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Bill Gray-

 

You seem to have a pattern of picking “low hanging fruit,” namely those posts that you think you can easily rebut.  I have put up some high-hanging fruit lately that I wish you would deign to respond to.  In both cases the subject is “once saved-always saved,” a favorite doctrine of Calvinists and of cafeteria Calvinists such as yourself.

 

Here for you is some high-hanging fruit, reproduced for your convenience from other posts.

 

High-hanging Fruit No. 1:

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith.” (I Tim. 4: 1) How, pray tell, can one depart from the faith without having  once been in the faith? Paul is here affirming that there will be a day when some who were in the faith will depart from it.   His statement makes no sense if it is impossible to depart from the faith. Keep your Calvinist theologians, Bill--I'll stick with what the Holy Spirit expressly says about departing from the faith.

 

I suspect that there is, somewhere, a desperate and convoluted attempt by the OSAS advocates to say that "depart from the faith" means something other than "depart from the faith." I suspect that such an "explanation" will be pretty much the same kind of extreme stretch used by OSAS proponents to "explain" that other scriptures plainly teaching the very real possibility of apostasy do not really mean what they seem to mean.  But I anxiously await your reply, Bill--or that of Charles Stanley or others who struggle so hard to wrest the OSAS doctrine from scriptures that simply do not support it and to nay-say the plain teaching of scriptures that clearly teach contrary to it..

 

High-hanging Fruit No. 2:

 

The more widely one reads in the New Testament, the more one encounters passages that powerfully dispute the widely-held, though heretical, doctrine of "once-saved--always saved"

I have already, within this forum, served up for consideration by OSAS Bill and other cafeteria Calvinists the very uncomfortable (for him and them) passage of Hebrews 3:12, which warns "brethren" (hence Christians," or as Bill prefers, "true believers") to "take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart in departing from the living God." I have pointed out that it is not possible to depart from that which one was never a part of, but that the apostolic writer here clearly contemplates the possibility of "brethren" departing from God and hence reverting to a lost state.  No answer yet from OSAS Bill other than some irrelevant deflection, avoiding the central question.

 

Reading in the book of I Thessalonians yesterday, I came across another passage that establishes, for those who care anything about sensible interpretation and application of scripture, that there is indeed the possibility for someone who was once saved to later become lost again.

 

I refer to two passages, the first being I Thess. 1:3 &4, where the apostle Paul, writing fromAthens, characterizes his recollection of the Thessalonian brethren thusly:

 

(3)“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, (4) knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.”

 

Can there be any doubt but that Paul, in his recollection of the state in which he remembered these “brethren” considered them as having been saved people?  Of course not.

But later in this same letter, Paul describes his great anxiety to the effect that the same Thessalonians, having faced tribulation, might have succumbed to temptation to the extent that “...our labor might be in vain.” Here is what he wrote (I Thess. 3: 4 & 5:

4”For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.”

 

Quite clearly, Paul was deeply troubled and anxious about the spiritual state of his converts at Thessalonica.  He “could no longer endure” not to know whether these persecuted “brethren” remained grounded in the faith or whether, alternatively, his labor in bringing them to Christ “might be in vain”.

 

There is no honest, rational, way to read and interpret this passage without coming to the obvious conclusion, namely that it was indeed possible for these “brethren” to have lost their faith under the stress of persecution (“tribulation").  If that were not the case, then how could Paul have been so worried and troubled that he “could no longer endure it” and thus dispatched Timothy to investigate on his behalf (see 3:2) so as "...to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain"?

 

Or was Paul just a chronic worry wart--troubled about something that was not worth worrying about because it could not possibly have occurred?

 

See where this OSAS madness leads!>>>

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Hi Head,

While I realize you are upset because I do not worship and support unions as you do; can we lay that hidden agenda aside for a while?

Now, to your questions about "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved" -- I have written about that and answered the same questions over and over again -- until I am blue in the face.  So, to save a lot of time and space, let me just give you the links to some of my recent posts concerning that issue.  If you will read these, you WILL find the answers to the questions you and other liberals and legalists keep asking.

In some way, you remind me of when my children were young and we would travel.  "Are we there yet?  Are we there yet?  Are we there yet?"  Or, the old time favorites, "Why is the sky blue?"  I give an answer and then, "But, why?"

Although this train of thought does bring back some pleasant memories.  In 1959, we moved to the Virginia/Washington DC area -- and, in 1963, we moved back to California.  Going across, I took the southern route and coming back, I took the northern route, just to see more of America.  As we were driving through Iowa it was amazing to see mile after mile, solid rows of corn fields, with stalks that seemed to be eight foot tall.  It was a beautiful sight -- miles of solid green corn stalk walls beside the highway.

One evening we were driving and the moon was full.  As we were driving, my middle daughter was sitting in the front seat with us while her sisters slept in the back of our station wagon.  She was intently watching the moon -- and was amazed that at one time the moon was hanging beautifully on the right side of the road -- and a minute later, the moon had moved to the left side of the road.  She was fascinated!  What she had not noticed was that the road was curving -- and each time it curved the moon appeared to move.  I love seeing children express their natural curiosity and being amazed at nature.

But, the persistent questions of adults -- on subjects which have been explained over and over -- gets to be a pain.  So, please read these recent articles and you will find your answers.  That is, if you are really interested in answers and are not just busting my chops because I don't like unions.


What Do Theologians Say About "Eternal Security"?

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/308664320764261802

Can You KNOW You're Going to Heaven?

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/308523583273145775

Calvinism, Arminianism, And Me!

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/304160276892878355

Eternal Security In Christ -- Yes, Or No?

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/303878801864988160

 

My Friend, I pray that we have lay this dead horse to rest.  Yes, the Bible does indeed teach, and Jesus Christ promises, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47).

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

 

John 6-47 - Gods Covenant Rainbow

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quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

....John 6: 47-48 / 6:51

 

47 Amen, amen, I say unto you: He that believes in me has everlasting life.  48 I am the bread of life.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.  If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world."

Hi Vic,

 

Great thought!  Once Jesus Christ promised that, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- He continues by comparing the physical Manna God sent from heaven to physically feed the Israelites during their forty years wandering in the wilderness -- to the spiritual food God sent from heaven, Jesus Christ, to spiritually feed all who will, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive His free gift of eternal life.

 

Yes, Jesus Christ is indeed the "spiritual food" -- the "spiritual nourishment" which all believers need to sustain us in this mortal life.  God gave us the Living Word, Jesus Christ -- and He gave us the Written Word, the Bible -- to be our "spiritual food" as we live in this corrupt world.

 

As we follow Christ and eat of God's Written Word, the Bible -- we can know that we are walking with God.

 

Thank you, my Friend, for reminding us of His amazing love.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

2 Timothy 2-15

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Originally Posted by vplee123:
No you most certainly have not explained this till your " blue in the face"- Do you remember a thread in which I posted several scriptures that refuted OSAS- you dodged, squirmed, hurled insults and ignored the scripture. Pattern repeating....


___

Bill seems to think that by referring to posts where he has NOT proven his case he can avoid addressing specific challenges to the basic OSAS thesis that he clings to.  I cited two specific scriptural passages that powerfully refute the OSAS doctrine. All Bill needs to do to gain a little credibility is to address those specific passages and to show, if he can, how I have wrongly applied them to the question.  If he is so confident of his salvation and so confident that it is consistent with the word of God, he should not crawfish away from addressing those scriptures.

 

Recent pictures of Bill Gray at work responding to difficult questions:

 

Crawfish photo Crawfish.gif         the fighting crawfish photo Crawfish.gif

Right- anyone can recite their beliefs, cherry pick some scripture to back them up and preach it as Gospel. But the challenge is being able to DEFEND your beliefs when presented with conflicting scripture. Just like we learn in elementary school- any hypothesis has to be proven. And when we get older- write a thesis ? Defend it!!! If one can't do that, it's just a fail.

Well, my dear Friends,

 

It is there in those four posts -- if you would bother to read them.  Otherwise, just keep spitting into the wind.

 

You can either accept the truth or you can keep closing your eyes and screaming, "I don't see!  I don't see!"  If a person will not open his/her spiritual eyes -- that person will always be spiritually blind.

 

There it is -- take it or leave it.   I KNOW that I have eternal life.  If the two of you want to keep chasing your tails -- one afraid he will lose his salvation if he spits on the ground -- and the other dare not claim to have eternal life because her leader does not know if he is saved or not.   Good luck and God bless.

 

I will be in heaven.  And, even though you are not sure, I believe I will see both of you there.  But, you just keep fretting over it -- and I will just relax in my eternal security.   Ah, nothing like a cozy divine security blanket!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Bless My Friend Mouse

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Ok if you are so confident than please go back to my prior thread and defend your position. You know the one, "a case against sola scriptura" Address each scripture, one by one, and tell us how you can reconcile that to OSAS. Lets all await his response. Can you defend your doctrine? With my specific cited examples? Or can you not!? If you can, perhaps I will change my position. Enlighten me.

Hi VP,

 

Go back and really read the four articles I have posted above.  You will find they will answer your questions.   Of course, if you will not take the time to truly read and understand them, then we will have no common ground for a discussion.  We do not have to agree on everything; but, we do need to know what the other has written.  You cannot do that without reading my articles.  

 

The answers are there, even if you disagree with them.  But, I believe you will find my answers are Biblically correct if one views the Bible, all 66 books, as the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God. 

 

If you do not, then we have a problem -- which cannot be solved; for then you would be looking at the Bible through liberal theology glasses.  And, God did not create the Bible to be view in that manner.  As I wrote earlier, "God said what He meant, and He meant what He said."   Nothing liberal or mythological about it.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi VP,

 

Go back and really read the four articles I have posted above.  You will find they will answer your questions.   Of course, if you will not take the time to truly read and understand them, then we will have no common ground for a discussion.  We do not have to agree on everything; but, we do need to know what the other has written.  You cannot do that without reading my articles.  

 

The answers are there, even if you disagree with them.  But, I believe you will find my answers are Biblically correct if one views the Bible, all 66 books, as the inspired, inerrant, literal Written Word of God. 

 

If you do not, then we have a problem -- which cannot be solved; for then you would be looking at the Bible through liberal theology glasses.  And, God did not create the Bible to be view in that manner.  As I wrote earlier, "God said what He meant, and He meant what He said."   Nothing liberal or mythological about it.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

+++++++

Your famous four posts do not address the powerful teaching I described above from  I Thess. 1:3 &4, Hebrews 3:1 and 3:12, and  I Timothy 4:1, where the scriptures plainly teach that it is indeed possible for a person who is saved to later become lost.   There is no other rational way to interpret these passages and that apparently is the reason you are dodging them. 

 

It is evident from your evasive posts that you are  uncomfortable with these passages.  I suspect you have conferred with some of your fellow OSASers in the Calvary Chapel cult and have not gotten enough substance from them to credibly defend OSAS against the plain teaching of these powerful passages. Better, then, to remain silent than to put up some indefensible reply.  We have seen that before from you, Bill.

I see Bill is at it again. It is too bad he is so wrapped up in self-worship that he doesn't have the strength of mind to read scripture for what it IS instead of what he WISHES it was. I say too bad because as much as I dislike the man, I think it is a shame that ANYONE could condemn himself for the sake of his ego. He is holding on to, "He who believes has eternal life", when the emphasis should be placed on a different word. It should be, "He who believes has eternal life". And he should be aware of exactly what belief entails. (Hint: it means loving GOD more than one lives ONESELF.)

 

It's his disorder speaking. We should all pity the man, but if anyone here thinks he will ever see the light, I fear they are mistaken.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

How long will it take our resident Devil worshipper to declare this topic a spitting contest & run, start another topic about how stupid everyone on this forum is? (except his brown nosers)

__________

LOL.  Too late, already done.  Exact words "spitting in the wind".  Refusal to answer specific rebuttals.  But at least he has embraced a form of the numbering system by pointing us to the four links that make up his failed belief system.  If he will just continue with that, things will be much better around here.

Please honor this request y’all: the term describing ****ulation of bodily substance from the mouth causes me to ponder up crude, vulgar and raw apparitions of the person using the term constantly;   affected,  the decorum expected of persons using it;  to dwell in an unprocessed condition; dirtiness in character, appearance and unshaven come to mind. Don't use it.

Originally Posted by Quaildog:

Please honor this request y’all: the term describing ****ulation of bodily substance from the mouth causes me to ponder up crude, vulgar and raw apparitions of the person using the term constantly;   affected,  the decorum expected of persons using it;  to dwell in an unprocessed condition; dirtiness in character, appearance and unshaven come to mind. Don't use it.

___

It bothers me too.  Every time I hear that usage, I could just expectorate!

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by INVICTUS:

....John 6: 47-48 / 6:51

 

47 Amen, amen, I say unto you: He that believes in me has everlasting life.  48 I am the bread of life.  51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven.  If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world."

Hi Vic,

 

Great thought!  Once Jesus Christ promised that, "He who believes HAS eternal life" (John 6:47) -- He continues by comparing the physical Manna God sent from heaven to physically feed the Israelites during their forty years wandering in the wilderness -- to the spiritual food God sent from heaven, Jesus Christ, to spiritually feed all who will, by grace, through faith -- believe and receive His free gift of eternal life.

 

Yes, Jesus Christ is indeed the "spiritual food" -- the "spiritual nourishment" which all believers need to sustain us in this mortal life.  God gave us the Living Word, Jesus Christ -- and He gave us the Written Word, the Bible -- to be our "spiritual food" as we live in this corrupt world.

 


So what you're saying is, the bible doesn't literally mean food, just like it doesn't literally mean seven days?

 
Originally Posted by Quaildog:

Please honor this request y’all: the term describing ****ulation of bodily substance from the mouth causes me to ponder up crude, vulgar and raw apparitions of the person using the term constantly;   affected,  the decorum expected of persons using it;  to dwell in an unprocessed condition; dirtiness in character, appearance and unshaven come to mind. Don't use it

___

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:

It bothers me too.  Every time I hear that usage, I could just expectorate!

_______

Ewww.......Expectorate? And exactly what usage would that be?

 

 

Originally Posted by vplee123:
Scratching head...what are you talking about? What word?

___

Not all that clear to me either, v, but my best guess is that the offending word is "spit."  See CrustyMac's post immediately above Quaildog's complaint.  But I have never heard of "spitulation,." the usage that Quaildog seems to be considering.

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:
Originally Posted by vplee123:
Scratching head...what are you talking about? What word?

___

Not all that clear to me either, v, but my best guess is that the offending word is "spit."  See CrustyMac's post immediately above Quaildog's complaint.  But I have never heard of "spitulation,." the usage that Quaildog seems to be considering.

bill is always using the term spitting. e j a c u was the other half of "lation"

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
 
Originally Posted by Quaildog:

Please honor this request y’all: the term describing ****ulation of bodily substance from the mouth causes me to ponder up crude, vulgar and raw apparitions of the person using the term constantly;   affected,  the decorum expected of persons using it;  to dwell in an unprocessed condition; dirtiness in character, appearance and unshaven come to mind. Don't use it

___

Originally Posted by upsidedehead:

It bothers me too.  Every time I hear that usage, I could just expectorate!

_______

Ewww.......Expectorate? And exactly what usage would that be?

 

___

Fancy word for SPIT, just like osculate is fancy word for kiss and masticate is fancy word for chew. There is no simple word for which a more complex word can not be found. I don't have time to provide a complete discussion of this matter; thus I am merely adumbrating here.

 

 

i chose this thread from the interesting topic and number of those responding....

returning after a bout with illness, then attendance at an amazing God-conference, i see topics and posts are much the same...

being away has given me a breath of fresh air, and it has been quite refreshing! God has given me the desire to spend more time literally showing Jesus' love to the world around me, and less time at the computer. so when i'm not around here, i'll be at my Father's business

i encourage each of you to continue in the work He's called you to, and pray that all will come to understand His great love for you! i wish you His peace and favor in all things.

i'll be around now and then, hippiegirl<><

 

Hi O No,


You post, "I see Bill is at it again.  It is too bad he is so wrapped up in self-worship that he doesn't have the strength of mind to read scripture for what it IS instead of what he WISHES it was."


O No, my Friend, I am just curious about how YOU view the Bible.  In your opinion, is the Bible the Holy Spirit inspired, Holy Spirit inerrant, literal Written Word of God?


Or, is it a book of symbolisms, metaphors, myths, and nice stories which are intended to guide us in our Christian lives?


My Friend, which Bible do you study?


God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


Bill

 

Bible Inspired By God

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