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Couple Ordered to Stop Bible Study

N ngt2293Hall of Famer
Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit
Thursday, May 28, 2009


Pastor David Jones and his wife Mary have been told that they cannot invite friends to their San Diego, Calif. home for a bible study — unless they are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to San Diego County.

"On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.

"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said.

A few days later, the couple received a written warning that cited "unlawful use of land," ordering them to either "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit," the couple's attorney Dean Broyles told San Diego news station 10News.

But the major use permit could cost the Jones' thousands of dollars just to have a few friends over.

For David and Mary Jones, it's about more than a question of money.

"The government may not prohibit the free exercise of religion," Broyles told FOX News. "I believe that our Founding Fathers would roll over in their grave if they saw that here in the year 2009, a pastor and his wife are being told that they cannot hold a simple bible study in their own home."

"The implications are great because it’s not only us that’s involved," Mary Jones said. "There are thousands and thousands of bible studies that are held all across the country. What we’re interested in is setting a precedent here — before it goes any further — and that we have it settled for the future."

The couple is planning to dispute the county's order this week.

If San Diego County refuses to allow the pastor and his wife to continue gathering without acquiring a permit, they will consider a lawsuit in federal court.
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SardonicPoetSardonicPoetHall of Famer
A Major Use Permit?

Those things require geographical surveys, environmental impact studies, and are intended for the the complete reshaping of a piece of land.

How can that even apply to a piece of land that has been zoned residential?

There would be MORE of a case for requiring a Major Use Permit if they HAD created a parking lot out of their front yard than if the people parked in the street.

Someone's job is in hot water.
C CookeyPost Master
Watch Ms, California interview the "accused" here:
Link


IF we have all the facts, I agree this is an egregious assault on our freedoms. IF.

On the other hand, I rather suspect there is more to the story. Perhaps these people have these meetings every week and 20, 30, 40 people show up. I can certainly foresee some sort of county ordinance that prohibits regular church gatherings of that size outside of a church and in a residential neighborhood.


I suspect all of us would have a problem with a neighbor who has a huge gathering every Wednesday night.

I simply can't believe the government would be that stupid it it were just a regular prayer meeting.
meanasasnakemeanasasnakeOld Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by flotown79:
Lately on this forum all I see is how Dems are for taking away freedoms and rights, but in San Diego the Mayor, county DA, and city attorney are all Repubs.

While this is disturbing, I am just glad some will see that Repubs don't mind taking away some freedoms either. Especially when there is money to be made.



Excellent point. Actually many Republicans are just as eager to limit personal liberties as anyone could be. Unfortunately the Libertarian wing of the party is not all that powerful.
NashBamaNashBamaOld Faithful
Freedom of religion and freedom to peacefully assemble are both protected rights under the 1st amendment.

Some counties and neighborhood associations do have restrictions on how many guests someone can have and how often because of traffic and safety concerns. In public buildings, fire codes limit how many people can be inside a space, not sure if that applies to private residences.

This sounds like the same situation as with the company telling a woman to take down her American flag. Someone in the neighborhood probably complained and the government's solution was to end it. Not smart on their part.
LMMLMMOld Faithful
A good point made here.

"If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" Broyles asked.

If 15 is a major use item, forget reunions.
Its stupid and I'm sure that eventually we will find out WHO complained and the real reason why.
C CookeyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by interventor1:
Saw the minister on CN. He stated at most there were five cars at the meeeting and most of the driveway is his private land.


Then that is what we have militias for.

I don't know why I find it so hard to believe the government would do something so stupid so my BS meter is jumping pretty wildly on this story.

I mean, the government wouldn't do something stupid, would it? Wink
M mekirk2Hall of Famer
Heres the link to the counties response:

Link

It looks like the facts were straight. Someone complained about too many cars being parked in the cul de sac.

"'Obviously, I wasn't there, so I can't tell you exactly what was said. However, what our officer was trying to do is establish what the use is so that we know what regulations to actually utilize,' explained Chandra Wallar of the county's land use and environment group.

Wallar said it's the officer’s job to determine what kind of event is hosted at Jones’ house to decide what part of county code the event falls under.

'The Bible studies are one that's probably in a very gray area,' Waller said."

Very grey area? I thought the constitution was pretty black and white. Not alot to be interpreted about freedom of religion.

This should have been addressed as too many cars parked on the public right of way. They should not have been told that the meeting could not be held, but that some folks were going to have to car pool.

Someone seriously stepped in it here and I would expect that an apology will be forthcoming.

Kirk
C CookeyPost Master
Mekirk,

One of the key point here was, "Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars."

Someone filed a complaint.

The neighbors certainly have a right to a peaceful neighborhood. ANY meeting that gets so large that it regularly blocks traffic or effects the neighbors in ANY adverse way is reason to petition the city to do something about it.

Just because the crowd is religions in nature doesn't mean the government has to turn a blind eye and let the crown trample the rights of neighbors to have a peaceful neighborhood.

However, it sounds like the city employee who asked the initial questions was perhaps a bit too irreverent in his line of questioning. That was a big no-no for a government official.
M mekirk2Hall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Ironic Pentameter:
Mekirk,

One of the key point here was, "Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars."

Someone filed a complaint.

The neighbors certainly have a right to a peaceful neighborhood. ANY meeting that gets so large that it regularly blocks traffic or effects the neighbors in ANY adverse way is reason to petition the city to do something about it.

Just because the crowd is religions in nature doesn't mean the government has to turn a blind eye and let the crown trample the rights of neighbors to have a peaceful neighborhood.

However, it sounds like the city employee who asked the initial questions was perhaps a bit too irreverent in his line of questioning. That was a big no-no for a government official.


Were you arguing against my statement or agreeing with it? It sounded like you were arguing with it but you agreed with everything I said, so I am a bit confused. You did state that the neighbors had a right to a peaceful neighborhood, which I didn't address anywhere because it was not mentioned in the article. No one stated that the bible study was not quiet and peaceful. This wasn't a bunch a drunk teenagers. The only issue was the parking, and that was because someones car was hit by a guest (that was in one of the articles as the reason why this entire thing started.)

The city should have addressed it from a parking situation, not an event situation. It does not matter if the event I have in my house is to talk about how much I hate the local city government, the city has no right to tell me I can't have guests over to my home. Thats what they did to this couple in SD. They cited them for the gathering, not the parking situation.

They did not address the issue of parking, they interfered with this couples religious freedom by attempting to stop the meetings instead of dealing with the parking. Like I said, someone stepped in it.

Sit back and see what happens in court. The couple have already filed to have the city blocked from interfering with their right to congregate.

Kirk
G geddon97Old Faithful
quote:
Originally posted by Ironic Pentameter:
Mekirk,

One of the key point here was, "Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars."

Someone filed a complaint.

The neighbors certainly have a right to a peaceful neighborhood. ANY meeting that gets so large that it regularly blocks traffic or effects the neighbors in ANY adverse way is reason to petition the city to do something about it.

Just because the crowd is religions in nature doesn't mean the government has to turn a blind eye and let the crown trample the rights of neighbors to have a peaceful neighborhood.

However, it sounds like the city employee who asked the initial questions was perhaps a bit too irreverent in his line of questioning. That was a big no-no for a government official.

If religion has no bearing in the case then why did the city official asked those pointed questions?All they would have to do is say there are too many cars parked in the street you need to have them removed.Why asked if they had prayer.Or if they said amen.those questions were totally out of line.
KK Kane Kounty KenEverybody Knows My Name
quote:
Originally posted by geddon97:
quote:
Originally posted by Ironic Pentameter:
Mekirk,

One of the key point here was, "Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars."

Someone filed a complaint.

The neighbors certainly have a right to a peaceful neighborhood. ANY meeting that gets so large that it regularly blocks traffic or effects the neighbors in ANY adverse way is reason to petition the city to do something about it.

Just because the crowd is religions in nature doesn't mean the government has to turn a blind eye and let the crown trample the rights of neighbors to have a peaceful neighborhood.

However, it sounds like the city employee who asked the initial questions was perhaps a bit too irreverent in his line of questioning. That was a big no-no for a government official.

If religion has no bearing in the case then why did the city official asked those pointed questions?All they would have to do is say there are too many cars parked in the street you need to have them removed.Why asked if they had prayer.Or if they said amen.those questions were totally out of line.




Because the charge was for 'religious Assembly in violation of the county code'

It appears the Pastor didn't think it was a religious assembly.

From the article...

""On Good Friday we had an employee from San Diego County come to our house, and inform us that the bible study that we were having was a religious assembly, and in violation of the code in the county." David Jones told FOX News.

"We told them this is not really a religious assembly — this is just a bible study with friends. We have a meal, we pray, that was all," Jones said."
WT William TurnerHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by crimsontide2186:
People have a right to study myths if they want to as long as they are not screwing with anyone else's rights or freedoms. I wish the Federal Government / local governments wouldn't even recognize religions.


I guess my school teachers and text books were lying to me. I always believed this country was founded on Christian religious principles with the right to gather and worship as we see fit. I welcome the day when some stupid little politician comes through my door and tells me I cannot have Bible study in my home.

This country will have some type of organized religion although it will not be the one everyone wants and it will most definitely, not be free.
TI The IncriminatorPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by Ironic Pentameter:
Mekirk,

One of the key point here was, "Last month, someone filed a complaint about the number of cars."

Someone filed a complaint.

The neighbors certainly have a right to a peaceful neighborhood. ANY meeting that gets so large that it regularly blocks traffic or effects the neighbors in ANY adverse way is reason to petition the city to do something about it.

Just because the crowd is religions in nature doesn't mean the government has to turn a blind eye and let the crown trample the rights of neighbors to have a peaceful neighborhood.

However, it sounds like the city employee who asked the initial questions was perhaps a bit too irreverent in his line of questioning. That was a big no-no for a government official.



Yeah those wild Bible studies can get completely out of hand. Smiler
C crimsontide2186Small Talker
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
quote:
Originally posted by crimsontide2186:
People have a right to study myths if they want to as long as they are not screwing with anyone else's rights or freedoms. I wish the Federal Government / local governments wouldn't even recognize religions.


I guess my school teachers and text books were lying to me. I always believed this country was founded on Christian religious principles with the right to gather and worship as we see fit. I welcome the day when some stupid little politician comes through my door and tells me I cannot have Bible study in my home.

This country will have some type of organized religion although it will not be the one everyone wants and it will most definitely, not be free.


Well, that's ok. Maybe, they will start forcing children to read science books and study math. Maybe, that can be our new forced religion. I'm ok with that. I don't know why everyone is so fearful of the government, as long as they do the things that I want them to do we will be ok. That would be a good change of pace from a preacher brainwashing kids into thinking that talking snakes are real. As far as you retaliating against the government when they come to take your bible away, in my America we will take your guns away first.
C CookeyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
I guess my school teachers and text books were lying to me. I always believed this country was founded on Christian religious principles


Either you didn't pay attention or your books were written by fundamentalist nutjobs.

This country was NOT founded on Christian principals. It was founded on principals of religious freedom. That means the freedom to worship (or NOT worship in my case) whatever deity you choose.
WT William TurnerHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Ironic Pentameter:
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
I guess my school teachers and text books were lying to me. I always believed this country was founded on Christian religious principles


Either you didn't pay attention or your books were written by fundamentalist nutjobs.

This country was NOT founded on Christian principals. It was founded on principals of religious freedom. That means the freedom to worship (or NOT worship in my case) whatever deity you choose.


I could care less if you worship or not but sounds like you have a problem with folks who do. Why are our leaders sworn in on the Bible? Why not use a science book? I do not try to force my beliefs on anyone however; I do take extreme offence to anyone trying to deprive me of my freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.
W WishuponastarSmall Talker
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
quote:
Originally posted by Ironic Pentameter:
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
I guess my school teachers and text books were lying to me. I always believed this country was founded on Christian religious principles


Either you didn't pay attention or your books were written by fundamentalist nutjobs.

This country was NOT founded on Christian principals. It was founded on principals of religious freedom. That means the freedom to worship (or NOT worship in my case) whatever deity you choose.


I could care less if you worship or not but sounds like you have a problem with folks who do. Why are our leaders sworn in on the Bible? Why not use a science book? I do not try to force my beliefs on anyone however; I do take extreme offence to anyone trying to deprive me of my freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.


Same reaction here Smiler
C CookeyPost Master
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
I could care less if you worship or not but sounds like you have a problem with folks who do. Why are our leaders sworn in on the Bible?


Because if they don't they will be run out of town by primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches.

I have been compelled to swear upon a bible many times. I hated it every time and am a little disappointed that I don't hold my ground and refuse but that is easier said than done.

quote:
Why not use a science book?


Because that would be silly. Why not simply say, "Under penalty of law, I swear the following . . ."

quote:
I do not try to force my beliefs on anyone however; I do take extreme offence to anyone trying to deprive me of my freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.


As do I.

But when someone states the lie that this country was founded on "Christian principals" they should understand that is a stupid statement.
One of the cornerstones of our democracy was religion freedom, not "Christian principals."
WT William TurnerHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
I could care less if you worship or not but sounds like you have a problem with folks who do. Why are our leaders sworn in on the Bible?


Because if they don't they will be run out of town by primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches.

I have been compelled to swear upon a bible many times. I hated it every time and am a little disappointed that I don't hold my ground and refuse but that is easier said than done.

quote:
Why not use a science book?


Because that would be silly. Why not simply say, "Under penalty of law, I swear the following . . ."

quote:
I do not try to force my beliefs on anyone however; I do take extreme offence to anyone trying to deprive me of my freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.


As do I.

But when someone states the lie that this country was founded on "Christian principals" they should understand that is a stupid statement.
One of the cornerstones of our democracy was religion freedom, not "Christian principals."


So you're saying Christian principles had no influence on the establishment of our country?
Why is "In God We Trust" on our money and why does every building in Washington DC have some reference to God? Call it what you may, I call it Religious Principles.

By the way, why would you not stand on your principles and refuse to take an oath on the Bible? I think it would be hypocritical to do otherwise. I know the thoughts of Christian "primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches" may be scary but thats just in the movies.
C crimsontide2186Small Talker
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
By the way, why would you not stand on your principles and refuse to take an oath on the Bible? I think it would be hypocritical to do otherwise. I know the thoughts of Christian "primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches" may be scary but thats just in the movies.


I would take an oath on a bible. Then I could lie and not face any consequence. Better than having to sign something that would be leagally binding.
WT William TurnerHall of Famer
quote:
Originally posted by crimsontide2186:
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
By the way, why would you not stand on your principles and refuse to take an oath on the Bible? I think it would be hypocritical to do otherwise. I know the thoughts of Christian "primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches" may be scary but thats just in the movies.


I would take an oath on a bible. Then I could lie and not face any consequence. Better than having to sign something that would be leagally binding.


That will be between you and God however; should you end up like that piece of crap Blagojevich; just pray to whatever you pray to that I'm not on your jury.
C crimsontide2186Small Talker
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
quote:
Originally posted by crimsontide2186:
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
By the way, why would you not stand on your principles and refuse to take an oath on the Bible? I think it would be hypocritical to do otherwise. I know the thoughts of Christian "primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches" may be scary but thats just in the movies.


I would take an oath on a bible. Then I could lie and not face any consequence. Better than having to sign something that would be leagally binding.


That will be between you and God however; should you end up like that piece of crap Blagojevich; just pray to whatever you pray to that I'm not on your jury.


I'd want you on my jury. If you believe some of the religious myths that you do, my lawyer could get you to believe anything. After all, my lawyer is real.
KK Kane Kounty KenEverybody Knows My Name
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
quote:
Originally posted by Cookey:
quote:
Originally posted by William Turner:
I could care less if you worship or not but sounds like you have a problem with folks who do. Why are our leaders sworn in on the Bible?


Because if they don't they will be run out of town by primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches.

I have been compelled to swear upon a bible many times. I hated it every time and am a little disappointed that I don't hold my ground and refuse but that is easier said than done.

quote:
Why not use a science book?


Because that would be silly. Why not simply say, "Under penalty of law, I swear the following . . ."

quote:
I do not try to force my beliefs on anyone however; I do take extreme offence to anyone trying to deprive me of my freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.


As do I.

But when someone states the lie that this country was founded on "Christian principals" they should understand that is a stupid statement.
One of the cornerstones of our democracy was religion freedom, not "Christian principals."


So you're saying Christian principles had no influence on the establishment of our country?
Why is "In God We Trust" on our money and why does every building in Washington DC have some reference to God? Call it what you may, I call it Religious Principles.

By the way, why would you not stand on your principles and refuse to take an oath on the Bible? I think it would be hypocritical to do otherwise. I know the thoughts of Christian "primitive people bearing pitchforks and torches" may be scary but thats just in the movies.



All these politicians we have now...took an oath on a bible...I hope you are not aligning yourself with these crooks.

And the crusades were not fiction.
HA Harry AzhoSmall Talker
quote:
Originally posted by daybeggar:
I had to stop reading the Bible...too much sex and violence in it, and all that begatting going on...it embarassed me.


You better watch your mouth! You don't have a right to be talking about my God. He is more powerful than you know. You might just find your soul in hell one day. I can't say for sure because i don't judge, but you need to read the bible.
D daybeggarHall of Famer
Harry, Harry, Harry...I said I was reading your book but I was sooooooo offended with all the sex and violence and more sex and then more sex, and then more violence. It certainly is not a book I would want an impressionable young person to be exposed to. Does your God approve of all that sex and violence? Oh, and Harry, I don't watch what I say...I just watch what I think. I am impressed with your belief that you have a handle on Truth!
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