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Celebrating Fourth of July Without God
Roy Speckhardt
Executive Director, American Humanist Association

Tea-Party presidential hopeful Michele Bachmann has yet to announce a running mate -- many hope that time will never come -- but it has become clear that Bachmann's platform boasts a crowd favorite by her side: God.

"Did God tell you He wanted you to run for the Minnesota State Senate, or something like that?" asked CBS News' Bob Schieffer on this week's edition of "Face the Nation."

"I prayed about that, as well," Bachmann said. "And that's really what that means. It means that I have a sense of assurance about the direction I think that God is speaking into my heart that I should go."

A staunch Christian, a Planned Parenthood detractor and an outspoken protestor of *** rights, Bachmann is selling herself as the people's choice, the chosen one, the all-American girl. (Tom Petty recently protested this sentiment, asking Bachmann to refrain from using the song in relation to her campaign.) Bachmann and the Tea Party may have deemed themselves the country's true patriots, but millions of religion-free Americans will honor their country this Fourth of July with dignity, respect, and goodness.

Instead of focusing on nationalistic fervor, humanists tend to take a broader view of inhabiting a world made up of one people. Some Americans assume humanists and atheists are unpatriotic, but with freethinkers spending more time trying to unite people across cultural and political boundaries,nothing could be further from the truth.

Humanists certainly value principles that our nation was founded on, which include freedom of -- and from -- religion. This also includes a commitment to equality, compassion, and the same willingness to challenge authority that helped America secede from the British. Humanists' moral patriotism is a challenge to another myth, that one that assumes people cannot be good without a belief in God.

Philosopher Paul Kurtz agrees that the goal of humanistic morality "is the enhancement of the good life: happiness and well-being for the widest number of individuals." Kurtz mentioned some years back that this goal is not limited to our humanist minority. "This point of view came into prominence [in Europe] during the Renaissance; it is expressed in the Declaration of Independence, and indeed in virtually every modern democratic system of ethics. People may dispute the meaning of happiness, but nonetheless most humanists say that the good life involves satisfying and pleasurable experiences, creative actualization, and human realization." Both religious and nonreligious people can share this goal. To reject it would be downright unpatriotic.

This may give some insight into why atheists, humanists and other freethinkers are so active during the Fourth of July. And this year it seems that nontheists are being more active than ever.

The American Humanist Association is sponsoring a Fourth of July call to humanists and other nontheists to "come out of the closet of non-belief" in an effort to educate and raise humanist awareness. The AHA mailed over 15,000 "Happy Human" pins to members in June to encourage them to proudly identify as a humanist to their friends, family, and co-workers. The "Happy Human" is a symbol recognized around the world that represents humanism--the idea that you can be good without a belief in a god.

American Atheists is also sponsoring July 4th aerial banner planes reading "Atheism is Patriotic" and "God-LESS America." Dave Silverman, President of American Atheists, said that the purpose of the banners is to "highlight the fact that atheists are everywhere, in every parade, on every beach, and in every state, city, and town." While the group was aiming to have planes fly with their message in all fifty states, about half unpatriotically declined American Atheists' request to exercise their free speech with this message.

Free-thinkers across the country are coming together to support the secular heritage of the holiday, including the Humanists of North Puget Sound, the Greater Worcester Humanists and the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Groups are having picnics, parties, and other celebrations to be part of the day's festivities.

Bachmann and the Tea Party may believe that they have the patriotic market cornered, but nontheists know this isn't the case. Today more than 15 percent of Americans identify themselves as nontheist; 35 million people who no longer feel attached to traditional, outdated religion. The Fourth of July presents ample opportunity for all nontheist Americans to "come out of the closet" and openly identify as such. As Silverman said, "what better time than Independence Day weekend to speak up peacefully and declare 'Yes, we're all Americans?'"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...of-jul_b_888878.html

---

It's impossible to speak with force in a muffled voice from the closet

Original Post

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It's mostly about using our Independence Day celebration as an occasion to combat the idea that atheism is unpatriotic. Recent polls show that this is a widely held idea among our fellow citizens.

 

"No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic." - George H. W. Bush, 1987

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

It's mostly about using our Independence Day celebration as an occasion to combat the idea that atheism is unpatriotic. Recent polls show that this is a widely held idea among our fellow citizens.

 

"No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic." - George H. W. Bush, 1987

 

 

A.R., you, of all people, should  know better than to rely on unfounded "facts". No "proof", etc.

Or, is that just a requirement reserved for "believers"?

 

 

The "Quote"...

No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God.… I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

  • Attributed by Robert I. Sherman, reporting in American Atheist about a public press conference Bush held at O'Hare Airport on 27 August 1987.[1]No other journalist confirmed that Bush made the remark.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush

 

 

There is only one source for the quote that I have ever found, which is Mr. Sherman, who at least does not seem to be the most re****ble source.

Since it is such a controversial quote, and was given at a press conference, it seems highly unlikely that no audio or video record of it exists, let alone no written accounts outside of Mr. Sherman's. IIRC Mr. Sherman explains this away by saying that only print media was there (because it was unscheduled) and that only he had the courage to publish the quote. None of that rings true to me.

I think this is a quote that get's bandied about because it reafirms what people want to belive but has no basis in reality.

I have never found a reference to the Elder Bush being asked about this quote by a source other than Mr. Sherman's office, or an associated group, and the form letters he received back are clearly not in reference to anything in particular.

 

http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=13314

 

FROM "THE RATIONAL RESPONSE SQUAD"...A place for activist atheists to unite

http://www.rationalresponders...._response_squad/8378

In response to this issue, I thought it would be important to include the following information. It is part of an email correspondence between myself and some other atheists about this issue.

The following was written by Janice Rael, who is the president of the Delaware Valley chapter of AU (dvau.org), and a personal friend.

---

In regards to the file uploaded today, the documents from the Bush
library in regards to the claim that Rob Sherman heard the elder Bush
say "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens,
nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God"?

No one knows but Rob Sherman and George H W Bush if this was really
said. Bush won't admit it, and Sherman has changed his story repeatedly.

 

"I used to be one of those people who repeated the Rob Sherman story
about the alleged Bush quote. Then I became deeply involved in the
inner circles of the freethought movement. When I sent a message to my
new group, referring to the Sherman story, I was immediately corrected
by people who have been heavily involved in these people who have been
involved in atheist activism for 20, 30, 40 years. They explained
things to me that I can't even repeat in public. Let's just say that I
was shown evidence which has caused me to believe that I was mistaken
for the past few years about the veracity of the alleged Bush quote."

 

"This quote is all over the internet. Sources that are otherwise
reliable, such as Positive Atheism and even The Secular Web restate
this alleged quotation with all the fervor of true believers. I did
the same, for over 4 years, and didn't stop until 2 months ago, when I
researched the story and surrounding circumstances in depth. The
results of my personal investigation led me to believe that I had no
reason to think that Bush really said these words.

I can't share all the details here, but I'm hoping that you can take
my word for it. I am concerned about the truth, and there's no way to prove that the elder Bush ever made the anti-atheist statement that is attributed to him. There is a story about it, but no evidence to support the story."

"I didn't say that the story was not true, I only said that I have no
evidence to prove that the story is true. Therefore, the story is
hearsay, until someone provides proof that the events occurred as
described.

Those who have followed Sherman's website closely might have noticed that certain details about the story have been changed or removed over time. For example, for several years, the name of a possible witness to the event was on the site. The alleged witness was said to be a CNN reporter named Greg Lefevre. When asked directly in 2003, Greg Lefevre denied hearing Bush say the words that were attributed to him. The reporter's name was eventually removed from the webpages that described the story.

Also, Sherman claimed on his site that the Bush Library withheld the
documents for two years. However, two other people, who I know,
contacted the Bush Library and received the documents immediately. It does not take 2 years for such a request to be fulfilled."

I read all of the faxed documents that came from the Bush library. 
They do not contain proof of anything other than American Atheists'
correspondence with the White House trying to get an apology for
something that one troubled man claimed he heard Bush say.

"The point is that we should not repeat the alleged Bush quote as
"evidence" of discrimination against atheists. And furthermore, when
we see other people repeating it, we should correct them, and tell
them that there is other evidence of anti-atheist sentiment that are
better, more reliable indicators of public feeling toward nonbelievers."

 

I'll fight for a person's right to speak so long as that person will, in return, fight to allow me to challenge their opinions and ridicule them as the content of their ideas merit.

 

I've gotten this on my Facebook news feed today 12 times.

 

<h6 class="uiStreamMessage" data-ft="{"type":1}">"Everybody, let's do this (and NBC - this one's for you!) ....We should flood Facebook with this...."I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under G O D, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all". RE-POST IF YOU THINK GOD, OUR COUNTRY, OUR FLAG, AND OUR MILITARY DESERVE RESPECT!!!!...... Let's just see how many AMERICANS will re-post"</h6>

 


BMC,

Thanks for bringing it that to my attention. I didn't get the memo on it and admit that I'd heard it referenced so many times that I was not critical about a possible dubious source.

 

Anyway, here is the American Atheists blog on the reason for the 4th of July campaign:

 

Atheism is Patriotic

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.. (Article 1 of the Bill of Rights)

The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded in the Christian Religion (Treaty of Tripoli, under order of George Washington and signed into law by John Adams, 1797)

I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (Commandment 1, Old Testament)
NOT in the Bible:  Democracy, Balance of Power (checks and balances), Trial by Jury, Habeas Corpus, Due Process, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of the Press,  Right to Education, Equality of the Genders,  and many other "American" characteristics -- How can anyone allege we are a Christian Nation if everything special about us is not IN the Bible?


I am a patriot, and I am proud of my patriotism (defined as consistent loyalty of country, including questioning our policies) . I support our troops (even if not always the foreign policy they're executing), cherish our rights, and respect our responsibilities, including the responsibility to protect our country from those who would betray our freedoms in support of their own agendas.

Despite what the Religious Right would like you to think, the founders specifically made the USA secular by design. They did not “forget” to place Jesus or God in the Constitution; rather they discussed it fervently and decided against it (a matter of record). They penned the Bill of Rights based on ethical values, not religious dogma. They enacted the Treaty of Tripoli, unanimously, which states specifically that the USA is not founded in Christianity. They clearly intended the government to stay out of the religion business.

Religion, however, being inherently weak in premise, needs the state to endorse it in order to thrive. It requires the legitimacy only the government can provide in order to survive, so it lobbies the politicians to push a revisionist history that directly conflicts with provable fact, all toward the end of state support in the form of endorsement, tax breaks, and special privileges. In support of their efforts to entwine themselves with the government, they quote-mine the founders, picking out pieces that fit their agenda and contending that what they can find is incontrovertible, even when the rest of the facts disagree. They treat founder quotes like they treat Bible quotes – to suit their intentions.

Our Constitution requires the government to protect freedom of religion -- this is the exact opposite of what religion wants. Religion does not want you free, it wants you obedient. Religion never OK’s diversity or dissent. Freedom of Religion is absent in the Old Testament, New Testament, and Koran, because freedom leads to discussion and criticism, which often leads to research, education, and often, atheism. Therefore, religion is by its very nature counter to the Constitution in a very fundamental way.

Since Patriotism is loyalty to one’s country, which is much more about its laws than its geography, religion is at its core unpatriotic to the American Way. Atheism, therefore, being the absence of religion and supportive (at least not unsupportive) of the Freedom of Religion, is patriotic by default, and perfectly so.

To be clear, atheism, being simply nothing more than the absence of religion, does not have an American component. You can, after all, be an atheist who hates America. The ironic thing is that even the freedom to hate America is American in and of itself. You are free to disagree all you like in this country, which is the exact opposite of what you’ll get from religion. This isn’t about atheists, it’s about atheism, and like it or not, it’s the only theological position that is directly aligned with American freedom.

In celebration of the rise of atheism in America, American Atheists is flying aerial banners across the country this 4th of July. Proudly stating “God-LESS America” and “Atheism is patriotic”, our banners will bring the breadth and patriotism of the movement into America’s conversation. Originally, we had planned on flying banners in all fifty states, representing the fact that atheism is the fastest growing segment in all fifty states, but we were unable to find pilots in many states willing to fly our banners, representing a clear reminder of the work we have to do.

As the movement expands throughout the next few years, we can expect more attempts by the religious Right to minimize our rights with false patriotism and cafeteria quotes. But if we were indeed a Christian Nation, we would never have a chance for success, because we would not have the right to fight. The fact that we exist is the best evidence that we’re correct, and that America is truly free. Defending this freedom is why we’re here in the first place.


United, we stand.

https://atheists.org/atheism/Patriotism

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

I've gotten this on my Facebook news feed today 12 times.

 

<h6 class="uiStreamMessage" data-ft="{"type":1}">"Everybody, let's do this (and NBC - this one's for you!) ....We should flood Facebook with this...."I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands: one nation under G O D, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all". RE-POST IF YOU THINK GOD, OUR COUNTRY, OUR FLAG, AND OUR MILITARY DESERVE RESPECT!!!!...... Let's just see how many AMERICANS will re-post"</h6>

lol

Originally Posted by b50m:

I never knew the Fourth of July needed God.

 

All these assumptions are so moronic. Who do they ask anyway? Only fundamentalist Christians?

 

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--"

 "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

 

The founding fathers sought the blessing and protection of God, and miraculously, a rag-tag army defeated the most powerful military force on earth. And did it again in 1814. And 1945. Just as the fleeing Israelites defeated Pharaoh's army.

 

I, like many other people, believe that God has blessed and protected America, but the country's recent falling away from him is costing us dearly, as it did the ancient Israelites. 

Last edited by Winston Niles Rumfoord
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

 

The founding fathers sought the blessing and protection of God, and miraculously, a rag-tag army defeated the most powerful military force on earth. And did it again in 1814. And 1945.

 

I, like many other people, believe that God has blessed and protected America, but the country's recent falling away from him is costing us dearly, as it did the ancient Israelites. 

 

 

Winston, what you state above sounds very similar to the Westoboro Baptist church. I am not saying you agree with their actions, but basically that is their message. 

 

I don't believe that religion is the litmus test for proving ones patriotism. Neither did our founding fathers. What ever our founding fathers personal religious beliefs were they saw the wisdom in creating a secular nation. They had first hand experience of what a nation ruled and governed by religion could do to its citizens and they wanted no more of it.

 

Atheist fought in all the conflicts this country has ever endured. Right along side the believers.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons. 

All one has to do is research the teachings of Christ, the followings of which the term Christian is derived, to see that NONE of the above quotations, or directives you posted are taught.

To the contrary, love, forgiveness, respect, and tolerance, with LOVE of all people being the foremost advocated. True Christians follow these teachings. I have seen it.

By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign.

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons. 

All one has to do is research the teachings of Christ, the followings of which the term Christian is derived, to see that NONE of the above quotations, or directives you posted are taught.

To the contrary, love, forgiveness, respect, and tolerance, with LOVE of all people being the foremost advocated. True Christians follow these teachings. I have seen it.

By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign.

I posted that billboard because it was relevant to the topic in this thread. I made no assumptions nor did I lump other Christians together with this whacko.

 

I made no comment at all on the billboard. You made all that up in your own head. Calm down for christ sake.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons. 

All one has to do is research the teachings of Christ, the followings of which the term Christian is derived, to see that NONE of the above quotations, or directives you posted are taught.

To the contrary, love, forgiveness, respect, and tolerance, with LOVE of all people being the foremost advocated. True Christians follow these teachings. I have seen it.

By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign.

I posted that billboard because it was relevant to the topic in this thread. I made no assumptions nor did I lump other Christians together with this whacko.

 

I made no comment at all on the billboard. You made all that up in your own head. Calm down for christ sake.

 

 

 

No reason for you to get p*ssed. It was simply a FREE analysis . YOU posted the sign. I reminded you not all faithful are like that.

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons. 

All one has to do is research the teachings of Christ, the followings of which the term Christian is derived, to see that NONE of the above quotations, or directives you posted are taught.

To the contrary, love, forgiveness, respect, and tolerance, with LOVE of all people being the foremost advocated. True Christians follow these teachings. I have seen it.

By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign.

I posted that billboard because it was relevant to the topic in this thread. I made no assumptions nor did I lump other Christians together with this whacko.

 

I made no comment at all on the billboard. You made all that up in your own head. Calm down for christ sake.

 

 

 

No reason for you to get p*ssed. It was simply a FREE analysis . YOU posted the sign. I reminded you not all faithful are like that.

 

 

LOL Once again I forgot you were a troll. Silly me.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons. 

All one has to do is research the teachings of Christ, the followings of which the term Christian is derived, to see that NONE of the above quotations, or directives you posted are taught.

To the contrary, love, forgiveness, respect, and tolerance, with LOVE of all people being the foremost advocated. True Christians follow these teachings. I have seen it.

By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign.

I posted that billboard because it was relevant to the topic in this thread. I made no assumptions nor did I lump other Christians together with this whacko.

 

I made no comment at all on the billboard. You made all that up in your own head. Calm down for christ sake.

 

 

 

No reason for you to get p*ssed. It was simply a FREE analysis . YOU posted the sign. I reminded you not all faithful are like that.

 

 

LOL Once again I forgot you were a troll. Silly me.

 

 

 

A "troll" to those who are totally wrapped up in their own  small world, professing factual knowledge.

A "troll" to those  hypocrites who want to use one set of values in their "arguments" while denying the same courtesy to the "other side".

A "troll" to those who are challenged when they assert unfounded "facts" with the presumption that no one will notice.

 

No need for you to be uncomfortable if you are honest, and not condescending.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

 

The founding fathers sought the blessing and protection of God, and miraculously, a rag-tag army defeated the most powerful military force on earth. And did it again in 1814. And 1945.

 

I, like many other people, believe that God has blessed and protected America, but the country's recent falling away from him is costing us dearly, as it did the ancient Israelites. 

 

 

Winston, what you state above sounds very similar to the Westoboro Baptist church. 

Would you like to elaborate on that?

 

I merely quoted the Declaration of Independence, which we should be celebrating tomorrow, and my beliefs about our country's relationship with our Creator. 

 

I believe you'll find many main-stream faithful in line with that. The Bible is full of accounts of God's faithful falling away from him, and the consequences of it. 

ReOriginally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

LOL Once again I forgot you were a troll. Silly me.

 

 

 

A "troll" to those who are totally wrapped up in their own  small world, professing factual knowledge.

A "troll" to those  hypocrites who want to use one set of values in their "arguments" while denying the same courtesy to the "other side".

A "troll" to those who are challenged when they assert unfounded "facts" with the presumption that no one will notice.

 

No need for you to be uncomfortable if you are honest, and not condescending.

 

 

So by me posting an image that was relevant to the discussion, and giving no commentary on it at all I somehow broke one of these "troll" rules you have?

 

Could you enlighten me on which one I broke to get this response from you:

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

"To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons."

 

and then,....

 

"By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign."

 

You're just throwing punches at shadows. I neither implied or assumed all Christians thought like this nut. So where did the troll rant come from? The billboard is just one such statement among many.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
ReOriginally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

 

LOL Once again I forgot you were a troll. Silly me.

 

 

 

A "troll" to those who are totally wrapped up in their own  small world, professing factual knowledge.

A "troll" to those  hypocrites who want to use one set of values in their "arguments" while denying the same courtesy to the "other side".

A "troll" to those who are challenged when they assert unfounded "facts" with the presumption that no one will notice.

 

No need for you to be uncomfortable if you are honest, and not condescending.

 

 

So by me posting an image that was relevant to the discussion, and giving no commentary on it at all I somehow broke one of these "troll" rules you have?

 

Could you enlighten me on which one I broke to get this response from you:

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

"To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons."

 

and then,....

 

"By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign."

 

You're just throwing punches at shadows. I neither implied or assumed all Christians thought like this nut. So where did the troll rant come from? The billboard is just one such statement among many.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what did you mean to imply? Anyone who has read any of your posts would be familiar with your views. Why do you act so oblivious to the fact?

Everyone who reads/posts on these forums eventually comes to "know" most of the posters convictions.

It's no surprise.

Stop acting like you meant anything other than throwing another "insult" out here at all christians.

You do this sh*t often, why get so twisted about it when it's shown for what it is?

At least be consistent.

 

Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

 

The founding fathers sought the blessing and protection of God, and miraculously, a rag-tag army defeated the most powerful military force on earth. And did it again in 1814. And 1945.

 

I, like many other people, believe that God has blessed and protected America, but the country's recent falling away from him is costing us dearly, as it did the ancient Israelites. 

 

 

Winston, what you state above sounds very similar to the Westoboro Baptist church. 

Would you like to elaborate on that?

 

I believe you'll find many main-stream faithful in line with that. The Bible is full of accounts of God's faithful falling away from him, and the consequences of it.

 

 

 

Sure, the Westboro group believe that AIDS, soldiers dying in war and natural disasters, like our recent tornadoes are a direct result of God being disappointed in America and taken his blessing from us. As I said I am sure you don't condone their actions, but their message is very much the same.

 

I merely quoted the Declaration of Independence, which we should be celebrating tomorrow, and my beliefs about our country's relationship with our Creator. 

 

I don't try and guess what our founding fathers thoughts were while writing the Declaration of Independence or other documents that are the back bone of our country. I simply agree with and support the secular society that they put forth in those documents.

 

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

So by me posting an image that was relevant to the discussion, and giving no commentary on it at all I somehow broke one of these "troll" rules you have?

 

Could you enlighten me on which one I broke to get this response from you:

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

"To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons."

 

and then,....

 

"By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign."

 

You're just throwing punches at shadows. I neither implied or assumed all Christians thought like this nut. So where did the troll rant come from? The billboard is just one such statement among many.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what did you mean to imply? Anyone who has read any of your posts would be familiar with your views. Why do you act so oblivious to the fact?

Everyone who reads/posts on these forums eventually comes to "know" most of the posters convictions.

It's no surprise.

Stop acting like you meant anything other than throwing another "insult" out here at all christians.

You do this sh*t often, why get so twisted about it when it's shown for what it is?

At least be consistent.

 

 

 

Did you even read what was being discussed when I posted that image? I am not going to re-post this thread like some people like to do to try and prove a point. Go back and read it and then see if you can find anywhere that I said or implied I was talking about ALL Christians.  You have no idea what I think unless I tell you what I am thinking. If I say it I mean it. If I don't then don't presume to know what I "really" meant. My words don't need to be interpreted. Or in this case my lack of words.

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:

So by me posting an image that was relevant to the discussion, and giving no commentary on it at all I somehow broke one of these "troll" rules you have?

 

Could you enlighten me on which one I broke to get this response from you:

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

No.1 You are either very naive...or

No.2 You have had a very limited contact with actual Christians...or

No.3 You are very biased, and therefore NOT open minded.

 

"To believe this type of "religious thinking" represents Christians as a whole,  and the teachings of the New Testament must be fueled by one of the above reasons."

 

and then,....

 

"By lumping MILLIONS of Christians / religious under one banner, you are just as guilty, if not much more so, of the same type of people who erected/believe this sign."

 

You're just throwing punches at shadows. I neither implied or assumed all Christians thought like this nut. So where did the troll rant come from? The billboard is just one such statement among many.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then what did you mean to imply? Anyone who has read any of your posts would be familiar with your views. Why do you act so oblivious to the fact?

Everyone who reads/posts on these forums eventually comes to "know" most of the posters convictions.

It's no surprise.

Stop acting like you meant anything other than throwing another "insult" out here at all christians.

You do this sh*t often, why get so twisted about it when it's shown for what it is?

At least be consistent.

 

 

 

Did you even read what was being discussed when I posted that image? I am not going to re-post this thread like some people like to do to try and prove a point. Go back and read it and then see if you can find anywhere that I said or implied I was talking about ALL Christians.  You have no idea what I think unless I tell you what I am thinking. If I say it I mean it. If I don't then don't presume to know what I "really" meant. My words don't need to be interpreted. Or in this case my lack of words.

 

 

 

I read exactly what was being discussed.

Did you not grasp my reference to your other posts? 

Why would anyone think you had suddenly changed course?

Atheists are being persecuted by religion. Religion is terrible. Right? 

That was pretty much the gist of the OP.

Then, we have the UNFOUNDED "Quote" by Bush, offered by AR.

Any atheist care to refute this statement? Nope.

Let a Christian try to run one by.

So, cut the "offended" crap out, and call a spade a spade.

There is no insinuation of the "Forefathers" wanting to establish a state sponsored religion.

That's the uneducated, fundamentalists. You people, for the most part, on this very forum, keep painting ALL religion with a broad brush, then! Get all bent out of shape when you are called on it.

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

I read exactly what was being discussed.

Did you not grasp my reference to your other posts? 

Why would anyone think you had suddenly changed course?

Atheists are being persecuted by religion. Religion is terrible. Right? 

That was pretty much the gist of the OP.

Then, we have the UNFOUNDED "Quote" by Bush, offered by AR.

Any atheist care to refute this statement? Nope.

Let a Christian try to run one by.

So, cut the "offended" crap out, and call a spade a spade.

There is no insinuation of the "Forefathers" wanting to establish a state sponsored religion.

That's the uneducated, fundamentalists. You people, for the most part, on this very forum, keep painting ALL religion with a broad brush, then! Get all bent out of shape when you are called on it.

 

 

Yes I read your reference to my other post, and as I told you if I say it I mean it, if I don't say something you have no idea what I am thinking. What a load of BS. Did you see where AR himself retracted his Bush statement when you pointed out that it could not be proven? What more do you want? My post was just a continuation of what we were discussing. Atheism is often said to be unpatriotic. If you don't want to discuss this issue then that's fine. I don't want to discuss it with someone who is just making stuff up as they go along. That is a pointless endeavor. If I had painted ALL religion with a broad brush, then you might have a point, since I didn't even type one word to get your panties in a wad over some imagined insult, I would say you are the one that got all bent out of shape.

 

 

 

 

 

Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

I read exactly what was being discussed.

Did you not grasp my reference to your other posts? 

Why would anyone think you had suddenly changed course?

Atheists are being persecuted by religion. Religion is terrible. Right? 

That was pretty much the gist of the OP.

Then, we have the UNFOUNDED "Quote" by Bush, offered by AR.

Any atheist care to refute this statement? Nope.

Let a Christian try to run one by.

So, cut the "offended" crap out, and call a spade a spade.

There is no insinuation of the "Forefathers" wanting to establish a state sponsored religion.

That's the uneducated, fundamentalists. You people, for the most part, on this very forum, keep painting ALL religion with a broad brush, then! Get all bent out of shape when you are called on it.

 

 

Yes I read your reference to my other post, and as I told you if I say it I mean it, if I don't say something you have no idea what I am thinking. What a load of BS. Did you see where AR himself retracted his Bush statement when you pointed out that it could not be proven? What more do you want? My post was just a continuation of what we were discussing. Atheism is often said to be unpatriotic. If you don't want to discuss this issue then that's fine. I don't want to discuss it with someone who is just making stuff up as they go along. That is a pointless endeavor. If I had painted ALL religion with a broad brush, then you might have a point, since I didn't even type one word to get your panties in a wad over some imagined insult, I would say you are the one that got all bent out of shape.

 

 

 

 

 Atheism is not unpatriotic. 

All religion is not bad.

You are not stupid.

I don't wear "panties".

You refuse to accept the reality of your posts.

 

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:
Originally Posted by DarkAngel:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

I read exactly what was being discussed.

Did you not grasp my reference to your other posts? 

Why would anyone think you had suddenly changed course?

Atheists are being persecuted by religion. Religion is terrible. Right? 

That was pretty much the gist of the OP.

Then, we have the UNFOUNDED "Quote" by Bush, offered by AR.

Any atheist care to refute this statement? Nope.

Let a Christian try to run one by.

So, cut the "offended" crap out, and call a spade a spade.

There is no insinuation of the "Forefathers" wanting to establish a state sponsored religion.

That's the uneducated, fundamentalists. You people, for the most part, on this very forum, keep painting ALL religion with a broad brush, then! Get all bent out of shape when you are called on it.

 

 

Yes I read your reference to my other post, and as I told you if I say it I mean it, if I don't say something you have no idea what I am thinking. What a load of BS. Did you see where AR himself retracted his Bush statement when you pointed out that it could not be proven? What more do you want? My post was just a continuation of what we were discussing. Atheism is often said to be unpatriotic. If you don't want to discuss this issue then that's fine. I don't want to discuss it with someone who is just making stuff up as they go along. That is a pointless endeavor. If I had painted ALL religion with a broad brush, then you might have a point, since I didn't even type one word to get your panties in a wad over some imagined insult, I would say you are the one that got all bent out of shape.

 

 

 

 

 Atheism is not unpatriotic. 

All religion is not bad.

You are not stupid.

I don't wear "panties".

You refuse to accept the reality of your posts.

 

 

 

I agree

I agree

You are correct

If you say so

The reality of my post is that atheism is often portrayed as unpatriotic. If you got anything more than that from it then you were grasping at straws.

Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

 

 

No reason for you to get p*ssed. It was simply a FREE analysis . YOU posted the sign. I reminded you not all faithful are like that.


But you also remind us, right here on this forum - on nearly a daily basis - that many Christians DO actually believe like that or something very close to it.

Originally Posted by Unobtanium:
Originally Posted by Blind Melon Chit'lin:

 

 

No reason for you to get p*ssed. It was simply a FREE analysis . YOU posted the sign. I reminded you not all faithful are like that.


But you also remind us, right here on this forum - on nearly a daily basis - that many Christians DO actually believe like that or something very close to it.

 

 

Are there any atheists who advocate religion be completely erased from society?

Atheists flying ad campaign meets strong resistance

By Katie Glaeser, CNN

(CNN)–It's a battle of belief - and the right not to believe - in a country founded on freedom.

"I'm a patriotic American. I served my country. I get out there and celebrate the Fourth, too," Blair Scott, who calls himself a proud atheist, proclaimed.

"This America belongs to everyone."

Blair, the communications director for the New Jersey-based American Atheists, said atheists in the United States often feel alienated and face accusations of being anti-American because of their lack of belief in God.

To combat those notions, his group is using Independence Day to say atheists love their country, too.

But the way they're spreading their message might have Americans looking to the sky this Fourth of July and finding something besides fireworks to stir emotion.

Planes with banners that read "God-LESS America" or "Atheism is Patriotic" will be flying over 27 states on Monday. While people might be leery to see the messages overhead, the $23,000 campaign has had a struggle with those who are supposed to bring it to life.

Justin Jaye of Fly Signs Aerial Advertising, who is orchestrating the flights for American Atheists, said out of the 85 people in the country who fly these sign-pulling planes only about 17 have agreed to fly the messages.

"I've been in this business for 20 years and I've never run into so much resistance on people flying," Jaye said. "I've had pilots who are actual atheists who said, 'Justin, I am an atheist and I won't fly it because I can't wear a bulletproof vest.'"

Dave Silverman, president of American Atheists, says the reaction to the organization's campaign before it takes off shows how much work the group still needs to do. "This is a clear reminder of why we need to keep fighting because the bigotry against us is so thick that a lot of the pilots are afraid to fly our banners," he said.

Jaye said while some feared for their lives, others feared for their marriages. He had one pilot say his wife would divorce him if he made the flight.

Red Calvert, a pilot and president of Pro-Air Enterprises in Indianapolis, said his reasons to decline the flight were based on his personal beliefs.

"I respect our country and I respect our churches and we've got enough problems in our country without stirring up some more," he said. "If those people want to do something they believe in, fine, just don't include me."

The American Atheists hope to draw attention and spur public discussion through their campaign on Monday.

"It's going to remind people that atheism is at that ballgame and at that beach and at that parade. We are patriotic people," Silverman said.

 ============================================

 

The fact that only 27 states agreed, actually, it turned out to be 26,  makes me see the problem atheists have. I really did not see it on this big of a scale. Sad.

My apologies to all atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers This really sucks..

Thanks b. I appreciate the sentiment. It's clear that we have a ways to go and this is a good demonstration of it. Though I'm proud that Alabama got one! In The South, I think Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas got one too. I think pilots in S. Carolina and Kentucky backed out due to pressure near the end in addition to a company in N. Carolina who refused to fly the sign reportedly because, “I’m not going to Hell flying that sign!”

Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Why are atheists, agnostics, and non-believers making so much noise these days? Is it the new un-religion? Or is it a sign of the end times?

1920's: Why are women making so much noise these days?
1960's: Why are blacks making so much noise these days?
1980's: Why are g ays making so much noise these days?
2010's: Why are atheists making so much noise these days?

Answer: For the same freedoms and civil rights that others already enjoy.

 

"Why are we doing this? How many times have you heard theists refer to atheists as un-American, anti-American, or un-patriotic? How many times have you heard theists insist “there are no atheists in foxholes?” These canards are an insult to all atheist Americans who love and support the United States. The very fact that we stand up to defend the constitutional separation of church and state, fight for the civil rights of all non-theists, and work to ensure true freedom of religion is one of the most patriotic things anyone can do! By defending against theocracy, we are acting patriotic and defending the founding document of this country. What better day to emphasize this than on the birthday of our great country?

This campaign is not about pushing the “atheist agenda” or shoving our views down people’s throats. This is about advertising and raising the tide for all atheists across the United States. This is about getting Americans to recognize the role atheists play in this country and our dedication to its constitution. This is about generating public discussion about atheism, religion and the role of religion in politics and our national identity. This is an opportunity for public discourse about the very issues that are important not only to us, but to every American (whether they realize it or not). For more details about why atheism is patriotic, please visit our Patriotism article HERE." [already quoted above in this thread]
http://atheists.org/blog/2011/...-pictures-win-shirts

Last edited by A. Robustus
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Why are atheists, agnostics, and non-believers making so much noise these days? Is it the new un-religion? Or is it a sign of the end times? 

 

If I didn't like broccoli, I wouldn't be running around telling those who do that they're ignorant and primitive, and trying to convice them to stop eating it. 

          **************************************************************************************************

 

Tell me you're kidding. You think it's that simple? Atheism is not new, and why would it signal "end times"?  Christians are still the majority. We're "making noise" because as bad as you hate it, that's our right.

Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

Why are atheists, agnostics, and non-believers making so much noise these days? Is it the new un-religion? Or is it a sign of the end times? 

 

If I didn't like broccoli, I wouldn't be running around telling those who do that they're ignorant and primitive, and trying to convice them to stop eating it. 

Do you know why the noise is being made? Of course, I'm not speaking for others, so this is just how I see things. I haven't yet made that leap to Atheism, (I still have lots of questions)  though I have been treated much better by Atheist than some Christians.

If there's any noise being made by me, it's because I don't like having religion shoved down my throat, & being told how wrong I am. Why can all of us not accept each other the way we are w/o telling the other how stupid they are for the way they believe?

If I didn't like broccoli but someone was trying to force me to eat it anyway, I would eat it & then puke it up all over them. Betcha they wouldn't be trying to force it on me again.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Winston Niles Rumfoord:

If I didn't like broccoli but someone was trying to force me to eat it anyway, I would eat it & then puke it up all over them. Betcha they wouldn't be trying to force it on me again.

 

 

Yeah I am getting pretty tired of eating the broccoli. LOL Thanks b50m and Semi for the support.

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