You added a bit too much to this statement. I believe that "Child porn laws are to protect children from being exploited." PERIOD. By anyone. Regardless of age or gender. Do you think it is ok for a 13 year old to take a pic of another 13 year old in the shower during gym and send it to all of their buddies? I agree, it is MORE wrong for an adult to do so, but it is still wrong for the child to do it. It is a crime. It is an action that can scar the victim for the rest of their life, and that does not get excused just because "they are kids".
We were talking about 12 year olds in that post and yes - 12 year olds may legally have sex with one another.quote:Originally posted by mekirk2:
Well, I just read the rest of the thread and realized that TSC corrected herself about her statement that minors may have sex with minors. Some minors may have sex with other minors based mostly on age difference.
Michael
...Mekirk2, I'm wondering - where does your "they are only kids" defense end? You say they should not be punished for taking pornographic pictures and distributing them.
Is it ok for a child to grab another child's genitals, because they are kids? Ok to sexually assault another child with an object? Ok to rape another child?
Where do you draw the line?
Is it ok for a child to grab another child's genitals, because they are kids? Ok to sexually assault another child with an object? Ok to rape another child?
Where do you draw the line?
quote:Originally posted by T S C:
You added a bit too much to this statement. I believe that "Child porn laws are to protect children from being exploited." PERIOD. By anyone. Regardless of age or gender. Do you think it is ok for a 13 year old to take a pic of another 13 year old in the shower during gym and send it to all of their buddies? I agree, it is MORE wrong for an adult to do so, but it is still wrong for the child to do it. It is a crime. It is an action that can scar the victim for the rest of their life, and that does not get excused just because "they are kids".
If you go back and look at the original article that this topic was started over, that article deals with children taking picture of themselves and sharing them, not someone taking pictures of a classmate without their knowledge. And these pictures were sent out by the child who took the picture. So, as I was saying before, it is insane to take the child porn laws, which were enacted to protect children from being exploited by others, and apply them to a child that took the picture of themself.
As for children that take pictures of other children, yes, they should be punished (and numerous times in my posts I state this!), but I do not believe they should receive the same punishment as an adult because they do not have the ability to comprehend the consequences of their actions in the same way an adult does.
Michael
quote:I do not believe they should receive the same punishment as an adult because they do not have the ability to comprehend the consequences of their actions in the same way an adult does.
What if a child rapes another child? Murders another child? Different punishment? These are teens, not 5 year olds.
quote:Originally posted by T S C:
...Mekirk2, I'm wondering - where does your "they are only kids" defense end? You say they should not be punished for taking pornographic pictures and distributing them.
Is it ok for a child to grab another child's genitals, because they are kids? Ok to sexually assault another child with an object? Ok to rape another child?
Where do you draw the line?
Please take the time to reread my posts, and make sure you pay close attention to the parts where I state that there should be consequences to each of these offences. WHAT I SAID WAS, AND LISTEN CLOSELY, CHILDREN SHOULD NOT BE HELD TO THE SAME STANDARDS AS ADULTS AND HAVE ADULT LAWS APPLIED TO THEM IN THE SAME MANNER. (And yes, I know I am yelling!)
Would you apply the same consequences to a child that grabbed another childs genitals as you would to an adult that would grab a childs genitals? I believe the same for rape. An adult knows that these acts are wrong. A child should be evaluated to find out why that child committed the crime and what can be done to prevent it and rehabilitate the child. The consequences should match the crime and the age of the child that committed the act.
Michael
quote:Originally posted by T S C:quote:I do not believe they should receive the same punishment as an adult because they do not have the ability to comprehend the consequences of their actions in the same way an adult does.
What if a child rapes another child? Murders another child? Different punishment? These are teens, not 5 year olds.
Science has shown that teenagers minds do not function in the same manner as an adult, which is why a 13 or 14 year old is still, legally, considered a child. So, to answer your question, IMHO, yes, there should be a different punishment for a 13 year old rapist and a 30 year old rapist.
Michael
Again, we are talking about teens, not 5 year olds. Teens are sentenced as adults for murder in this country. I think the same should hold true for other crimes, such as rape. If some kid raped my daughter, you bet your bottom dollar that I'd want them punished to the fullest possible extent of the law... and then some.quote:Would you apply the same consequences to a child that grabbed another childs genitals as you would to an adult that would grab a childs genitals? I believe the same for rape. An adult knows that these acts are wrong. A child should be evaluated to find out why that child committed the crime and what can be done to prevent it and rehabilitate the child. The consequences should match the crime and the age of the child that committed the act.
We'll have to agree to disagree. In my opinion, a monster is a monster - regardless of age.quote:Originally posted by mekirk2:
Science has shown that teenagers minds do not function in the same manner as an adult, which is why a 13 or 14 year old is still, legally, considered a child. So, to answer your question, IMHO, yes, there should be a different punishment for a 13 year old rapist and a 30 year old rapist.
Michael
I got in on the tail end part of this conversation, but I used to work with juvenile sex offenders several years ago. Before a "child" is sentenced they are thoroughly evaluated and the sentences that are passed down do keep in mind their age and maturity and all of those subjective criteria.
"Science" can say what it wants. YOu can manipulate studies and statistics to make a report say anything you want it to say. But 13 year old rapists are sent to places like Three Springs and while they are "children" you never forget "what" they are and that is predators...depending on the sentence for the crime they committed they are sometimes (but not always) sentenced to a lock down facility for the worst of the worst and they still have to register as sex offenders once they turn 18 -- and from what I learned working there -- there is no rehabilitation for a true sex offender -- there is lots of denial and lots of spins and lots of processing but there is no rehab...they will offend again...They have the same sexual reactions to stimuli and go through the same cycles as adults and they prey and seduce and manipulate and feed their "monster" inside...They may not offend on little Janie down the street but they will offend again...and again...and you never know what their triggers will be...a cross word, a white shirt, the smell of a certain perfume/cologne...they may lay dormant for a while, but when it happens they will offend again...You will never know how many victims a pedophile truly has because they don't self-report accurately and kids don't always report when they are groped, stalked or attacked until there are physical and obvious signs...
So to get back to the part you were talking about I think "innocent" nudey pictures from one teenager to another -- you may know what is going on with your kid, but you don't know what is going on with the other kid on the other phone...it could be far more sinister...
"Science" can say what it wants. YOu can manipulate studies and statistics to make a report say anything you want it to say. But 13 year old rapists are sent to places like Three Springs and while they are "children" you never forget "what" they are and that is predators...depending on the sentence for the crime they committed they are sometimes (but not always) sentenced to a lock down facility for the worst of the worst and they still have to register as sex offenders once they turn 18 -- and from what I learned working there -- there is no rehabilitation for a true sex offender -- there is lots of denial and lots of spins and lots of processing but there is no rehab...they will offend again...They have the same sexual reactions to stimuli and go through the same cycles as adults and they prey and seduce and manipulate and feed their "monster" inside...They may not offend on little Janie down the street but they will offend again...and again...and you never know what their triggers will be...a cross word, a white shirt, the smell of a certain perfume/cologne...they may lay dormant for a while, but when it happens they will offend again...You will never know how many victims a pedophile truly has because they don't self-report accurately and kids don't always report when they are groped, stalked or attacked until there are physical and obvious signs...
So to get back to the part you were talking about I think "innocent" nudey pictures from one teenager to another -- you may know what is going on with your kid, but you don't know what is going on with the other kid on the other phone...it could be far more sinister...
As the law does see the difference between children and adults in this case, it should also see the difference between them in all cases. My point in the discussion was that there should be a difference between how an offending child is handled and how an offending adult is handled by the legal system and that we need to send a clear message to our children about at what point they are considered an adult legally (which is not the case now.)
And one other thing, it seems like people keep reading into my posts the fact that I approve of little John or Jane taking nude pictures of themselves and sending them to others. Where people are getting this idea I don't know, because I state numerous times that there should be consequences for this behavior. What I did say is I find it outrageous that little John or Jane can be charged with producing child pornography for taking a picture of themselves. This is a situation that the law was not written for and no one could have ever predicted happening when the law was drafted, so the punishment that was put in place for violating this law does not fit the crime with regards to this situation.
I think little John or Jane will have enough consequences to deal with when they realize the stupid mistake they made (ie, the picture being passed all over the school, posted on the internet, etc) without having to worry about registering as a sex offender their entire life.
Michael
And one other thing, it seems like people keep reading into my posts the fact that I approve of little John or Jane taking nude pictures of themselves and sending them to others. Where people are getting this idea I don't know, because I state numerous times that there should be consequences for this behavior. What I did say is I find it outrageous that little John or Jane can be charged with producing child pornography for taking a picture of themselves. This is a situation that the law was not written for and no one could have ever predicted happening when the law was drafted, so the punishment that was put in place for violating this law does not fit the crime with regards to this situation.
I think little John or Jane will have enough consequences to deal with when they realize the stupid mistake they made (ie, the picture being passed all over the school, posted on the internet, etc) without having to worry about registering as a sex offender their entire life.
Michael
quote:Originally posted by T S C:
Again, we are talking about teens, not 5 year olds. Teens are sentenced as adults for murder in this country. I think the same should hold true for other crimes, such as rape. If some kid raped my daughter, you bet your bottom dollar that I'd want them punished to the fullest possible extent of the law... and then some.
Yes, we are going to have to agree to disagree. But lets drop the discussion with this general though: At what age do we consider a child old enough to be treated as an adult in regards to committing a crime? And, whatever the age that you may believe that to be, would you trust your daughter or son to, at that age, make other adult decisions on their own (ie drop out of school, get married, buy cigarettes, etc.)?
quote:Originally posted by mekirk2:
As the law does see the difference between children and adults in this case, it should also see the difference between them in all cases. My point in the discussion was that there should be a difference between how an offending child is handled and how an offending adult is handled by the legal system and that we need to send a clear message to our children about at what point they are considered an adult legally (which is not the case now.)
And one other thing, it seems like people keep reading into my posts the fact that I approve of little John or Jane taking nude pictures of themselves and sending them to others. Where people are getting this idea I don't know, because I state numerous times that there should be consequences for this behavior. What I did say is I find it outrageous that little John or Jane can be charged with producing child pornography for taking a picture of themselves. This is a situation that the law was not written for and no one could have ever predicted happening when the law was drafted, so the punishment that was put in place for violating this law does not fit the crime with regards to this situation.
I think little John or Jane will have enough consequences to deal with when they realize the stupid mistake they made (ie, the picture being passed all over the school, posted on the internet, etc) without having to worry about registering as a sex offender their entire life.
Michael
The only way to explain to a "child" or even an "adult" at times where they are "legally" in this world is to teach them No under any circumstances to do things like sending nude pictures of themselves at all via any means. That is inappropriate behavior regardless...in my opinion and most parents opinion...the parents should handle it BEFORE the court system has too...
and if you find that your child has issues (of a predatory nature) -- SEEK HELP -- don't live in denial and ignore it -- it won't go away...
BTW -- mekirk -- I don't think you approve of it, I just wanted to clarify that children are handled as appropriately as possible under the circumstances of the situation...but it is extremely subjective regardless of how you look at it.
I understand the need for subjectivity, and there has to be some type of human element in the situation. There is another topic in News about a 17 year old rapist, and I can understand the want and need to consider that person an adult in regards to his crime. Unfortunately, subjectivity and allowing the human element into these situations also allows situations where personal gains or feelings come into play as well. The subjectivity has allowed DA's to consider 13 and 14 year olds as adults in some situations. I do not consider a 13, 14, or even a 15 year old in any way an adult. I don't think they have the mental facilities to make adult decisions or fully understand adult consequences. Between raging hormones and uncontrolled peer pressure, they will make mistakes, and it has been shown that their brains function in a different way than that of adults.
If we believe a 17 year old is an adult, we should make 17 the age of adulthood. It sets a double standard for us to say a 14 year old can be held responsible as an adult for taking a nude picture of themself but a 17 year olds parents are held responsible if they skip school. Our laws have become so bloated and padded that they contradict themselves sometimes.
Michael
If we believe a 17 year old is an adult, we should make 17 the age of adulthood. It sets a double standard for us to say a 14 year old can be held responsible as an adult for taking a nude picture of themself but a 17 year olds parents are held responsible if they skip school. Our laws have become so bloated and padded that they contradict themselves sometimes.
Michael
I agree that if a teen skips school -- they should send him to a weekend in juvie and maybe he would straighten up instead of holding the parents to that high standard. It goes back to "do the crime do the time" for me in respect to most crimes.
I agree that many of the laws concerning children and what is considered and adult don't make sense, but believe me, many of the "kids" at Three Springs were fully aware of what they were doing and that it was morally wrong and against the law and they did it anyway. Many of them were "repeat offenders" who had been given many, many, many chances to make good decisions and they didn't. It wasn't the parents that had them fondling their little cousin at the family reunion -- it was them...maybe if the law/courts had intervened sooner in their family life things could have been different for some of them, but that was not the case.
One particular "boy" even raped an adult staff member and suffered the consequences for it -- he knew what he was doing and he knew it was going to get him sent to the "big house". He was a few days before his birthday and he was considered an adult in the eyes of the law for the crime he committed and he was sentenced and treated as an adult -- as he should have been.
I agree that many of the laws concerning children and what is considered and adult don't make sense, but believe me, many of the "kids" at Three Springs were fully aware of what they were doing and that it was morally wrong and against the law and they did it anyway. Many of them were "repeat offenders" who had been given many, many, many chances to make good decisions and they didn't. It wasn't the parents that had them fondling their little cousin at the family reunion -- it was them...maybe if the law/courts had intervened sooner in their family life things could have been different for some of them, but that was not the case.
One particular "boy" even raped an adult staff member and suffered the consequences for it -- he knew what he was doing and he knew it was going to get him sent to the "big house". He was a few days before his birthday and he was considered an adult in the eyes of the law for the crime he committed and he was sentenced and treated as an adult -- as he should have been.
quote:Originally posted by T S C:
Ya'll are all sweet! Now if only my daughter understood that I don't do these things to make her miserable... oh, and if you have AT&T - get SmartLimits. I can lock her phone down between certain hours so no calls / no texts at 3:00 in the morning, except to numbers that I approve of (like mine and her dad's numbers). Great for when she's grounded from the phone, but I need her to have it so she can call and tell me when to pick her up from practice or whatever.
Your daughter may not realize it right now but it sounds as if you are a great Mom!
Most of these kids are just doing what they see the adults do. When a mom, for example, has her boyfriend over for the weekend, she is setting the standard.
Wow, now there is another idiot out there like me that thinks that these children should be helped instead of convicted of child porn and treated like an adult:
Megan's Law mom criticizes 'sexting' charges
Straight from the mouth of the person who helped push Megans Law.
Kirk
Megan's Law mom criticizes 'sexting' charges
Straight from the mouth of the person who helped push Megans Law.
Kirk
Sounds pretty simple to me, Ban all cell phones in school. What reason do kids need a personal phone with them. I went through high school and college without one, and never missed out on anything.l
quote:Originally posted by T S C:
hers has Linux) and I have to print them for her. BTW - I am the meanest mommy in the world.
Linux?! You are the meanest mom in the world!
On the original topic of sending nude pics on cell phones, YES there needs to be consequences! I believe there needs to be some new law/consequence for this particular crime with teens. I do not believe that they should have to be registered as a sex offender. To me personally, that is a label for rapist, molesters, persons who commit sodomy, or any other offense that involves unwanted personal bodily contact with an individual. This goes for adults as well as teens.
quote:Originally posted by bamacarl:
Sounds pretty simple to me, Ban all cell phones in school. What reason do kids need a personal phone with them. I went through high school and college without one, and never missed out on anything.l
Me too! If there was an emergency or urgent situation where I needed to call my parents I simply walked into the office and used the phone there! There was also *gasp* a pay phone across from the office you could use.
quote:Originally posted by lynnblount:
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! Y'all are all talking about how great it is to block your kids phones in order to prevent this behavior...what about addressing the fact that they would do it in the first place??
Tell your kids why this is wrong and especially your daughters how damaging this could be to their reputation and self esteem. My kids are in grade school and we have already had several discussions about why pictures like that are wrong.
Shutting down the phone camera or ability to send/receive pics is comparable to treating a symptom and ignoring the disease. If your kids are intent upon taking the "cool sexy " pics like some of the kids at school are doing, they will just use a digital camera or a friend's phone. How naive are you, parents?
You're absolutly right Lynnblount.
Although getting to the root of the problem is the key to any solution, getting the key to the problem is the root in finding the solution. Parents saying "No" isn't the answer either. The kids will just go behind your back to do whatever they want as soon as you're out of sight. In other words, you can't heal a disease if you don't have a cure. When left on their own, the mice will play when the cat's away, so to speak. So whatcha gonna do parents... lock your kids in their rooms and throw away the keys? That will only make things worse for you and set limitations on your life. I say take them to church instead of the mall. Make them work for what they want instead of letting them run amuck, doing whom ever or whatever they please. Make them use the public pay phones instead of buying them cell phones. And know their friends. Church will create honorable self esteem and dignity. Working will create character, not trouble seeking monsters that you can't control. Pay phones will limit their calling ability and provide assurance that pictures and or text messages will not be transmitted. Buying cell phones or minutes for children to abuse and then paying another $9.99 a month ( or whatever ) to limit the usage will only create a call to temptation, allowing your kids to retaliate or bend the rules that you made. So take full control of your children by controling their lives. Make examples not enemies.
BTW, the phone number for temptation is 876-8253 Or spelled out on the keypad it's T.R.O.U.B.L.E.
Do it now or your kid's may have to pay for it later.
DixieChik, in your several post on this topic, you have articulated what I believe, and have done a far better job than I would have done...KUDOS!!
I grew up in an era where females were embarrased if their slip was showing; therefore, I can't begin to understand or rationalize what motivates these young people to be so extreme in their lack of morality, modesty and appropriate behavior.
I grew up in an era where females were embarrased if their slip was showing; therefore, I can't begin to understand or rationalize what motivates these young people to be so extreme in their lack of morality, modesty and appropriate behavior.