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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I recently began titled "Which Church Do You Attend?" -- my Forum Friend, SistahToldYa, asked, "I never heard the Rapture taught when I was a girl.  I have later, but it's not something our pastor stresses.  Do you mind telling us what kind of Baptist church you're a member of, Bill?"

Sistah, you might say I am a Christian with a Baptist flavor -- because my personal Statement of Faith matches well with the Baptists.   In 1987 I was saved in a Baptist church affiliated with the BGC (Baptist General Conference), but, over the years, have attended several churches which were Southern Baptist.  I am more comfortable with the BGC Baptist for, in the past 20+ years the Southern Baptist have been infiltrated to a large extent by those adhering to a Calvinist theology.  I would guess that now at least half of the Southern Baptist Seminaries lean heavily toward a Calvinist theology.

The BGC has stayed comfortably, at least for me, in between the Calvinist and the Arminians.  We do not adhere to the Calvinist teaching of Predestination whereby God chose before the Creation who would go to heaven, the Elect, and who would go to hell, the Reprobate -- with the individual not having any "free will" to follow Christ.

And, we do not adhere to the Arminian teaching that a person who is truly saved -- can then lose their salvation.  In the Arminian theology there is no eternal security, no peace with God (Romans 5:1).  Why?  Because the person always has to be looking over his/her shoulder -- afraid that the smallest infraction will cause him to lose his salvation.  That is not the way Christ wants us to have peace with God.

So, I guess you can say that I am comfortable with the BGC Baptists.

Regarding the teaching of the Rapture and End Times eschatology; you are right that many churches do not teach this.  Why?  Very likely because many pastors do not truly understand this part of Biblical prophecy and either consciously or unconsciously avoid the book of Revelation.

However, Revelation is only a part of the End Times eschatology.  Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and many other books are key to the teaching of the End Times; particularly Daniel.  It is in Daniel that we learn of the Seventy Weeks, i.e, that God has allotted 70 weeks of years for man to get his act together (Daniel 9:24-27). 

 

The first 69 week of years (483 years) were completed the day that Jesus Christ made His Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem -- and four days later He was crucified.  Three days after His crucifixion, Christ resurrected --  and fifty days after His resurrection, the Day of Pentecost, the Christian church was born when the 120 disciples who were waiting in the Upper Room were empowered and indwelled by the Holy Spirit (Acts 2).  This began the Church Age which has gone on for over 2000 years to date.

The last week of Daniel's prophecy, the 70th Week of Daniel (the final week of years, 7 years), also called Jacob's Troubles (Jeremiah 30:7), will begin after the Rapture occurs, when Christ will appear in the clouds to take His church, His body of believers from earth.  Shortly after the Rapture -- maybe days, maybe months -- Israel will sign a seven year Peace Accord with the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27).  This in the event which triggers the beginning of the seven year Tribulation -- truly hell on earth.

No one can know when Christ will return to Rapture His church, i.e., it is imminent, meaning that it could happen any moment -- or it may not happen for many years.  However, two keys indicators of the approach of His Rapture are (1) the return of the nation Israel to its homeland -- which happened in 1948 (Deuteronomy 30:3; Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14), and (2) the growing apostasy worldwide (2 Thessalonians 2:3) -- which no one can deny is happening.  Secularism, atheism, and other anti-God  movements are most certainly growing in intensity around the world -- and especially in America.

So, why have we not heard more about the Rapture, Tribulation, i.e, the End Times, in our churches.  Well, for one thing -- this teaching goes against the traditions of some churches.  For example, for the PreTribulation Rapture and the Premillennial Return of Christ to be true -- this would negate the teaching of purgatory.

And, it negates the Amillennial teaching of the more legalistic churches.  Many of our Liberal Theology churches deny that the Bible is truly the inspired Written Word of God, the sole authority upon which the Christian church, the Christian faith, and the Christian life are built.   Consequently, both the Legalistic church and the Liberal Theology church views the books of prophecy as merely tales of symbolism and myth, not true prophecy to be taken seriously.

Therefore, it is basically only the Conservative Theology churches and denominations, i.e., those who take a dispensational view of the Bible -- which believe and teach the PreTribulation Rapture and the PreMillennial Return of Christ to establish His 1000 year Millennial Reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem. 

 

And, this is why you will see the more Liberal Theology groups being anti-Israel -- teaching a Replacement Theology, i.e., that the Christian church, the body of believers, has replaced Israel as the chosen people of God.  This view teaches that the church has become the "spiritual chosen people of God" and has replaced the apostatized Israel, the prior "physical chosen people of God."

However, my belief in PreTrib/PreMillennial eschatology is not based upon any particular church.  It is based upon my own personal 20+ year study of eschatology.   In 1991, when Iraq had invaded Kuwait and all over the news we saw images of burning oil fields and skies blackened by this -- many pastors and Bible study leaders began to talk about the End Times. 

 

At that time, I was in a Bible study taught by a very knowledgeable leader, Tom Fletcher.  When he began to talk about the Rapture, the Tribulation, etc. -- I had no idea what this all meant.  I was totally lost, but, I was not about to show my "new Christian" ignorance of the Bible by asking him to explain.  In hindsight, I am sure that I was not the only one at that Bible study who was lost and, not wanting to appear ignorant, did not ask.

After that night I determined to study the End Times, i.e., eschatology -- and I have been doing this since.  During this time, I have spent four years creating charts which take us from Eternity to Eternity, emphasizing the key points of End Times prophecy.  Over that four years, I drew my charts -- and, several times I have had to go back and correct errors when I gained new or more correct knowledge. 

 

At this time, I feel that they are pretty accurate based upon my knowledge of the Bible.  However, whenever a Friend can point out an error or misunderstanding on my part -- I am eager to take a look at this new evidence.  And, if need be, I will make additional changes in the charts.

And, for Bible studies I have led, I have created several PowerPoint based "End Times Bible Studies" presentations.  These I have used to lay the groundwork for the beginning of a Bible study in the book of Revelation.  These basically define the terminology and the core of what we will study when we begin the verse by verse study of Revelation.

I will be very happy to e-mail these End Time charts and the PowerPoint presentations, which are easy to understand, to anyone who will send me a PM (Dialog) with your e-mail address.

But, Sistah, like you I had never heard of the Rapture before 1991.  As a youth growing up in Sheffield, I first attended the Nazarene, then the Baptist, and sometimes the Methodist churches.  After leaving home in 1955 to join the Air Force, over the years I was in and out of many churches -- Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Baptists, and many others, including non-denominational churches.   It was not until I became involved with the BGC affiliated Baptist church in Southern California that I first heard about Bible studies.  I am not kidding -- in all those years, in all those churches -- I never heard about Bible studies and was never invited to any Bible studies.

To me, this is a great weakness in many of our churches.  Considering the process of learning about our Christian faith and growing in our knowledge of God's Word -- I view the local church like a three-legged stool: the three legs being the sermon, Sunday School, and Bible study.   Cut off any of those legs -- and the stool is unstable.  Cut off both the Sunday School and the Bible study legs -- and the stool is almost impossible to balance.

I realize that many churches replace the evening of Bible study with an evening of prayer.  And, an evening of prayer is very, very important.  However, this should NEVER replace Bible study or Sunday School in a local church fellowship.  So, my suggestion to most churches -- have your Wednesday night Prayer Meetings.  But, also have a Friday or Saturday night Bible Study.  And, most certainly have Sunday School.

If you think people are not interested -- try them.  You will be surprised.  In my own personal opinion -- Sunday School and Bible study are where most people get 80% of their Bible knowledge.  For this is where we can interact and have discussions; which increases our depth of knowledge of God's Word.

Sistah, I realize that I have rambled on quite a bit.  But, this is an indication of how important I believe the subject of prophecy should be for all Christians.  Thirty percent of the Bible is prophecy!   If prophecy were not very important -- would God have written about it that much?

And, when folks question the validity of our Bible -- the best proof of its validity is prophecy.  In the Bible, there are over 1800  prophecies.  Of that 1800+ prophecies -- all except the few dealing with the return of Christ have been fulfilled -- with 100% accuracy.  This is why we can know that our Bible is valid -- and why we know we must take a serious look at all prophecies, especially End Time prophecies.

Sistah, thank you for opening this subject and for allowing me to expand upon it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Suffice it to say there are numerous Christians of varying denominations that believe many things about Revelation, end times, and the Rapture.  Many do not accept that a Rapture will even take place.  I, like Bill, do believe a Rapture is scriptural however unlike Bill I cannot accept that Scripture (Old Testament Prophecy and New Testament) supports and backs up a "Pre-Tribulational"  timing of the Rapture. 

 

I used to support, advocate, preach and teach the Pre-Tribulational view of the Rapture but in the course of that teaching and personal study I became aware that Scripture did not support that view.  So although Bill and I believe in a Rapture we disagree on the timing or it.  We also disagree on whether or not the Church and Christians will enter into and be affected by events contained within the 70th week of Daniel or as some refer to it as "The Tribulation".  One reason I believe this is a very important thing, or should be, to Christians and the Church, is in case we are among those in the "Last Days" that we will be ready, prepared, and expecting the trials and tribulations that we will find ourselves encountering because of our faith in Jesus Christ.  We will know to expect extremely difficult and hard times due to our belief and refusal to deny Christ.  We will be prepared, as instructed to each of the Seven Churches of Revelation, to OVERCOME. 


I fully believe that Christ taught, His Disciples taught, Old Testament Prophecy teaches, and Revelation reveals that Christians and the Church will have to endure certain events, recorded in Revelation 6, that will take place during the time of Tribulation (Daniel's 70th Week) when the End Days do come.  Like Bill I too can, and will gladly, forward Scriptural references to support the position I now take and believe to be Scripturally accurate.  As I said there are many others who believe differently than us so I believe it's important to say that although there are many who disagree that if you are willing to study and personally pray about it that the Holy Spirit will lead you (provided you are a Christian) to peace regarding this topic.  The reason so many have differing beliefs on this topic, as with many others, is due to various interpretation of the Scriptures.  Many people, also, listen to teachers or preachers, ministers and accept what they teach/preach, accepting it, as God's Truth without following it up with prayerful personal study, into God's Word, allowing the Holy Spirit to reveal unto them what God has for them specifically and either reinforcing what was taught or challenging it.


Teachings/Doctrines, that a person accepts as Scriptural, many times are awarded credibility based solely on which teachers and which Church Denomination they consider as credible and to which they personally believe in or on.   This is why you have much diversity in what is taught, or not taught, in Churches.  Many times, as Bill alluded to, Pastors/Ministers and teachers stray away from the topic because they, themselves, are not really sure of their own beliefs so they just avoid the subject for what they believe is what they were taught in seminary to believe and they, themselves, never really challenged it.


We have, on this forum, had debates and discussions regarding various Rapture timing beliefs or if there is a Rapture.  Bill believes in a Pre-Tribulation Raptures which teaches that Revelation 4:1 is symbolic of the Rapture and therefore when it occurs, in Revelation.  I, however, have come to believe that the Scripturally correct position is what is termed as the "Pre-Wrath" Tribulation position.  This simply says that the Rapture of God's Saints (Christians) occurs immediately prior to the "Day of the Lord"  or immediately before God's Wrath is released.  Under this view the Rapture is believed to be recorded, starting in, Revelation 7:9.  Also this position believes that the events, recorded, in Revelation 6 are not God's Wrath but rather are teachings of events that will occur under the Antichrist reign and presence and due to his influence on World events and governments.  The agreement with Israel as well as the Antichrist will happen prior to the actual Rapture.  


The Pre-Wrath Rapture position teaches that Christ, Himself, told and taught about these events and the Rapture in Matthew 24 (specifically Matthew 24:29-31) and that Christ does not give a specific day or time of the Rapture as some false prophets tend to try and do, but gives indications to Christians as to when they can know and expect that the time is near and upon the Church.  Think about the following Scripture that Paul wrote to the Thessalonian Church regarding the Rapture, which was immediately discussed in the passage before this one ( 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).  Read what Paul says to these Christian Believers.

 

1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 (NLT)
{1} Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters, we don’t really need to write you.
{2} For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
{3} When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
{4}But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.
{5} For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.
{6} So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.
{7} Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.
{8} But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.

Read and note verse 4 specifically.  The reason the Church/Christians are said to not be surprised by the Rapture isn't because they have special knowledge and prior warning about a specific date and time but because they have been pre-warned, by Christ (Matthew 24) as to exactly what to expect during the end days/times.  What will happen and the order of events (not the times and date).   In Christ own words.

 

 

Matthew 24:29-31 (NLT)
{29} “Immediately after the anguish of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will give no light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
{30} And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
{31} And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.


Matthew 24:32-33 (NLT)
{32} “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near.
{33} In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door.

 


when you see all these things ... these things refer to what Christ just told them in the preceding verses Matthew 24:4-29

 

Pre-Tribulationist, like Bill, will say that the above verses refer to Christ Second Coming rather than the Rapture but I do not believe this to be factual and if one were to take that view then the obvious question would be WHERE in Matthew 24 and Christ own teachings was His reference and teaching about the Rapture?  


IF Matthew 24:30 & 31 is not the Rapture then given that the Rapture precedes the 2nd Coming then where in verses 1-29 is Christ teaching about the Rapture?  It's not there and it's not there because verses 30 & 31 ARE about the Rapture.


This is just one reason, I believe, we (Christians) can recognize the signs (as previously taught by Christ, recorded in Matthew 24) as to what will happen when the actual last days get here.  Just like the signs that the seasons are upon us there will be definite signs that will precede the Rapture of the Church and although we won't know the exact time or day we will be aware of the season and that it will be close upon us so as it says in verse 4 of 1 Thessalonians 5 we (Christians/believers) will not be surprised.  


As I said before Bill believes differently than I do and others here and that you will encounter will still believe differently than us but each person should be aware of why they believes and accept what they do believe.  We should also prayerfully request of God's Holy Spirit that He give us peace and confidence about His teachings and base our understanding more on that which God provides us than what any one man or woman might say or teach and that includes myself and/or Bill or any other forum member.  You can consider what we share and what has caused us to believe as we do but ultimately find peace and comfort your own self in God's Words and through His Holy Spirit's teaching.


My apologies for the length/duration of the reply but hopefully I have gotten across my point clearly enough to give weight to my personal belief in the Pre-Wrath Rapture timing position.  Again if you wish I can forward, to you or anyone else, Scriptures and teachings that I believe reveal the true Rapture timing and teaching.   

Last edited by gbrk
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi to my Forum Friends,

And, we do not adhere to the Arminian teaching that a person who is truly saved -- can then lose their salvation.

Bill

________________

Bill, it’s people like you devoted to teaching your “Once Saved Always Saved” doctrine that’s been given over to deceiving spirits. You are the devil that’s in churches & on the streets deceiving people.

 

Jesus said “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”

Doesn't sound like eternal security to me. 

 

If a Christian can never lose his/her salvation, why would the devil even bother with Christians? It seems to me that the devil would concentrate only on those who are not saved... otherwise he'd be just wasting his time.

 

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 says “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”.

 

Satan is in churches preaching “it’s ok… one little sin won’t hurt you… after all you’re saved by grace & once you’re saved you’re always saved!”.

 

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
<Content clipped in order to respond to one specific section and to reduce apace in the reply and not due to content>

 

If a Christian can never lose his/her salvation, why would the devil even bother with Christians? It seems to me that the devil would concentrate only on those who are not saved... otherwise he'd be just wasting his time.

 

1 TIMOTHY 4:1 says “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”.

 

Satan is in churches preaching “it’s ok… one little sin won’t hurt you… after all you’re saved by grace & once you’re saved you’re always saved!”.

 

Semi,  please also do not feel I am addressing this specifically to you.  I offer up this because I know there are many who believe as you so please do not feel this a reproach to you are directed specifically for you.  I just have profound concern that many people, many Christians, are made to live or attempt to live in bondage to laws and commands in order to attempt to earn or maintain their Salvation.  I believe this is one impossible to do, that is keep all the laws, and not, being human, yield to temptation and sins.  


As I'm sure you realize there are many Christians who believe and teach across the spectrum on "Eternal Security".  I personally do not like using Once Saved Always Saved moniker because it makes Salvation sound like an insurance policy or a license to Sin with abandonment.

 

At times, when I look at a specific doctrine and teaching I attempt to approach it from a rational approach and assemble questions to help me come to a conclusion.  With specific regards to what a believer/Christian does, their acts or behavior I cannot, personally, believe that a Christian can sin away their salvation.  Sin, I believe, is a product of being human, the fleshly nature of being human and that doesn't change with Salvation.  Christians, like anyone else suffers temptations and also falls victim to sins against God's laws.  We (Christians), I believe are not saved by what we do, not saved by acts or by observing the Laws of God but rather by placing our faith in Christ Jesus that He alone is able to Justify our failures totally by His shed blood.  

 

A few of the reasons I cannot accept that a person can sin away their salvation are:  There are many sections of Scripture where Christians are encouraged to ask forgiveness for their sins that they commit.  Therefore God knows we are living in the flesh and are not perfect and there is emphasis on maintaining a right relationship with Him (God) by confessing our sins (1 John).  Also, I believe, we do not obtain salvation by obedience to the law therefore it would reason that we cannot lose it by disobedience to the law.  IF it were a fact that you could lose your salvation account of what you did or certain sins then I have no doubts that Scriptures would be replete with instructions about just what sins would be responsible for such a dire event.  It would also be reasonable to expect that God would provide ample warning before such sins were committed, in order to be just.  Think about the man in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 who is a Christian, active in the Church but living in deliberate and willfully sinning by taking his father's wife as a lover.  The Church is instructed to remove this man from their congregation and essentially turn him over to Satin's power and his chosen sins so that his physical body will be destroyed but his spirit (the soul) saved 

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NLT)
{5} Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.

This passage would have been a very good opportunity to reinforce and teach that salvation could be lost by ones deliberate sinning against God and in the Church.  Instead Paul instructs that the ultimate end result of this man's willful sinning is a penalty of a shortened physical life but ultimate salvation of his soul/spirit.  I do fully believe that there are very real penalties for deliberate and unconfessed sins in a Christian's life because when a Christian allows sin to reign in their life and unconfessed sin to remain then it harms the direct relationship between the human and God's Holy Spirit who ministers to each Christian and provides certain ministries of God unto Mankind.  That is but just one example and one reason I do not believe a person's sins can rob them of their Salvation but that is not discounting what you say altogether.  Satin then may very well keep the unsaved from being witnessed to by attacking Christians and ruining their relationship with God's Holy Spirit and ruining that Christian's testimony or effective witness, for God.  It is (I believe) God's Holy Spirit that ministers unto the lost, the unsaved, through various means including the lives and testimony of Christians so for Satan to disrupt this relationship would be to concentrate on those how are unsaved.

 

One thought about a Christian losing their salvation comes from when the Christian openly and willfully rejects Christ for whatever reason.  When they make a choice, from their heart, as they did in accepting Christ that they no longer believe in Christ and therefore reject Him that they are in effect comitting blaspheme of the Holy Spirit and that they relinquish their Salvation.  There are many reasons a Christian could come to this state and some might argue if a person was to sin enough so that the Holy Spirit is so removed that they no longer experience God's presence that they could potentially make that fateful declaration and decision.   Each person should be convinced in why they believe as they do. 

 

I personally have reason to believe that man/woman cannot sin away their salvation nor do I believe that Satan, Demons, or anyone else can take away a Christian's salvation.  There are many reasons that Satan still affects and goes after Christians and one would be to rob the Christian of their close and intimate relationship with God (Holy Spirit) through continual unconfessed sins.  Creating temptations to attempt to draw Christians into sin thereby limiting the Holy Spirit's work within that Christian believer which in turn could very much limit that Christians witness to others and potentially eliminate that persons future witness and ability to testify for God and this all being done without risking or jeopardizing the Christian's eternal state/Salvation.  The only area I am not totally comfortable with, in my own studies and belief, is regarding when the believer makes a conscience decision that they no longer accept Christ as savior, when they then reject Christ as Savior.  This very much, in my mind, could be the sin of blaspheme of the Holy Spirit since it is that very Holy Spirit that gives the guarantee that our Salvation and experience is real, valid, and legitimate.

 

Many Christians are robbed of their Christian liberty and their happiness due to teachings that they can sin away their salvation.  They live a life in Christian bondage to laws and rules that are presented to them as if they broke one or more that they would risk their own salvation.  The Christian believer then lives and dwells in fear rather than victory and freedom.  I believe this is unjust of many preachers/ministers/teachers to teach such and while there may be a point that an individual Christian may choose or make a choice to deny and reject Christ after once confessing Him I do not believe the individual sins we commit can deny us or rob us of our Salvation nor do I believe Satan can rob us of it with his demons or his own power.  For him or his demons to be able to do this they would have to be stronger and more powerful than God, God's Holy Spirit and be able to enter unto the Christians's own body and toss or remove the Holy Spirit and I simply do not believe that Satan has this power over God nor do I believe any man has that power.  

 

I hope that helps a little in a few beliefs I have regarding this issue.  I will admit that I am still praying for answers and studying this issue specifically with regards to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit.  One dire warning though, if this is possible, is that as I read Scriptures regarding this type of blaspheme that once it is done that there is not returning that person or that soul to repentance and right standing.  This could simply mean that God would no longer deal with that individual or convict them and enable them to be Saved again.  In a wicked ironic twist one could then say or play on words to say Once lost always lost.  I will admit I have much more study and more prayers with respect to this specific scenario but with regard to sinning our salvation away I am fully confident and assured, by Scriptures, that this is not the case, at least that is my personal belief.  It's also not an insurance policy (salvation) that enables us to sin without recourse or without punishment or penalty for I fully believe there are penalties that would be a strong reason to fight sin and temptation and to confess our sins daily in order to maintain a right and close relationship with God's Holy Spirit.  

 

I hope that makes sense.

Last edited by gbrk

There is several scriptures that speak about eternal security & would lead a person to think they can be OSAS. There's also a bunch of scriptures that speak of losing your salvation & they don't all refer to the Holy Spirit. That's why I've always said the Bible contradicts itself, over & over again.

 

IF the Bible is true & IF God truly does exist, no one can know exactly how the Bible is meant to be taken because of those contradictions. One church/Pastor teaches one thing, another church/Pastor teaches another. For example, the COC teaches they are the only ones going to Heaven, some Pentecostal teach you have to be baptized in the Spirit (speaking in tongues & all that nonsense) to be saved, some Baptist say you can be saved & you got it whipped (OSAS). I could go on & on.

 

Not everyone can be right, someone has to be wrong. That's why I say there's going to be a lot of Christians that think they're going to Heaven, but will end up in Hell right along side of me. Only difference is I never try to fool myself, where those Christians are fooling themselves daily.

gbrk  1 TIMOTHY 4:1, which says “Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”.

 

Ah,yes, another clear teaching that demonstrates the falsity of "once saved, always saved."

Never fear, though, you Calvinists!  Bill will soon appear to tell us that those who "depart from the faith" never were really in the faith at all, or that "depart" does not really mean "depart," or that those who "depart" will return, since they can not possibly be lost in the ultimate sense. OSAS true believers will always find a way, however spurious, to "explain away" the clear and profound teaching of scripture on this issue.

Never fear, though, you Calvinists!  Bill will soon appear to tell us that those who "depart from the faith" never were really in the faith at all, or that "depart" does not really mean "depart," or that those who "depart" will return, since they can not possibly be lost in the ultimate sense. 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Most likely he'll have to make yet another thread to do it too. It's not just bill. Almost every "christian" that finds out a person is an atheist, but claims to be a former believer, swears that person never actually believed. Cause after all, who would "throw away" something so wonderful as gawd!!! They don't like my argument that it must mean that they don't truly believe, because after all, what they are saying is that a person's mind never changes. So there is no way they can come to believe if it's not possible for someone to come to a non-belief.

Hi Chick,

You tell us, "There is several scriptures that speak about eternal security & would lead a person to think they can be OSAS (once saved, always saved).  There's also a bunch of scriptures that speak of losing your salvation & they don't all refer to the Holy Spirit.   That's why I've always said the Bible contradicts itself, over & over again.  IF the Bible is true & IF God truly does exist, no one can know exactly how the Bible is meant to be taken because of those contradictions. "

Chick, I am firmly convinced that the Bible does not contradict itself, nor does it contain errors.  However, rather than depend upon what Bill Gray tells you is the truth -- let's take a look at what several very reliable sources have to say about Bible errors.

First, we will look at the Question and Answer found in the God Questions Ministries web site:


Does The Bible Contain Errors, Contradictions, Or Discrepancies?
http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-errors.html


Question:  "Does the Bible contain errors, contradictions, or discrepancies?"

Answer:  If we read the Bible at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors, we will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book.  Yes, there are difficult passages.  Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other.  We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1500 years.   Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose.  We should expect some minor differences.  However, a difference is not a contradiction.  It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled.  Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist.  Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.

We often receive questions along the lines of “Explain how these verses do not contradict!” or “Look, here is an error in the Bible!”   Admittedly, some of the things people bring up are difficult to answer.  However, it is our contention that there are viable and intellectually plausible answers to every supposed Bible contradiction and error.

There are books and web sites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.”  Most people simply get their ammunition from these places; they do not find supposed errors on their own. There are also books and web sites available that refute every one of these supposed errorsThe saddest thing is that most people who attack the Bible are not truly interested in an answer.   Many  “Bible attackers” are even aware of these answers, but they continue to use the same old shallow attacks again and again.

So, what are we to do when someone approaches us with an alleged Bible error?  (1) Prayerfully study the Scriptures and see if there is a simple solution.  (2) Do some research using some of the fine Bible commentaries, “Bible defense” books, and biblical research web sites.  (3) Ask our pastors/church leaders to see if they can find a solution.  (4) If there is still no clear answer after steps (1), (2), and (3) are followed -- we trust God that His Word is truth and that there is a solution that just simply has not been realized yet  
(2 Timothy 2:15, 3:16-17).

Recommended Resource: "The Big Book of Bible Difficulties" by Geisler & Howe.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++


And, then, let's take a look at what we find in the FAQ section of the Blue Letter Bible web site:


Could Some Parts Of The Bible Contain Errors?
http://www.blueletterbible.org...t/stewart.cfm?id=634

 

Though the Bible claims to be the inerrant Word of God -- is it possible that there are errors in some parts of Scripture?  Does it really matter if the events, people, and places recorded in the Bible may be, in some instances, incorrect?  Can the Christian faith be upheld even if errors are admitted into Scripture?  The answer is, No.

God Cannot Lie:  If the Bible is the Word of God, then we should expect it to be accurate in what it says.  If the Bible is what it claims to be, God's Word, then there cannot be any contradictions. This is because God is perfection. Scripture teaches that God  cannot lie. Paul wrote to Timothy: ". . . in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago" (Titus 1:2).

The writer to the Hebrews also emphasized the impossibility of God lying:  ". . . in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have strong encouragement, we who have fled for refuge in laying hold of the hope set before  us" (Hebrews 6:18).

Jesus said:  "The Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35).

He also confirmed that God's Word was the truth:  "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth" (John 17:17).

The psalmist wrote:  "The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting" (Psalm 119:160).

If God inspired the Bible, and God cannot lie, then the Bible cannot lie, it must be telling the truth.


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And, the article from the Blue Letter Bible web site concludes with:

Summary:

The idea that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God is important for the following reasons.


1. It is important for the Bible to be accurate because the Scripture says that God cannot lie.

2. If there are any errors or contradictions in Scripture then God is a liar.

3. Because God inspired the Scripture there cannot be contradictions in any area. This includes matters historical,  theological, and scientific.  Therefore, in the original text, the Bible is error-free

4. Unless the Bible is error-free, the Christian has no ultimate source of authority.

 

If you would like to read the full text of the article, go to: http://www.blueletterbible.org...t/stewart.cfm?id=634

Then, Chick, you tell us, "One church/Pastor teaches one thing, another church/Pastor teaches another.  For example, the COC teaches they are the only ones going to Heaven, some Pentecostal teach you have to be baptized in the Spirit (speaking in tongues & all that nonsense) to be saved, some Baptist say you can be saved & you got it whipped (OSAS).  I could go on & on."

Yes, my Friend, you will find many errors in what is being taught in many churches and pulpits.  That is why the apostle Paul encourages everyone to test the teacher, in Acts 17:11, i.e., weigh what you are being taught against what Scripture teaches.  If  there is a difference, depend upon the Scripture.  It is always right.

Finally, you tell us, "Not everyone can be right, someone has to be wrong.  That's why I say there's going to be a lot of Christians that think they're going to Heaven, but will end up in Hell right along side of me.  Only difference is I never try to fool myself, where those Christians are fooling themselves daily.

First, if, before, you were truly a saved Christian believer as you tell us -- then, you will be in heaven with the rest of us.  All believers will have to stand before Christ at the Believers' Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) and answer for our actions, words and actions, done while in this body.  Some who have lived a life doubting Jesus Christ or the Word of God -- after becoming a true believer -- will have more to account for than another who stayed faithful to the Word.  However, we all will have much to answer for -- because we all are sinners (Romans 3:23).

On the other hand, Chick, if you only wore the Christian hat and never truly had a relationship with Christ -- there is still time for you to correct that.

But, my Friend, since you do know something about Scripture -- I cannot believe that you will actually choose to spend all of eternity in hell.   Chick, yes, you can HAVE and KNOW that you have salvation, a saving relationship with Christ, and eternal life with God.  However, you have to make the first move to make that happen.  Why not give Him a try?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bil

Hi GB,

You tell us, "Suffice it to say there are numerous Christians of varying denominations that believe many things about Revelation, end times, and the Rapture.  Many do not accept that a Rapture will even take place.  I, like Bill, do believe a Rapture is scriptural however unlike Bill I cannot accept that Scripture (Old Testament Prophecy and New Testament) supports and backs up a "Pre-Tribulational"  timing of the Rapture."

For the sake of our readers, GB is advocating a PreWrath Rapture.  This view teaches that Christ will return to Rapture His church somewhere about 2/3 of the way through the seven year Tribulation.  This cannot be true for one concrete reason.

Matthew 24:36-44, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. . .   For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will."

This Scripture passage is telling us of the "imminency" of the return of Christ to rapture His church.   And, it is telling us that NO ONE can know the day or the hour of the Rapture.   In other words, the Rapture can occur at any moment -- or it may not happen for many years.    No one can know and that is why we are told to be prepared -- "for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He  will."

If GB's view of the Rapture is correct, man can most certainly know the day that the Rapture will occur.  We just wait for the seven year Tribulation to begin -- and then count the days until the predicted PreWrath time occurs.

For this reason specifically, and for many other reasons -- the only time the Rapture can occur is PreTribulation.

However, regardless of which view one believes -- this does not affect our salvation.  When the Rapture does occur -- we can  compare notes on the way up.

So, you may ask, "Then, Bill, what is the purpose of even discussing the Rapture, the time of the Rapture, and other issues of eschatology?"   Glad you asked.  The value of discussing Biblical issues such as eschatology, even though our views do not affect our salvation, is that it encourages folks to dig deeper into the Word of God, to become more active in personal and corporate Bible study.  And, that is never a bad thing.  No one can study the Word of God too much.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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The idea that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God is important for the following reasons.


1. It is important for the Bible to be accurate because the Scripture says that God cannot lie.

2. If there are any errors or contradictions in Scripture then God is a liar.

3. Because God inspired the Scripture there cannot be contradictions in any area. This includes matters historical,  theological, and scientific.  Therefore, in the original text, the Bible is error-free

4. Unless the Bible is error-free, the Christian has no ultimate source of authority.

_________________

Proof that Bill's house of cards collapses when the Bible is exposed to critical thought, observation, and scientific theory, as all cults do.  Hopefully, one day, Bill can get past it and really find God.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,
Chick, I am firmly convinced that the Bible does not contradict itself, nor does it contain errors.  However, rather than depend upon what Bill Gray tells you is the truth -- let's take a look at what several very reliable sources have to say about Bible errors.

God Questions Ministries web site:

There are books and web sites available that list “all the errors in the Bible.”  

Recommended Resource: "The Big Book of Bible Difficulties" by Geisler & Howe.
Blue Letter Bible web site:

First, if, before, you were truly a saved Christian believer as you tell us -- then, you will be in heaven with the rest of us. 

However, we all will have much to answer for --
On the other hand, Chick, if you only wore the Christian hat
Bil

__________________

And I am firmly convinced that the Bible does contradict itself. And no, Bill, I would never depend on anything you tell me.

 

Bill, you need to study the Bible & figure it out for yourself. Reading all these books that people write & reading that junk on websites could possibly be wrong. You shouldn’t depend on other people to tell you what the Bible means.

 

Even though at one time I was saved, I am in what you Christians call a “backsleden” state. And no, I won’t be in Heaven with you because I don’t believe in OSAS. I'm not 100% sure that you will even be there. I see you as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

Yes, you will have much to answer for Bill, for your constantly leading people astray with your OSAS.

No, I didn’t always wear the hat, though I did for awhile because others expected me to be a Christian, no matter if I was unhappy or not.

 

Hi Chick,

 

In my earlier post, the statement which you took out of context trying to make it say what you wanted, "There are books and web sites available that list 'all the errors in the Bible'” -- is a rhetorical statement.  In other words, it is telling us that there are lists which non-believers will post and claim to be in error -- but, which are not.

 

My Friend, instead of looking for portions of a post and trying to twist it to fit what you want it to say -- try reading our post for what they truly are saying.  Read them in the context in which they are written. 

 

It appears that you see this as a contest -- who can outwit the other.  But, that is not why a Christian will post Biblical information.  We do it because we want you, and all who read the posts, to know the truth about God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi GB,

You tell us, "Suffice it to say there are numerous Christians of varying denominations that believe many things about Revelation, end times, and the Rapture.  Many do not accept that a Rapture will even take place.  I, like Bill, do believe a Rapture is scriptural however unlike Bill I cannot accept that Scripture (Old Testament Prophecy and New Testament) supports and backs up a "Pre-Tribulational"  timing of the Rapture."

For the sake of our readers, GB is advocating a PreWrath Rapture.  This view teaches that Christ will return to Rapture His church somewhere about 2/3 of the way through the seven year Tribulation.  This cannot be true for one concrete reason.

Matthew 24:36-44, "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. . .   For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will."

This Scripture passage is telling us of the "imminency" of the return of Christ to rapture His church.   And, it is telling us that NO ONE can know the day or the hour of the Rapture.   In other words, the Rapture can occur at any moment -- or it may not happen for many years.    No one can know and that is why we are told to be prepared -- "for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He  will."

If GB's view of the Rapture is correct,  <content snipped for space>

Bill, for one it's not my view it is a view, about the timing of the Rapture, that I accept as the ONLY Scripturally accurate to the timing of the Rapture.   Timing not in days or hours but seasons or approximate time tied to various definite and prophesied signs and events.

 

You used a passage in Matthew 24 so Compare the two passages below that say essentially the same thing and then consider 1 Thessalonians 5:4.  Also do you not see that verses 32 & 33 also go along with and support (in the same contextual setting) as verses 36 & 37 which you are attempting to cherry pick to then make an assertion that they are there to support the doctrine/teaching of imminency.   The whole passage of Matthew 24 eliminates imminency as a valid doctrine for there are certain events/signs that have to transpire before the Church can be Raptured.  The last being revealed in Revelation 7:1-8 in the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses/converts.  Note that I have also inserted some comments within the scriptural references below.  The exact scripture appears in green and then red and my personal comments appear in blue.

(1)   1 Thessalonians 5:1-8 (NLT) 

{1} Now concerning how and when all this will happen (this being the Rapture), dear brothers and sisters, we don’t really need to write you.
{2} For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night. ( this is how it will be to the Spiritually uninformed, the unsaved)
{3} When people (unsaved people) are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
{4} But you (Christians, believers, saints of God)  aren’t in the dark about these things (these things being the rapture of the saints as told in 1 Thessalonians 4), dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised (like the unsaved and uninformed) when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.
{5} For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.  (It is our ability to be instructed by Christ and the Holy Spirit about what will transpire that allows us to not be in darkness as we have heard the truth).
{6} So be on your guard, not asleep like the others. Stay alert and be clearheaded.
{7} Night is the time when people sleep and drinkers get drunk.
{8} But let us who live in the light be clearheaded, protected by the armor of faith and love, and wearing as our helmet the confidence of our salvation.

 

(2) Matthew 24:32-37 (NLT) 

{32} “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. ( instructions to encourage His listeners, the disciples and those to whom the passage is directed to watch the signs as He foretold above in verses 15-29 of Matthew 24)
{33} In the same way, (He tells us to use the illustration of the fig tree in determining when summer is near direct to that of knowing when the Rapture is near account of the signs that will precede it)  when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door.
{34} I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place.  (The very generation that is alive to witness the signs told about in verses 15-29 will also be the same generation alive and see the Rapture events happen and endure the prophesied tribulation events)
{35} Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.
{36} “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.  ( I believe this was put here as a direction as not to attempt to date set but rather He is saying it is impossible to restrict it, the Rapture, to a date and time.  Rather we are to be alert for the signs that signify that the Rapture is upon mankind and the Church)
{37} “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day.

 

The above verses do not invalidate the Pre-wrath position in any way for it simply clarifies that Christians cannot know the exact day or time but as the verses immediately above them state we can know the "season" is upon us for the Rapture.  Verses 32 & 33 go directly with verses 34 through verse 37 it's all in the same context, that of Christ laying out the events that will signify the actual End Days the coming 70th week of Daniel and in direct answer to the Disciples request of how to KNOW when the days are upon them and what will happen during those days. 

 

The above scriptures plainly say that Christians/Believers ( who study the Scriptures, heard the teachings (my terminology)) can know and recognize when the time of the Raptures is close/near.  No one, not me or in any of my post, does it say we know or can know the day or time of the Rapture.  We, I, advocates of the pre-wrath position are just saying that when foretold, prophesied signs occur we can know that the time is upon us (near) for the Rapture.  If you are going to attempt to describe the Pre-Wrath position then please do it justice and not be slanted or inaccurate in your statements.  The Pre-Wrath position is not tied to a 2/3rd time point of the 70th week but rather it's tied to God's Wrath, The day of the Lord.  The importance of this knowledge is to enable the Christians, that find themselves alive and a part of "that generation" that witness the prophesied signs to prepare for the extremely tough times and tribulations that they will soon endure at the hands of the Antichrist and those serving him.  

 

Note it has been Pre-Tribulationist that have been historically setting exact dates and days claiming that the Rapture will occur on such and such a date and time.  Pre-Wrath advocates are not the ones doing this.  By convincing those who are listening to you that Christians will be raptured out before the Antichrist gets on the scene you unjustly set them up for disillusion and confusion when they see things happen around them that are not supposed to happen because they were supposed to be raptured out.  Things like the signing of the peace treaty with Israel, things like the setting up of the Abomination that causes desolation, things like having to reject the mark of the beast.  If you, and pre-tribulationist are right then the Church and Christians will be raptured out before this but if you are wrong and the Pre-Wrath advocates right then the Church and many Christians will be ill prepared for what they will surely endure.  They will not be prepared and not have their lamps filled with oil, so to say.

 

I'm very aware of your belief in the Pre-Tribulation position being the accurate one but I fully am convinced, just as much so, that Scripture does not back up your position and that the Pre-Tribulation position is not the accurate one describing the timing of the Rapture.  

 

Also IF you are correct, about your interpretation of Matthew 24:30 & 31 and that they refer to the 2nd Coming of Christ then where does Christ reveal the Rapture to the Disciples for He (Christ) is very detailed about what will transpire in the end days in answer to the disciples direct question about such things?  How do you write away 1 Thessalonians 5:4 and reconcile 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 with Matthew 24:29-37?  Im' also aware that the Pre-Tribulation advocates have scriptures they cite and use to support their position but they cannot use these scriptures literally but must take them figuratively and disregard other scriptures that plainly and literally specify the actual timing and event of the rapture.  Describe not the exact day/hour but the season the signs that immediately precede the Rapture.  So Bill if you want to describe the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position have at it for you are well versed with the teachings of that position but please do not taint or misrepresent the Pre-Wrath position in your attempt to sway opinion in your direction.  I believe the Scriptures speak for themselves in a plain and clear way, a way that reinforces and proves the Pre-Wrath advocates position as the only Scripturally accurate one.   Bill you are doing a great job of preaching but not listening or comprehending what the actual scriptures are plainly saying. I do understand this though  for to support the Pre-Tribulation position you have to do as you are doing and there is no wavering of your position for you are convinced what other pre-tribulation teachers have taught you regarding the subject.

Last edited by gbrk
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

 In my earlier post, the statement which you took out of context trying to make it say what you wanted, "There are books and web sites available that list 'all the errors in the Bible'” -- is a rhetorical statement.  In other words, it is telling us that there are lists which non-believers will post and claim to be in error -- but, which are not.

instead of looking for portions of a post and trying to twist it to fit what you want it to say -- try reading our post for what they truly are saying.  Read them in the context in which they are written. 

It appears that you see this as a contest -- who can outwit the other.  But, that is not why a Christian will post Biblical information.  We do it because we want you, and all who read the posts, to know the truth about God, Jesus Christ, and the Bible.

Bill

______________________

I took nothing out of context. I quoted what I was answering to. You've suggested books & links before that you think we should read.

 

I don't care if you do see it as a contest, as one trying to outwit the other. When I ask a question, I sincerely want an answer, If I didn't, I wouldn't ask.

 

What would you call those stupid little cartoons you put on here? What are you doing when you use your favorite word "Duh" in reply to something someone says?

 

You want people to know the truth as YOU see it, but that doesn't make it true just because you say it is.

As for myself, I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

 

Hi GB,

 

In the Bible, Jesus tells us that NO ONE can know the day or hour of His return to Rapture His church.  He also tells us that He will return like a thief in the night.  In other words, He will return when NO ONE is expecting Him to come.  And, this does mean NO ONE, both believers and non-believers.   This is why He tells us that we must always be prepared so that we are not caught unprepared.

 

You may recall the story of the ten virgins, i.e., bridesmaids, who were invited to the wedding.  All are invited (John 3:16) -- but, not all will enter the wedding (be Raptured) for many are not ready.   They are not ready because they do not have a relationship with Christ. 

 

Five had oil for their lamps, five neglected to have sufficient oil.  When the Bridegroom came, those who were prepared (those with oil for their lamps, i.e., believers) were taken into the wedding; those who were not prepared, i.e., non-believers, missed the wedding.

 

This parable is speaking of the Rapture -- when the Bridegroom comes for His Bride, the body of believers.   Neither the five bridesmaids with oil (the believers) nor the five bridesmaids without oil (the non-believers) knew the day or time when the Bridegroom, Christ, would come.  You can read about this in Matthew 25.

 

Yes, we are given signs of His return, i.e., the return of Israel to its homeland, etc. -- but, still this does not allow anyone to set a day or time.   This is the teaching of imminence -- that no one can know the day or hour.

 

Yet, if the Rapture does not precede the Tribulation -- none of the above is true.  For man could most certainly set the day of His Rapture.  They would use the beginning of the Tribulation, i.e., the day that Israel signs a seven year peace accord with the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27) -- and determine the day of the Rapture.  This is negating all the Scripture which tells us that NO ONE can know the day.   No, my Friend, only a PreTribulation Rapture fits all Scripture.  

 

But, there is no problem if you want to continue to follow Rosenthal, et al, in believing in the PreWrath Rapture.   On the way up we will all know the truth.   But, I will stay with the PreTribulation Rapture and the PreMillennial Second Coming of Christ to establish His kingdom on earth.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
I took nothing out of context.   I quoted what I was answering to.  You've suggested books & links before that you think we should read.   When I ask a question, I sincerely want an answer, If I didn't, I wouldn't ask.

Hi Chick,

 

Just a suggestion.  If you truly want an answer to your questions, maybe you should make an effort to make your questions clearly understood.  When you take a snippet of words here, part of a sentence there -- most often taken out of context -- it is usually difficult to find a clear, concise question in all of it.

 

If you would quote the full statement which you are questioning -- I know that I could respond better and I am sure others could also.

 

So, the real question becomes -- do you REALLY want an answer?  Or are you just trying to make a statement by taking portions of our posts out of context -- in an attempt to make them appear to say what was not intended by the writer?

 

Give me a clear, honest question -- and, I promise I will give you an answer.  It most likely will not be the answer you like.  But, it will be a Biblical answer.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi GB,

 

In the Bible, Jesus tells us that NO ONE can know the day or hour of His return to Rapture His church.  He also tells us that He will return like a thief in the night.  In other words, He will return when NO ONE is expecting Him to come.  And, this does mean NO ONE, both believers and non-believers.   This is why He tells us that we must always be prepared so that we are not caught unprepared.

 

You may recall the story of the ten virgins, i.e., bridesmaids, who were invited to the wedding.  All are invited (John 3:16) -- but, not all will enter the wedding (be Raptured) for many are not ready.   They are not ready because they do not have a relationship with Christ. 

 

Five had oil for their lamps, five neglected to have sufficient oil.  When the Bridegroom came, those who were prepared (those with oil for their lamps, i.e., believers) were taken into the wedding; those who were not prepared, i.e., non-believers, missed the wedding.

 

This parable is speaking of the Rapture -- when the Bridegroom comes for His Bride, the body of believers.   Neither the five bridesmaids with oil (the believers) nor the five bridesmaids without oil (the non-believers) knew the day or time when the Bridegroom, Christ, would come.  You can read about this in Matthew 25.

 

Yes, we are given signs of His return, i.e., the return of Israel to its homeland, etc. -- but, still this does not allow anyone to set a day or time.   This is the teaching of imminence -- that no one can know the day or hour.

 

Yet, if the Rapture does not precede the Tribulation -- none of the above is true.  For man could most certainly set the day of His Rapture.  They would use the beginning of the Tribulation, i.e., the day that Israel signs a seven year peace accord with the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27) -- and determine the day of the Rapture.  This is negating all the Scripture which tells us that NO ONE can know the day.   No, my Friend, only a PreTribulation Rapture fits all Scripture.  

 

But, there is no problem if you want to continue to follow Rosenthal, et al, in believing in the PreWrath Rapture.   On the way up we will all know the truth.   But, I will stay with the PreTribulation Rapture and the PreMillennial Second Coming of Christ to establish His kingdom on earth.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Again Bill, and please feel free to reference any prior post of mine in this subject or any other where I discuss the Pre-wrath rapture that I in any way fashion or form specify an hour or day or state that this can be done?   If you then find where I have then please quote it and point it out otherwise QUIT addressing me and the forum as if I have done this.  Plainly I have not nor does the advocates of the pre-wrath position.  If anyone has attempted to set a time it's been folks like Camping a pre-trib advocate.  If anyone in this subject/forum has attempted to or come close to defining an hour/date it would be you when you made the incorrect claim that pre-wrath advocates say the rapture occurs 2/3rds of a way through the tribulation (7 year period as defined by pre-trib advocates).  

 

Either you have a comprehension problem in reading what I wrote or worse you deliberately out of a biased opinion continue to try and inject date setting into the pre-wrath discussion.  

 

I will try yet once again, third time I believe, under this topic,  and say the pre-wrath position considers Christ dialog to His disciples as explaining to them various defining signs that will precede His coming again, for His Church.  

 

In case you have forgotten the exact question that was ask of Christ I will repaste it form Matthew 24:3

 

Matthew 24:3 (NLT)
{3} Later, Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives. His disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will all this happen? What sign will signal your return and the end of the world?”

Note the latter part of the question .. "What sign will signal your return" to which Christ answered it immediately after.  My personal belief is that Christ added the wording about no one knowing the day or hour so that no one would then confuse signals preceding the rapture/His Coming and date setting or claiming to know the day/hour/time of it.  If there was no signals to be given or provided then Christ instructions to the disciples would have signified that right up front.  Note that in their, the disciples, question they did not ask the specific day or hour rather they ask what defining signs would precede the return so that those living in that day could know that the time was upon them.

 

Again Bill check out Luke 21:29-31

Luke 21:29-31 (NLT)
{29} Then he gave them this illustration: “Notice the fig tree, or any other tree.
{30} When the leaves come out, you know without being told that summer is near.
{31} In the same way, when you see all these things taking place, you can know that the Kingdom of God is near.

 

Read again 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 (NLT)
{1} Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters, we don’t really need to write you.
{2} For you know quite well that the day of the Lord’s return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
{3} When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
{4} But you aren’t in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won’t be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief.
{5} For you are all children of the light and of the day; we don’t belong to darkness and night.

Just what do you think Paul is talking about in the above referenced verses?  Who is Paul talking to in verse 4 where he informs them that "they" are not in the dark .. one hint .. he also calls them brothers and sisters?  I agree with you that Scripture is uniform across the text and does not have the supposed contradictions so what is true for Matthew is also true in 1 Thessalonians and one does not contradict the other.  Christ was talking about recognizing signs and not setting dates, Paul was not talking about setting dates either but being able to recognize what must come before the rapture happens and I am not attempting to set a date/hour/day.


Paul faced this yet again in his 2nd Letter to the Thessalonians.  People there were concerned that the Rapture had already happened and that they had been "left behind" so Paul answers them, in a letter, explaining more signs and things that have to happen BEFORE the actual Rapture and Christ 2nd Return.  Note one is that the Antichrist has to come first.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NLT)
{1} Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.
{2} Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
{3} Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. 
{4} He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.  (compare and see Matthew 24:15)
{5} Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you?

Again Bill where have I attempted to define a day/hour/date?   I haven't so why do you persist in replies that act as if I have?  Is there some agenda behind it or are you so pre-biased against the possibility that the Pre-Wrath teaching is the Scriptural one that you characteristically mis-define and mis-represent it as well as what I have attempted to say.  I have not attempted to set a day/hour/time so why do you reply as if I have?


Lastly, Bill, I have read Rosenthal's book and even wrote him about some problems I had with some of what he wrote but never received a reply from him.  If you, or anyone else, really wants to adequately assess the Pre-Wrath rapture from one of it's published advocates I recommend reading "Before God's Wrath", "The Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture" by H.L. Nigro. (ISBN 0-9704330-7-7) She handles the Pre-Wrath topic and position better than Rosenthal, at least in my opinion. 

Last edited by gbrk
quote:   Originally Posted by gbrk:
Again Bill, and please feel free to reference any prior post of mine in this subject or any other where I discuss the Pre-wrath rapture that I in any way fashion or form specify an hour or day or state that this can be done?   If you then find where I have then please quote it and point it out otherwise QUIT addressing me and the forum as if I have done this.  Plainly I have not nor does the advocates of the pre-wrath position

Hi GB,

 

I have never said that YOU have set a day or time.  However, the whole concept of a Rapture happening AFTER the beginning of the Tribulation, by default, is setting a day.   It does not matter if it is a MidTrib Rapture, a PostTrib Rapture, or a PreWrath Rapture.

 

According to the PreWrath Rapture concept -- the Rapture will occur 2/3 of the way through the seven year Tribulation.   So, once the Tribulation has begun -- anyone should be able to set the date of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ.  This totally negates the teaching of imminence we are taught in the Bible -- that NO ONE can know the day and hour (Matthew 24:36).

 

For the teaching of the Rapture to be imminent -- it MUST occur before the beginning of the Tribulation.

 

GB, just a suggestion.  If you would cut your use of colored text to only one, maybe two colors, along with black text -- it would make your writings much easier to read.  There are methods of formatting which can highlight or set-off special portions to which you want to draw attention -- without using so many colors.  I find this very distracting -- and it causes me to often not read your posts.   I believe you have lots to add to discussions and I would like to read what you write -- but, the multiple colors make my eyes begin to water.

 

(Okay, Chick and Jennifer, you can jump in with your caustic comments regarding that last paragraph now).

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi GB,

 

You tell me, "Lastly, Bill, I have read Rosenthal's book and even wrote him about some problems I had with some of what he wrote but never received a reply from him.  If you, or anyone else, really wants to adequately assess the Pre-Wrath rapture from one of it's published advocates I recommend reading "Before God's Wrath", "The Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture" by H.L. Nigro. (ISBN 0-9704330-7-7) She handles the Pre-Wrath topic and position better than Rosenthal, at least in my opinion."


I have Rosenthal's book "The Pre-Wrath Rapture Of The Church" and Robert Van Kampens book "The Sign" which also advocates a PreWrath Rapture.


Rosenthal's book mentions Matthew 24:36 -- but, then ignores the teaching of imminence.  According to his Pre-Wrath teaching -- the Rapture will occur exactly 5 1/4 year into the 7 year Tribulation.  How difficult will it be, at the beginning of the Tribulation, to count out 5 1/4 years and predict the day that the Rapture will occur?  This totally negates the teaching of imminence -- for man WILL be able to do what Harold Camping could not -- give the exact day.


Van Kampen's book is not as specific as Rosenthal's.  But, he does indicate that the Rapture will be within the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation.  So, according to Van Kampen, it could be at the 4 1/2 year mark, or the 5 year mark, etc.   Either way, like Rosenthal's theory of the PreWrath Rapture, this will allow anyone to predict the day of the Rapture.


And, if ANYONE can actually name the day -- this invalidates the teaching of imminence taught in Matthew 24:36.


As I wrote earlier, any eschatology which places the Rapture after the beginning of the Tribulation -- has to be in error.  Or Jesus was in error in Matthew 24:36.  Personally, I prefer to believe Jesus Christ.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


Bill

Problem is, Bill, with your interpretation of imminence as related to this discussion you say you believe Christ. Well I do as well and if your correct then there is a very real conflict existing in scripture between Paul's writings in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 or the Pre-Wrath interpretation is correct and Christ meant you can know the "season" when the rapture is upon mankind but not the exact day/hour. How does imminence fit in with what Paul taught the Church in Thessalonians 5:1-4 and again in 2 Thessalonians 2?
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Never fear, though, you Calvinists!  Bill will soon appear to tell us that those who "depart from the faith" never were really in the faith at all, or that "depart" does not really mean "depart," or that those who "depart" will return, since they can not possibly be lost in the ultimate sense. 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Most likely he'll have to make yet another thread to do it too. It's not just bill. Almost every "christian" that finds out a person is an atheist, but claims to be a former believer, swears that person never actually believed. Cause after all, who would "throw away" something so wonderful as gawd!!! They don't like my argument that it must mean that they don't truly believe, because after all, what they are saying is that a person's mind never changes. So there is no way they can come to believe if it's not possible for someone to come to a non-belief.

___________________________________________________________________________

That's because your "argument" doesn't make one bit of sense. You see, there is this little thing called "logic" that you tend to eschew in favor of nastiness. LOGIC says that just because all maples are trees doesn't mean that all trees are maple. In the same way, just because a person can't change their mind about one specific thing, does NOT mean that people NEVER change their minds about ANYTHING. Of course you KNEW that, but that doesn't prevent you from repeating the same erroneous statement over and over agian. The fact that everyone here KNOWS your statement is ridiculous doesn't seem to stop you though. Don't you ever get tired of living in that hate filled, illogical mind?

 

 
TO CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION
 
Contrary to the impression created by O No!'s post, above, the first 3 lines below were written by me, Contendah, and they had nothing to do with Christians recanting their faith and becoming atheists! Bestworking  incorrectly  extended the content of my post to allegedly apply to this kind of "conversion."  My comments referred solely to persons who became Christians and then departed from the faith, i.e. "once saved, later lost," as contrasted with the un-Biblical Calvinist  doctrine of "once saved, always saved". I made no reference to atheism, directly or indirectly.
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Never fear, though, you Calvinists!  Bill will soon appear to tell us that those who "depart from the faith" never were really in the faith at all, or that "depart" does not really mean "depart," or that those who "depart" will return, since they can not possibly be lost in the ultimate sense. 

 

------------------------------------------------

 

Most likely he'll have to make yet another thread to do it too. It's not just bill. Almost every "christian" that finds out a person is an atheist, but claims to be a former believer, swears that person never actually believed. Cause after all, who would "throw away" something so wonderful as gawd!!! They don't like my argument that it must mean that they don't truly believe, because after all, what they are saying is that a person's mind never changes. So there is no way they can come to believe if it's not possible for someone to come to a non-belief.

___________________________________________________________________________

That's because your "argument" doesn't make one bit of sense. You see, there is this little thing called "logic" that you tend to eschew in favor of nastiness. LOGIC says that just because all maples are trees doesn't mean that all trees are maple. In the same way, just because a person can't change their mind about one specific thing, does NOT mean that people NEVER change their minds about ANYTHING. Of course you KNEW that, but that doesn't prevent you from repeating the same erroneous statement over and over agian. The fact that everyone here KNOWS your statement is ridiculous doesn't seem to stop you though. Don't you ever get tired of living in that hate filled, illogical mind?

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

Just a suggestion.  If you truly want an answer to your questions, maybe you should make an effort to make your questions clearly understood.  When you take a snippet of words here, part of a sentence there -- most often taken out of context -- it is usually difficult to find a clear, concise question in all of it.

If you would quote the full statement which you are questioning -- I know that I could respond better and I am sure others could also.

So, the real question becomes -- do you REALLY want an answer?  Or are you just trying to make a statement by taking portions of our posts out of context -- in an attempt to make them appear to say what was not intended by the writer?

 

Give me a clear, honest question -- and, I promise I will give you an answer.  It most likely will not be the answer you like.  But, it will be a Biblical answer.

 Bill

__________________________

I'll say it one more time cause you evidently didn't get it. I quote the part in which I am replying to. Why quote an entire paragraph if I'm only interested in replying to one line of the paragraph?

 

And still again!  When I ask a question, I sincerely want an answer. If I didn't, I wouldn't ask. If you can't understand a clear honest question, that's your problem. It's certainly not mine.

Any answer you give, I most likely won't like.  Any biblical answer you give is nothing more than your opinion. Your word is not written in stone, though you may like for it to be.

 

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