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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Pastor Joe Wright's 'Prayer Of Repentance'" -- my Friend, VP, tells me, "No, Bill, I don't feel that we are team mates. While we have some beliefs in common, you have insulted and blasphemed my church so often, and rejected Apostolic Tradition, calling it "liberal", etc.

That is truly sad; for you say you are a Christian believer and I know I am a Christian believer -- yet, you say that we are not brothers in Christ. I offer a hand in Christian fellowship -- and you refuse it. Something is missing there.

Yes, I have rejected many of your Roman Catholic traditions and doctrines; for I consider them to not be Biblical. The ones we have discussed and where we disagree are those written by men: the Eucharist, Mariology, purgatory, infallibility of the Pope, confessing to other men, etc. -- are all man-made Traditions and not found in the Bible.

You have attempted to take one or two Scripture verses and make them fit your Traditions. However, one or two Scripture verses cannot stand alone -- for no Scripture verse can contradict another. The only way to determine Biblical Doctrine is to have complete Biblical agreement upon that doctrine. If one verse seems to be telling us one thing; but other Scripture verses contradict that interpretation -- then, it is a wrong interpretation.

The Bible explains the Bible. No theology can be built upon a few Scripture verses. For any theology to be valid -- it MUST be built upon the entire Bible. So, this is where I say that your Traditions are not Biblical; for they are not supported by the full Bible.

You say, "You even posted an article stating that most Catholics will leave their church to find Jesus."

Actually, the article I posted, written by Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, tells us that once a person becomes a born again Christian believer through faith in Jesus Christ, pressure upon this person's spiritual life will be such that he/she will eventually leave the Roman Catholic church.

Dr. Anthony Pezzotta was born in Italy, born into and raised in a devout Roman Catholic family. Most of his family are still Roman Catholic and he has a great love for Roman Catholics. This is why he has written the book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism and the Holy Scriptures -- A Bible Study For Catholics."

This book is available for $9.00 by contacting CB Southern California, PO Box 2279, Montclair, CA 91763-0779 - Phone: 909.482.0728 - or by contacting CB Ministries at cbministries@cbasc.com

He graduated with advanced degrees from Roman Catholic seminaries in Italy, Spain, Germany, and England. He is highly educated in Roman Catholic theology. Later, he gained advanced degrees from Protestant seminaries in the United States. Academically, this man is no slouch -- in either Roman Catholic theology or in Protestant theology.

He was Director of the Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries and Rector of Local Salesian Communities in Manila, Philippines -- for ten yeas. This was not a young priest fresh out of seminary who was having second thoughts.

Over the years, what he was teaching to other Roman Catholics and to other priests began to weigh on his mind -- for, like Martin Luther, he began to realize that we are saved by faith, and not by the church. He became friends with several Baptist pastors in Manila and spent time talking with them about his faith.

One of these is my dear Friend, Pastor Joe de la Pena. The other was Pastor Ernesto Montealegre. The three were close friends while Tony was still a Roman Catholic priest. And, it was at Pastor Joe's church in San Juan Capistrano, California, that I first had an opportunity to meet Dr. Pezzotta in person.

After a while, Anthony Pezzotta knew he had to leave the Roman Catholic church. Obviously, this was not a decision he made lightly or on the spur of the moment -- but, only after serious prayer and consideration.

Dr. Pezzotta is the man who told me, and wrote, that once a Roman Catholic does, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- become a born again Christian -- he/she will most likely leave the Roman Catholic church. Why? Because those same traditions and doctrines over which you, VP, take issue with me -- begin to weigh heavily upon the person's heart after acceptance of salvation by grace, through faith.

The contradiction of salvation through the church versus salvation by grace through faith -- becomes a heavy burden. And, at some point, this burden becomes too much; and, according to Dr. Pezzotta, the person will decide to leave the Roman Catholic church.

In the past, when I have talked with people about this, or when I was asked the question, I had suggested that folks might stay in the Roman Catholic church for a year or two before this began to pull them away. When I put that question to Dr. Pezzotta during a Question and Answer session at our church, his response was that he stayed in the Roman Catholic church for three hours after his conversion to salvation by faith alone.

Next, you tell me, "I don't think 'teammates' do that kind of thing. You have no respect for the doctrines of the Apostolic church, so how can we possibly be team mates? You block me at every point, and, by the way, still have an outstanding question to answer."

True, I do not believe or accept the Roman Catholic Traditions and do not believe in the tradition of Peter as the first Pope and Apostolic Succession since him. No, I do not believe that Jesus Christ told Peter (Petros) that he was the "rock" (petra) upon which the church would be built -- for we have other Scripture passages which tell us that Jesus Christ is the ROCK, the CORNERSTONE, upon which the church is built.

Peter and the other apostles were the initial pebbles, the small stones which help solidify the foundation; but, alone cannot support the structure. Only a divine Stone can support the Christian church, the body of Christ -- and that Stone is Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16:18, "I also say to you that you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."

The word "rock" in Greek is "petra" meaning: A rock, cliff or ledge -- a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground -- a rock, a stone -- metaphor: a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul.

Peter (Petros) was this man built like a rock (petra), a man of firmness and strength of soul -- but, not the ROCK.

Psalm 118:22, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone ('eben )."

The word "cornerstone" in Hebrew is 'eben which means: Stone, common stone (in natural state, i.e., not made by man), marble, hewn stones, precious stones, stones of fire.

Matthew 21:42, "Jesus said to them, 'Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes"' ?"

The Greek word for "stone" is "lithos" which means: A stone, building stones, metaphor for Christ

The word "cornerstone" is broken into two words in Greek:

The first half is "the head" which in Greek is "kephale" and means: (1) the head, both of men and often of animals, and, (2) metaphor for anything supreme, chief, prominent, i.e., of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church; and of things: the corner stone.

And, the second half is "of the corner" which is the Greek word "gonia" and means: Corner -- an external angle, a corner -- internal corner, i.e. a secret place.

Put them together and we have Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone, the Head, the Secret Place -- which is the Chief Building Block, the Cornerstone, the ROCK -- of the Christian Church. This is no "small pebble" as was Peter, the other apostles, and all Christians since them. No, this is the True ROCK upon which the church is built and upon Whom we all rely for salvation and eternal security.

Other Scripture verses supporting this:

Mark 12:10, "Have you not even read this Scripture: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone."

Luke 20:17, "Then He looked at them and said, 'What then is this that is written: "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone"'?"

Acts 4:11, "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'"

1 Peter 2:6, "Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, 'Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.'"

1 Peter 2:7, "Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the Chief Cornerstone.'"

Finally, you tell me, "So I offered a general prayer of contrition. So what? WHY you would even take issue with that speaks volumes of your (lack of) respect for anything Catholic."

And, in your next post you quote my earlier post where I have written, "VP, your prayer is nice -- and verbatim right out of the Roman Catholic Missal -- the Act of Contrition. Which do you believe pleases God more -- repeating a man written prayer by rote -- or speaking directly to Him from your heart?"

And, you respond, "And by the way, any prayer is pleasing to God, as long as it is done quietly, not 'showy' and with a sincere and contrite heart. Jesus gave us a prayer that we say all the time BY ROTE. I firmly believe that God welcomes all prayer -- rote, spontaneous, meditation, whatever. THe key is not in the words, but in the state of the penitents heart.........."

Yes, all prayer is pleasing to Jesus Christ. However, as I asked you in my earlier post -- how sincere would you believe your spouse to be when he/she says, "I love you" -- if he/she has to read it from a script? How much warmth, how secure in your spouse's love -- would this make you feel?

On the other hand, if your spouse gets all excited and tells you, "My darling, I love you so much!" -- now, that you will believe.

This was the point I was attempting to make in my comment about praying prewritten prayers out of a book.

Did Jesus teach us to pray by rote? I believe you are referring to the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6.

In Matthew 6:7, Jesus tells His apostles, and us, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

Matthew 6:8-9-13, "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Pray, then, in this way:

Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
(Adoration for God the Father, our heavenly Father)

Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. (Lord, we anticipate with eager hearts your coming earthly kingdom, the time when Your will is established on this earth, i.e, the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ)

Give us this day our daily bread. (Lord, provide our needs -- not our wants, but our needs -- for today; just as You provided daily manna for Your chosen people, Israel, in the wilderness)

And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (Lord, forgive us our many sins which grieve You -- and teach us how to forgive those who have sinned against us)

And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Lord, protect us from our own mortal weaknesses toward sin and temptation -- and protect us from the evil one, Satan, and from his evil influence)

In other words, Jesus Christ is giving us a "model" for effective prayer. It is similar to one we are all familiar with which we call the ACTS Prayer Model: Adoration -- Confession -- Thanksgiving -- Supplication. If you will look closely at the prayer model given to us by Jesus Christ, you will see this same pattern.

And, personally, I always like to finish my prayers by affirming, "Lord, Your will be done in every part of my life. Amen"

So, VP, no, Jesus did not teach us to pray by rote; He taught us to come to the Father in adoration, humility, repentance, faith, thanksgiving, and finally, supplication. That is a sure-fire model for effective praying.

VP, I sincerely pray that you will reconsider being my Christian brother and team mate. As we are told in Proverbs 27:17, "Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another." All Christian believers who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are Christian brothers and sisters -- even if we do disagree on certain issues.

It is His desire that we stand together against the secular world and against its attempts to destroy our Christian faith. If you profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, as your ONLY Way to eternal salvation -- then, we are brothers in Christ -- even if you have disowned me.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Ronnie P.:
You people just keep encouraging this.

Hi Ronnie,

If you mean "encouraging prayer" -- then, Praise the Lord!

If you mean encouraging my written responses -- if you seek you will find -- if not God -- at least, I am sure you can find the Ignore button. I understand it works almost as good as God.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Ronnie- you are absolutely right. we are enabling and encouraging his garbage.
I am going to do my part and put him on "ignore". And I would encourage my FRANs to do the same.

Hi VP,

That would actually be a blessing. But, somehow, I don't believe I can be so fortunate. Every time someone promises to Ignore me -- five minutes later, they are right back doing the Troll.

But, I know I can depend upon you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
LOL. OK, a "sure fire" method of prayer.

Y'all pray for me, in sure fire fashion, to hit the Lottery this weekend. I'll give 90% of it to Bill Gray's favorite charity. It's "sure fire" after, all. Money for nothing. KK

Hi Deep,

You left off the last "K" from your initials.

Yes, Deep, that is one of the differences between atheists and Christian. Atheist can only WISH -- while Christian believers can PRAY.

You see, the only prayer God hears from an atheist would be, "Lord, I am a sinner. Forgive me for my sins. I invite Jesus Christ to come into my heart and be my personal Lord and Savior."

Now, if you can SINCERELY pray that prayer -- He will hear you. Then you can move into other prayers. But, without that one first -- all the others are just spitting into the wind -- much like all atheists' wishing.

Give it a try. You might like it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
LOL. OK, a "sure fire" method of prayer.

Y'all pray for me, in sure fire fashion, to hit the Lottery this weekend. I'll give 90% of it to Bill Gray's favorite charity. It's "sure fire" after, all. Money for nothing. KK

Hi Deep,

You left off the last "K" from your initials.

Yes, Deep, that is one of the differences between atheists and Christian. Atheist can only WISH -- while Christian believers can PRAY.

You see, the only prayer God hears from an atheist would be, "Lord, I am a sinner. Forgive me for my sins. I invite Jesus Christ to come into my heart and be my personal Lord and Savior."

Now, if you can SINCERELY pray that prayer -- He will hear you. Then you can move into other prayers. But, without that one first -- all the others are just spitting into the wind -- much like all atheists' wishing.

Give it a try. You might like it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


interesting.
bill declares that he know the will of god, and can speak for god infallibly.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
interesting. bill declares that he know the will of god, and can speak for god infallibly.

Hi Nagel,

You are doing the old atheist "spin and twist" again. In this post I never mentioned the "will of God" nor speaking for God.

First of all, NO ONE, repeat NO ONE, is infallible when sharing the Word of God -- except God. We study God's Written Word daily to gain more knowledge, to mature in our knowledge of His Written Word. But, NO ONE can speak infallibly for God -- except God.

Can we know the will of God? Yes. We do this by studying His Written Word, the Bible. I can do it; you can do it. If you truly, sincerely, seek His will in His Written Word -- you can find it.

Try it! You will like it!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
interesting. bill declares that he know the will of god, and can speak for god infallibly.

Hi Nagel,

You are doing the old atheist "spin and twist" again. In this post I never mentioned the "will of God" nor speaking for God.

quote:
Posted by Bill Gray
You see, the only prayer God hears from an atheist would be, "Lord, I am a sinner. Forgive me for my sins. I invite Jesus Christ to come into my heart and be my personal Lord and Savior."



i see. so you telling us what kind of prayers God is able to hear isn't, in fact, you pretending to know the mind and will of god?
ok.. yeah.. i guess not..i apologize for see that wrong.

Ladies and Gentleman, may i present Bill Gray, the Ears of the Lord. Step right up! Bill can tell us what sort of prayers God hears!
only one thin dime! the tenth part of a dollah! step right up and be amazed! Only Bill knows what prayers God can hear, so better check with him to make sure your soul is safe!
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Ladies and Gentleman, may i present Bill Gray, the Ears of the Lord. Step right up! Bill can tell us what sort of prayers God hears!

Hi Nagel,

In your anti-God way, you have actually found some truth. YES, I, or any Christian believer, can tell you which prayers God hears and which He rejects or refuses to hear. He hears the prayers of Christian believers -- and He hears the prayers of repentant seekers. But, He rejects those who would mock Him by praying insincerely or for gain.

PRAYERS OF THE NON-BELIEVER:

Proverbs 15:29, "The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous."

Proverbs 28:9, "He who turns away his ear from listening to the Law (God), Even his prayer is an abomination."

Isaiah 1:15, "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood."

1 Peter 3:12, "For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil."

PRAYERS OF THE REPENTANT SEEKER:

Acts 10:31, "And he said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God."

Romans 10:9, "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." The sinner's prayer of repentance and invitation.

Revelation 3:20, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door (prayer of repentance), I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me."

PRAYERS OF THE BELIEVER:

Proverbs 15:29, "The LORD is far from the wicked, But He hears the prayer of the righteous."

1 Peter 3:12, "For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous, And His ears are open to their prayers; But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil."

James 5:15-16, "And the prayer offered in faith (the believer) will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

Nagel, thank you for giving me this opportunity to share with our Forum Friends. Inadvertently, you have become a partner in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray this does not upset you too much.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
Ladies and Gentleman, may i present Bill Gray, the Ears of the Lord. Step right up! Bill can tell us what sort of prayers God hears!

Hi Nagel,

In your anti-God way, you have actually found some truth. YES, I, or any Christian believer, can tell you which prayers God hears and which He rejects or refuses to hear. He hears the prayers of Christian believers -- and He hears the prayers of repentant seekers. But, He rejects those who would mock Him by praying insincerely or for gain.


ya know.. i can't decide whether to laugh at you or weep for you.
if it's done to mock him or in insincerity, it's not really a prayer is it?
a prayer is something that is done with sincerity, or it's just making noise.

so once again, you ignore something real to try and make yourself look clever, but your bible-babble has proven nothing.

quote:

Nagel, thank you for giving me this opportunity to share with our Forum Friends. Inadvertently, you have become a partner in sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I pray this does not upset you too much.


i'm just floored at how consistantly incorrect you are, and then after each incorrect statement you dance and cheer and pat yourself on the back for such a clever verbal victory.

i have not become a parter in sharing the gospel with you, bill.
i have, unfortunatly, been party to you useing my words to shred the gospel just a little bit more.
and fear not, nothing you can say or do upsets me. amuses, yes, and often saddens me that someone who seems to be so well spoken could be such a closed minded stooge.
but upset? nah. you aren't capable of that.

correction. you probably don't dance.

you know why baptists don't make love standing up?
they are afraid someone will see them and think they're dancing.

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