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There are 13 'proofs' in this discussion. I have listed only a part of number one. Good reading.


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/nogod.html

Atheists have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?
by Rich Deem

Proof #1: The theodice problem:

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume: If the evil in the world is intended by God he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since God is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only God can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that God, and not Satan created the universe?

It is true that God cannot be both almighty and good if you restrict Him to our level - three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. However, this God is not the God of reality or Christianity, since both the Bible and science would indicate that God must exist in more than three dimensions of space and one dimension of time. The Bible says the universe cannot contain God (1), indicating He must exist and operate in dimensions of space and time other than those to which we are confined. The Bible also says God created time and was acting before time began (2), confirming that God exists in at least two dimensions of time. A single dimension of time (a line) has a beginning point and can only travel in one direction. Two dimensions of time (a plane) has no beginning or ending so that a being existing in such a plane would be free to move to any point along any line of time within that plane.

Both of these descriptions of God are confirmed by what we know from science. According to particle physics and relativity, at least nine dimensions of space existed at the creation of the universe. God must be able to operate in all of those nine dimensions in order to have created the universe. A verse from the book of Hebrews indicates God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us (3). Stephen Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose extended the equations for general relativity to include space and time (4). Not only space, but also time has a beginning - at the moment of creation. Therefore, if God created the universe, He was acting before the creation of time, indicating He exists in at least two dimensions of time. If God existed in only one dimension of time, then He would have had to have been created at one point. The Bible says God was not created, but has existed from eternity past to eternity future.
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The temporary nature of the universe and created beings requires that the universe operate under the law of entropy. If there were no entropy, we could not be tested since we would, by definition, be eternal and not have to face the mortality of our existence. Such an existence would not require our dependence upon God, since we would never have to face Him. The law of entropy guarantees our mortality and that we will suffer pain and death at some point. Neither pain nor death is evil from a Christian perspective. For example, pain is a necessary function in our lives. If we could not feel pain, we would end up causing serious damage to ourselves. Whenever I get burned, I move my hand rapidly away from the source of the pain. If I had no pain receptors, I would probably continue to burn my hand until I noticed the smoke. This would obviously not be a good thing to do. Likewise, death is required in a universe governed by entropy. Without animal death, very soon all the carbon on the earth would be bound in living organisms, with none available for photosynthesis.

Most atheists define evil according to their own interpretation. By defining evil as things they don't like, they have created a circular argument guaranteed to "prove the non-existence" of God. The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings.

Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings. Nice play on words, but it doesn't stand up to examination.

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Better watch out B,  you'll be chastised for daring to start a topic where the content has been covered before.  I'm going to make a note of the link you provided and check out the articles for it looks interesting.  I'm sure though that you know, and expect, that no logical argument against not believing in God will be soundly rejected but, in my opinion, you countered very well.

 

What many who do not believe, even in anything, do not realize is we all exercise FAITH.  Even in disbelief or non-belief there is faith that their choice/belief/opinion is the correct one.  As I'm sure you saw I created a topic, for those who do not believe, asking the reason or basis for their denial that God exist and seems I can't even ask a simple question without some chastisement for doing so.  While I vowed not to post (preach) within that subject I will state this.  From what I've seen so far the depth of the basis of peoples disbelief lies more in a lack of tangible, physical, visible or touchable proof of God.  It seems at times from other non-believers that I have talked to, off the forum and in person, that they feel and believe that God, whoever He is thought to be, should humble himself and stop whatever He has to do just to manifest Himself in a physical demonstrative way before them.  Sorta like the reported burning bush moment in Moses life. 

 

Right or Wrong I've always felt that I don't want a God that I can understand and comprehend His rationale and every thought for if I could then God would surely be limited and unable to keep order in disorder and chaos.  I've also always felt that God, as great as God is did essentially what a lot of skeptics requested, that is manifest Himself in a Physical way before mankind.  Is that not what Jesus Christ was?  The manifestation of God in human flesh that could be touched and talked to and interacted with.  The need for God to manifest, likewise, Himself before every skeptic is unreasonable for just to conceive that any Spiritual deity that would manifest Himself with physical limitations and then subject Himself to torment, ridicule and death for humans who, many of which, deny Him still today is just unfathomable to me.

 

Skeptics request and demand physical proof of God and although it didn't come in our time frame in our life time I do believe God did just that for Mankind.  What more can one expect of a deity, if in deed God is Real (as I fully trust and believe He is).  No truer statement was made as when it was said that for the skeptic no amount of evidence or proof will ever be enough and for the true believer no evidence or proof is needed.

 

There are also some, seemingly more valid, reasons for not believing in God such as unanswered prayer and yes people can say you received your answer or you didn't wait long enough or some other reason and those may be valid reasons yet for the person involved, and there may be many with that same story, it doesn't seem so and it seems as if God left them alone or wasn't there.  It's easy to make judgments based upon certain events and only the individual involved knows the state of their life and their relationship with God at the time of their request.  For someone else to judge that relationship and attempt to make judgments to that person would be wrong but anyone who does not receive answers or the answer they want to prayer should always evaluate the possible reasons for not getting that answer.  Among those reasons is yes that God doesn't exist but also among the reasons is what is the relationship between the person and God at the time of the need?  Is that person a true Christian having the Holy Spirit who makes intercession direct with God and IS God?  If an unsaved person makes a request of God it is the belief of believers that God only hears one prayer from a non-believing person and answers only one prayer and that is for salvation and forgiveness.  Even after that the best Christians sometimes do not get the answers to their prayers that they desire.  Each individual must and has to make their own decisions and evaluate their own situations and needs.

 

Just a few of my comments for your Subject.

 


I can't prove the non- existence of god. Nobody can.

You can't prove his existence.

 

I don't believe in god's existence because I have never seen any evidence of it.

I'm pretty sure you believe in god because you were taught to and eventually justified the belief by wanting to, just like the people who taught you to believe did.

 

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I can't prove the non- existence of god. Nobody can.

You can't prove his existence.

 

I don't believe in god's existence because I have never seen any evidence of it.

I'm pretty sure you believe in god because you were taught to and eventually justified the belief by wanting to, just like the people who taught you to believe did.

 

Actually RP I do have very personal and valid (at least to me) reasons that I believe in God/Deity/Angels etc.  If you care I'll tell you here in the open or would be glad to dialog it .. you're choice if you want to hear but it's "evidence" sufficient to me and happened to me. ...

 

I edited this to say I'll post it openly for all to see as I'm certainly not ashamed of it.

Most atheists define evil as something they don't like? I don't like those ugly "crocs" (shoes and the animals) so they're evil? OK, so that was flippant but I don't think many people have a hard time figuring out what is evil. As far as saying a god created evil, I've never heard an atheist say that. Same old argument-If you believe in a god, and give your god credit for all the good-why doesn't he get credit for all the evil? That is not saying he exists or that he created anything, it's saying you can't have it both ways. Either you believe he's in charge or you don't believe he is. The god game belongs to christians and they want to change the rules mid-game to suit their needs, and expect the "other team" to go along with it. That doesn't work. Pick a game plan and stick with it or take your team off the field.

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Most atheists define evil as something they don't like? I don't like those ugly "crocs" (shoes and the animals) so they're evil? OK, so that was flippant but I don't think many people have a hard time figuring out what is evil. As far as saying a god created evil, I've never heard an atheist say that. Same old argument-If you believe in a god, and give your god credit for all the good-why doesn't he get credit for all the evil? That is not saying he exists or that he created anything, it's saying you can't have it both ways. Either you believe he's in charge or you don't believe he is. The god game belongs to christians and they want to change the rules mid-game to suit their needs, and expect the "other team" to go along with it. That doesn't work. Pick a game plan and stick with it or take your team off the field.

---------------------------------------------------------------

But Jen,,,,We took our team off the field because we won,

not because your shoes are evil.

 

.

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I can't prove the non- existence of god. Nobody can.

You can't prove his existence.

 

I don't believe in god's existence because I have never seen any evidence of it.

I'm pretty sure you believe in god because you were taught to and eventually justified the belief by wanting to, just like the people who taught you to believe did.

 

Actually RP I do have very personal and valid (at least to me) reasons that I believe in God/Deity/Angels etc.  If you care I'll tell you here in the open or would be glad to dialog it .. you're choice if you want to hear but it's "evidence" sufficient to me and happened to me. ...

 

I edited this to say I'll post it openly for all to see as I'm certainly not ashamed of it.

======================================================================

 

I can dig it. I've heard all kinds of stories why people believe in god and they usually involve 'miracles' or ghosties or stuff that can be explained by more natural means.

 

Lemme ask ya this: Were ya taught to believe in god before ya discovered those reasons to believe?

 

Because I think if you were already programmed to believe, then anything after that in support of the belief is just self-justification of that belief.

 

A belief in something that evidence cannot be found to support and that cannot be proven requires blind faith, and blind faith is just another way of saying "I want it real bad."

 


 

Many Christians claim to have "experiences" or Spiritual encounters with God or God's Holy Spirit and none can be physically analyzed by scientific methods.  Scientific methods cannot tell us what our dreams are either yet they are very personal and real but that also is no "proof" of God.  Sufficient Proof or evidence is relative and true to each person that receives it or experiences it. 

 

Who knows how many times in a persons life that they have opportunities to meet/experience God or why.  If one accepts Creation or Intelligent Design then many can legitimately ask the question why are we (personally) here and for what purpose is our creation?  Essentially most all the answers are matters and issues of faith on each person's part.  If you believe and accept Evolution then there is no significance to human life or being human, nothing special about it for we are all products of an accident under just the right conditions.  As for our human lives and what we remember from our childhood or why we remember certain things I cannot explain but some have more vivid memories than others.

 

One reason I began to believe in something other than just what I could see before me and something that I could reach out and touch was something that happened to me as a child around 6 years old and yes I can remember it very vividly and it's no illusion, dream, or delusion.  I was with my father who collected newspapers to recycle or trade in for money (by the pound or weight) and once our car was weighed, with the papers, we proceeded to the location we were told to unload them.  This was a paper facility, in Chattanooga, that collected and bundled scrap paper to send off for processing in bails that was approximately 4 foot cubed in shape and stacked two or three high.  While my father was unloading our trunk of newspapers I was doing what any 6 year old child would do .. running around looking at all the papers on the ground and the magazine covers and just playing around.  One of the things that happened to be among the newspapers and magazines were computer programming cards .. the ones with the punched holes in them (this was before computers as we know them) and there was several of them.  While my father was waste deep in the trunk I was going about my playing when i noticed one of those punch cards sparkle, in fact a bright sparkling light flashing that caught my eye and drew my sole attention to it.  I actually felt like I was pushed toward the card as well as being drawn by the light.  As soon, I mean fraction of seconds, that I moved to to pick up the card one of those 4 ft cube bundles fell directly over and onto the place I was standing one second before.  It hit with such a thump that my father immediate raised up from the trunk, saw what happened and grabbed me up squeezing me so tight that I can remember it today.  I told him about the shiny punch card and even picked it up but there was nothing reflective on the card nor was there any reflective material on the ground.  Okay I wasn't a Christian, yes my dad was, but I can still today know and realize that I was pushed toward that shiny sparkling punch card.  The 4 ft Cube that fell down grazing my arm as it fell and hit with a thump was attempted to be moved by my father who could not raise it up due to it's weight.  As any child I didn't realize then the gravity of the situation nor how close I came to well not being there and having my father lose his only child.  Today I still look back and wonder if it was an angel or some supernatural force at play but one thing is for sure, at least to me, It wasn't nothing and it wasn't chance.  Accident or chance happening you may say but for me I'll never be convinced otherwise.  Does it prove God?  NO.  Does it prove to me that there is something other than what I can touch and see?  Yes, for me it does.  That was one experience.

 

I did edit this in response to a question you ask, that I read after my post.  No I was not taught at this age or before about Christ or Church as I might have known or thought about Jesus as a man or something we went on Sunday to Church to see but I was having fun and Church was drawing pictures with crayons so all this experience did for me was nothing religious but rather it gave me the distinct and sure impression that there was something out there that was beyond sight, something I could not see but was taking care of me.  After it happened my father got on his knees and prayed thanking God for my guarding angel but that was the first time I had heard that term also.  There was no pre-bias there but I do know what I felt, saw, and what was not found later.  I also know there was no way of survival if the events had not happened.  Why it happened, I can't say or know but I do know it happened just as I stated.  Afterwards yes you might say I was pre-disposed to believe there was something more than just the physical around us even though at that age I could not comprehend it or know what that meant.

Last edited by gbrk
Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Most atheists define evil as something they don't like? I don't like those ugly "crocs" (shoes and the animals) so they're evil? OK, so that was flippant but I don't think many people have a hard time figuring out what is evil. As far as saying a god created evil, I've never heard an atheist say that. Same old argument-If you believe in a god, and give your god credit for all the good-why doesn't he get credit for all the evil? That is not saying he exists or that he created anything, it's saying you can't have it both ways. Either you believe he's in charge or you don't believe he is. The god game belongs to christians and they want to change the rules mid-game to suit their needs, and expect the "other team" to go along with it. That doesn't work. Pick a game plan and stick with it or take your team off the field.

-----------------------------------

 

THAT'S the double standard.

 

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:

Most atheists define evil as something they don't like? I don't like those ugly "crocs" (shoes and the animals) so they're evil? OK, so that was flippant but I don't think many people have a hard time figuring out what is evil. As far as saying a god created evil, I've never heard an atheist say that. Same old argument-If you believe in a god, and give your god credit for all the good-why doesn't he get credit for all the evil? That is not saying he exists or that he created anything, it's saying you can't have it both ways. Either you believe he's in charge or you don't believe he is. The god game belongs to christians and they want to change the rules mid-game to suit their needs, and expect the "other team" to go along with it. That doesn't work. Pick a game plan and stick with it or take your team off the field.

-----------------------------------

 

THAT'S the double standard.

 

--------------------------------

Think about it.

 

.

As for the second, profound, event that I was going to relate I'll skip the time and reason I chose to believe and accept Jesus Christ but surface it to say I did feel and experience the presence of God's Holy Spirit and from within in a non-verbal and most demonstrative way I knew it was God.  But then I said I was not going to relate that one.

 

After I became a Christian/believer I was usually in Church most every opportunity.  Even after dating I would take dates with me as I chose Christians to date also.  One Wednesday, as any Good Baptist, I was at the last pew in the back of the Church not listening to the sermon but doing my own study and reading.  About half way through the sermon I kept feeling what I could best describe (now) as what felt like a heart attack.  My pulse was very fast, I became very sweaty and I felt the greatest of weight come over my whole body (that's the best way I can describe it).  I heard no voice and no words but impressed within my mind in ways that I can only say it happened and cannot explain the process I was impressed that I had to do something specific that day and at that time.  I had never gone forward, in a Church, to speak or anything and this was a Baptist Church where amen was never heard hardly and certainly not a Holy Ghost Pentecostal type Church. At the close of the pastor's message (as there was no invitation on Wednesday, just a closing prayer) I actually rose from my seat, as I felt impressed to do and I went the distance to the front of the Church and told a shocked pastor (no one did anything on Wednesday) that I felt God was telling me to do something.  What he ask and I said I don't know but I really need to say something.  What I was impressed to say was to say to someone, I didn't get some name or know who but I felt the strongest urging and impression to say, which I did, that someone in the Church this night, this day that was hearing my voice would never have another chance to make a decision for God and that I was told God was talking and dealing with them right now.  That was all I said .. you don't have tomorrow or another time so please make your decision today. 

 

At that the pastor chose to give one single invitation, never done on Wednesday, and immediately one woman rose and came forward, talked with the pastor, and returned to her seat. To this day I don't know what she said or what the pastor said although I did know the woman for she lived a block away from me.  After getting back from College courses the next afternoon my Uncle, who lived in the upstairs of my home, ask me if I had heard about Gwen (the woman down the street who came forward the night before) and I said no but immediately thought to the night before.   Yeah, my Uncle said, she lost it and went crazy today.  She lost her mind and they had to come take her away today.  From that day forward she remained until she died in the Moccasin Bend Mental Hospital and never regained her sanity or mind. 

 

Now granted it could be accidental, Some would or could say that I was responsible for her losing her mind by what I said that Wednesday night and she was unstable all along but no one knew it.  You can say anything if you don't believe in God or miracles or the such but for me, personally, I know what I experienced, I know what happened afterwards and the next day.  Sure it could be coincidence but I'll never be convinced of such. 

 

Now in my mind, as of this day, I've wondered at times was that my moment?  Did God have that specific event planned for me and therefore saved me from death as a child?  Questions without answers.  I do believe God has a purpose behind some of the Events that happen.  What happened to me was personal and I expect no one to believe it or accept it but it was and is and remains sufficient to me as along with other, non-related things, proof which I cling to and personally accept as personal evidence sufficient for myself to believe as I do. 

 

Each person believes as they do for a reason, or I hope they have a reason, and hopefully not just because someone tells them to or that they rely upon another person and put their faith in persuasive words from another individual.  As I said I'm not expecting anyone to believe me or accept it as God but for myself it's one thing that is sufficient and for me that's what counts.  All the other significant events put together and culminate, at least for me, that God does interact and communicate with His Created beings and has a purpose for us. 

 

You ask what, though, is the most convincing evidence that makes me believe in God?  No question it's the Holy Spirit, God's Holy Spirit which I received when I accepted Christ as my Savior and that Changed my life, mind, and essence as well as was unquestionable in my mind/body and soul.  I need no external evidence, I need not the two events I related to the group, I have enough to justify and maintain my belief and reliance upon God through Christ who continues to minister and maintain me through His Holy Spirit.  That is the basis of my belief and what I accept.  It's very personal, to me, but I don't mind sharing.  Is it basis for another to believe?  NO... I fully believe that each person must have their own personal encounter with God via God's Holy Spirit for until then God is not alive and real to anyone nor can any believer expect that to be the case.  It's not up to me to convince anyone of God, nor could I but I do very much believe God is capable of doing just that.  Communicating and relating to even the most avowed skeptic and atheist.  I do believe that.

 

As for any pre-bias or bias of a Church, Preacher or my Family I claim that is not what I rest my salvation upon.  I for one have differences with the Baptist Church and any other Church.  I choose to worship where I do because I feel comfortable, I feel that they believe closer to what I believe and accept and therefore I go there to worship, (give worth) to God and share and interact with others.  I have been in and a part of many different Churches and congregations including seeker Churches and have found good folks, and bad, in each of them.  I have found positives and negatives in all of them but the overriding thing that maintains my faith and keeps me is God's Holy Spirit and not a preacher, Church, teacher, or people in the Church.  It's not the Bible although I fully believe and trust that God speaks to me, personally, and gives me peace and instruction through His Words in the Bible.  I fully Believe that God is real and dwells in a Spiritual Realm apart from the Physical.  I fully believe that God gave physical proof of His existence, He did so In and through Jesus Christ for those that require physical proof. I fully believe that each of us will surely face a future judgment as surely as we will face future physical death unless there is a Rapture and we are in it.  Areas that I am still studying and questioning God is what happens to people after Death.  Will punishment be that the spirit dies meaning some will experience physical death and spiritual death where it all ends and the person just misses out on an eternal life without the stresses of this physical life.  Does it mean that some will face a torment type punishment and if so what determines if they deserve that?  There are questions I cannot answer or don't feel comfortable making dogmatic statements about.  There are questions I believe only God knows the answer to but I am certain that Death will come and after that will come the answers sufficient enough for all.

Last edited by gbrk
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Many Christians claim to have "experiences" or Spiritual encounters with God or God's Holy Spirit and none can be physically analyzed by scientific methods.  Scientific methods cannot tell us what our dreams are either yet they are very personal and real but that also is no "proof" of God.  Sufficient Proof or evidence is relative and true to each person that receives it or experiences it. 

 

Who knows how many times in a persons life that they have opportunities to meet/experience God or why.  If one accepts Creation or Intelligent Design then many can legitimately ask the question why are we (personally) here and for what purpose is our creation?  Essentially most all the answers are matters and issues of faith on each person's part.  If you believe and accept Evolution then there is no significance to human life or being human, nothing special about it for we are all products of an accident under just the right conditions.  As for our human lives and what we remember from our childhood or why we remember certain things I cannot explain but some have more vivid memories than others.

 

One reason I began to believe in something other than just what I could see before me and something that I could reach out and touch was something that happened to me as a child around 6 years old and yes I can remember it very vividly and it's no illusion, dream, or delusion.  I was with my father who collected newspapers to recycle or trade in for money (by the pound or weight) and once our car was weighed, with the papers, we proceeded to the location we were told to unload them.  This was a paper facility, in Chattanooga, that collected and bundled scrap paper to send off for processing in bails that was approximately 4 foot cubed in shape and stacked two or three high.  While my father was unloading our trunk of newspapers I was doing what any 6 year old child would do .. running around looking at all the papers on the ground and the magazine covers and just playing around.  One of the things that happened to be among the newspapers and magazines were computer programming cards .. the ones with the punched holes in them (this was before computers as we know them) and there was several of them.  While my father was waste deep in the trunk I was going about my playing when i noticed one of those punch cards sparkle, in fact a bright sparkling light flashing that caught my eye and drew my sole attention to it.  I actually felt like I was pushed toward the card as well as being drawn by the light.  As soon, I mean fraction of seconds, that I moved to to pick up the card one of those 4 ft cube bundles fell directly over and onto the place I was standing one second before.  It hit with such a thump that my father immediate raised up from the trunk, saw what happened and grabbed me up squeezing me so tight that I can remember it today.  I told him about the shiny punch card and even picked it up but there was nothing reflective on the card nor was there any reflective material on the ground.  Okay I wasn't a Christian, yes my dad was, but I can still today know and realize that I was pushed toward that shiny sparkling punch card.  The 4 ft Cube that fell down grazing my arm as it fell and hit with a thump was attempted to be moved by my father who could not raise it up due to it's weight.  As any child I didn't realize then the gravity of the situation nor how close I came to well not being there and having my father lose his only child.  Today I still look back and wonder if it was an angel or some supernatural force at play but one thing is for sure, at least to me, It wasn't nothing and it wasn't chance.  Accident or chance happening you may say but for me I'll never be convinced otherwise.  Does it prove God?  NO.  Does it prove to me that there is something other than what I can touch and see?  Yes, for me it does.  That was one experience.

 

============================================================

 

OK. Like I said. Only "miracle-with-a-ghostie."  I knew it was gonna be something like that.

 

Ever see the movie "Final Destination?"

Lemme tell ya a lil' story about a guy who's entire life has been that movie-who's life has been pretty much a repeat of the event you describe over and over again.

 

This guy always lived life on the edge-just barely missing death at nearly every turn.

 

I remember this guy as a kid who used to play by himself a lot out in the woods and in and around caves. One cave in particular that he liked to hang out in had a portal that had a huge rock ledge hanging over it. He used to spend lots of time in that cave exploring and playing soldier with his buddies.

  One day as he was walking towards the mouth of that cave-he got distracted by something. Might have been an animal nearby-it's hard to recall.

 It had been raining hard the whole week previously and the ground was really wet and there was water drizzling from around the ledge.

Anyway, just before walking under the ledge, the distraction made him step aside to see what it was-That very second the ledge cracked and collapsed, bringing down a goodly chunk of the hill above it, completely sealing the mouth of the cave.

  He never did find what distracted him.

 

Another time this guy was helping a friend work on his dump truck which was propped up on a 6-ton bottle jack stacked with spacers.  I remember specifically that he was on a creeper just forward of the left rear dual wheels replacing a broken spring shackle. Nothing was lining up correctly and the bolt holes were being a bizzatch.

  The phone on the wall rang and he called to his buddy to get it but his buddy was outside havin' a smoke and didn't hear him, so he got up off the creeper and answered the phone and as he was talking to the guy that dialed a wrong number-he watched in amazement as the truck rolled off the jack, crushing the creeper he was on under the duallies before stopping against the back wall of the shop.

 

April 4, 1987-This guy had decided to ride to western NY to visit his sister. Normally he would've taken I-90W from Albany to Buffalo, but this time he decided to ride the scenic route up 17K from Binghamton to Syracuse through the Catskills and pick up the 90 there.

  The morning of the 5th, the westbound Schoharie Creek bridge collapsed with vehicles on it on or about the time he would've been crossing it had he just taken the 90 instead of the scenic detour.

 

By now I'm sure it's apparent that the guy I'm talking about is me.

 

I just happened to be in the right places at the right times.

 

My buddy with the truck got killed in a driveby shooting some years later. Coupla mooks with a MAC-10 sprayed a sidewalk.  He was collateral damage, apparently. Not the intended target

 

He was a good guy. A devout believer.

 

Where the hell was HIS angel?

 

 


 

Last edited by Road Puppy

Thank you GBRK, for your comments.

 

Invic, enjoy the read.

 

RP,

My family did not teach me to believe. We didn't even go to church after about age 10.

 

Jenn, as for God creating evil,

The Christian definition of evil is anything done by one of God's spirit beings (humans or angels) against Him (or His created beings). As such, God is never responsible for evil - only His created spirit beings. Atheists say that since only God can create, therefore He must have created evil. However, at this point the atheist has redefined the meaning of create. Evil was not created. Evil is manifested (committed) by free-will beings.

 

  Why do bad things happen to good people?  I don't know, nor do i know why good things happen to bad people. And by the terms, good or bad, i am referring to an individual, not whether they are religious or not.

 

Anyway, I thought it was a good breakdown of all the atheist points of attack.

Last edited by b50m

I think his angel was you. However, if you wish to call it luck, by all means do so.

 

 

I just happened to be in the right places at the right times.

My buddy with the truck got killed in a driveby shooting some years later. Coupla mooks with a MAC-10 sprayed a sidewalk.  He was collateral damage, apparently. Not the intended target

He was a good guy. A devout believer.

Where the hell was HIS angel?

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I can't prove the non- existence of god. Nobody can.

You can't prove his existence.

 

I don't believe in god's existence because I have never seen any evidence of it.

I'm pretty sure you believe in god because you were taught to and eventually justified the belief by wanting to, just like the people who taught you to believe did.

 


================

Pup, from my observation I think you would fit more into society here as a believer. You really seem like a down to earth unpretentious person that stumbled on to the wrong crowd on this forum. Find yourself a COC somewhere and try it out . I guarantee no one will ask you for money or act like they have been kicked by a mule. Anybody else is free to give you the same invitation.

 

Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I can't prove the non- existence of god. Nobody can.

You can't prove his existence.

 

I don't believe in god's existence because I have never seen any evidence of it.

I'm pretty sure you believe in god because you were taught to and eventually justified the belief by wanting to, just like the people who taught you to believe did.

 


================

Pup, from my observation I think you would fit more into society here as a believer. You really seem like a down to earth unpretentious person that stumbled on to the wrong crowd on this forum. Find yourself a COC somewhere and try it out . I guarantee no one will ask you for money or act like they have been kicked by a mule. Anybody else is free to give you the same invitation.

 

_____________________________________________________

 

Well I appreciate the gesture, but I just can't play pretend. 

 

Prolly just as well cause I march to ma own beat anyways.

 

I stopped at the Stutts Road COC once on my way around the county on the bike once while there was a meeting in progress (or just letting out, I disremember which) and most of the folks looked at me mighty funny as I was adjusting the rear shock pressure to soften my ride some.

I reckon I don't quite fit the mold around here and furthermore-I prolly ain't gonna. 

 

If it don't rock, I don't roll.

 

 

Heh. I didn't stumble on the wrong crowd.   I just showed up and they stumbled on me. 

 

RP,  I didn't see the movie you mentioned so I cannot comment adequately but I believe it to be the one where certain people that were almost killed eventually had their fate track them down and happen in the end.  Maybe I have the wrong film in mind.

 

Either way thanks for relating the events from your life.  I am fully aware that anyone can write away what I experienced both as a child and then as a Christian in my 20's  but the events are sufficient for me and that's really all that counts.  I can testify about it all I want but the only one that it really has anything important to is my own self.  As for each individual I have said, and continue to say, that each person makes decisions based upon their own criteria and experiences and they alone determine what is sufficient for themselves.  Everyone's stories are always subject to doubt and speculation so I am not the least offended if someone thinks it to be happenstance or just luck.  I alone know the actual experience, felt the nudge from someone not there, saw the light/sparkling from paper without any metal and with no metal or tin around.  That was not a religious experience that was an experience that I still cannot account for and the reason is I truly believe and always will that something outside the physical realm/world intervened in my life to protect it.

 

One more, personal, revelation.  It has been mentioned about prayer before and how some prayers are unanswered when they are really desperately needed.  My father was and remains the best moral man I have ever known.  Although he was a Christian I would not call him overtly religious as he wasn't in Church everytime the door opened but he did help out people, in secret, and I never heard a curse word or a bad/negative word about another person from his lips until later in his life.  My father was truly an inspiration to me and I will always miss the years I never got to spend with him.  We moved out of town, for my job, and while I was out of town my father developed Alzheimers or it was diagnosed as such.  He worked in a paint/enamel shop for a lot of his life but there was no connection made.  I can assure you I, as well as my mom who was also a devout Christian made many prayers to God for many related things and they were not answered in the way we desired either.  In our lives we have had some prayers answered and other times not.  Can they be accounted as accidents by some?  Of course they can.  Through it all I still maintain absolute, unshakable, belief that God is in control and exist and that God's Holy Spirit resides within my body with my inner spirit/soul ministering to me in ways only I can know and realize.    Prayers are sometimes answered in the way we want and sometimes not but I don't base my faith on prayers one way or the other. 

 

Everything I said can be discounted or explained away by whoever hears it and I realize that.  I though find it, along with much not related, sufficient to confirm that God is not only alive and well but ministers actively to His Saints today.  I am by no means the person I should be or should be in relation to what Christ was and cannot approach being the man that my father was.  I am a flawed but forgiven individual grateful to my Redeemer and Lord God for sticking with me and giving me the opportunity at Salvation.  As for who or what protected me, as a child of 6, I can't say and dI don't know but I do know with 100% certain that it was no accident or mistake and that is certain.

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

I can't prove the non- existence of god. Nobody can.

You can't prove his existence.

 

I don't believe in god's existence because I have never seen any evidence of it.

I'm pretty sure you believe in god because you were taught to and eventually justified the belief by wanting to, just like the people who taught you to believe did.

 


================

Pup, from my observation I think you would fit more into society here as a believer. You really seem like a down to earth unpretentious person that stumbled on to the wrong crowd on this forum. Find yourself a COC somewhere and try it out . I guarantee no one will ask you for money or act like they have been kicked by a mule. Anybody else is free to give you the same invitation.

 

_____________________________________________________

 

Well I appreciate the gesture, but I just can't play pretend. 

 

Prolly just as well cause I march to ma own beat anyways.

 

I stopped at the Stutts Road COC once on my way around the county on the bike once while there was a meeting in progress (or just letting out, I disremember which) and most of the folks looked at me mighty funny as I was adjusting the rear shock pressure to soften my ride some.

I reckon I don't quite fit the mold around here and furthermore-I prolly ain't gonna. 

 

If it don't rock, I don't roll.

 

 

Heh. I didn't stumble on the wrong crowd.   I just showed up and they stumbled on me. 

 

================

lol pup, I can see that.

As for physical proof of God is that not what Jesus Christ was?  Christ may not have come during our lives and times but He did come and live and dwell among man in a physical touchable body and claimed to be God's Son/ God incarnate.  It is for each human to decide just how valid Christ statement all those years ago was.  That same message is taught today by Christians and teachers and ordinary Christians throughout the world.  It's not about a deity that died or remains dead but about a deity that is alive and remains alive and ministers unto His people today.  

 

Yes I contend there is physical proof but whether that is acceptable is what remains in question.  A question that Christians claim is essential to salvation and each person's future state and fate.  Just who was and IS Jesus Christ?  As for those who want more individualized proof, to them alone and personally, then don't expect Christ to come and walk the earth again and die for sins again for once was enough.  Man/Woman's personal proof or interaction with God comes through the Prompting and Conviction of , and by, the Holy Spirit of God.  So by way of Christ Jesus I do suggest that there is physical proof of God but whether that is sufficient is determined by each individual for each individual makes their own decisions effecting their own selves.

Seriously Jimi you are in another world if you seriously believe that dog hunts.  There is far enough circumstantial evidence that there was a man named Jesus Christ who was actually crucified.  As for who he was, being raised from the dead, being God's son all that is personal belief.  To say Christ never existed though is just outright denial.  I would seriously think you would not want to discredit yourself by making such a statement.   

 

They ask Mr. Dawkins what would you say to God if you died and found out you were wrong to which I believe he answered something like Why did you Hide so well or make yourself so hard to find.  I suppose your statement would be "Man you aren't here".  I accept that you don't believe God or that Christ was God but to set there and say Christ never existed.  Hey go with it if you want maybe it will get you somewhere.

 

Originally Posted by gbrk:

Many Christians claim to have "experiences" or Spiritual encounters with God or God's Holy Spirit and none can be physically analyzed by scientific methods. CONVENIENT?Scientific methods cannot tell us what our dreams are either UH ACTUALLY SCIENCE CAN TELL US THE BASICS OF WHAT A PERSON IS ACTUALLY DREAMING ABOUT yet they are very personal and real but that also is no "proof" of God. BRAIN STATES ARE VERY REAL, BUT DREAMS ARE NOT REALLY HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF THE MIND. DREAMS ARE NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING BUT OF THE EXISTENCE DREAMS. YOU SOUND VERY CONFUSED ABOUT ALL OF THIS. Sufficient Proof or evidence is relative and true to each person that receives it or experiences it. IN OTHER WORDS THE STANDARD IS IF SOMEONE WANTS TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THEN IT'S TRUE AND NO ONE CAN PROVE THEY'RE WRONG AND CRAZY BECAUSE IT'S HAPPENING BETWEEN THEIR EARS. GOT IT.

Originally Posted by Gnu:
Originally Posted by gbrk:

Many Christians claim to have "experiences" or Spiritual encounters with God or God's Holy Spirit and none can be physically analyzed by scientific methods. CONVENIENT?Scientific methods cannot tell us what our dreams are either UH ACTUALLY SCIENCE CAN TELL US THE BASICS OF WHAT A PERSON IS ACTUALLY DREAMING ABOUT yet they are very personal and real but that also is no "proof" of God. BRAIN STATES ARE VERY REAL, BUT DREAMS ARE NOT REALLY HAPPENING OUTSIDE OF THE MIND. DREAMS ARE NOT PROOF OF ANYTHING BUT OF THE EXISTENCE DREAMS. YOU SOUND VERY CONFUSED ABOUT ALL OF THIS. Sufficient Proof or evidence is relative and true to each person that receives it or experiences it. IN OTHER WORDS THE STANDARD IS IF SOMEONE WANTS TO BELIEVE IN SOMETHING THEN IT'S TRUE AND NO ONE CAN PROVE THEY'RE WRONG AND CRAZY BECAUSE IT'S HAPPENING BETWEEN THEIR EARS. GOT IT.

First of all do you capitalize your response on purpose?  Are you shouting or is it just convenient to leave your Caps lock on.  As for the statement, you made, about dreams I've never heard of such so why don't you present your data on that to reinforce your statement?  Whether dreams, Love, Hate, anger, fright, or memories we all know they exist but scientifically we cannot prove it.  I don't buy that scientific test can in anyway tell what a person is dreaming or if they Love a person or what memory they are thinking about yet those emotions are very real just not physical and you can't touch it.  You can potentially see 2nd hand results of them, maybe a certain part of the brain gives a response but content is beyond science's ability so I challenge that statement that science can prove content.

 

I'm not confused about it either the point is this.  God is a Spirit dwelling in the Spiritual realm a realm that is claimed doesn't exist.  Not only that but the claim is so dogmatic that there is NO possibility it exist.  The same people that might say there is no possibility that a Spiritual Realm exist apart from the Physical will potentially put their faith in a parallel universe or theorize what's in a Black Hole or through a Black Hole or even what the inner core of our own Earth consist of when they really know absolutely nothing about it.  So if it is theoretically possible for a parallel Universe to exist or something through a Black Hole then why is there such absolute insistence against a Realm apart from what science can test or sample? 

 

The last statement about evidence being relative and true to each person is just that.  What is sufficient evidence for one person isn't for another and visa versa.  What I or other Christians view as sufficient evidence for God is rejected by Atheist or non-believers and disregarded as delusion even though they have no potential way to realize it or experience that very thing so they just dismiss it.  What I'm talking about is the inner presence of God's Holy Spirit. 


 

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
B50m's ignorance is showing again. Occam's razor actually works against a belief in your imaginary friend. When I said that only an idiot would ask the question in this topic, I was correct.

Didn't bother to go read the article did ya?  It's OK,  jimi, I know it's hard to actually read something longer than 5 words put together.

Originally Posted by b50m:

Atheists have Proven God Does Not Exist. Right?
by Rich Deem

 

 

B50, 

This is called a straw man argument.

 

The theist author posits form the very beginning that we have "proven" that god does not exist.  That is the straw man. That is not even remotely true.  Then the author easily tears down that straw argument using logic.

It was an illogical sstatement to begin with!  In logic, you cannot disprove a negative.  That means you cannot disprove something that has not yet been proven to even exist.


The goal of atheism as I see it is not to "disprove" the existence of God which is impossible.  God is omnipotent.  Once you "disprove" the problem of evil as this author suggests, there are an infinate number of other places God can hide in. 

Atheists are not the ones making the claim.  Atheism is defined as a REJECTION of the claims of theists.  We can only ask for proof of your claim.  Once provided, we will shut up.

 Now, I do believe there are argument against the existence of god that are very powerful.  Supreme lack of evidence.  The problem of evil.  The physical laws that must be broken.  The irrationality of some unknown plane of existence that defies all known laws of physics and so on.  I don't consider any of these as "proof" of non existence.  I consider them responses to illogical claims.

Unoi, as usual you are trying to dispute someone else’s belief in GOD in your INSUFFICIENT FRAMEWORK of knowledge. This straw man claim you repeatedly use is getting on my nerve and I have no other choice but to point out the fact that most of your arguments are residue of semantics. Your lack of God language learned from mans spiritual side is not at your command and your blatherings are nothing but unpleasant noise to the educated Christians.

Originally Posted by b50m:
Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
B50m's ignorance is showing again. Occam's razor actually works against a belief in your imaginary friend. When I said that only an idiot would ask the question in this topic, I was correct.

Didn't bother to go read the article did ya?  It's OK,  jimi, I know it's hard to actually read something longer than 5 words put together.

Not the first or time or the last,

I’m sure Jimbo has commented and not read the post or reference he's replying to. On the Political Forum he commented on Steve Wynn saying,

“What else would you expect from a republican CEO. Big surprise.

If you could reason with religious people or conservatives, there wouldn't be any religious people or conservatives."

Well Steve Wynn is a Nevadan Democrat that voted for Harry in your Pocket Read.

Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:
My statements about Jesus are not opinion. There is zero written, contemporary (to Jesus) evidence that he existed.

There seems to be no evidence from your post that you would accept anything valid in the first place so it would be a waste of time for anyone to attempt to give you multiple references and URLs.  You would just find some way to discount it so would be a waste of time.  You wish to keep on believing what you do have at it.

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