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The central tenet of Christianity is that people are cursed from the Garden because of Original Sin, and that Jesus came and died to save people from that curse.

 

It's all booshwah.

 

First, one who calls himself a Christian must believe the above premise.  It is, according to Paul of Tarsus, the essential syllogism of the faith.  If one does not believe it, one is simply not a Christian.

 

A Christian cannot take it as a metaphor, nor in any symbolic fashion.  It must be believed at face value, according to the New Testament.

 

We now know that humans were not suddenly created, but evolved in degrees to the imperfect specimens we find ourselves today.  Issues of the soul, such as self-awareness, compassion, empathy, and the numinous can be found, to various degrees, in lesser animals.  We have simply refined those, and other, qualities to an abstract level.

 

We know that there were no Adam and Eve, per se.  We know that the Genesis account of Creation is not correct.  We now have the morality to understand that a curse on all of humankind is absurd for several reasons.

 

In other words, we know that the critical premise of Christianity is not only ridiculous, but wicked.  We are not born in sin, we are natural animals like all the other ones.  We are not cursed by a capricious, juvenile god.  Those who say we are are only trying to degrade our basic human dignity, so that they might suggest a false dignity instead.  Only fools listen to them now.

 

The time has come to reject this evil and corrosive notion, and to accept that we are evolved animals capable of realizing ourselves to a pretty good degree.  More truth, beauty, happiness, and wisdom will come to us when we do.  Now is the time.

 

DF

Make time for great justice.  Expect us.

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Hi Chick,

 

Yes, atheist will declare, many of them very loudly, that there is not God. 

 

Also, if you go to any prison, you will find 90% of the prisoners there will loudly declare that they are innocent of all charges.

 

It is rather like the old maxim, "You will find that 99 out of 100 teen boys will admit that they do.  The other one lies about it!"

 

If an atheist admits there is a God -- then, he/she has to explain why they do not follow His moral teachings.   By denying there is a God -- they save themselves that burden.  They are that 1 out 100 boys!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hell-Froze-Over_TEXT

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Yes, atheist will declare, many of them very loudly, that there is not God. 

 

Also, if you go to any prison, you will find 90% of the prisoners there will loudly declare that they are innocent of all charges.

 

It is rather like the old maxim, "You will find that 99 out of 100 teen boys will admit that they do.  The other one lies about it!"

 

If an atheist admits there is a God -- then, he/she has to explain why they do not follow His moral teachings.   By denying there is a God -- they save themselves that burden.  They are that 1 out 100 boys!

 

---------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, atheists are starting to speak out loudly, and it's about time. Do you even know what an atheist is bill? An atheist does not believe in a god or gods, that is not a denial. So there'd be no way they COULD "admit" there is one. Once more bill, what moral teachings should atheists be following? Surely not the ones you follow, you'd be a horrible example. 

Originally Posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:

All you've proven is that atheists believe they are above God.  In the end, every person you drive away from Christianity is ripe pickings for Islam.  Once enough of them have been established in this country, we'll see how forthcoming you'll be with your thoughts.

-------------------------------------------

I wish you could explain that post. First of all atheists don't believe in a god so there's no way to feel they're "above" one. If you're secure in your belief and have no doubts, how could you be driven away from christianity to the islam religion?  So you worry about the muslims taking over? Do you not think that atheists would stand against that? Do you honestly think an atheist would have, or has had, a problem stating they don't believe in any gods so of course that would mean the god the muslims worship?  Islam taking over? What you and other christians refuse to believe is that it's you, not atheists, that is opening the door for that to happen.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:

All you've proven is that atheists believe they are above God.  In the end, every person you drive away from Christianity is ripe pickings for Islam.  Once enough of them have been established in this country, we'll see how forthcoming you'll be with your thoughts.

-------------------------------------------

I wish you could explain that post. First of all atheists don't believe in a god so there's no way to feel they're "above" one. If you're secure in your belief and have no doubts, how could you be driven away from christianity to the islam religion?  So you worry about the muslims taking over? Do you not think that atheists would stand against that? Do you honestly think an atheist would have, or has had, a problem stating they don't believe in any gods so of course that would mean the god the muslims worship?  Islam taking over? What you and other christians refuse to believe is that it's you, not atheists, that is opening the door for that to happen.


You know not of what you speak.  I never said atheists were driving Christians to atheism.  There are multitudes of lost people looking for something meaningful, and atheism  isn't doing it for them.  Be it Christianity or islam they will continue to seek and Islam will be more than happy to have them.

 

I have zero confidence in atheist being able to stop islam in this country.  You guys talk and talk  as long as there is a safety net.  As soon as it's gone, lockjaw.  You never hear of an atheist group going into hostile areas to help the persecuted.  The freedoms to spew your hatred for Christianity will not exist in an America dominated by islam.

 

Christianity has deep roots in this country and has nothing to do with the growth of islam in this country.  I do find it interesting that the more presence athism has the bigger the muslim popluation in this country gets.  I'm not talking about muslim immigrants either.

You know not of what you speak.  I never said atheists were driving Christians to atheism.  There are multitudes of lost people looking for something meaningful, and atheism  isn't doing it for them.  Be it Christianity or islam they will continue to seek and Islam will be more than happy to have them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Then who are you saying is driving them away from christianity? Atheism may not be "doing it for them", but apparently neither is christianity. They might find islam doesn't "do it for them" either.





I have zero confidence in atheist being able to stop islam in this country.  You guys talk and talk  as long as there is a safety net.  As soon as it's gone, lockjaw.  You never hear of an atheist group going into hostile areas to help the persecuted.  The freedoms to spew your hatred for Christianity will not exist in an America dominated by islam

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I never said atheists would "stop" islam in this country. I said atheists would STAND AGAINST IT or any other religion taking over. What safety net do atheists have? Christians make death threats against atheists, post horrible things they think should happen to atheists, lie about atheists, call them all sorts of names, work against them in every way possible yet you say they have a "safety net"?  Who do you think gave christians the freedom to spew their hatred against atheists and other religions? Only christians? Plenty of atheists have fought for freedoms in this country, and are still fighting for them. What hostile areas to help what persecuted against what persecution? Atheists fight for the persecuted every day, right here in this country and all over the world. They fight for the ones getting the death threats and having their freedoms taken away or denied by ALL religions. How is that having "lockjaw"?  Or is it that you think atheists should somehow "protect" only your religion against all others?





Christianity has deep roots in this country and has nothing to do with the growth of islam in this country.  I do find it interesting that the more presence athism has the bigger the muslim popluation in this country gets.  I'm not talking about muslim immigrants either.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the more muslims as atheism grows, one has nothing to do with the other.  Maybe if you made christianity more attractive to your followers they wouldn't be leaving you for islam. Atheism is a non-belief in any god and there'd be no reason for it to push one belief over another.



"The central tenet of Christianity is that people are cursed from the Garden because of Original Sin, and that Jesus came and died to save people from that curse."

 

Sorry, but that's incorrect.

 

The central tenet is probably best summed up in John 3:16. It's why it's quoted so much.

 

However, it's impossible to accurately explain Christianity with just a sound byte. Like any other subject, it requires questioning, study, and research.

Originally Posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:

There are multitudes of lost people looking for something meaningful, and atheism  isn't doing it for them. 

I do find it interesting that the more presence athism has the bigger the muslim popluation in this country gets. 

____________________________

I respectfully disagree. Those multitudes of lost people you say are looking for something meaningful? It's not Atheism that isn't doing it for them, it's Christianity. Why would any decent, compassionate, human being want to be like Bill Gray & Gingee?

 

I find it interesting that the more presense of Christianity with the stone you have to wear on your back that makes the road almost impossible to walk, the more interesting Atheism looks.

 

Atheist & Christians could get along w/o all the controversy if each could realize you can't convince the other that each way is the right way. I find that it's the Christians treating the Atheist like they're stupid for believing the way they do, rather than vice versa. That in turn causes them to retaliate with the same. If you don't agree with them, fine, but at least don't put them down for it. They are adults that don't need a Christian with an attitude telling them they're doing it wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Originally Posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:

All you've proven is that atheists believe they are above God.  In the end, every person you drive away from Christianity is ripe pickings for Islam.  Once enough of them have been established in this country, we'll see how forthcoming you'll be with your thoughts.

____________________________________

 

You fear Muslims taking over our country, right? I do too. The same way I fear Christianity taken over our country. Unlike you, I fight against ALL religion having power in our government. What you fail to see is that when atheist fight for freedom from religion, we mean yours, theirs and everyone elses. Every time Chrisitians try and violate our Constitution and push their religion on ALL, they are setting a precedent for other religions to follow. IF Islam became the majority in this country would you still want prayer in schools, the teaching of Islamic scriptures in classes, judges issuing rulings based on sharia law? Probably not. So why don't you join atheist in at least fighting to keep religion and government separate?

Originally Posted by Mr. Hooberbloob:


You know not of what you speak.  I never said atheists were driving Christians to atheism.  There are multitudes of lost people looking for something meaningful, and atheism  isn't doing it for them.  Be it Christianity or islam they will continue to seek and Islam will be more than happy to have them.

 

I have zero confidence in atheist being able to stop islam in this country.  You guys talk and talk  as long as there is a safety net.  As soon as it's gone, lockjaw.  You never hear of an atheist group going into hostile areas to help the persecuted.  The freedoms to spew your hatred for Christianity will not exist in an America dominated by islam.

 

Christianity has deep roots in this country and has nothing to do with the growth of islam in this country.  I do find it interesting that the more presence athism has the bigger the muslim popluation in this country gets.  I'm not talking about muslim immigrants either.

_____________________________________

 

That atheism is turning people to islam is about as silly as saying skepticism causes people to believe in Big Foot. Makes no sense.

As for what atheist endure to speak out against religion in the country take a look at this:
http://practicaldoubt.com/2011...8/calls-to-violence/

 

Hi all,

 

Don't you just love it?  There are BILLIONS of Christian believers in the world -- and, our Forum Friend, Dark, picks the comments of EIGHT who are aggravated about the atheists' attempts to remove all things Christian from America, and speak out in error -- to be the symbol of all Christians.

 

Using that logic -- Charley Manson must the the symbol for ALL NON-BELIEVERS.   Wow, you guys must be a gruesome group!  Or, is your role model Shirley Maclaine, or Oprah?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Sylvester-Cat-2_TEXT

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Deep, my Friend,

 

You would not know the true core of Christianity -- if it bit you in the butt!   You have the right to speak about your Religion of Nothing, Atheism -- but, you speaking about Christianity -- is like Obama speaking of honoring life or honest politics.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

They Did Vote For Him

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Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

 

We now know that humans were not suddenly created, but evolved in degrees to the imperfect specimens we find ourselves today.  Issues of the soul, such as self-awareness, compassion, empathy, and the numinous can be found, to various degrees, in lesser animals.  We have simply refined those, and other, qualities to an abstract level.

 

DF

___________________________________________________________

 

Deep, you know nothing of the sort. You speak of theories as if they're facts. People have dug through yesterday's garbage dumps in order to discover where man came from. They've yet to learn because God is not in the garbage dump. And those who believe that we got here by mere accident are ludicrous. Believe what you want to believe. But the God I serve talks back and He's done things that defy the realm of coincidence. What you believe is that chance and time can defy all probabilities of logic. Yet you claim to be logical. I could never be so blind as an atheist even if I didn't want to beleive in God. I have to use reasoning, and I can't discard it as you do.

 

An atheist will point to a clearing in a desert and say, "Look, there is no such thing as trees." Keep believing in what you want to believe in. But my faith is not based on figments of my imagination as yours is. I have come to know the God you say does not exist. He is as real as you are.

 

An atheist will point to a clearing in a desert and say, "Look, there is no such thing as trees." Keep believing in what you want to believe in. But my faith is not based on figments of my imagination as yours is. I have come to know the God you say does not exist. He is as real as you are.

-------------------------------

 Using your "logic" a christian seeing a clearing "in the desert" would say, "there are trees there, we can't see them but they're there because someone told us they were and we believe them."  Oh, and  btw, trees exist.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Don't you just love it?  There are BILLIONS of Christian believers in the world -- and, our Forum Friend, Dark, picks the comments of EIGHT who are aggravated about the atheists' attempts to remove all things Christian from America, and speak out in error -- to be the symbol of all Christians.

 

Using that logic -- Charley Manson must the the symbol for ALL NON-BELIEVERS.   Wow, you guys must be a gruesome group!  Or, is your role model Shirley Maclaine, or Oprah?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

________________

Actually, Charlie Manson thinks God speaks directly to him, when he doesn't believe he is god himself.  You have another failed analogy, Bill.  Really, it is time to give them up.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi all,

 

Don't you just love it?  There are BILLIONS of Christian believers in the world -- and, our Forum Friend, Dark, picks the comments of EIGHT who are aggravated about the atheists' attempts to remove all things Christian from America, and speak out in error -- to be the symbol of all Christians.

 

Using that logic -- Charley Manson must the the symbol for ALL NON-BELIEVERS.   Wow, you guys must be a gruesome group!  Or, is your role model Shirley Maclaine, or Oprah?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Sylvester-Cat-2_TEXT

__________________________________

 

Aggravated? Speak out in error? Is that how you see those comments? My god Bill if you were that understanding and forgiving of people of differing faiths then you might be a likable person. These people want to see all atheist killed! And your reaction is that there is only 8 of them and they are just a wee be aggravated, so whats the big deal? If it were only 8 that would still be too many.

 

I find it strange that when ever a Christian is exposed to information and proof such as this that they always say "these are not REAL Christians" or "They don't represent ALL Christians" Yet go on to defend them for their actions. You seem to think they were pushed to make such comments just because they were not allowed to impose their beliefs on everyone.

 

I can fill this thread up with death threats made to atheist by Chrisitans and other religious people. Do you need more to understand what we atheist have to face and deal with from all these wonderful religious people?

 

Try this Bill....run these two searches through google and see what you come up with.

 

Atheist death threats against Christians

fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...amp;client=firefox-a

 

 Christian death threats against atheist

fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...amp;client=firefox-a

Yer not gonna teach ol' BeeGie anything, DA....For one, he's older than dirt....For two, you can't convince a sheep that it doesn't need to be led.  All ya can do is point out the futility of it so that others may see it and stop lockstepping long enough to think for themselves. Either way, like an addict or a drunk, it's gotta be their choice to make.

 

/shrug

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Chick,

 

Yes, atheist will declare, many of them very loudly, that there is not God. 

 

Also, if you go to any prison, you will find 90% of the prisoners there will loudly declare that they are innocent of all charges.

 

It is rather like the old maxim, "You will find that 99 out of 100 teen boys will admit that they do.  The other one lies about it!"

 

If an atheist admits there is a God -- then, he/she has to explain why they do not follow His moral teachings.   By denying there is a God -- they save themselves that burden.  They are that 1 out 100 boys!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hell-Froze-Over_TEXT

 

Originally Posted by dilligaff:

I read some where that 90% of convicted felons claim to be Christians

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

Atheists Supply Less Than 1% Of Prison Populations
--------------------------------------------------

It's suprising how many people say to me, "You're an Atheist? You must
have no conscience about commiting crime then." Nothing could be further
from the truth. In fact, if we examine the population of our prisons, we
see a very different picture:

In "The New Criminology", Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith say that two
generations of statisticians found that the ratio of convicts without
religious training is about 1/10 of 1%. W. T. Root, professor of
psychology at the Univ. of Pittsburgh, examined 1,916 prisoners and said
"Indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character," adding
that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are absent from
penitentiariers or nearly so.

During 10 years in Sing-Sing, those executed for murder were 65% Catholics,
26% Protestants, 6% Hebrew, 2% Pagan, and less than 1/3 of 1% non-religious.

Steiner and Swancara surveyed Canadian prisons and found 1,294 Catholics,
435 Anglicans, 241 Methodists, 135 Baptists, and 1 Unitarian.

Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates. In "Who's Who"
91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and
knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of
superstition and ignorance."

Surveyed Massachusetts reformatories found every inmate religious, carefully
herded by chaplins.

In Joliet, there were 2,888 Catholics, 1,020 Baptists, 617 Methodists and
0 non-religious.

Michigan had 82,000 Baptists and 83,000 Jews in their state population.
But in the prisons, there were 22 times as many Baptists as Jews, and 18 times
as many Methodists as Jews. In Sing-Sing, there were 1,553 total inmates with
855 of them Catholics (over half), 518 Protestants, 177 Jews and 8 non-
religious. There's a very interesting qualified statistic.

Steiner first surveyed 27 states, and found 19,400 Christians, 5,000 with
no preference, and only 3 Agnostics (one each in Connecticut, New Hampshire,
and Illinois). A later, more complete survey found 60,605 Christians, 5,000
Jews, 131 Pagans, 4,000 no preference, and only 3 Agnostics.

In one 29-state survey, Steiner found 15 unbelievers, Spirtualists,
Theosophists, Deists, Pantheists and 1 Agnostic among nearly 83,000 inmates.
Calling all 15 "anti-christians" made it one half person to each state.
Elmira reformatory overshadowed all, with nearly 31,000 inmates, including
15,694 Catholics (half), and 10,968 Protestants, 4,000 Jews, 325 refusing
to answer, and 0 unbelievers.

In the East, over 64% of inmates are Catholics. In the national prison
population they average 50%. A national census found Catholics 15%. They
count from the diaper up. Hardly 12% are old enough to commit a crime.
Half of these are women. That leaves an adult Catholic population of 6%
supplying 50% of the prison population.

Liverpool, England produces three percent as many young criminals as
Birmingham, a larger city, 28% coming from Catholic schools.

What does this tell you about parochial school systems or claims that religion
is the guardian of morals?

* Fifty-two percent of people belong to no church, yet live clean lives and *
* supply less than 1% of the total criminal population. So much for *
* religious indoctrination


 

 

 

http://current.com/community/9...tians-make-up-75.htm

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

An atheist will point to a clearing in a desert and say, "Look, there is no such thing as trees." Keep believing in what you want to believe in. But my faith is not based on figments of my imagination as yours is. I have come to know the God you say does not exist. He is as real as you are.

-------------------------------

 Using your "logic" a christian seeing a clearing "in the desert" would say, "there are trees there, we can't see them but they're there because someone told us they were and we believe them."  Oh, and  btw, trees exist.

_________________________________________________

 

I can't see you, but you're there. I have plenty of evidence that you're there. Since I have set my heart on knowing and following Christ, God has given me much greater evidence than I had in the beginning that He is there. He has spoken to me and answered my prayers and intervened in my life as only He can. Knowing what I've seen and heard, I would be a fool to say God wasn't there.

 

I don't see you, but you're there. I know you're there because when I post, you post in return. I don't see the air, but it is there. I see it inflate the baloon and the tires, and I breathe it in and out and know that without it I cannot live. Now where is your logic going to take you if something is not there simply because you can't see it? Would you stop breathing because you don't see the air? God is the source of life. You could look at yourself and know that God must exist. But you refuse to accept that reality. Why? Is it because you haven't seen Him? Don't hold your breath just because you don't see the air. It is there. And don't refuse to believe in God just because you can't see Him. I can assure you that He is there.

 

From the book of Matthew:

 

38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”

39 He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

I've been saying for a long time that you will never see "proof" that God exists. The only "proof" *I* need is not a sign, not scientific proof, not even to hear His voice. The proof I have is in my heart, placed there by God's Holy Spirit.

I can't see you, but you're there. I have plenty of evidence that you're there. Since I have set my heart on knowing and following Christ, God has given me much greater evidence than I had in the beginning that He is there. He has spoken to me and answered my prayers and intervened in my life as only He can. Knowing what I've seen and heard, I would be a fool to say God wasn't there.

 

I don't see you, but you're there. I know you're there because when I post, you post in return. I don't see the air, but it is there. I see it inflate the baloon and the tires, and I breathe it in and out and know that without it I cannot live. Now where is your logic going to take you if something is not there simply because you can't see it? Would you stop breathing because you don't see the air? God is the source of life. You could look at yourself and know that God must exist. But you refuse to accept that reality. Why? Is it because you haven't seen Him? Don't hold your breath just because you don't see the air. It is there. And don't refuse to believe in God just because you can't see Him. I can assure you that He is there.

------------------------------

 

Not seeing me is not quite the same as a mythical being that no one has ever seen. On occasion you most certainly can see the air.  I don't see any reason at all to think there's a god when I see myself or others, or anything else on this earth. I don't "refuse" to accept your god, I just know he doesn't exist. There is a difference.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I can't see you, but you're there. I have plenty of evidence that you're there. Since I have set my heart on knowing and following Christ, God has given me much greater evidence than I had in the beginning that He is there. He has spoken to me and answered my prayers and intervened in my life as only He can. Knowing what I've seen and heard, I would be a fool to say God wasn't there.

 

I don't see you, but you're there. I know you're there because when I post, you post in return. I don't see the air, but it is there. I see it inflate the baloon and the tires, and I breathe it in and out and know that without it I cannot live. Now where is your logic going to take you if something is not there simply because you can't see it? Would you stop breathing because you don't see the air? God is the source of life. You could look at yourself and know that God must exist. But you refuse to accept that reality. Why? Is it because you haven't seen Him? Don't hold your breath just because you don't see the air. It is there. And don't refuse to believe in God just because you can't see Him. I can assure you that He is there.

------------------------------

 

Not seeing me is not quite the same as a mythical being that no one has ever seen. On occasion you most certainly can see the air.  I don't see any reason at all to think there's a god when I see myself or others, or anything else on this earth. I don't "refuse" to accept your god, I just know he doesn't exist. There is a difference.

___________________________________________________________

 

The only difference is that you are looking in the desert for the forest.

 

Originally Posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

The central tenet of Christianity is that people are cursed from the Garden because of Original Sin, and that Jesus came and died to save people from that curse.

 

It's all booshwah.

 

First, one who calls himself a Christian must believe the above premise.  It is, according to Paul of Tarsus, the essential syllogism of the faith.  If one does not believe it, one is simply not a Christian.

 

A Christian cannot take it as a metaphor, nor in any symbolic fashion.  It must be believed at face value, according to the New Testament.

 

We now know that humans were not suddenly created, but evolved in degrees to the imperfect specimens we find ourselves today.  Issues of the soul, such as self-awareness, compassion, empathy, and the numinous can be found, to various degrees, in lesser animals.  We have simply refined those, and other, qualities to an abstract level.

 

We know that there were no Adam and Eve, per se.  We know that the Genesis account of Creation is not correct.  We now have the morality to understand that a curse on all of humankind is absurd for several reasons.

 

In other words, we know that the critical premise of Christianity is not only ridiculous, but wicked.  We are not born in sin, we are natural animals like all the other ones.  We are not cursed by a capricious, juvenile god.  Those who say we are are only trying to degrade our basic human dignity, so that they might suggest a false dignity instead.  Only fools listen to them now.

 

The time has come to reject this evil and corrosive notion, and to accept that we are evolved animals capable of realizing ourselves to a pretty good degree.  More truth, beauty, happiness, and wisdom will come to us when we do.  Now is the time.

 

DF

Where and how do you think life and matter came to exist?

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