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A Philosopher of Religion Calls it Quits

"When philosophy professor Keith Parsons posted an announcement on his blog, The Secular Outpost, explaining why he had decided to abandon philosophy of religion, he expected only his handful of regular readers to take notice. After a decade teaching philosophy of religion at the University of Houston, during which time he founded the philosophy of religion journal Philo and published over twenty books and articles in the field, Parsons hung up his hat on September 1:

I have to confess that I now regard “the case for theism” as a fraud and I can no longer take it seriously enough to present it to a class as a respectable philosophical position—no more than I could present intelligent design as a legitimate biological theory. BTW, in saying that I now consider the case for theism to be a fraud, I do not mean to charge that the people making that case are frauds who aim to fool us with claims they know to be empty. No, theistic philosophers and apologists are almost painfully earnest and honest... I just cannot take their arguments seriously any more, and if you cannot take something seriously, you should not try to devote serious academic attention to it."

Interesting reading. Including the "metaphysical intuitions" part toward the bottom which seems to align closely to what I think about why certain people are necessarily non-religious and religious. I hope most people on the board wont take this to be the typical "anti" story that is often posted. You don't have to agree with professor Parsons in order to get something from this story.

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It's impossible to speak with force in a muffled voice from the closet

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Originally posted by A. Robustus:
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Originally posted by WINDSONG:
Wonder what took him so long to give it up?

The answer to that is in the story.

Hi all,

The answer is simple. He had an intellectual knowledge of God and the Bible. But, he obviously never had a "spiritual" knowledge of God or the Bible.

Interesting point -- we discussed this in Sunday School yesterday -- intellectual knowledge versus spiritual knowledge. Without a spiritual knowledge of God; one is no different than a confused atheist or agnostic.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
spiritual knowledge


please define that?

sounds oddly reminiscent of some sort of crazy reverse witch test where rocks were tied to the ankles of the victim. if the victim sunk, it would obviously die, and the judges would know it was not a witch, yet if the victim floated, there would be a trial held where she would most certainly be found guilty.

you would have made a fine judge during the witch trials bill. you certainly have a nose and psychological profile for it.

belief is the same thing. if you are a believer, you go to heaven. if you were a believer yet educate yourself enough to see the delusion, you were never a believer to begin with. no matter what the victim claims about their previous belief. no matter how fervently they claim to have believed, the judges (bill gray et al) proclaim you as never a believer to begin with.

lunacy.
A.,

This really made me start thinking about the death of religious philosophy. Are we seeing the end? Are philosophers coming to a place where they can no longer find a valid argument for the case of religion?

I believe what Parson's said to be true. I would find it most difficult to present religion as a valid point in this day and age.

However I do see a place for the philosophy of "why religion". I think that we should delve deeper into the thoughts and practices of humans and the "why" religion was and is so important to human beings. All cultures have some form of religion. Why do we hold on to these beliefs and rituals?

This is a favorite topic for me actually. I think that is one of the things that draws me to the religion forum here. I really want to understand the drive, the mentality of the religious. I have met many intelligent people who will argue that god exist. When ask how do you "know" they say faith. End of discussion. There has to be more to this way of thinking. When otherwise logical, intelligent people hold so tightly to an ideal with no factual or evidenced reason, I want to understand why.

Have we talked it to death? Is there anywhere else to go with the argument for or against?

As I said I am more interested these days in the "why". Any ideas?

Thanks for this post. It was thought provoking and I love to think. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
This really made me start thinking about the death of religious philosophy. Are we seeing the end? Are philosophers coming to a place where they can no longer find a valid argument for the case of religion?

Hi Jan,

I would agree with you that it is far past the time when all religions should slowly fade away.

However, Christianity being a relationship, a very personal relationship, with Jesus Christ; well, it does not fit within the man-made rituals, traditions, and trappings found in world religions.

So, I agree with you. Let's do away with all the world religions -- and turn everyone to faith in Jesus Christ, Christianity. That most certainly would be an eternal blessing to all peoples.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Last edited by Bill Gray
Bill,

The question I would like to raise is why not do good deeds, and exhibit ethical behavior simply for the sake of being a good person? The question non-religious people ask is would it not be considered selfish to practice moral, ethical behavior in the hopes you won't be "punished in the next life"? I try to present myself to other people in a genuine way because that's the right thing to do, not because I have hopes of some reward for it.

Here's a quote from Albert Einstein that mirrors the thought process:

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeeded be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
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However, Christianity being a relationship, a very personal relationship, with Jesus Christ; well, it does not fit within the man-made rituals, traditions, and trappings found in world religions.


I disagree. Christianity is a religion. Albeit one with many spinoffs and denominations, but nonethless a religion with clearly defined "rules". So you want to do away with religion and just have a relationship? No, Jesus wanted us to heed the Commandments, go to Church to worship, help others in His Name, and follow the tenets of Christianity.
He built the Church (with Peter as the Head- but thats for another thread) and expected His followers to belong to the Church.
Not just have a private relationship. But to LIVE His Word.
Further, He did not call traditions "trappings", or something to avoid, but in fact said in 2 Thess:
"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

So how do you reconcile 2 Thess. with the idea that we should throw out oral tradition?
quote:
Originally posted by ZBA:
Bill, The question I would like to raise is why not do good deeds, and exhibit ethical behavior simply for the sake of being a good person? The question non-religious people ask is would it not be considered selfish to practice moral, ethical behavior in the hopes you won't be "punished in the next life"? I try to present myself to other people in a genuine way because that's the right thing to do, not because I have hopes of some reward for it.

Hi ZBA,

Actually, good deeds and ethical behavior are very important; being a good person is very important. The problem is how we view these good works. Those in the secular world, and in most world religions, believe that being a good person and doing good works makes a better world. I agree. Those of the Liberal Christian persuasion believe that doing good works will give them salvation and eternal life with God. With them, I disagree.

Good works, good deeds, being a good person are the RESULTS of being a saved Christian believer. They are NOT the CAUSE of that salvation. There is only one way to be right with God and to attain His "free gift" of eternal life in Christ. We find this explained very clearly in Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

So, ZBA, yes -- all people, especially Christian believers, are called to do good works. But, let's keep in mind that those good works are the result of the believer's relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ; not the cause. The name "Christian" means "Christ Follower" or "Little Christ." It was first used in Antioch as a derogatory name for Christians -- but, the Christians saw how well it fits all believers. And, today we Christians are proud to be called Christ Followers. For, we know that, in being a Christ Follower -- we will follow Him into eternity. And, that is our main goal -- for us to spend eternity in the presence of God -- and to bring as many of our Friends, Relatives, Associates, and Neighbors; all our FRANs -- as possible with us.

Would you care to join His team? It is very simple. All you have to do is to sincerely open your heart and ask Him to come in and be your personal Lord and Savior (Revelation 3:20). Of course, in doing this, you will also acknowledge His death and resurrection -- and you will ask Him to forgive you of all your sins, i.e., you repent. He will -- if you will sincerely ask. But, do it now! You never know when your next breath will be your last. And, if you have not invited Him in before that last breath -- you will NEVER get another opportunity.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
And, if you have not invited Him in before that last breath -- you will NEVER get another opportunity.


Never say NEVER Bill.
You don't know if there is a Purgatory. You don't know if we will stand before Christ and have a chance to say "YES" to Him.
God transcends all space and time. That's one o the reasons why we pray for the dead. Perhaps God can take that person back to a period in his/her life and show them a different path.
Yes, it is good if we accept Christ during our earthly life, but before you give out advice as though you are an authority in the matter, you should not say "NEVER" where God is concerned. You just never know....
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Originally posted by vplee123:
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And, if you have not invited Him in before that last breath -- you will NEVER get another opportunity.


Never say NEVER Bill.
You don't know if there is a Purgatory. You don't know if we will stand before Christ and have a chance to say "YES" to Him.
God transcends all space and time. That's one o the reasons why we pray for the dead. Perhaps God can take that person back to a period in his/her life and show them a different path.
Yes, it is good if we accept Christ during our earthly life, but before you give out advice as though you are an authority in the matter, you should not say "NEVER" where God is concerned. You just never know....

-------------------

Bill, What veeps talking about is in the Bible, but you've never reconized
much of it anyway.


.
vic,

Bill is intimately familiar with the Bible. If one is of a mind, one can use the Bible to support any religious points one wants to make, however.

The book is a huge Rorschach blot, open to infinite interpretations, each one as valid as the other. We all know the Bible doesn't just say what it means, it must be interpreted. Therein lies the rub.

One can use the Bible to make a compelling case that Jesus was not divine, for instance. It's been done.

Or, one an use the Bible to predict the end of the world in May of 2012. That's been done, too.

The important thing to keep in mind is that the Bible is a work of imaginative people, not god. It just is, and we all know it.


nsns
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It just is, and we all know it.

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We all know the Bible doesn't just say what it means, it must be interpreted. Therein lies the rub.


And THAT is precisely the reason that I am so thankful for the Catholic and Apostolic Church that can provide me with correct interpretations! Wink
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god's truth, wouldn't it be clearer?


God's ways are so high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. (Fr. John Corapi, SOLT)

We cannot comprehend it all. Impossible. That's where faith comes in.(for me). If I tried to really and truly decipher the Bible by myself- I'd probably throw it up in the air and become a Hairy Krishna or something. LOL! Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
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god's truth, wouldn't it be clearer?


God's ways are so high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. (Fr. John Corapi, SOLT)

We cannot comprehend it all. Impossible. That's where faith comes in.(for me). If I tried to really and truly decipher the Bible by myself- I'd probably throw it up in the air and become a Hairy Krishna or something. LOL! Smiler
Or an atheist. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Never say NEVER Bill.
You don't know if there is a Purgatory. You don't know if we will stand before Christ and have a chance to say "YES" to Him.
God transcends all space and time. That's one o the reasons why we pray for the dead. Perhaps God can take that person back to a period in his/her life and show them a different path.
Yes, it is good if we accept Christ during our earthly life, but before you give out advice as though you are an authority in the matter, you should not say "NEVER" where God is concerned. You just never know....


Bill could learn a thing or two from you if he would come to realize he doesn't know it all & have it all down pat.
quote:
Or an atheist.


haha! true!
I think the key (in this topic, and life in general) is to never think you cannot learn something new, or look at something differently.
We become to regimented and stubborn- we stop learning. Then we just become stagnant old birds singing the same old song.....how boring!
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
god's truth, wouldn't it be clearer?


God's ways are so high above our ways as the heavens are above the earth. (Fr. John Corapi, SOLT)

We cannot comprehend it all. Impossible. That's where faith comes in.(for me). If I tried to really and truly decipher the Bible by myself- I'd probably throw it up in the air and become a Hairy Krishna or something. LOL! Smiler


m'dear veep,

Are we not created in god's image? Does that not imply that we can understand him? God apparently thought so when he punished Adam and Eve for not obeying him.

And if we are so beneath god that his words mean nothing, why bother?

Much more likely is that we have simply invented a god whose very inscrutability explains the gaps in our knowledge and the unfairness of life.

I admit I don't know much. I admit life is unfair, after a fashion. Just being here is a privilege, after all. But the gods just complicate an already complicated and impossible condition.

Relax, enjoy, and get on with your life. I do, and I don't need the gods.


nsns
quote:
Relax, enjoy, and get on with your life. I do, and I don't need the gods.


Great on ya, NS, but I am quite relaxed, happy with my life, and thank God every day for every breathe.
In His image..yes. But can we comprehend everything? Not yet. Wink
As long as you and I are both happy, we are in a win-win situation, right?!? Chacun son gout, n'est pas?

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