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Hi to all my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "A Forum Friend Accuses Pastor Chuck Smith Of Heresy!" my Friend, B50, has suggested a number of Pastor Chuck Smith's books

She writes, "Yes. Chuck Smith has a number of speculative End Times books. Some of these include:

* Dateline Earth - Countdown to Eternity
* End times - a report on future survival
* The Final Curtain - Prophetical Events Leading to the Second Coming
* The Last Days - The Middle East and the Book of Revelation
* Snatched Away!
* What The World Is Coming To


B50, that is a good list. Have you read any on these books? I have read "What The World Is Coming To" as well as his "The Final Act" - "The Tribulation Of The Church" - and "The Rapture" - and found nothing in any of them that would be considered bad theology.

You call his books speculative. Why? Have you read any and know for yourself that this is true? Or, are you parroting what some dissatisfied, disgruntled person has written about his books. I have always found the best way to judge another's writings -- is to FIRST, read what he/she has written -- and then decide if I agree or not. Reading what an agitator on the Forum or a disgruntled ex-church member may have written -- and basing your thought upon that, is not very convincing.

As I told Beter, Pastor Chuck has never been my pastor; but, I have watched his progress and the amazing growth of Calvary Chapel under this guidance over the past 23 years. And, I can say that, what I have seen has most certainly been a movement of the Holy Spirit. For, when Chuck Smith took over at Calvary Chapel in 1965, they had one small church with about 20 members. Today they have over 1100 Calvary Chapel churches around the world -- many of them large enough to be called megachurches. Under his guidance they have started several radio broadcast networks, and they have a number of Bible colleges and many K-12 schools.

All of this from the simple start in 1965. None of this came from going on television and asking people to send money. It has not come from soliciting money from people. As a matter of fact, for many years at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (and they may still do it, I am not sure) they did not even take up an offering at the church services. They had a basket in the back of the church -- and whoever wanted to put money in the basket could do so as they entered or left the sanctuary. But, no ushers passed the hat for donation and offerings.

When the church was fairly young and needed to build a larger facility -- a private donor came to Pastor Chuck and offered to give one million dollars to the church. Pastor Chuck refused his offer -- for he wanted no person to have that kind of influence in Calvary Chapel.

In the late 1960s, when the church was young and and Orange County had a big population of Hippies -- many of them began to attend Calvary Chapel -- barefoot and wearing tie dye shirts and bell bottoms. The church had just installed new carpets and some of the older members went to Pastor Chuck complaining about the Hippies walking on their new carpet with their dirty feet.

Guess what Pastor Chuck told the older members? "If they are getting your new carpets dirty with their bare feet -- let's remove the carpet."

He has never been my pastor -- but, I can assure you this. You will never find a more down to earth, humble, Godly man -- than Chuck Smith. I do not agree with everything he says and teaches -- but, he has a solid conservative theology and on all Essential Christian Doctrines -- he and I are in total agreement.

So, B50, if you will read some of his books -- I can promise you that you will be taught good, solid theology. A book you might want to start with is "What The World Is Coming To" which is a good simple language commentary on the book of Revelation. And, another you might find interesting is "The Final Act" which is a good study of the End Times in narrative form.

And, if you are really interested in learning about the history of Calvary Chapel and how this amazing ministry began and grew -- read the book "Harvest" by Chuck Smith and Tal Brooke. This is the personal story of the beginning of Calvary Chapel and includes the story of how ten young men from the least likely backgrounds -- became ten of the early, very effective Calvary Chapel pastors. One of those ten is Greg Laurie who came from a very dysfunctional home (mom married and divorced six times) and was a drug user -- until God led him to Calvary Chapel. This is a great book.

You can find these books and many more resources at the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa Bookstore:
http://www.thechapelstore.com/...9c99519e602cba6c6000

or at: The Word For Today: http://twft.com/?page=Home.Main

B50, read those books; then let's discuss Pastor Chuck Smith, Calvary Chapel, and his theology. But, until you have some first hand knowledge of what he teaches -- how can we have a dialogue?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Oh,how I wish there could be a limit on the length of posts on here. Mr. Bill,I am a Christian but I do not indulge myself in your full page "ads". It just is not necessary nor is it interesting after about at least half a page. I venture to say you could make your point in a lot fewer words. I know I could. Are you a big talker too? I'm thinking taht answer will be YES!. Hvae a good day and God Bless You.
Hi Sandy,

For some folks, the Bible is too long also. I do imagine that many would be happy if the Bible consisted of only Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21 -- and cut out all that writing in between. I know our Friend Deep would love that.

As Louis Armstrong sang, "You like potato and I like potahto, You like tomato and I like tomahto
Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off

But oh, if we call the whole thing off Then we must part
And oh, if we ever part, then that might break my heart"


I have a Friend n Arizona who has been on my Friends Ministry mail list for many years -- and complains if any writing is more that two sentences long. Yet, I have many more who tell me, "Bill, don't change a thing."

So, Sandy, the solution: Read what interests you -- then, move on. Who knows, maybe someone else will find a "golden nugget" hidden in another part.

"Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto" -- whatever rings your bell!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I don't have a problem with the Bile. I can totally understand it. You see, it isn't written in puzzles and riddles as are your posts, Mr. Bill. The Bible rings my bell. I'll continue to read and study it. Your posts are annoying. I don't read them. I have to scroll for several seconds to get past them.My priority. Still wish the forum would limit characters. Now you have a blessed day, anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by sandybeaches:
I don't have a problem with the Bile. I can totally understand it. You see, it isn't written in puzzles and riddles as are your posts, Mr. Bill. The Bible rings my bell. I'll continue to read and study it. Your posts are annoying. I don't read them. I have to scroll for several seconds to get past them.My priority. Still wish the forum would limit characters. Now you have a blessed day, anyway.


SB.

I really like a sandy beach.
quote:
Originally posted by sandybeaches:
I don't have a problem with the Bile. I can totally understand it. You see, it isn't written in puzzles and riddles as are your posts, Mr. Bill. The Bible rings my bell. I'll continue to read and study it. Your posts are annoying. I don't read them. I have to scroll for several seconds to get past them.My priority. Still wish the forum would limit characters. Now you have a blessed day, anyway.

Hi Sandy,

First, one wee correction, I think. You said "Bile" -- but, I am hoping you meant "Bible." The first, bile, would be a "digestive juice" -- and, metaphorically, could be useful in helping one "digest" the Word of God. I am afraid our atheist Friends will choose the less common meaning of bile -- bitterness of spirit, anger. So, just to avoid confusion -- let's stay with talking about the "Bible."

With that out of the way -- I am so happy that you are studying the Bible. As long as you are sincerely studying the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God already -- then, by all means, put me on Ignore. My feelings will not be hurt in the least -- and this will speed your scrolling time as you scoot from one three sentence post to the next three sentence post.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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So, according to Bill Gray, the numerical factors--numbers of churches, Bible colleges, radio ministries, etc.--confirm that the labors of Chuck Smith are the product of the Holy Spirit.

Here is something the Bible says about "numbers."

"13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Numbers don't prove godliness or faithfulness to His word. Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost to do the same thing that Peter told the lost to do in Acts 2:38? Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost what Ananias told Paul to do in Acts 22:16? Or does Pastor Chuck Smith simply parrot the deadly, un-scriptural notion that one must only say some kind of "sinner's prayer" and "ask Jesus to come into your heart"?
Last edited by beternU
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
So, according to Bill Gray, the numerical factors--numbers of churches, Bible collegeg (sic), radio ministries, etc.--confirm that the labors of Chuck Smith are the product of the Holy Spirit.

Numbers don't prove godliness or faithfulness to His word. Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost to do the same thing that Peter told the lost to do in Acts 2:38? Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost what Ananias told Paul to do in Acts 22:16? Or does Pastor Chuck Smith simply parrot the deadly, un-scriptural notion that one must only say some kind of "sinner's prayer" and "ask Jesus to come into your heart"?

Hi Beter,

Assuming you have a church -- how many churches has your church planted? How many have, by grace, through faith, been saved in your church?

How do you measure the "spiritual growth" in your church?

You seem to dislike all conservative theology pastors and teachers. Who DO YOU like? Who DO YOU believe to be a good pastor/teacher?

I am sincerely interested in reading your answers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
So, according to Bill Gray, the numerical factors--numbers of churches, Bible collegeg (sic), radio ministries, etc.--confirm that the labors of Chuck Smith are the product of the Holy Spirit.

Numbers don't prove godliness or faithfulness to His word. Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost to do the same thing that Peter told the lost to do in Acts 2:38? Does Pastor Chuck Smith tell the lost what Ananias told Paul to do in Acts 22:16? Or does Pastor Chuck Smith simply parrot the deadly, un-scriptural notion that one must only say some kind of "sinner's prayer" and "ask Jesus to come into your heart"?

Hi Beter,

Assuming you have a church -- how many churches has your church planted? How many have, by grace, through faith, been saved in your church?

How do you measure the "spiritual growth" in your church?

You seem to dislike all conservative theology pastors and teachers. Who DO YOU like? Who DO YOU believe to be a good pastor/teacher?

I am sincerely interested in reading your answers.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine. I have no idea why you think that I dislike all conservative theology, since "my" theology is more conservative than yours. I take ALL of God's word to be true. I defend the Biblical position on issues like "eternal security" and the purpose of baptism against the distorted theology that you and others bring to those subjects. You have yet to defend "Eternal security" against the clear and powerful teaching of II Peter 2: I gotcha "eternal security" right heah, Bill. Read it and pay special attention to the highlighted portions and then try to tell me that a saved person can not be lost:

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15Which have forsaken the right way, {can't 'forsake' something, Bill, without having first accepted it]and are gone astray[/B][can't go 'astray, Bill,without having first been where one should be] following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20For [B]if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ[/B],[These obviously are persons who at one time "escaped," but who returned to the 'pollutions of the world."] the they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and [B]the sow that was washed
to her wallowing in the mire.[Washing signifies cleansing, Bill, and the obvious allusion is that these miscreants Peter was describing had indeed once been cleansed of sin, but now had returned to their former lives of willful sinning]

See how theologically conservative I am, Bill. I take the Word for what it says. You cherry-pick your Bible and torque passages to extract meaning that is just not there. You have often run from the truth about "eternal security" but you can't hide from the inspired apostolic teaching so clearly set forth by Brother Peter.

I would advise you to follow the apostolic teaching on this point and to thereby enhance the conservatism of YOUR theology!
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
15Which have forsaken the right way, {can't 'forsake' something, Bill, without having first accepted it]and are gone astray[/B][can't go 'astray, Bill,without having first been where one should be] following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

20For [B]if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ[/B],[These obviously are persons who at one time "escaped," but who returned to the 'pollutions of the world."] the they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and [B]the sow that was washed
to her wallowing in the mire.[Washing signifies cleansing, Bill, and the obvious allusion is that these miscreants Peter was describing had indeed once been cleansed of sin, but now had returned to their former lives of willful sinning]


You've brought up some great stuff here, but as you know, Bill won't answer to any of it. When pushed into a corner, he turns tale & runs. We'll probably see another topic started with you as the star.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter,

I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
y
Hall of Famer
Picture of Bill Gray

Posted 05 September 2010 01:41 PM Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.


Hi Beter,

I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


My, my Bill are so shook up you can't respond.
just a few days ago you gave me a big amen after a post that said on the day of judgement there will not be any "church's" names mentioned.

Now beternU has shook up your whole world and your only responce, was that he couldn't answer a question.

Boy, you need to go back to your Pastor Chuck and tell him y'all have been ratted out.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter,

I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


If anyone is wiggling, Bill, it is you.

What matters in this discussion are the specific issues concerning the Word of God and the scripturally-described plan of God for ther salvation of man. You just breezed by the issues I have raised in detail and with particularity, and "all ouf Forum Friends" can see that. You simply have no credible response to what I posted on your flawed doctrine of "eternal security," because you can not successfully refute the clear and potent teaching of the inspired Apostle Peter on that subject. It is time for you to wave the white flag on that one, Bill, and adjust your theological position one notch closer to Arminianism.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter,

I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

If anyone is wiggling, Bill, it is you.

Hi Beter,

It is "wiggling and squirming" for you said that what my church teaches is wrong. So, I have asked you to tell us what YOUR church teaches on salvation and eternal life.

Simple. If my church is wrong -- then share what YOUR church teaches and maybe I will switch. Sounds fair to me.

But, of course, you will not answer.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter,

I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

If anyone is wiggling, Bill, it is you.

Hi Beter,

It is "wiggling and squirming" for you said that what my church teaches is wrong. So, I have asked you to tell us what YOUR church teaches on salvation and eternal life.

Simple. If my church is wrong -- then share what YOUR church teaches and maybe I will switch. Sounds fair to me.

But, of course, you will not answer.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill, this might be difficult for you to understand, but everything that I have posted here is in firm agreement with with what my fellow Christians--with whom I have met met regularly for over 30 year to praise and worship God--believe and teach about salvation and eternal life. I do not ask you to accept or justify what any "church teaches." I ask you to either accept the clear teaching of scripture--which I have set forth above--relative to salvation and eternal life or to say why you do not accept it.

I refer, in particular, to the teaching in II Peter 2 that I have very thoroughly explicated, above, to fully set out why I believe that it teaches that a saved person can sin so as to be lost. I could wish that you would be as thorough in your response, but so far you have made no response at all. I must therefore conclude that you have no credible response.

If you are as committed to the truth of the Word as you claim to be, and if you truly believe that the passage in question does NOT teach what I have said it teaches, then you should have already offered your position in the matter. Unfortunately, you have not.
quote:
I refer, in particular, to the teaching in II Peter 2 that I have very thoroughly explicated, above, to fully set out why I believe that it teaches that a saved person can sin so as to be lost. I could wish that you would be as thorough in your response, but so far you have made no response at all. I must therefore conclude that you have no credible response.


Because to respond to this would blow apart the "once saved always saved" and "invisible sinfulness" theories to which he clings.
We CAN be lost to sin. The prodigal son story shows this quite simply. as does 2Peter. And so, so many more Scripture passages.
But, they are all trumped by the Bill with the "Believe and you will have eternal life"...

Where in the bible does it say that one verse has "trumping power" over another? There are many more verses to refute "osas" than to claim it as truth.
Bro. Bill ,

While I do not agree with some stuff you post; I agree you have the right to say it contrary to the cackling to the contrary.

I sincerely hope you never let it hinder you from your appointed way.

Your right to posit or reply must be held by us, sacred , even at a cost to these humanist at bay, whose mission is to destroy it not preserve.
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Bro. Bill ,

While I do not agree with some stuff you post; I agree you have the right to say it contrary to the cackling to the contrary.

I sincerely hope you never let it hinder you from your appointed way.

Your right to posit or reply must be held by us, sacred , even at a cost to these humanist at bay, whose mission is to destroy it not preserve.


You can hold Bill's post/reply's as sacred as you please, but don't use the word US .
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Bro. Bill ,

While I do not agree with some stuff you post; I agree you have the right to say it contrary to the cackling to the contrary.

I sincerely hope you never let it hinder you from your appointed way.

Your right to posit or reply must be held by us, sacred , even at a cost to these humanist at bay, whose mission is to destroy it not preserve.


You can hold Bill's post/reply's as sacred as you please, but don't use the word US .


Jank dear,

You will never, at the level of intelligence I have reckoned regarding you, convince me I’m wrong in holding that any position of Bro Bill, is of no consequence to you and you as most females excel, are faking for the entertainment of others.
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Bro. Bill ,

While I do not agree with some stuff you post; I agree you have the right to say it contrary to the cackling to the contrary.

I sincerely hope you never let it hinder you from your appointed way.

Your right to posit or reply must be held by us, sacred , even at a cost to these humanist at bay, whose mission is to destroy it not preserve.


quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick :
You can hold Bill's post/reply's as sacred as you please, but don't use the word US .


quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Jank dear,

You will never, at the level of intelligence I have reckoned regarding you, convince me I’m wrong in holding that any position of Bro Bill, is of no consequence to you and you as most females excel, are faking for the entertainment of others.


Uh...excuse me...that wasn't Jank that said that. Razzer
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
Bro. Bill ,

While I do not agree with some stuff you post; I agree you have the right to say it contrary to the cackling to the contrary.

I sincerely hope you never let it hinder you from your appointed way.

Your right to posit or reply must be held by us, sacred , even at a cost to these humanist at bay, whose mission is to destroy it not preserve.


You can hold Bill's post/reply's as sacred as you please, but don't use the word US .


Jank dear,

You will never, at the level of intelligence I have reckoned regarding you, convince me I’m wrong in holding that any position of Bro Bill, is of no consequence to you and you as most females excel, are faking for the entertainment of others.


I think you have been in the sun too long buffy (thx again RP). You are addressing me and quoting Semi.

As for faking....if you ever start that you never get what you really want. I never fake. You get what you see. I'm sure in your experience that has not been the case.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter,

I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill



An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray.

I must profess that I felt beter did answer the question. To me, his statement implied that he is of the opinion that Jesus is the founder of all churches and should be given the credit-not man. Considering that it is also my opinion, I am curious as to how that is wrong.

I will also confess that I am of the opinion that "wiggling" is occuring here, however I do not feel that it is beter engaging in that act.
quote:
Originally posted by uwsoftball:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU: I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter, I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray.

I must profess that I felt beter did answer the question. To me, his statement implied that he is of the opinion that Jesus is the founder of all churches and should be given the credit - not man. Considering that it is also my opinion, I am curious as to how that is wrong.

I will also confess that I am of the opinion that "wiggling" is occurring here, however I do not feel that it is beter engaging in that act.

Hi UW,

If that UW stands for University of Washington; I love the Seattle area. It's a great place to visit and to live. If it means Wisconsin, too hot and humid in the summer and too much white stuff on the ground in the winter.

Regarding who founded the Christian church -- I am with you 1000% -- Jesus Christ. He began its first teachings; His Holy Spirit initiated the first body of Christ on the Day of Pentecost; and His Written Word gives us His full revelation for our salvation and to guide us in our daily Christian walk.

That is obviously what you believe -- so, we are in agreement. But, to be honest, I am not sure what Beter believes. Last year, he declared that he is on the Religion Forum for one purpose -- TO ARGUE. And, he has proven his point.

I do not read most of his posts because they tend to be one very long paragraph. He seems to have missed that part of English Comp which teaches about paragraphs -- and that a paragraph is not supposed to be book length.

Yes, my writings tend to often be long -- but, I do put a great deal of effort into making them readable. I do this with shorter and to the point paragraphs; not long rambling, page length paragraphs. This is something I learned, not only in English Comp, but, also by reading newspapers and magazines. You will notice this is their method also to keep the readers attention: short, to the point paragraphs.

You tell me, "An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray."

Are you speaking of Beter's challenge regarding 2 Peter 2 -- or has he issued more challenges?

By the way, since I have not dialogued with you before -- welcome to the Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by uwsoftball:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU: I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter, I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray.

I must profess that I felt beter did answer the question. To me, his statement implied that he is of the opinion that Jesus is the founder of all churches and should be given the credit - not man. Considering that it is also my opinion, I am curious as to how that is wrong.

I will also confess that I am of the opinion that "wiggling" is occurring here, however I do not feel that it is beter engaging in that act.

Hi UW,

If that UW stands for University of Washington; I love the Seattle area. It's a great place to visit and to live. If it means Wisconsin, too hot and humid in the summer and too much white stuff on the ground in the winter.

Regarding who founded the Christian church -- I am with you 1000% -- Jesus Christ. He began its first teachings; His Holy Spirit initiated the first body of Christ on the Day of Pentecost; and His Written Word gives us His full revelation for our salvation and to guide us in our daily Christian walk.

That is obviously what you believe -- so, we are in agreement. But, to be honest, I am not sure what Beter believes. Last year, he declared that he is on the Religion Forum for one purpose -- TO ARGUE. And, he has proven his point.

I do not read most of his posts because they tend to be one very long paragraph. He seems to have missed that part of English Comp which teaches about paragraphs -- and that a paragraph is not supposed to be book length.

Yes, my writings tend to often be long -- but, I do put a great deal of effort into making them readable. I do this with shorter and to the point paragraphs; not long rambling, page length paragraphs. This is something I learned, not only in English Comp, but, also by reading newspapers and magazines. You will notice this is their method also to keep the readers attention: short, to the point paragraphs.

You tell me, "An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray."

Are you speaking of Beter's challenge regarding 2 Peter 2 -- or has he issued more challenges?

By the way, since I have not dialogued with you before -- welcome to the Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill you are so full of it that your eyes have turned brown.

BeternU's two posts in this thread contained paragraphs - shorter and more succinct than those in this posting.

Have a blissed day, Bill.
Sorry Mr. Gray, but UW stands for Underwood. A great little community located North of Florence.

As far as additional challenges, forgive me, but I thought you asked:

"Hi Beter,

Assuming you have a church -- how many churches has your church planted? How many have, by grace, through faith, been saved in your church?

How do you measure the "spiritual growth" in your church?

You seem to dislike all conservative theology pastors and teachers. Who DO YOU like? Who DO YOU believe to be a good pastor/teacher?

I am sincerely interested in reading your answers"

To which I thought beter had replied and answered. Forgive me if I have become confused by it all.
quote:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by uwsoftball:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU: I don't "have a church," Bill. Jesus has a church; it is His church, not mine.

Hi Beter, I do believe we call this "wiggling." You, I, and all of our Forum Friends know exactly what I was asking. But, if you cannot answer, not a problem. Before I was involved in a church, I could not have answered that question either.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray.

I must profess that I felt beter did answer the question. To me, his statement implied that he is of the opinion that Jesus is the founder of all churches and should be given the credit - not man. Considering that it is also my opinion, I am curious as to how that is wrong.

I will also confess that I am of the opinion that "wiggling" is occurring here, however I do not feel that it is beter engaging in that act.

Hi UW,

If that UW stands for University of Washington; I love the Seattle area. It's a great place to visit and to live. If it means Wisconsin, too hot and humid in the summer and too much white stuff on the ground in the winter.

Regarding who founded the Christian church -- I am with you 1000% -- Jesus Christ. He began its first teachings; His Holy Spirit initiated the first body of Christ on the Day of Pentecost; and His Written Word gives us His full revelation for our salvation and to guide us in our daily Christian walk.

That is obviously what you believe -- so, we are in agreement. But, to be honest, I am not sure what Beter believes. Last year, he declared that he is on the Religion Forum for one purpose -- TO ARGUE. And, he has proven his point.

I do not read most of his posts because they tend to be one very long paragraph. He seems to have missed that part of English Comp which teaches about paragraphs -- and that a paragraph is not supposed to be book length.

Yes, my writings tend to often be long -- but, I do put a great deal of effort into making them readable. I do this with shorter and to the point paragraphs; not long rambling, page length paragraphs. This is something I learned, not only in English Comp, but, also by reading newspapers and magazines. You will notice this is their method also to keep the readers attention: short, to the point paragraphs.

You tell me, "An inquiring mind from lurkerville is curious as to what the answer really is Mr. Gray."

Are you speaking of Beter's challenge regarding 2 Peter 2 -- or has he issued more challenges?

By the way, since I have not dialogued with you before -- welcome to the Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Bill you are so full of it that your eyes have turned brown.

BeternU's two posts in this thread contained paragraphs - shorter and more succinct than those in this posting.

Have a blissed day, Bill.


None of what you posted will impress Birther Bill. He has created his own comfortable micro-environment. In Bill's synthetic dream world, he is at liberty to post detailed analytical presentations of his opinions, insisting on the correctness of his views. But Bill is so blinded to reality that he does not realize that when he does so, he is presenting ARGUMENTS, all the while condemning me for "ARGUING.".

Bill is doing that very same thing that he condemns me for doing. Isn't there a name for that kind of attitude?

When Bill--in his crabbed and narrow view of polemics--ARGUES, that is desirable, permissible, positive and commendable. When someone else ARGUES (i.e. states the basis for his/her beliefs--and especially when they challenge Bill's views and he can't or won't muster a credible response), that becomes somehow objectionable.

So goes the distorted little world of Birther Bill Gray.

SO--time marches on and Bill remains silent. But the longer that silence continues, the more it looks as though Bill really has no defense against the clear, strong and unambiguous teaching of II Peter 2 on the matter of eternal security.

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