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How did it happen that we're here? A question none of us will ever know. While we're alive and wondering we keep asking how and why. The disagreement seems to only be how. To most atheists the how is evolution. The why it happened, who knows. To christians the how is god, but again the why is who knows. If your opinion is different give us new ideas.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
How did it happen that we're here? A question none of us will ever know. While we're alive and wondering we keep asking how and why. The disagreement seems to only be how. To most atheists the how is evolution. The why it happened, who knows. To christians the how is god, but again the why is who knows. If your opinion is different give us new ideas.

---------------------------------------

The why is because God wanted to share a life with us, and he
wanted to communicate his love for all of us.

Thats why were here, He doesn't need anyone to be happy.

.
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
How did it happen that we're here? A question none of us will ever know. While we're alive and wondering we keep asking how and why. The disagreement seems to only be how. To most atheists the how is evolution. The why it happened, who knows. To christians the how is god, but again the why is who knows. If your opinion is different give us new ideas.

---------------------------------------

The why is because God wanted to share a life with us, and he
wanted to communicate his love for all of us.

Thats why were here, He doesn't need anyone to be happy.
.

------------------------------------

If you were to create a human, would you want it to love for who you are?
Are love you because they fear you?

Or they would said, Show yourself and I might believe in you.
( Thats not love)


.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
If you were to create a human, would you want it to love for who you are?
Are love you because they fear you?

Or they would said, Show yourself and I might believe in you.

My husband and I created two humans. They love us. We would have failed as parents/humans if they feared us.

------------------------------------

I think co-created, and no, you don't want their fear. You know how bad
you feel when something happens to one of them. So does God.

.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
If you were to create a human, would you want it to love for who you are?
Are love you because they fear you?

Or they would said, Show yourself and I might believe in you.

My husband and I created two humans. They love us. We would have failed as parents/humans if they feared us.


Nah... I was scared to death of my step-dad.. but it was fear build out of respect. Kids should have their little spirit broken if they keep screwing up and being disobedient. I got my "hide tanned"(my step dad's favorite term) many times as a youngster, but I'm better for it now. Accepting responsible discipline is very important for the growth and development of children. It's not a blanket statement however. Some parents chose not to spank and their kids turn out fine. And there have been kids from both types of discipline which have turned into losers. But respectful fear is a very good thing IMO. The "fear" of what whould happen to me after my mom and step-dad found out about it, is what kept me from doing bad things I was tempted with coming up.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
The why is because God wanted to share a life with us, and he
wanted to communicate his love for all of us.

That still begs the why. Why do you think he needed you and others in his life? If he had always been here as you say, why would he suddenly feel a need to create you?

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To share this world but more important to share heaven with unthinkable
happiness.

To share his love for us and all he wants in return is your love.

The love that comes from your heart and your free will.

.
That's another question I keep seeing over and over again - the question of "fearing" God. You keep saying He demands our love or He will send us to Hell. But that isn't the way it works.

In my cat analogy, the cat "said" she wanted to run away because my "cruelty" proved that I didn't love her. Now if she DID run away and got hit by a car, would it be because I condemned her to be killed by a car? No, it would be because it happened. The only way I could prevent that would be to lock her in the house and never let her go outside. In other words, to deprive her of free will.

So if a person chooses to "run away" from God, and they end up in Hell, it is THEIR CHOICE, a choice they made through the free will God has given us.

Another analogy I made yesterday was the toddler and the hot burner. If you tell your toddler not to touch the burner and they do anyway, did you CONDEMN your child to be burned? Of course not. You told the child not to do it, but the child's poor understanding led them to touch it anyway.

Now SOME toddlers will obey their parents unquestioningly. Others won't. Some will TRUST that their parents are right, others question WHY their parents tell them not to do something.The ones who obey stay safe, while the ones who don't, get burned.
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
If you were to create a human, would you want it to love for who you are?
Are love you because they fear you?

Or they would said, Show yourself and I might believe in you.

My husband and I created two humans. They love us. We would have failed as parents/humans if they feared us.

------------------------------------

I think co-created, and no, you don't want their fear. You know how bad
you feel when something happens to one of them. So does God.

.
No, I'm sure there was only my husband and myself involved. Unless you mean nature.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
To share this world but more important to share heaven with unthinkable
happiness.

I have that happiness right now, with my family and friends. And I didn't have to die to get it, or worry about what some imaginary being thought about it.

----------------------------------

Then why did you ask? Why do you care if you have all the answers.

Your good to go...but where, the dream world you're in now ain't

forever, but your soul is forever.

.
quote:
Then why did you ask? Why do you care if you have all the answers.

Your good to go...but where, the dream world you're in now ain't

forever, but your soul is forever.

If you will read the question you'll know why I ask. I said christians and atheists had their theories and ask if anyone had anything ELSE/DIFFERENT to offer. Don't get snippy with me because you didn't understand the question.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
If you were to create a human, would you want it to love for who you are?
Are love you because they fear you?

Or they would said, Show yourself and I might believe in you.

My husband and I created two humans. They love us. We would have failed as parents/humans if they feared us.


jenn don't forget the chimp. He was in on the caper. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
That's another question I keep seeing over and over again - the question of "fearing" God. You keep saying He demands our love or He will send us to Hell. But that isn't the way it works.

In my cat analogy, the cat "said" she wanted to run away because my "cruelty" proved that I didn't love her. Now if she DID run away and got hit by a car, would it be because I condemned her to be killed by a car? No, it would be because it happened. The only way I could prevent that would be to lock her in the house and never let her go outside. In other words, to deprive her of free will.

So if a person chooses to "run away" from God, and they end up in Hell, it is THEIR CHOICE, a choice they made through the free will God has given us.

Another analogy I made yesterday was the toddler and the hot burner. If you tell your toddler not to touch the burner and they do anyway, did you CONDEMN your child to be burned? Of course not. You told the child not to do it, but the child's poor understanding led them to touch it anyway.

Now SOME toddlers will obey their parents unquestioningly. Others won't. Some will TRUST that their parents are right, others question WHY their parents tell them not to do something.The ones who obey stay safe, while the ones who don't, get burned.



Oh Gosh, not this silly "Fluffy" thing again.
quote:
So if a person chooses to "run away" from God, and they end up in Hell, it is THEIR CHOICE, a choice they made through the free will God has given us.


No one "chooses" to disbelieve. Sheesh you're dense. What part of "I don't believe, I did believe but that belief left me, I'm happier now because it did do you just not get? Did YOU choose to be born a female? Like I told bill, there are lots of things people can choose to do or not do, then there are things that just happen. One of those things that just happened to me was coming to the realization I don't believe in a god. Now go on and argue that I never believed to begin with. It really doesn't matter to me.
quote:
Doesn't matter to me either. I was talking to a local pastor last night about these forums, and he advised me not to "cast my pearls before swine", so as far as I'm concerned, you may go wallow.

Did you tell him what a hateful bitter old pill you are and that you talk about your cats on here too? Good thing I don't give a red rat's *** about what you or some pastor says. As far as I'm concerned neither you or your pastor have any pearls of wisdom to cast. So take your own advice, go wallow in your sanctimonious BS. Now, back to ignore for you.
I think we all have pondered the meaning of life and it's origin. I've often wondered if my reason for being is behind me or yet to come. I know I have no great accomplishment, but who's to say that I haven't unwittingly set something in motion, or influenced someone who will be the person to make a difference? Still, all I can do is speculate. The same must be said of the origins of life. No man, despite our wondrous technologies, has an inkling of knowledge of the creation. Oh sure, many theories abound, such as the big bang theory, but to theorize is the best we shall ever do. I have respect for the scientific community, but I do not understand or share their need to explain away everything in or about life. It is folly for them to think they can. For some, they have the need to prove in order to disprove. To them, if it can be shown how this or that can be done, then that disproves a divine being. Does it? Of course not. The only proof I see in it is when a man thinks himself the supreme being, he seeks to reinforce that through works. Look at what I did. See how much I know. How can anything be greater than I? I have to bow to no one, I have no rules to govern my life, and lastly; I don't believe. I am not here to say I am right or anyone else is wrong. I am but a man, and claim no more. I am subject to all life's hardships and pleasures as much as you. But when I see a child, I do not see a biological organism. When I see the sun, I do not think of light rays traversing the void of space at 3x10 to the eighth m/s. When I see a flower, I do not see a means of pollination through olfactory attractants. I see the hand of God, and the wonders it has wrought.
Last edited by Anicus
quote:
and lastly; I don't believe. I am not here to say I am right or anyone else is wrong. I am but a man, and claim no more. I am subject to all life's hardships and pleasures as much as you. But when I see a child, I do not see a biological organism. When I see the sun, I do not think of light rays traversing the void of space at 3x10 to the eighth m/s. When I see a flower, I do not see a means of pollination through olfactory attractants. I see the hand of God, and the wonders it has wrought.

You don't believe in what?
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
and lastly; I don't believe. I am not here to say I am right or anyone else is wrong. I am but a man, and claim no more. I am subject to all life's hardships and pleasures as much as you. But when I see a child, I do not see a biological organism. When I see the sun, I do not think of light rays traversing the void of space at 3x10 to the eighth m/s. When I see a flower, I do not see a means of pollination through olfactory attractants. I see the hand of God, and the wonders it has wrought.

You don't believe in what?



"Jennifer", if you don't have me on ignore yet, go back and read it again. The "I don't believe" is part of a sentence that you failed to quote in its entirety. Either your reading comprehension skills are very weak, or you're just trying to pick a fight with this person. Knowing the way you post on these forums, either scenario is equally likely.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
It really doesn't matter to me.



Doesn't matter to me either. I was talking to a local pastor last night about these forums, and he advised me not to "cast my pearls before swine", so as far as I'm concerned, you may go wallow.



Wow, is that ever a tired old chestnut. I'm not the least bit interested in seeing your pearls cast. I thought you were a Chick.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
How did it happen that we're here? A question none of us will ever know. While we're alive and wondering we keep asking how and why. The disagreement seems to only be how. To most atheists the how is evolution. The why it happened, who knows. To christians the how is god, but again the why is who knows. If your opinion is different give us new ideas.


God wants sons and daughters in His image. And what God wants He gets, which includes ALL of humanity.

This life and all the evils we experience is very short, and God assures us the horrors we go through now is nothing compared to the glory He has in store for us all. If you need chapter and verse on that I got it.

Good question, hope my answer helped.

Peace,

gdriggs
quote:
This life and all the evils we experience is very short, and God assures us the horrors we go through now is nothing compared to the glory He has in store for us all. If you need chapter and verse on that I got it

No thanks. I've probably forgotten more about the bible than most christians will ever know. And not to be rude, I know what christians think, I was hoping we'd get fresh input and ideas about what others believe. For instance, someone told me they believed there had been a creator millions of years ago, but he/they moved on and let nature take over and have long lost interest in us. Ideas like that are kinda what I was wondering about.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
It really doesn't matter to me.



Doesn't matter to me either. I was talking to a local pastor last night about these forums, and he advised me not to "cast my pearls before swine", so as far as I'm concerned, you may go wallow.


O'

I very much consider myself a Christian and past that I try and reveal no more about who I am or what I do. That said I would like to say, as a Christian, your Pastor or this Pastor should have never said what he did to you without knowing more himself. It appears he made a quick judgment as to this forum and the people in it. The section of scripture that contains the statement he made "pearls before swine" etc comes from instructions on Judging found in Matthew 7:1-6.

Matthew 7:1-6 (ESV) 1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. 6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

Note these instructions are to Christian believers and the context is about Judging. I believe, and I believe the scriptures teach, that we, Christians, are not to judge others actions or sins. It is not our place or task to set in judgment of another person with regard to their salvation and standing with God. We, as Christians though are to share Christ or be willing to share Christ and what I believe verse 6 is saying is that we, as Christians who interact with non-believers, not Christians, should make judgments as to what to share with whom. Judge the intentions of those who question us and ask of us about our faith. What is their motivation? Is it of genuine interest, legitimate conversation with mutual respect or are they just asking or luring us into a trap with the only intention to seek to destroy Christ or destroy us. The Judgment you are making is not of another's beliefs, standing with God, or their religion or belief but the Judgment that Christ is instructing you to make is one of the intent another has in engaging you in conversation, their intent. You have one verse about this yet the bulk of the verses (first 5) with regards to personally judging another person as to their actions, their lives, their beliefs. The sixth verse is a personal judgment with regard as to the intent of another person engaging you in conversation and if that intent is a trap or to nefarious in nature then we are to abstain from continuing on with that particular person or conversation.

Therefore I do not feel your pastor's advice was given correctly for I feel he made a personal judgment about the forum as a whole or at best should have explained more about what he meant when he said that.


Christians must exercise discernment; for not everyone is a sheep. Some people are dogs or hogs, and some are wolves in sheep's clothing! We are the Lord's sheep, but this does not mean we should let people pull the wool over our eyes! The reason we must judge (v. 6). As God's people, we are privileged to handle the "holy things" of the Lord. He has entrusted to us the precious truths of the Word of God (2 Cor. 4:7), and we must regard them carefully. No dedicated priest would throw meat from the altar to a filthy dog, and only a fool would give pearls to a pig. While it is true that we must carry the Gospel "to every creature" (Mark 16:15), it is also true that we must not cheapen the Gospel by a ministry that lacks discernment. Even Jesus refused to talk to Herod (Luke 23:9), and Paul refused to argue with people who resisted the Word (Acts 13:44-49). The reason for judgment, then, is not that we might condemn others, but that we might be able to minister to them. Notice that Jesus always dealt with individuals according to their needs and their spiritual condition. He did not have a memorized speech that He used with everybody. He discussed the new birth with Nicodemus, but He spoke of living water to the Samaritan woman. When the religious leaders tried to trap Him, He refused to answer their question (Matt. 21:23-27). It is a wise Christian who first assesses the condition of a person's heart before sharing the precious pearls. The above section taken from Warren W. Wiersbe, The Bible Exposition Commentary – New Testament, Volume 1, (Colorado Springs, CO: Victor, 2001)

We, as Christians, of all denominations or beliefs can have respectful dialog and communications with each other but usually it's quite evident as to a person's intent when they make a post, ask a question or make a reply. If the question or reply is one of respectful inquiry or even contrasting opinion then I do not feel that we should ignore the person or the conversation. If the person is crude rude, seeking to be a bad forum neighbor or be destructive to you or Christ then we should make our own personal decision as whether or not it is beneficial, to the Cause of Christ, to continue the dialog with the person or that particular topic.

I personally believe Jennifer's reason for posting to be legit and out of curiosity as to seek other forum members or other peoples, who believe differently than her, opinions about this specific question as to How we got here and why we are here for the questions are usually something all of us deal with at one point or another in our lives.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
How did it happen that we're here? A question none of us will ever know. While we're alive and wondering we keep asking how and why. The disagreement seems to only be how. To most atheists the how is evolution. The why it happened, who knows. To christians the how is god, but again the why is who knows. If your opinion is different give us new ideas.


Whether Christian, Atheist, Muslim or Buddhist, what ever religion or non-religion I believe you are right in that most likely none of us will ever really know how we got here, the process of being or creation. Whatever method all creation/life/space etc got here it surely is beyond the ability of our minds to conceive and understand. There are many who believe in Intelligent Design and reject the Big Bang believing that it is inconceivable that such expanse came from "nothing". Even atheistic Scientist will, most that is if they are truthful, suspect that there was something before the "Big Bang".

To Christians/Jews/Muslims they believe they were Creations of God (although different Religions have a different name for God they refer to a prime supreme monotheistic Deity). Many who believe in Creation still have no idea of the process by which Creation happened but they maintain faith that it was by God's hand/Mind.

I personally believe we, Life, the world was created by God, out of God with God being a supreme inconceivable, all powerful, Deity that exist, dwells and lives in a Spiritual realm that is apart from the Physical Realm that we see and live and dwell in. I do not have a problem believing that the Physical Realm happened, developed and became out of the Spiritual realm if but from the Thought or Mind of God in a process of Creation that we will never understand or be able to duplicate. I also see and understand God to be above and beyond our human ability to conceive of Him or what or who God is. I feel that God's own terminology of Himself, that He gave to Moses, was the best way to understand Him. That is "I AM" the great "I AM" ... What more can you say about someone that is so far beyond our understanding or ability to describe. I also do not discount that God could have other life form creations apart from human and other life on earth. If we/man/humans are to ever interact with alien life forms through their visitation or ours then I honestly feel that the ONLY common communication or understanding will be a Spiritual one, of a Deity/Creator.

As for the "Why" we are here. That alone could be different for each and every person to answer. I have faith though that each of us are here for a purpose and whether we ever fulfill that purpose could be a function of our own intimate relationship with God for if we were created in His image and special, apart from all other creation, then there surely is a purpose for each of us and quite possibly we will find peace with ourselves when we feel we have achieved that purpose. Quite possibly in order to actually understand the WHY of our purpose in being here, in being created then we would have to understand the mind of God which I believe to be an impossibility so at best then our personal answers lie in faith. Others would say it's all philosophical.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
That's another question I keep seeing over and over again - the question of "fearing" God. You keep saying He demands our love or He will send us to Hell. But that isn't the way it works.

In my cat analogy, the cat "said" she wanted to run away because my "cruelty" proved that I didn't love her. Now if she DID run away and got hit by a car, would it be because I condemned her to be killed by a car? No, it would be because it happened. The only way I could prevent that would be to lock her in the house and never let her go outside. In other words, to deprive her of free will.

So if a person chooses to "run away" from God, and they end up in Hell, it is THEIR CHOICE, a choice they made through the free will God has given us.

Another analogy I made yesterday was the toddler and the hot burner. If you tell your toddler not to touch the burner and they do anyway, did you CONDEMN your child to be burned? Of course not. You told the child not to do it, but the child's poor understanding led them to touch it anyway.

Now SOME toddlers will obey their parents unquestioningly. Others won't. Some will TRUST that their parents are right, others question WHY their parents tell them not to do something.The ones who obey stay safe, while the ones who don't, get burned.

Hi O,

Good analogies -- and so true. God loves us so much that He gave us free will. We get to decide our own eternal destiny -- heaven or hell. This seems far better than being a robot.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
My husband and I created two humans. They love us. We would have failed as parents/humans if they feared us.

Hi Jennifer,

Actually, God created all mankind to be in fellowship with Him. That was and is His desire, that all people come to saving faith and do not perish. Yet, He gave us free will -- so, we get to decide.

So, even though God created us for fellowship with Him -- He loves us enough that we get to choose if we want His fellowship or not.

If we want His fellowship and, by grace, through faith, we can receives His free gift of eternal life.

If we reject His fellowship, we have chosen to spend eternity away from God -- and the only other choice is hell. But, it is a choice everyone gets to make for himself/herself.

Yes, God created man and woman -- and through that blessed union -- He works to create children. You did not create your children -- God did.

He only made you the steward to watch over them and guide them in this life. If you guide them toward eternal happiness in the presence of God; you have fulfilled the stewardship job He gave you. The rest I leave to your intelligence and imagination.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
.

In my cat analogy, the cat "said" she wanted to run away because my "cruelty" proved that I didn't love her. Now if she DID run away and got hit by a car, would it be because I condemned her to be killed by a car? No, .


YES!

you, as god, set up the whole process of condemnation and reward. in your casem you built the road and set the car in motion then set the cat beside the road and threw a cat toy across the street just as the car approached.

yeah, i guess the cat has a "choice" to make but you, as it's master, are stil negligent for the whole design of the experiment.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
YES!

you, as god, set up the whole process of condemnation and reward. in your casem you built the road and set the car in motion then set the cat beside the road and threw a cat toy across the street just as the car approached.

yeah, i guess the cat has a "choice" to make but you, as it's master, are stil negligent for the whole design of the experiment.


LOL, not even close.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
YES!

you, as god, set up the whole process of condemnation and reward. in your casem you built the road and set the car in motion then set the cat beside the road and threw a cat toy across the street just as the car approached.

yeah, i guess the cat has a "choice" to make but you, as it's master, are stil negligent for the whole design of the experiment.


LOL, not even close.


well, i guess that settles it, then?

so tell us, who set up the system of reward and punishment, b50?
Gbrk, Jennifer hates me, and if I told her the sky was blue she would have some kind of snarky remark accompanied by a denial that it was blue. This is what I posted:

quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
That's another question I keep seeing over and over again - the question of "fearing" God. You keep saying He demands our love or He will send us to Hell. But that isn't the way it works.

In my cat analogy, the cat "said" she wanted to run away because my "cruelty" proved that I didn't love her. Now if she DID run away and got hit by a car, would it be because I condemned her to be killed by a car? No, it would be because it happened. The only way I could prevent that would be to lock her in the house and never let her go outside. In other words, to deprive her of free will.

So if a person chooses to "run away" from God, and they end up in Hell, it is THEIR CHOICE, a choice they made through the free will God has given us.

Another analogy I made yesterday was the toddler and the hot burner. If you tell your toddler not to touch the burner and they do anyway, did you CONDEMN your child to be burned? Of course not. You told the child not to do it, but the child's poor understanding led them to touch it anyway.

Now SOME toddlers will obey their parents unquestioningly. Others won't. Some will TRUST that their parents are right, others question WHY their parents tell them not to do something.The ones who obey stay safe, while the ones who don't, get burned.


And THIS was her reply:

quote:
Oh Gosh, not this silly "Fluffy" thing again.

"I don't know what she's rambling about."

Now it seems to me that if she wanted to have any kind of discussion, with me at least, instead of calling that post "rambling", she would have responded to my assertion that we have free will, and it is we who condemn ourselves. But Jennifer is not interested in having any kind of civil discussion with me.

As for the pastor who gave me advice, I have spoken to him about these forums quite often. I have told him about how NSNS and Unob deliberately misunderstand what some of us post so that they can carry in with their smug ideas that Christians are deluded. I have told him how they try to bait us.

So in this case, I think he was right, and their intentions and motivations are often not worthy of response.

MY problem is, I love the Lord so much I can't stand back and see Him LIED about, so I get into it with them quite often. I should probably heed the pastor's advice more often!

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