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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Actually, God created all mankind to be in fellowship with Him. That was and is His desire, that all people come to saving faith and do not perish.


This can be backed up by Scripture.

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Yet, He gave us free will -- so, we get to decide.


This however cannot. If you think you can then please try. I assure you I will be open minded and I will seriously consider any Scripture you claim proves we have free will. Your word Mr. Gray is not enough to convince, no offense and nothing personal.

quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:

Hi O,

Good analogies -- and so true. God loves us so much that He gave us free will. We get to decide our own eternal destiny -- heaven or hell. This seems far better than being a robot.


You know I do not believe in a will that is free, and I have told you before I most certainly do not feel like a robot. Although I can see the similarities in someone with no free will and a robot. Having no free will is like being a robot in certain ways. Humans have been programmed by the Programmer with a weak heart, one that is too weak to resist sin. The Jewish Publication Society Bible says it best.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceeding weak - who can know it?

Mat 15:18 "But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.
Mat 15:19 "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders.

Scriptures tell us that is how we were created.

Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

As you probably already know it takes the Programmer to reprogram and give a new heart to man.

Eze 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.

There are other similarities, and if you have any please share. This is off topic so start a new thread if you must.

Just to reiterate, I do not believe I have free will, and I do not feel like a robot, because I'm not a robot. Personally, if humanity really did have free will, I believe this world would be a much worse place to live in, its bad enough already. But because God is in complete control I'm very thankful. Man is weak and evil enough, we dont need no free will to make it worse.

Peace,

gdriggs
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Gbrk, Jennifer hates me, and if I told her the sky was blue she would have some kind of snarky remark accompanied by a denial that it was blue.

quote:
:
Oh Gosh, not this silly "Fluffy" thing again.

"I don't know what she's rambling about."



Jenn didn't do the Fluffy one, that was dopie. Big Grin

quote:
Opie Cunningham

Posted 11 February 2011 12:05 PM Hide Post

Oh Gosh, not this silly "Fluffy" thing again.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Red Face Guys, you're making me blush.

It's true though - I do love cats. I love all animals. I TRY to love all people too, but some of them make it so difficult.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Some people are too difficult, they go in the moderly fond location.

Some people go in the the "If I would whip their ass I could
like them better"


.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Your 'version' has 'God' teasing the cat into the path of the car to be killed on purpose. That is not what ONO was saying.
.


of course that was not what she was saying. she just didn't think it all the way through and, as usual, stumbled over her own logic.

god "teasd" adam and eve by building a beautiful, "perfect" haven for humankind but planted a incredible tree right in the middle of it. this tree bore the most delisious fruit known to, well, man, at the time. he placed the tree then also installed a Mark II Talking Snake that enticed eve to come eat a bit of the fruit. as fully expected (remember, god is onmiscient) eve ate from the tree of knowledge, gained some smarts, denied god's existence and, 6000 years later, look where that's gotten us.

god threw the cat toy across the street and dared the cat to fetch it. b50, only the most insane among us would beleive such a tale yet people like you and ono just eat it up.

eiher god is who you guys says he is and designed this system of reward and punishment or doesn't exist at all. common sense would dictate that he doesn't exist.

grow up, girls.
quote:
As for the pastor who gave me advice, I have spoken to him about these forums quite often. I have told him about how NSNS and Unob deliberately misunderstand what some of us post so that they can carry in with their smug ideas that Christians are deluded. I have told him how they try to bait us.



why not have him come on the forum and tell us what he thinks? i'd absolutely love to debate a real pastor instead of you wannabes.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
god threw the cat toy across the street and dared the cat to fetch it. b50, only the most insane among us would beleive such a tale yet people like you and ono just eat it up.

eiher god is who you guys says he is and designed this system of reward and punishment or doesn't exist at all. common sense would dictate that he doesn't exist.

grow up, girls.


I haven't been a 'girl' for many years, UNOB, I'm probably older than you. So now I'm also insane and have no common sense. Anything else you want to throw out?
Nothing about religion makes any sense. Nothing about the bible makes sense. Bill and others tell you that you have a choice to believe or not believe. I hate to go there again but that's just not true.

You have people that claim to have been abducted by aliens and they have as much proof of that as bill does of his god. I wonder if bill believes them? How about ghosts? There is plenty of proof to support people that believe in ghosts. Do you believe in ghosts bill? There seems to be plenty of proof that "bigfoot" exists. How about him bill? We could go on and on about things people believe, and have as much proof exists, as bill's god.

Now bill and others are going to say that's an old atheist argument. It's not an argument, it's a fact. People believe all sorts of things and they all have "proof" of the things they believe. Most of these things are harmless, but some are dangerous. You have people killing others over religion, and you have other religions provoking them to do it. So it's natural for atheists to ask "where's your god, didn't you say he was in control"?

Bill says that his god gave us "free will" to believe in him or not. Bill likens that to a gift. We didn't ask for the gift, didn't want the gift, but according to bill we have to take it. Now read the fine print on the instructions that came with that gift. We can only use it for the purpose to believe in and worship the gift giver or else he will torture us for eternity. And bill is quick to point out to us that eternity is a long long time. Duh bill, that's why they call it eternity.

And to top it all off bill and others want this taught to our children in schools and everywhere else they can think of, and they want it in our politics too. Look at the thread bill started about "your christian duty" to vote. Seems bill doesn't think atheists have a right or duty to vote.
Very good post Jennifer. For those that are caught up in their religious indoctrine will not and can not understand a lot of what you are saying. Maybe it did get through to a few. We can only hope. Religion is a superstition. Nothing more and nothing less. Yet, it has become so powerful that murder and mass killings are justified in the name of Gods everyday. Scary stuff. How dare we question their dogma! I guess the rest of us are just supposed to sit back and watch as they continue to try and destroy humanity.
Jennifer,

I have had that discussion with so many of my christian friends and it just goes in a huge circle. It's a gift, yet a gift with consequences. Luckily me and you both know that it is all hocus pocus anyway. Smiler I don't fear hell or retribution from a god that does not exist.

I would really like to encourage anyone reading this that has not "come out" as a non-believer to start today. It is time we stand up and call foul on this way of thinking. If you don't believe in god or religion then make a statement. We have to stop fearing the wrath of some christians and society. It is the only way to make a real change. I do understand how hard it is. However, the numbers are growing everyday of non-believers. You are not alone. There are a lot more of us out here then many may think. Wink

Our voices have to be heard. If we don't stand up and be counted then we will suffer the consequences in the here and now. Religion is pushing us all into a hell right here on earth. I don't believe that many of my christian friends see it that way. They are good people. They love this country and humans with a kind and good heart. They just don't see what the religious leaders and those in power are doing to use their fear of eternal ****ation and religious indoctrination to further their own agendas.

Bill's post is a perfect example of how they are going about it. When the churches started using the pulpit to direct American politics this country suffered and continues to do so. I know that there are many good people here that believe in god. They do not agree with Bill. They also need to be more vocal against those in their own religion to stop this kind of thing. The harder those like Bill push to further their agenda in the political arena the harder non-theist are going to push back. I think most good religious people just want to be left alone to worship and believe as they want to. They should not let those like Bill take their personal beliefs into an area it has no business being in America. That is what separates us from countries like Iran. I would like to keep it that way.

For those interested look up and join your local Humanist or Atheist groups. It's time to stop hiding and be heard. Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
god threw the cat toy across the street and dared the cat to fetch it. b50, only the most insane among us would beleive such a tale yet people like you and ono just eat it up.

eiher god is who you guys says he is and designed this system of reward and punishment or doesn't exist at all. common sense would dictate that he doesn't exist.

grow up, girls.


I haven't been a 'girl' for many years, UNOB, I'm probably older than you. So now I'm also insane and have no common sense. Anything else you want to throw out?


b50, you seem to have a problem with seperating "insane statements" from "insane people." you cla imi called you stupid when i never once said that, now you say i'm calling you insane and saying you have no common sense, i've never, ever said such a thing.

i am stupid about many subjects. i am perhaps a little crazy about some things, i am sure i lack some common sense in some subject matter though i can't think of it at the moment. that does NOT mean I (or you) are stupid, insane and lack common sense.

once again, this is a case of some people's inability to seperate fiction from reality that is common with people who insist they talk to invisible supermen in the sky.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Your 'version' has 'God' teasing the cat into the path of the car to be killed on purpose. That is not what ONO was saying.
.


of course that was not what she was saying. she just didn't think it all the way through and, as usual, stumbled over her own logic.

god "teasd" adam and eve by building a beautiful, "perfect" haven for humankind but planted a incredible tree right in the middle of it. this tree bore the most delisious fruit known to, well, man, at the time. he placed the tree then also installed a Mark II Talking Snake that enticed eve to come eat a bit of the fruit. as fully expected (remember, god is onmiscient) eve ate from the tree of knowledge, gained some smarts, denied god's existence and, 6000 years later, look where that's gotten us.

god threw the cat toy across the street and dared the cat to fetch it. b50, only the most insane among us would beleive such a tale yet people like you and ono just eat it up.

eiher god is who you guys says he is and designed this system of reward and punishment or doesn't exist at all. common sense would dictate that he doesn't exist.

grow up, girls.


Yet MORE proof that you don't know what you're talking about. Show me where the Bible says that Eve denied God's existence. That was YOU, not Eve. Guess it's YOU who didn't think your post all the way through.

What a sad individual you are.
quote:
I guess the rest of us are just supposed to sit back and watch as they continue to try and destroy humanity.


I would say you are all very vocal.

quote:
Luckily me and you both know that it is all hocus pocus anyway.


One of the reason the religious get a little testy.

Add to that the comments of insane, irrational, delusional, ignorant, uneducated, stupid, and illogical and you get the picture.

Not all people are like Bill. Few really are.


I don't want religion in government or school. I do want Christianity given the same treatment as a religion as any other instead of shut out of schools. Schools teach about all the others but barely mention Christianity.

I don't care for fundys any more than any of you.

I don't care for Jihadists any more than you.

I don't care for people blasting me about God at Walmart any more than you.

I don't care for the JW to come to my door any more than you.

I don't like being insulted or called a bad mother (father) any more than you.

I don't like being told what to do any more than you.

I don't like being bullied into silence any more than you.

If you ridicule someone long enough, one of two things happen. They retreat into their own world never to leave it again, or they turn violent.

Neither is a good outcome.

So have a meeting, get together and discuss the world, but don't annihilate the part you don't agree with.

Peace.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
b50, you seem to have a problem with seperating "insane statements" from "insane people." you cla imi called you stupid when i never once said that, now you say i'm calling you insane and saying you have no common sense, i've never, ever said such a thing.

i am stupid about many subjects. i am perhaps a little crazy about some things, i am sure i lack some common sense in some subject matter though i can't think of it at the moment. that does NOT mean I (or you) are stupid, insane and lack common sense.

once again, this is a case of some people's inability to seperate fiction from reality that is common with people who insist they talk to invisible supermen in the sky.


I was typing when you posted this. So I completely misunderstood this line:

quote:
. b50, only the most insane among us would beleive such a tale yet people like you and ono just eat it up.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
I guess the rest of us are just supposed to sit back and watch as they continue to try and destroy humanity.


I would say you are all very vocal.

quote:
Luckily me and you both know that it is all hocus pocus anyway.


One of the reason the religious get a little testy.

Add to that the comments of insane, irrational, delusional, ignorant, uneducated, stupid, and illogical and you get the picture.

Not all people are like Bill. Few really are.


I don't want religion in government or school. I do want Christianity given the same treatment as a religion as any other instead of shut out of schools. Schools teach about all the others but barely mention Christianity.

I don't care for fundys any more than any of you.

I don't care for Jihadists any more than you.

I don't care for people blasting me about God at Walmart any more than you.

I don't care for the JW to come to my door any more than you.

I don't like being insulted or called a bad mother (father) any more than you.

I don't like being told what to do any more than you.

I don't like being bullied into silence any more than you.

If you ridicule someone long enough, one of two things happen. They retreat into their own world never to leave it again, or they turn violent.

Neither is a good outcome.

So have a meeting, get together and discuss the world, but don't annihilate the part you don't agree with.

Peace.


b,

Why would you think a Humanist or atheist meeting would even talk about annihilating ANYTHING. I said there are many christians that feel the exact same way many non-believers feel about religion in politics. If you are one of them then great! I love those christians. Smiler I just wish they would stand up and be more vocal in their own group.

We have been bullied into silence for a very very long time. I think that is why we are seeing a very fast growing number of non-believers speaking out these days. We got tired of hiding and worrying about our job safety or our standing in the community based on our non-belief. I think that many christians see that as a threat to their beliefs. I am not here to threaten yours or anyone elses beliefs. I just want it kept where it should be. A personal choice. A personal lifestyle. I should not have to abide by a religion I have no belief in.

I have been told I am not happy and can't possibly be happy without god.

I have been told I worship myself and money because I don't believe in god.

I have been told I am selfish and cold because I don't believe in god.

I have been told I am immoral because I don't believe in god.

I have been told I worship evil (satan) because I don't believe in god.

My work has been threatened due to my voicing my disbelief in god.

My children were treated badly by parents who didn't want their children associating with mine because I didn't believe in god.

I have been told I can't speak my opinion or that my opinion is disrespectful. Even when I say it in the nicest way possible.

Of course I think it is hocus pocus, otherwise I would still be a believer. You might not think it is and that is fine with me.

When I was young I didn't even know any atheist. Even as a teen you just never heard of such in this area. When I become atheist I didn't know anyone else personally that thought as I did. It was a very lonely place to be. When I finally started finding other like minded people I realized they had always been there. They like me had to hide due to the social stigma attached to non-belief in this area. That is no way to live. I am so happy to see that changing and I want to encourage it to continue. That is not meant as a threat to you or anyone else.
B-I don't think I have called all christians stupid. I do know I have said that the christians I know are very intelligent, and I also said I wonder how they, being so intelligent, can believe. That's not to say because I don't believe I think I'm smarter. It just makes me wonder why they do. I've posted that it might be a need they have, it might be the way they were raised and they never questioned it, I just don't know. Like I told bill one time-some people are just stupid and would be stupid whether or not they believed. The same thing goes for an intelligent person.

I've repeated over and over that bill is not like any christian I know now or grew up around, but I have seen his kind all my life. That's why I try to include the phrase "bill and others" or "most or some" in my posts instead of "all you christians". I might slip sometimes and lump all christians together but it's just a lapse.

You have to admit that most of the posts on here lump all atheists together and paint us as wild, wicked, selfish, uncaring, non-thinking supporters of all things evil and wrong, unwilling to give up the wild life for their god. A couple of "christian" posters even sink so low to claim that atheists condone bestiality, and who knows how many agree with them but don't post it.
I can only name a few that I feel are the kind of Christian that give all others a bad name. Bill Gray being the ring leader and ONO being the side show.

Most Christians I meet are pretty nice folks. I still don't agree with them or think their religion is valid, but its their right to believe and I support that. I don't go around telling every Christian or religious person that I think their belief is stupid an unfounded. This is a religious forum though and I feel this is the place to say what you feel and voice your opinion. Not in polite society. I don't understand how intelligent people believe in a God either. I will say I know some really intelligent people that believe in all kinds of stupid things. Even some atheist I know have some strange and stupid ideas. I would not be rude and straight up confront them about it in polite conversation. But if they came to a forum and that was the subject I would sure tell them how I feel. Its called debate and discussion. If you can't handle hearing what others thoughts are about your on views then don't open them up to strangers on a public forum for ridicule. I don't care what the Christians on here think about my non belief. I don't even care if they think I find farm animals attractive. That is just highlights even more their stupidity.
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
quote:
If you can't handle hearing what others thoughts are about your on views then don't open them up to strangers on a public forum for ridicule.


I see, we Christians have to learn to handle YOUR opinion, but when YOU don't like someone's opinion you get to call them a "side show". Um hmm...


Once again you conveniently left off the next line that contradicts your statement above. I don't care what you say about me personally. Go ahead and say whatever you want about me and my opinions. Its a free country. Just be ready for me to fire back if it is taken out of context or if you are just making unfounded and inaccurate remarks. That is how it works.

Now what is your next act? I can hardly wait to see.
Jank, read DA's post again. I am being accused of giving Christians a bad name. Why is that? Because I state my opinion! My opinions are not that much different from the opinions of some of the "well liked" Christians on this board, but because I don't back down and say "I like you anyway" after being called deluded and deranged for my belief, DA has a problem with me.

The whole point of DA's post was that we should be able to handle what is said about us on a public forum. Telling me I give Christians a bad name seems to say that DA CAN'T handle what I say here - at least not without coming back at me with some kind of insult.

I think I have made some pretty good points here, and judging from the PMs I have recieved, a lot of the other Christians on the board think so too. Some of them agree with me but don't care for confrontation, so I am the one who gets to speak out and get castigated for it.

If DA or Slim or Unob said to me in person what they have said on this board, I would let it go as the rantings of some people whose opinions don't matter to me because THEY don't matter to me.

But when they do it on a public forum, I will defend myself and my faith, because I wouldn't want anyone reading this board to think that you have to be deranged to believe in God. I wouldn't want them to think they have to be quiet about their faith so that no one accuses THEM of being deluded.

Here is DA's post. Tell me please, what I have taken out of context.

quote:
Originally posted by DarkAngel:
I can only name a few that I feel are the kind of Christian that give all others a bad name. Bill Gray being the ring leader and ONO being the side show.

Most Christians I meet are pretty nice folks. I still don't agree with them or think their religion is valid, but its their right to believe and I support that. I don't go around telling every Christian or religious person that I think their belief is stupid an unfounded. This is a religious forum though and I feel this is the place to say what you feel and voice your opinion. Not in polite society. I don't understand how intelligent people believe in a God either. I will say I know some really intelligent people that believe in all kinds of stupid things. Even some atheist I know have some strange and stupid ideas. I would not be rude and straight up confront them about it in polite conversation. But if they came to a forum and that was the subject I would sure tell them how I feel. Its called debate and discussion. If you can't handle hearing what others thoughts are about your on views then don't open them up to strangers on a public forum for ridicule. I don't care what the Christians on here think about my non belief. I don't even care if they think I find farm animals attractive. That is just highlights even more their stupidity.
quote:
If you can't handle hearing what others thoughts are about your on views then don't open them up to strangers on a public forum for ridicule.


Fair enough. Then all the high and mighty, smarter-than-thou atheists can kiss my Christian butt. Is that handling it? LOL

Now, would you like me to make fun of Hitchens or Dawkins?
Last edited by b50m
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
A couple of "christian" posters even sink so low to claim that atheists condone bestiality, and who knows how many agree with them but don't post it.

The only one i know who said that was buffalo. Buffalo is crazy. End of story.
Did you happen to catch peter's act?

Nope
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
quote:
A couple of "christian" posters even sink so low to claim that atheists condone bestiality, and who knows how many agree with them but don't post it.

The only one i know who said that was buffalo. Buffalo is crazy. End of story.
Did you happen to catch peter's act?

Nope
He gets all torn up about it, "screaming" in caps.
Peter who, The Peter Riley (sp) I think?

If so, I'll go look them up.

................................................

I looked it up. Never-mind. He's as crazy as buffalo. (no offense to Peter and Buffalo, bless your little hearts LOL)

I usually skip any topic with homosexuality in it. Not because I'm against it but because it always gets nasty.
Last edited by b50m
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Jennifer,

I have had that discussion with so many of my christian friends and it just goes in a huge circle. It's a gift, yet a gift with consequences. Luckily me and you both know that it is all hocus pocus anyway. Smiler I don't fear hell or retribution from a god that does not exist.

I would really like to encourage anyone reading this that has not "come out" as a non-believer to start today. It is time we stand up and call foul on this way of thinking. If you don't believe in god or religion then make a statement. We have to stop fearing the wrath of some christians and society. It is the only way to make a real change. I do understand how hard it is. However, the numbers are growing everyday of non-believers. You are not alone. There are a lot more of us out here then many may think. Wink

Our voices have to be heard. If we don't stand up and be counted then we will suffer the consequences in the here and now. Religion is pushing us all into a hell right here on earth. I don't believe that many of my christian friends see it that way. They are good people. They love this country and humans with a kind and good heart. They just don't see what the religious leaders and those in power are doing to use their fear of eternal ****ation and religious indoctrination to further their own agendas.

Bill's post is a perfect example of how they are going about it. When the churches started using the pulpit to direct American politics this country suffered and continues to do so. I know that there are many good people here that believe in god. They do not agree with Bill. They also need to be more vocal against those in their own religion to stop this kind of thing. The harder those like Bill push to further their agenda in the political arena the harder non-theist are going to push back. I think most good religious people just want to be left alone to worship and believe as they want to. They should not let those like Bill take their personal beliefs into an area it has no business being in America. That is what separates us from countries like Iran. I would like to keep it that way.

For those interested look up and join your local Humanist or Atheist groups. It's time to stop hiding and be heard. Big Grin


Jank dear,

How long can you guarantee us this position you now hold is permanent ,should we subscribe ,and is not based on the cognitive ambiguity from which you chose it?
quote:
Originally posted by O No!:
Yet MORE proof that you don't know what you're talking about. Show me where the Bible says that Eve denied God's existence.


ono, you are right, it is an inference. the fruit was from the tree of knowledge. this is the bibles way of saying "don't educate yourself of you will get smart enough to deny the existence of god,"

this parable was was a way to hold onto the minds of the people back then and to justify why only priests should be able to read and write, everyone else was just too dumb.

eve was, of course, responsible for giving us the ability to deny god, right? if she never ate of the fruit, you and i wold not be having this insane conversation.
quote:
My work has been threatened due to my voicing my disbelief in god.


I work for a fundamentalist Christian. The first time he asked me about my thoughts on religion, I told him the frank truth.

We're good friends, just with a disagreement. He might fire me tomorrow, but it won't be about that.

If more fundies were like that, things would be a little better. Now, if I can just talk him out of voting....



nsns

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