Hi to my Forum Friends,
In the discussion I began titled "Pastor Joe Wright's 'Prayer Of Repentance'" -- my Friend, VP, tells me, "No, Bill, I don't feel that we are team mates. While we have some beliefs in common, you have insulted and blasphemed my church so often, and rejected Apostolic Tradition, calling it "liberal", etc.
That is truly sad; for you say you are a Christian believer and I know I am a Christian believer -- yet, you say that we are not brothers in Christ. I offer a hand in Christian fellowship -- and you refuse it. Something is missing there.
Yes, I have rejected many of your Roman Catholic traditions and doctrines; for I consider them to not be Biblical. The ones we have discussed and where we disagree are those written by men: the Eucharist, Mariology, purgatory, infallibility of the Pope, confessing to other men, etc. -- are all man-made Traditions and not found in the Bible.
You have attempted to take one or two Scripture verses and make them fit your Traditions. However, one or two Scripture verses cannot stand alone -- for no Scripture verse can contradict another. The only way to determine Biblical Doctrine is to have complete Biblical agreement upon that doctrine. If one verse seems to be telling us one thing; but other Scripture verses contradict that interpretation -- then, it is a wrong interpretation.
The Bible explains the Bible. No theology can be built upon a few Scripture verses. For any theology to be valid -- it MUST be built upon the entire Bible. So, this is where I say that your Traditions are not Biblical; for they are not supported by the full Bible.
You say, "You even posted an article stating that most Catholics will leave their church to find Jesus."
Actually, the article I posted, written by Dr. Anthony Pezzotta, tells us that once a person becomes a born again Christian believer through faith in Jesus Christ, pressure upon this person's spiritual life will be such that he/she will eventually leave the Roman Catholic church.
Dr. Anthony Pezzotta was born in Italy, born into and raised in a devout Roman Catholic family. Most of his family are still Roman Catholic and he has a great love for Roman Catholics. This is why he has written the book "Truth Encounter, Catholicism and the Holy Scriptures -- A Bible Study For Catholics."
This book is available for $9.00 by contacting CB Southern California, PO Box 2279, Montclair, CA 91763-0779 - Phone: 909.482.0728 - or by contacting CB Ministries at cbministries@cbasc.com
He graduated with advanced degrees from Roman Catholic seminaries in Italy, Spain, Germany, and England. He is highly educated in Roman Catholic theology. Later, he gained advanced degrees from Protestant seminaries in the United States. Academically, this man is no slouch -- in either Roman Catholic theology or in Protestant theology.
He was Director of the Roman Catholic Schools and Seminaries and Rector of Local Salesian Communities in Manila, Philippines -- for ten yeas. This was not a young priest fresh out of seminary who was having second thoughts.
Over the years, what he was teaching to other Roman Catholics and to other priests began to weigh on his mind -- for, like Martin Luther, he began to realize that we are saved by faith, and not by the church. He became friends with several Baptist pastors in Manila and spent time talking with them about his faith.
One of these is my dear Friend, Pastor Joe de la Pena. The other was Pastor Ernesto Montealegre. The three were close friends while Tony was still a Roman Catholic priest. And, it was at Pastor Joe's church in San Juan Capistrano, California, that I first had an opportunity to meet Dr. Pezzotta in person.
After a while, Anthony Pezzotta knew he had to leave the Roman Catholic church. Obviously, this was not a decision he made lightly or on the spur of the moment -- but, only after serious prayer and consideration.
Dr. Pezzotta is the man who told me, and wrote, that once a Roman Catholic does, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ -- become a born again Christian -- he/she will most likely leave the Roman Catholic church. Why? Because those same traditions and doctrines over which you, VP, take issue with me -- begin to weigh heavily upon the person's heart after acceptance of salvation by grace, through faith.
The contradiction of salvation through the church versus salvation by grace through faith -- becomes a heavy burden. And, at some point, this burden becomes too much; and, according to Dr. Pezzotta, the person will decide to leave the Roman Catholic church.
In the past, when I have talked with people about this, or when I was asked the question, I had suggested that folks might stay in the Roman Catholic church for a year or two before this began to pull them away. When I put that question to Dr. Pezzotta during a Question and Answer session at our church, his response was that he stayed in the Roman Catholic church for three hours after his conversion to salvation by faith alone.
Next, you tell me, "I don't think 'teammates' do that kind of thing. You have no respect for the doctrines of the Apostolic church, so how can we possibly be team mates? You block me at every point, and, by the way, still have an outstanding question to answer."
True, I do not believe or accept the Roman Catholic Traditions and do not believe in the tradition of Peter as the first Pope and Apostolic Succession since him. No, I do not believe that Jesus Christ told Peter (Petros) that he was the "rock" (petra) upon which the church would be built -- for we have other Scripture passages which tell us that Jesus Christ is the ROCK, the CORNERSTONE, upon which the church is built.
Peter and the other apostles were the initial pebbles, the small stones which help solidify the foundation; but, alone cannot support the structure. Only a divine Stone can support the Christian church, the body of Christ -- and that Stone is Jesus Christ.
Matthew 16:18, "I also say to you that you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it."
The word "rock" in Greek is "petra" meaning: A rock, cliff or ledge -- a projecting rock, crag, rocky ground -- a rock, a stone -- metaphor: a man like a rock, by reason of his firmness and strength of soul.
Peter (Petros) was this man built like a rock (petra), a man of firmness and strength of soul -- but, not the ROCK.
Psalm 118:22, "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone ('eben )."
The word "cornerstone" in Hebrew is 'eben which means: Stone, common stone (in natural state, i.e., not made by man), marble, hewn stones, precious stones, stones of fire.
Matthew 21:42, "Jesus said to them, 'Have you never read in the Scriptures: "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD's doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes"' ?"
The Greek word for "stone" is "lithos" which means: A stone, building stones, metaphor for Christ
The word "cornerstone" is broken into two words in Greek:
The first half is "the head" which in Greek is "kephale" and means: (1) the head, both of men and often of animals, and, (2) metaphor for anything supreme, chief, prominent, i.e., of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church; and of things: the corner stone.
And, the second half is "of the corner" which is the Greek word "gonia" and means: Corner -- an external angle, a corner -- internal corner, i.e. a secret place.
Put them together and we have Jesus Christ, the Cornerstone, the Head, the Secret Place -- which is the Chief Building Block, the Cornerstone, the ROCK -- of the Christian Church. This is no "small pebble" as was Peter, the other apostles, and all Christians since them. No, this is the True ROCK upon which the church is built and upon Whom we all rely for salvation and eternal security.
Other Scripture verses supporting this:
Mark 12:10, "Have you not even read this Scripture: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone."
Luke 20:17, "Then He looked at them and said, 'What then is this that is written: "The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone"'?"
Acts 4:11, "This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.'"
1 Peter 2:6, "Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture, 'Behold, I lay in Zion A chief cornerstone, elect, precious, And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.'"
1 Peter 2:7, "Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the Chief Cornerstone.'"
Finally, you tell me, "So I offered a general prayer of contrition. So what? WHY you would even take issue with that speaks volumes of your (lack of) respect for anything Catholic."
And, in your next post you quote my earlier post where I have written, "VP, your prayer is nice -- and verbatim right out of the Roman Catholic Missal -- the Act of Contrition. Which do you believe pleases God more -- repeating a man written prayer by rote -- or speaking directly to Him from your heart?"
And, you respond, "And by the way, any prayer is pleasing to God, as long as it is done quietly, not 'showy' and with a sincere and contrite heart. Jesus gave us a prayer that we say all the time BY ROTE. I firmly believe that God welcomes all prayer -- rote, spontaneous, meditation, whatever. THe key is not in the words, but in the state of the penitents heart.........."
Yes, all prayer is pleasing to Jesus Christ. However, as I asked you in my earlier post -- how sincere would you believe your spouse to be when he/she says, "I love you" -- if he/she has to read it from a script? How much warmth, how secure in your spouse's love -- would this make you feel?
On the other hand, if your spouse gets all excited and tells you, "My darling, I love you so much!" -- now, that you will believe.
This was the point I was attempting to make in my comment about praying prewritten prayers out of a book.
Did Jesus teach us to pray by rote? I believe you are referring to the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 6.
In Matthew 6:7, Jesus tells His apostles, and us, "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."
Matthew 6:8-9-13, "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. Pray, then, in this way:
Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (Adoration for God the Father, our heavenly Father)
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. (Lord, we anticipate with eager hearts your coming earthly kingdom, the time when Your will is established on this earth, i.e, the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ)
Give us this day our daily bread. (Lord, provide our needs -- not our wants, but our needs -- for today; just as You provided daily manna for Your chosen people, Israel, in the wilderness)
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. (Lord, forgive us our many sins which grieve You -- and teach us how to forgive those who have sinned against us)
And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Lord, protect us from our own mortal weaknesses toward sin and temptation -- and protect us from the evil one, Satan, and from his evil influence)
In other words, Jesus Christ is giving us a "model" for effective prayer. It is similar to one we are all familiar with which we call the ACTS Prayer Model: Adoration -- Confession -- Thanksgiving -- Supplication. If you will look closely at the prayer model given to us by Jesus Christ, you will see this same pattern.
And, personally, I always like to finish my prayers by affirming, "Lord, Your will be done in every part of my life. Amen"
So, VP, no, Jesus did not teach us to pray by rote; He taught us to come to the Father in adoration, humility, repentance, faith, thanksgiving, and finally, supplication. That is a sure-fire model for effective praying.
VP, I sincerely pray that you will reconsider being my Christian brother and team mate. As we are told in Proverbs 27:17, "Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another." All Christian believers who profess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are Christian brothers and sisters -- even if we do disagree on certain issues.
It is His desire that we stand together against the secular world and against its attempts to destroy our Christian faith. If you profess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, as your ONLY Way to eternal salvation -- then, we are brothers in Christ -- even if you have disowned me.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
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