject heading anyway.


This thread is tasked to answer 2 questions I've brought up in the past and have yet to recieve an answer for, of any kind.

Question One:

Someone said recently that God cannot abide the presence of Sin, so we must be washed clean of it e're we enter heaven.
OK. Fine.
My question is - if God so hates sin that He cannot be near it, why did He create it?
OR, being all powerful, why did He allow it's creation?


Question Two:
Since God is all powerful and all knowing, why did He place the Tree of the Knowledge of Good an Evil in the garden?
If He is all knowing, then He knew the outcome beforehand, so that means He set them up.
Doesn't it?

Answer either, or both, or neither, as it suits you.
These are just a couple of the major sticking points for me when it comes to accepting that the bible is the literal inerrant word of God.


God could have created all drones,proves nothin. God didn't create sin or death,we did
the world is a test and we have free will. You can fail the test so bad you lose for
good. everyone has the same change. The more information you refuse,the harder it is
to understand whats got to be done. God wants your faith,your love from your heart
on your own. someone puts a gun to your head your'll say ok. God wants the real you.
Bait car is a set up, but they still have a choice. If you have sin on your soul when
you die you will atone for it before you enter heaven.
ferrelljferrelljOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
I figure the title of the thread really doesn't matter much, because if it follows the other threads in this forum, after the first page or two, it will no longer bare any similarity to the subject heading anyway.


This thread is tasked to answer 2 questions I've brought up in the past and have yet to recieve an answer for, of any kind.

Question One:

Someone said recently that God cannot abide the presence of Sin, so we must be washed clean of it e're we enter heaven.
OK. Fine.
My question is - if God so hates sin that He cannot be near it, why did He create it?
OR, being all powerful, why did He allow it's creation?


Question Two:
Since God is all powerful and all knowing, why did He place the Tree of the Knowledge of Good an Evil in the garden?
If He is all knowing, then He knew the outcome beforehand, so that means He set them up.
Doesn't it?

Answer either, or both, or neither, as it suits you.
These are just a couple of the major sticking points for me when it comes to accepting that the bible is the literal inerrant word of God.


If you have to be clean from sin to get into heaven it won't have to be very big.
paw-pawpaw-pawHall of Famer
I would also like to know the answer to question two of nagle's post. You don't have to prove it with pages of useless information. Just give your honest opinion. If you have info to back it up, that's OK too. Just a simple answer for the question, "why did God put the tree of knowledge in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it?" Anyone?
GC Gifted ChildHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by paw-paw:
I would also like to know the answer to question two of nagle's post. You don't have to prove it with pages of useless information. Just give your honest opinion. If you have info to back it up, that's OK too. Just a simple answer for the question, "why did God put the tree of knowledge in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it?" Anyone?


I believe it would be to test you. To see if your'll going to keep the laws he states.
If you can't get aroung the first tree without stealing a apple thats not a good sign.
Adam and didn't do it. the better the person, the higher place in heaven. It's hard
because the reward is so great. We have no ideal. To create us without free will
would be the same stupid day, day after day. Bjbg might could pick it up. God wants
your true nature, good or bad. Growing up in your home when very young is a place
where your free will not wanted. Can you see the difference in two?
GC Gifted ChildHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by ferrellj:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thenagel:
Question One:

Someone said recently that God cannot abide the presence of Sin, so we must be washed clean of it e're we enter heaven.
OK. Fine.
My question is - if God so hates sin that He cannot be near it, why did He create it?
OR, being all powerful, why did He allow it's creation?

If you have to be clean from sin to get into heaven it won't have to be very big.


God didn't create sin, we did and death. we lost our immortally,so we have death.
Heaven will be big. someone dies with sin will go to holding cell, a little like
hell. In the bible Jesus says your will repay every cent. There is a lot more
said about this in the bible.
b50mb50mOld Faithful
My opinion only.

Yes, God was testing Adam and Eve's ability to resist temptation. He also knew they would fail, otherwise the human race would not commence. So we are a test case. An experiment. Those who follow the rules get the reward.

As for sin, man created sin by being a greedy, selfish, lustful, arrogant, prideful being. That was also planned.

Now to really stir things up, why did God put the Tree of Life (Immortality) in the garden and not care if they ate of it or not? Which, of course, they didn't.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by paw-paw:
I would also like to know the answer to question two of nagle's post. You don't have to prove it with pages of useless information. Just give your honest opinion. If you have info to back it up, that's OK too. Just a simple answer for the question, "why did God put the tree of knowledge in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it?" Anyone?


I believe it would be to test you. To see if your'll going to keep the laws he states.
If you can't get aroung the first tree without stealing a apple thats not a good sign.
Adam and didn't do it. the better the person, the higher place in heaven. It's hard
because the reward is so great. We have no ideal. To create us without free will
would be the same stupid day, day after day. Bjbg might could pick it up. God wants
your true nature, good or bad. Growing up in your home when very young is a place
where your free will not wanted. Can you see the difference in two?


i easily see the difference...
however, we're taught that god knows all and sees all...

so it's not possible that he did it to see what would happen, as a test.. because he knew what would happen before he planted the garden to begin with.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

So, you don't believe and don't like God. Okay, we can accept that. Your choice since He gave you "free will."

But, rather than any of us having a "talk to the wall" debate with you -- why don't you ask Him? It's His book!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


as i have stated often, i do believe in God, and i like him quite a bit.

but because i reject your words, it means i don't believe in and like God?

Arrogance and foolishness on your part, bill.

i strongly believe in God.
i love God and am grateful to Him and HIs Son for every breath i take and every time i touch my wife's hand, every rain storm, every rainbow, everytime i look at my remarkable children, and every minute of every day.
i believe in god and trust him completly.
i believe in him even more strongly that i disbelieve you, and distrust you, and that's sayign a lot.

and once again, you try and snake out of answering a question by attacking someone.
but believe it or not, this isn't about you.

be a man, for once in your life. answer the questions.
IF you can.
CrustyMacCrustyMacOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by paw-paw:
I would also like to know the answer to question two of nagle's post. You don't have to prove it with pages of useless information. Just give your honest opinion. If you have info to back it up, that's OK too. Just a simple answer for the question, "why did God put the tree of knowledge in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it?" Anyone?


I believe it would be to test you. To see if your'll going to keep the laws he states.
If you can't get aroung the first tree without stealing a apple thats not a good sign.
Adam and didn't do it. the better the person, the higher place in heaven. It's hard
because the reward is so great. We have no ideal. To create us without free will
would be the same stupid day, day after day. Bjbg might could pick it up. God wants
your true nature, good or bad. Growing up in your home when very young is a place
where your free will not wanted. Can you see the difference in two?


So, omniscient God failed on the first try. Why, if he knew it was going to happen?

It seems you are saying that God is some kind of scientist, and we are the lab rats. But why? He already knows the outcome. Why experiment?
Billy Joe Bob GeneBilly Joe Bob GeneHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by paw-paw:
I would also like to know the answer to question two of nagle's post. You don't have to prove it with pages of useless information. Just give your honest opinion. If you have info to back it up, that's OK too. Just a simple answer for the question, "why did God put the tree of knowledge in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it?" Anyone?


paw,

In a literal sense, there was no Garden of Eden. It's a metaphor for a simpler time when we lived on the fruits of nature, as our chimpanzee cousins do now.

So, I must challenge the premise of your question. There was no Tree of Knowledge. Knowledge came to us gradually, and continues to come to us.

Take from the story what metaphorical wisdom you will, but know that it never happened as the story in Genesis tells.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
My opinion only.

Yes, God was testing Adam and Eve's ability to resist temptation. He also knew they would fail, otherwise the human race would not commence. So we are a test case. An experiment. Those who follow the rules get the reward.

As for sin, man created sin by being a greedy, selfish, lustful, arrogant, prideful being. That was also planned.

Now to really stir things up, why did God put the Tree of Life (Immortality) in the garden and not care if they ate of it or not? Which, of course, they didn't.


my problem with this is that we're taught that we are sinful, by nature, because of eve plucking that fruit and getting adam to eat it with her.

so we created sin by disobeying god... when he KNEW we would... and put the tree there anyway.

this isn't an argument against God, it's an argument against the bible being the literal inerrant word of god.

if we believe the bible, God set us up in such a way that any 2 bit shyster would be able to have it dismissed in court as obvious entrapment.

it's is, in fact, the issue that started me doubting that the bible was the word of god.
all of the divine attributes that god supposedly has, benevolent, loving, just, mercyful, all knowing, all powerful.. they just don't allow for that one simple story to be true.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
Nagel, have those questions been answered to your satisfaction? They haven't to mine. Cool


No Ma'am.
i didn't really expect the big one to be - there really isn't an answer...

either the bible is wrong about the nature of God, or it's wrong about the story of Eden and the exile.
the two cannot be realistically reconciled.

either God cheated and punished us out of spite, of the story is wrong.

personally i opt for the story being wrong. but that's just me.
O No!O No!Old Faithful
I think you're forgetting the part that Satan played in all of this. It was the serpent who talked Eve into trying the apple. God gave us free will. Satan tempted that free will.

All through the Old Testament you see God's children doing just the opposite of what he told them to do. Even His beloved David sinned. I think after giving us a chance to do what's right, He finally realized that He would have to intervene, and so He sent Jesus to redeem us.

What took so long? Well, I think time is much different to God. What seems like eons to us is just the blink of an eye to God.
b50mb50mOld Faithful
Very true ONO. The garden had more than one super being walking around in it.

I look at the old testament as God being a Father dealing with ignorant children. They were all like two year olds disobeying. The New Testament is God accepting us to be intelligent enough to understand what He asks without being scared into doing so.
My two cents.
thenagelthenagelPost Master
Billy Joe, Metephorical or not, regardless of whether or not God exists, we're discussing what is written.
the the most part you don't even have to believe it to be true to discuss whether the parts add up.

and no, i hadn't forgotten the role that satan was playing in the garden.
but his part is irrelevent.
God is given the attributes All powerful, All knowing.
God knew adam and eve would be tempted into breaking the rules.
he knew it, and had the power to stop it by not putting the tree there, or putting in a place they couldn't get to.

by laying in on lucifer, you're hinting that god couldn't have stopped him from the actions he took.
that makes him not omnipotent.
or, he didn't know what would happen.
that makes him not omnesceint.

OR he knew what would happen, took no action to stop it, and punished adam and eve for it anyway
which kinda rules out that whole mercify and benevelent thing.

OR - the book is wrong.

those are the only possibilities i see....
GC Gifted ChildHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by paw-paw:
I would also like to know the answer to question two of nagle's post. You don't have to prove it with pages of useless information. Just give your honest opinion. If you have info to back it up, that's OK too. Just a simple answer for the question, "why did God put the tree of knowledge in the garden when he knew Adam and Eve would eat from it?" Anyone?


I believe it would be to test you. To see if your'll going to keep the laws he states.
If you can't get aroung the first tree without stealing a apple thats not a good sign.
Adam and didn't do it. the better the person, the higher place in heaven. It's hard
because the reward is so great. We have no ideal. To create us without free will
would be the same stupid day, day after day. Bjbg might could pick it up. God wants
your true nature, good or bad. Growing up in your home when very young is a place
where your free will not wanted. Can you see the difference in two?


i easily see the difference...
however, we're taught that god knows all and sees all...

so it's not possible that he did it to see what would happen, as a test.. because he knew what would happen before he planted the garden to begin with.


Nagel, I think I'm the one being set up,anyway, You just said it, he knows. from
start to finish, you have much temptation all the way. your free will will keep you
out of sin or in sin.Thats how he plan it for you. If not, you sit in the garden all
day playing with the oranges, nothing going on ever who cares. waste of time.
No one loves God or hates him, indifferent. Nobody gains, no body loses.
Nine levels of heaven. First floor will be full. Many will go to hell.
why create a world of drones anyway. There is a God, there's too much proof for it. He's got to give us proof, if not he would wreak his whole plan. You need to know
it when you see it.
b50mb50mOld Faithful
Yep, that about what I think. Utopia would get old by day three. The risk of going into the world and finding out the good or bad is why we were created.
If God had never created the situation for Adam and Eve to sin, we wouldn't be here.

Like trying to get your teenager out of the basement.

Tough love!
ButtercupButtercupPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
I think you're forgetting the part that Satan played in all of this. It was the serpent who talked Eve into trying the apple. God gave us free will. Satan tempted that free will.

All through the Old Testament you see God's children doing just the opposite of what he told them to do. Even His beloved David sinned. I think after giving us a chance to do what's right, He finally realized that He would have to intervene, and so He sent Jesus to redeem us.

What took so long? Well, I think time is much different to God. What seems like eons to us is just the blink of an eye to God.


But God knew Satan would do this too...so back to Nagel's questions that haven't been answered: Why?

And what's the point of our existence on this planet if God already knows the outcome? How is it a test when He's already got the answers?

Is God a sadist? (I can just hear the gasps.)
GC Gifted ChildHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
I think you're forgetting the part that Satan played in all of this. It was the serpent who talked Eve into trying the apple. God gave us free will. Satan tempted that free will.

All through the Old Testament you see God's children doing just the opposite of what he told them to do. Even His beloved David sinned. I think after giving us a chance to do what's right, He finally realized that He would have to intervene, and so He sent Jesus to redeem us.

What took so long? Well, I think time is much different to God. What seems like eons to us is just the blink of an eye to God.


But God knew Satan would do this too...so back to Nagel's questions that haven't been answered: Why?

And what's the point of our existence on this planet if God already knows the outcome? How is it a test when He's already got the answers?

Is God a sadist? (I can just hear the gasps.)


Buttercup, I think you just failed the test. I think the test giver would know in
advance. If it were my test I would know. So everybody stop playing God and play your own part. Pick up your pencils your life starts now.
ButtercupButtercupPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Gifted Child:
quote:
Originally posted by Buttercup:
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
I think you're forgetting the part that Satan played in all of this. It was the serpent who talked Eve into trying the apple. God gave us free will. Satan tempted that free will.

All through the Old Testament you see God's children doing just the opposite of what he told them to do. Even His beloved David sinned. I think after giving us a chance to do what's right, He finally realized that He would have to intervene, and so He sent Jesus to redeem us.

What took so long? Well, I think time is much different to God. What seems like eons to us is just the blink of an eye to God.


But God knew Satan would do this too...so back to Nagel's questions that haven't been answered: Why?

And what's the point of our existence on this planet if God already knows the outcome? How is it a test when He's already got the answers?

Is God a sadist? (I can just hear the gasps.)


Buttercup, I think you just failed the test. I think the test giver would know in
advance. If it were my test I would know. So everybody stop playing God and play your own part. Pick up your pencils your life starts now.


Okay, the test giver has the answers to the test; we've established that. Now what's the point of the test?
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
So, nagel, if this is merely a literary discussion, may I inject Naked Lunch, by Burroughs?


LOL.. if we were discussing burroughs, by all meansSmiler

but we're discussing one little phrase in one little book, and burroughs, wether naked lunch or john carter of mars or tarzan himself, it's not really part of the topic at hand Smiler
thenagelthenagelPost Master
quote:

quote:
Buttercup, I think you just failed the test. I think the test giver would know in
advance. If it were my test I would know. So everybody stop playing God and play your own part. Pick up your pencils your life starts now.



Okay, the test giver has the answers to the test; we've established that. Now what's the point of the test?


and if the test giver knew the outcome.. why bother with the test?

just mark down the results and move on Smiler
b50mb50mOld Faithful
I don't think God knows how each test subject will do, that's free will again. If it was predetermined, that would be the Calvinist viewpoint.
I don't think God watches every single person every day for 24 hours, He could but He doesn't need to.


Quotation:
"God preordained...a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal ****ation. " John Calvin

P: This stands for "Perseverance of the saints:" This is the "Once saved, always saved" belief -- that everyone who has been saved will remain in that state. God will begin and continue a process of sanctification which will continue until they reach heaven. None are lost; it is impossible for them to lose their salvation.
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