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lots of people post lots of stuff giving good examples of the bad side of religion, but there are rarely any posts that can be taken seriously of people doing something worthwhile while invoking the name of god.


i found this, something i thought was a good example of proper christian behavior, and thought i'd share it.

tho, i will admit, if you removed god and religion from the situation, it still works out to be good and decent human action. what they are doing would still be the right thing, whether they do it in god's name or not.

but they are doing it, as an example of how they believe god wants us to conduct ourselves, to combat an example of evil and hatred done in god's name.

anyway - make of it what you will.


Never Underestimate the Power of Human Stupidity



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Hi Nagel,


While some, or maybe even many, of those bikers may not be believers -- they are sharing God's Word and showing God's love through their actions.   I say, "God bless those bikers!"


And, I ask people to pray for those people from the Westboro Baptist Church -- for they truly have gone over the edge and are not only offending the family and friends of those who have fallen to protect our country -- they are offending all decent Americans -- and, I have no doubt -- they are offending God.


Thank you, Nagel, for sharing this video with us.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,



pray for westboro?

well, i do. i pray that an EF5 tornado will hit their church on a sunday morning during a full service.

then, i pray for a 8.5 earthquake to open up a hole in the earth just large enough to swallow all that remains of the place before it closes back over.

then i pray for a deluge, to wash away the stench of the their occupation of that section of the earth.

then i pray that the next spring, the whole place will be covered with millions of forget-me-nots, to remind people what happens when you commit actions of evil in the name of god.


acctually, bill, i posted this because i wanted people to see that there are good and decent people out there who call themselves Christian, to show them there are other examples of christianity than the bile you spew forth.

you give christians a bad name. i hoped to show people there are better examples to go by, so they could ignore your hate and ignorance.

you are no better than the westboro clan.


Nagel, as far as I know it is not a requirement to be a "christian" to be a PGR though I'm sure most of them are. We know quite a few of them around the Quad-Cities area. When you see a motorcycle look for the decal on the windsheild of the bike, especially those big GoldWings. I'm like you-I'd love to see the westboro "church" get it's payback. I couldn't ride PG, I'd be all over the a**holes. I wonder how big the town of westboro is, and how they feel about the "church".

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

While some, or maybe even many, of those bikers may not be believers -- they are sharing God's Word and showing God's love through their actions.   I say, "God bless those bikers!"




Ignoring for the moment that Westborro is simply voicing the same hatred that you spew on this forum daily, do you think this athiest group is also doing the work of god?  


quote:    Originally Posted by Jennifer:

No bill, they aren't "sharing god's words." They're showing just what we've been saying, you can do good things without a god.

Hi Jennifer,


That is true, my Friend -- BUT, you cannot have eternal life without God.  And, which is better -- getting a pat on the back and a big "Atta girl!" from fellow atheists -- or having the security of eternal life?  Personally, I would go for assuring my eternal reservations first -- and then, spend time doing good deeds.   You will find this to be much more productive -- and eternally more pleasant.


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,



I don't do good deeds to get an "atta girl". I do them because it's the right thing to do for others. So sad for you that the only way you can get an "atta boy" is to give it to yourself. Since death is the end of us all I'll do my good deeds without wasting time worrying about a mythical "afterlife" thank you.

Personally, I would go for assuring my eternal reservations first -- and then, spend time doing good deeds.




Bill you claim you've been "saved" or whatever since the early 80s, yet you still worry about your "eternal reservations"? Sounds like to me like you're still trying to convince yourself.

Hi Firenze,

Why would you say that being a born-again Christian is a redundancy?    Jesus tells us, in John 3:3, ". . . unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."   And, then, He explains, in John 3:5, ". . .unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

What does this mean?  First, we have our physical birth from our mother's womb.  But, we still are only two dimensional beings --  body and soul.  Spiritually we are still dead.  Without restoring our spiritual connection with God, which we lost with the fall of Adam, we are not complete.

So, how do we become born-again spiritually?  Jesus tells us we must be born of the water and the Spirit.   Of course, we know that by the Spirit, He means the Holy Spirit.  We need the workings of the Holy Spirit within us to regain our spiritual connection with God.

But, He also said to be born of the water -- what water?  Many times in the Bible, the Word of God, i.e., Scripture, is referred to as Living Water and Water of Life.  So, this is telling us that through the Written Word of God, with the workings of the Holy Spirit -- we can become born-again Christians.   

Some will say that this reference to water refers to baptism.  However, one is not baptized UNTIL after he/she becomes a born-again believer.  So, the salvation which makes us a born again believer cannot be the water of baptism -- since that happens later.  Since the water baptism occurs AFTER we are saved -- that cannot be the cause of our salvation.  Baptism is a result of our salvation; not the cause.  This "water" has to be the Word of God.

And, some will say that infant baptism makes one a Christian.  Last Sunday, my wife and I attended an infant baptism -- and, quite honestly, that young infant had no idea who Christ is -- or why some guy in a robe poured water on her head.   The parents were happy and blessed, we all had fun and good food, but the child was still just the same child as before -- with the same sin nature and with no spiritual connection with God restored. 


That child, as beautiful as she is, as loved as she is -- is still not a Christian believer.  How can she be?  She has no idea what she should believe.  All she knows is -- give me my bottle on time, change my  diapers when I poo, cuddle me and keep me warm and loved.  That is her world.  Right now, Jesus Christ is an unknown to her.

Does saying that one must be "born of the water and Spirit to be born again" conflict or contradict what we are taught in Ephesians 2:8-9?  "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

No, not at all, it ties in perfectly with John 3.  While we Christians will evangelize people -- only the Holy Spirit can bring them to salvation.  And, how is this all done, the evangelizing, the preparation of seekers to receive the Holy Spirit's urgings and leading?   Through the Written Word of God, the Bible -- where we find Ephesians 2:8-9 and many other Scripture verses and passages which tell us about God, Jesus Christ, and the salvation He has purchased with His blood -- for all who will, by grace, through faith --  believe and receive this precious gift.

So, yes, my Friend -- through the Living Water, the Word of God -- and the Holy Spirit; people become born-again Christian  believers.  What is redundant about that?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


quote:  Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

1. One must be born again in order to become a Christian. Agree?

2. Ergo, there are no Christians who have not been born again. Agree?

3. Ergo, the expression "born again Christian" is comparable to saying "My neighbor just gave birth to two twins."  Agree?

Hi Firenze,

You have me!  I agree with your thinking.   I suppose my mind was a wee bit skewed, thinking of several events which happened before I became a Christian.  My wife had given me a medallion from the Garden Grove Community Church (which became the Crystal Cathedral) and I wore it because she gave it to me -- not because I was a believer.

One day I was in the lobby of a company to make a sales call.  While waiting, there was a lady talking with the security guard.   When she saw my medallion, she got excited and said, "Oh, you are a born again Christian!"   And, not really being a Christian, and  believing this label "born again" was something the young 1960s Hippies For Jesus coined -- I declared, "No, just a Christian!"    Actually, I was far from being a Christian then; but, in my confused mind at the time -- I related being born in Alabama, attending the  Baptist church while in high school, and being a good guy (at least, in my eyes) -- related to being a Christian.  Wrong!

Several times I did attend the Garden Grove Community Church and found that the number two pastor, Dr. Ledesma, was a very likable person.  I respected him.  Although I still was not a Christian.

Fast forward a year or two and I was on a flight from San Jose to Orange County -- and the lady I sat and talked with was Dr. Ledesma's wife.  She, too, noticed my medallion -- and, I explained to her that I wore it only because my wife gave it to me -- not that I was a supporter of Robert Schuller.

As we were walking off the plane, she was behind me.  The flight attendant noticed my medallion and said, "Oh, you are a  Christian."  I just smiled and walked off the plane.  As we were walking across the tarmac to the terminal, Mrs. Ledesma smiled and told me, "As long as you wear that medallion, you are a witness whether you want to be or not."

Little did I know then that, about seven years later -- her prediction would turn into reality -- and I became a born again Christian with a strong desire to be a witness and share the Gospel with others.   So, maybe God was using me, without my knowledge, during those years.  After all, His thoughts are much higher than ours.  So, the Bible tells us.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


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