Central Tenet of Christianity

I don't agree.

what4, You said you could see how people can come to do those terrible things, & there's most always room for some mercy & understanding. Who were you referring to when you mentioned the court of law & expecting them to be tried & convicted?

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Criminals.

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The things I mentioned was referring to Bill. So it's ok for Bill to treat most of us the way he does, even though he claims to be a Christian?

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Christians can never justify themselves for any wrong, no matter how much they feel they're provoked. But I'm not following people around to monitor them, and I prefer not to be called on to be the Christian monitor here. I hate to point fingers. Sometimes I feel it is necessary. But I hate it.

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I also understand how a man or a woman can be tempted to step outside his/her marriage & forget any commitment to their spouse. But all the understanding in the world doesn't make it right, doesn't matter if you're a believer or non-believer.

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I agree.

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You danced around my question about lust. I know all about lust & desires, & it being the very thing that draws us to the opposite sex, all those things you mentioned. The Bible says "But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

That sounds as plain as you can get to me. If you lust, you have committed adultery.        

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So what are you saying? Are you asking me if everybody has commited adultery in their heart at some point in time?  I would say that most everybody has done that. If anybody thinks they can get to heaven by being perfect, or without trusting Jesus as their Savior, then they are under a sever delusion of reality. Without Christ dieing for us on the cross and shedding his blood on our account, we would have no hope. Those who set their heart and mind on following Christ will still need, and will still have, Christ's blood cleansing them of all their sins. The grace of God will be sufficient for those who trust and follow Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Ay, yi, yi.... W4, you know I like you.  We're buds.  But honestly, if you were blindly gullible, how would your post look different?  The adherents of every religion have the same flowery ****ulations about their own gods and prophets.  All y'all ain't right, you know.

Now, you might want to do a bit of research, within Christian sources if you'd prefer, about the authorship of the Gospels.  No serious Bible scholar with whom I am familiar really thinks that the Gospels were written by members of Jesus' clique.  Let me ask you a question:  In, say, the book of John, why does it say things like "And John sayeth..." instead of "I said"?  And how, for example, did any of the Apostles know what was going on in the Garden of Gethsemane when the story admits that all the Apostles were asleep?  The Gospels are stories that could hardly be written by old Israeli fishermen.

Every book of the NT is in agreement with the others?  Have you read the Gospels analytically, that is reading the same stories from each Gospel at the same time, rather than read each book from front to back?  They're really quite different, and since we know now that Mark was the original Gospel, it is only reasonable and likely that whatever similarities exist are because the other Gospels are derivative of Mark.

DF

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You refer to the book of John.

In, say, the book of John, why does it say things like "And John sayeth..." instead of "I said"? 

The Apostle John was trying to keep himself out of the picture and allow Jesus to be the center of focus. I believe at times he referred to himself as the Apostle that Jesus loved rather than call his own name. He would not have wanted to draw attention to himself by saying," I said". It is also possible that John dictated what happened to another person who wrote it down for him.

As far as the prayer at the Garden of Gethsemane, at least one of the Apostles could have overheard Christ's prayer while he was praying those particular words that were recorded. They could have easily fallen asleep later. Since it says they fell asleep, then it is possible that Jesus spent a long time praying about other matters that they may have never heard. But also, the Holy Spirit could have revealed to them what Jesus said, or Jesus himself could have recalled that evening and told them what happened. Jesus did spend quite some time with them after he arose from the dead and before his ascension into heaven. I don't know why you think fisherman couldn't remember details of what happened and what was said by Jesus.  They didn't have to be scientists to remember what Jesus said and did. And the fact that they were common men would tell you that they wouldn't have had the capacity to make up Christ's words and his miraculous accounts.

As far as one or two of the gospels being partly derivatives of Mark, there could be some truth to that. If you are writing a biography of someone's life from the perspective of eyewitnesses, and you already have available a valid written testimony of that person's life that you knew was accurate, then surely you could use that to help you piece the other stories around it rather than begin from scratch. Yet there was evidence as you say that varied slightly from one to the other, which would lead you to believe that each was recalling what happened from their own perspective, or from the perspective of the eyewitnesses they were interviewing or writing for. It is also possible that the things that Jesus spoke were written down by some of the Apostles or disciples as they followed Christ, and later all the teachings were put together in story format and attributed to him speaking some things at one location and some things at another, when maybe they got the time and place wrong, but the substance of what was said and the main elements of what happened remained the same. Time and place surely wouldn't have been as important to the gospel writers as Christ's message and the things that Jesus did. The vast agreement between these gospels give witness that these accounts actually happened and were not made up.

You say these things could have been made up and borrowed from other religions. I don't believe anyone would have had the vision to make up what Jesus said and did, and be able to keep their stories in sequence with the other. The fact that these accounts are so identical just lends to the overall credibility of the gospel accounts of Christ. Also, the writings of the Apostles Peter, Paul, and John to the churches were all written in their own styles, at different times and locations, and for different purposes, yet they gave credibility to the other's writings, as well as to the gospel writings. There was no true conflict in any of them when you look at them and understand what they were saying.

By simply browsing the internet I found a little information that seems to give evidence that the gospels could have easily been written while the Apostles and eye witnesses of Jesus were still alive.

It appears that Matthew and Mark could have been written as early as 50 AD to 70 AD according to small fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Jesus is believed to have died somewhere around 30 to 36 AD, which means these two gospels could have been written as early as 35 years after Christ's death. So the gospels could have easily been written within the time that the Apostles and other eye witnesses of Jesus were still living. If that is the case, then the miracle accounts would be reliable since there were witnesses still present who could have easily shot them down had they not been true.

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/article1.htm

Other New Testament Quotes Identified in the Scrolls

Other Scroll Fragments and the New Testament

http://www.faithfacts.org/sear.../manuscript-evidence

The following also gives credible evidence through deductive reasoning that the gospels accounts were written not long after Christ's death. I don't believe the basic teachings of Christ and his miracle accounts are in conflict from one to the other except for maybe time and place or order that they occurred. If you have more than one account of an entire life of a person, then you can expect each account to be focused on different things and possibly jump through a different ordered sequence of events. We could argue about these differences but chances are that nothing would change. You would find something to find fault in and I could probably point out some reason that you could be wrong.

http://www.probe.org/site/c.fd...y_of_the_Gospels.htm

I'll be glad to follow up on the rest of your questions about saved from what and original sin, etc. later. You deserve having answers to these questions. They're valid questions.

Take care

Vega,

OOOooooooooooooooK, let's just play the game..... what, say you, IS the central tenet of Christianity?

DF

Glory be to God, Who does not blame us for the sins of our ancestors (Ezekiel 18:20).

Am I feeding a troll, or just indulging a newby?

DF

Hi Jennifer,

I have clearly shown the error of Deep's statement.   You have shown nothing.  All you do is huff and puff, making false accusation with a lot of noise -- and hope someone believes you.  Once again, it is the old "throw it against the wall and see if it sticks" tactic.  Sorry, my Friend, nothing you say sticks.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

W4,

You might be the only honest Christian here.  That's saying something.

Now, as far as John, among others, not wanting to draw attention to himself, that's a bit of a stretch.  If he had written the Gospel in the first person, it does not detract from the story of Jesus.

Second, the story of Gethsemane clearly states that all the apostles were asleep when Jesus prayed.  If that is the case, then who wrote the story?  Do you know something the author of the Gospels did not?

The Grant Jeffries reference is entirely vague.  It does not mention Jesus by name.  One would think that it would, even in the off chance that it is chronologically viable.

I can't get the faith facts page to upload, sorry.

YOu said: I'll be glad to follow up on the rest of your questions about saved from what and original sin, etc. later. You deserve having answers to these questions. They're valid questions.

Thanks.  Now would be a good time.  Here is the place.  I'm listening.

DF

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Hey Deep, Thanks for trusting my sincerity my friend. Although we strongly disagree on things, I actually have to admit that I like you. I respect that you are who you are, and there's no pretense about you.

On the issue of how could anyone know what Jesus was doing if the Apostles were sleeping. The Holy Spirit can reveal many things to a person that they can't know otherwise. And as I said earlier, Jesus himself could have revealed this to his disciples in just sharing with them his last trials and recounting the situation with them as he spent time with them before his ascension. Jesus is still alive my friend and he still communicates with his children who seek him with all of their heart in faith and in sincerity. God has spoken to me on a few occasions. Even though I was seeking him in prayer and looking for his response, it still was a bit surprising how so directly he addressed my concern and how so uniquely he got his answer across to me. I'm nothing in the realm of all the people that make up God's family. But yet, he has taken time to hear my prayers and interact with me. That should give hope to everyone who desires to know him on a more personal level.

It's been a little busy lately. I do plan on answering your questions as best I can, but it may be a few days. Be patient my friend.

Take care.

Crusty, I'm afraid I don't understand your criticism of W4.

DF

W4, it has been my observation that when "the Holy Spirit" reveals things to humans, it is our imagination at work.  There is no Holy Spirit.  We have imagined such.  If I'm wrong, show me your evidence.

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My friend, you may not have seen anything that bears evidence of the Holy Spirit, but I certainly have. It wasn't my imagination. I don't want to get too specific here. But I will share one experience and generalize it. I was praying and fasting one time and seeking God for an answer to a particular question I was troubled over. During that time while I was fasting and praying, I never told anybody about what I was seeking God for. Nobody but my wife even knew that I was praying and fasting. A revival at a church took place during that time and I attended it. I went forward to pray. I did not tell this man who came to me what question I had that I was praying about. The person without knowing what I was praying for, looked at me and said, "God had a word for you." He then gave me the word from God as if God himself was speaking to me. It directly addressed what I had been praying and fasting about. None but God could have known. I was confident it was truly from God. I was greatly encouraged.

About 3 months later, I began to wonder again about the same matter. I wondered if maybe it was just by chance that this man said those words to me,as unlikely as it could have been. I wondered if it was really God. So again I set my heart to seek God and I spent time in prayer and fasting. I asked God for confirmation. Again, nobody knew what I was praying about and nobody but my wife had any idea that I had been fasting. During that time I was helping this person in a little group service outside the church. He was teaching and I was leading the singing. While we were singing, I noticed that he stopped singing, and acted as he was a bit taken back as if something just came to him. He laid the song book down and picked up the bible and began flipping through the pages. About 7 people may have been there at this gathering. When we finally stopped singing, he said somebody here needs this word. God gave me this word to give to somebody and I don't know who it is. He began reading from the bible. It was the very same words that I heard before when I was praying and fasting. The man looked out over that small crowd and wondered who the word was for. He didn't look at me. He didn't know it was for me. I was behind him. My friend. Those were the exact same words that God spoke to me before when I was praying and fasting about that same thing. Nobody in that little crowd said it was for them. It would have been very odd if it had been for someone else. God gave me the confirmation that I asked for. He spoke directly to the question I had. He used the same words to me that he had used the previous time when I had prayed and fasted about that same thing. It didn't happen in my head. I had no control over it. It happened in God's way, and it happened while I was praying and fasting.

There have been other times that I have seen God move similar to that. I can't say that my life has been full of such things. It hasn't. But there have been enough things that have happened in my life that defy coincidence and I can't chalk them up to accident. God has his own way of doing things. I have seen things as well as heard things that let me know that God is real. If I shared everything with you, it might not convince you of anything, but God has definitely convinced me He exists.

God has also spoken to me directly, without any other person involved. But I have never heard an audible voice. Nevertheless, there was no question that God spoke. Everytime he responded to me, his response was direct and it surprised me a bit. Each time, I didnt expect it to come the way it came, or to be as direct as it was.

God has also healed me on a couple of occasions while I was praying. I have seen no miracles. But I have been healed. And those healings came while I was praying, and not a week or two later. I also believe God has worked for others and answerd my prayer on their behalf while I was praying.  Those times might could be chalked up to coincidence, but I don't believe it was coincidence. My life has not been full of wondrous things, But God nevertheless has interened in my life in ways I know it was him. They may not convince others, but they convince me.

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Jesus, if he ever lived, has been dead for 2000 years.  He promised to return during the lifetimes of the mortal humans who heard the promise, and failed.  Why does this not make him a false prophet?

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You will have to be a little clearer on this part before I can comment. You may have to keep in mind that sometimes a day in God's time is not intended to mean a 24 hour day. If that is not what you mean, then I dont know. Be a little more specific.

And in Luke 18:16-17, Jesus remarked: “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

That doesn't sound like the origional sin theory. DF you made that up didn't you. 

"The central tenet of Christianity is that people are cursed from the Garden because of Original Sin, and that Jesus came and died to save people from that curse."

Sorry, but that's incorrect.

The central tenet is probably best summed up in John 3:16. It's why it's quoted so much.

However, it's impossible to accurately explain Christianity with just a sound byte. Like any other subject, it requires questioning, study, and research.