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Racism And Social Darwinism

HARUN YAHYA



"The greatest influence in the sudden development of racism in the 19th century Europe was the replacement of the Christian belief that "God created all people equal" by "Darwinism". By suggesting that man had evolved from more primitive creatures, and that some races had evolved further than others, it provided racism with a scientific mask.

In short, Darwin is the father of racism. His theory was taken up and commented on by such 'official' founders of racism as Arthur Gobineau and Houston Stewart Chamberlain, and the racist ideology which emerged was then put into practice by the Nazis and other fascists. James Joll, who spent long years as a professor of history at universities such as Oxford, Stanford, and Harvard, explained the relationship between Darwinism and racism in his book Europe Since 1870, which is still taught as a textbook in universities:"

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As y'all know, I've ignored rram. His juvenile attitude is simply untakeable.


But the TD forum is designed such that original thread posts are immune from ignoring.

For this reason, I notice that he has invoked the personage of Harun Yahya.

Harun Yahya is the epitome of Creationist imbecility. Rich imbecility, to be sure, but an idiot nonetheless. There ain't no justice.

Please watch these videos, starting with this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxGDXSJZfc

Yahya is beneath consideration among those of normal intelligence. So is anyone who would present him as any sort of authority.
Of course Darwin was the father of racism.

Feelings among races before Darwin’s time was simply territorial.

Darwin allowed that , the black race for instance were inferior to Caucasians .

Darwin was considered as the authority that this was true.

I remember being influenced myself by the pictures in my school books depicting the black races as more ape like than human.

Yes I will admit as a youngster my feelings of the black race as inferior was due to the teachings of Darwin.

Thank God I was taught better and learned , at Mars Hill, Dawkins was simply the old fool he appeared to be regarding the subject of racism.

I heard Marshall Keeble speak to many times as a youth at Mars Hill and other places to feel he was other than genius.
quote:
Originally posted by rramlimnn:
Of course Darwin was the father of racism.

Feelings among races before Darwin’s time was simply territorial.



Now wait just a minute Rram....are you trying to say that the slaves here in America were not being discriminated against for their race BEFORE Darwin came along?

Racism was and had been well entrenched in society long before Darwin was ever born.



quote:
"I remember being influenced myself by the pictures in my school books depicting the black races as more ape like than human.

Yes I will admit as a youngster my feelings of the black race as inferior was due to the teachings of Darwin."


So it had nothing to do with the racist attitude you grew up in in the south? I will freely admit that I grew up believing that blacks were inferior to whites and I knew very little about Darwin, until I was a teen. My racism came from living in a time and place where this kind of thinking was the norm.

I am also very happy that I grew and matured with the times and as time went on we all come to realize how wrong we had been. (well the intelligent among humans did) Their is still racism and the majority of it is in the uneducated people who probably know very little of Darwins theory and more than likely don't believe in evolution either.

The racists idiots that I know to still exist in this area are "died in the wool" (as you like to say) christians. The church of christ that I was brought up in will still not marry interracial couples. They also do not believe in evolution. So....explain that?
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by rramlimnn:
Of course Darwin was the father of racism.

Feelings among races before Darwin’s time was simply territorial.



Now wait just a minute Rram....are you trying to say that the slaves here in America were not being discriminated against for their race BEFORE Darwin came along?

Racism was and had been well entrenched in society long before Darwin was ever born.
They were slaves . Lol not victims if racism. Why were the Jews slaves to the rock stackers? Not racism they needed labor.


quote:
"I remember being influenced myself by the pictures in my school books depicting the black races as more ape like than human.

Yes I will admit as a youngster my feelings of the black race as inferior was due to the teachings of Darwin."


So it had nothing to do with the racist attitude you grew up in in the south? I will freely admit that I grew up believing that blacks were inferior to whites and I knew very little about Darwin, until I was a teen. My racism came from living in a time and place where this kind of thinking was the norm.
Jank, even though you didn’t read Darwin yours and my racism was a direct influence of Darwin’s ignorance.
I am also very happy that I grew and matured with the times and as time went on we all come to realize how wrong we had been. (well the intelligent among humans did) Their is still racism and the majority of it is in the uneducated people who probably know very little of Darwins theory and more than likely don't believe in evolution either.

The racists idiots that I know to still exist in this area are "died in the wool" (as you like to say) christians. The church of christ that I was brought up in will still not marry interracial couples. They also do not believe in evolution. So....explain that

Simple answer: the coc was and is wrong on that position.?
Rram,

I just can't believe that you honestly feel this way.

So slave owners that thought of and treated their slaves as livestock, even breeding them as such were not racist?

There were bondsmen and women that were white and not treated the same way as the black slaves. If it were only about a work force then the treatment would have been equal to say the least.


I agree that this particular COC is wrong, but the point is that they are not believers in evolution but yet they are racist.

Darwin was born when...early 1800's? So are going to honestly say that racism did not exist until the mid to late 1800's?
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Rram,

I just can't believe that you honestly feel this way.

So slave owners that thought of and treated their slaves as livestock, even breeding them as such were not racist?

There were bondsmen and women that were white and not treated the same way as the black slaves. If it were only about a work force then the treatment would have been equal to say the least.


I agree that this particular COC is wrong, but the point is that they are not believers in evolution but yet they are racist.

Darwin was born when...early 1800's? So are going to honestly say that racism did not exist until the mid to late 1800's?


Jank

You are sensationalizing to make a point which will not lead us to the truth. Big Grin

Breeding of slaves was not the intent within time constraints or within the knowledge of plantation owners.

Why do you think plantation owners forbid slaves to be educated?

Do you think the black slaves were ignorant in their native land?

They were intelligent people when they arrived as slaves.

Slave owners kept them uneducated for a reason. It is apparent slave owners feared the educated slave and for good reason.

They were certainly not racist; they were slave owners. There is a difference.

Enter Darwin a scientist with prestige on a boat.

His erroneous evaluation of what he saw as subculture and more animal than human people definitely led to racism and has nearly destroyed the whole world.

Yes Darwin is the father of racism he was no smarter on human intelligence than the reader worldwide that waited for his next finding to be published.

Yes in his published works he left no doubt in any mind that the black races were animal like and a sub culture.

We are paying dearly for his mistake. Mad

Look at ancient history. Slave owners feared the intelligence of the enslaved.
Rramlimnn and Jankinonya'

I agree with y'all's proposition that Darwin contributed to racism. Even the godless philosopher, Nietzsche, objected to Darwin on this point. They were contemporaries. Nietzsche remained LaMarkian.

It seems Darwinism when taken at a social level,(not necessarily biological level)
has lead to racial extremism.
Midacts,

Not sure what I said that made you think I believe that Darwin contributed to racism. Read the link I posted and do some research of your own and you will find that this premise is perpetuated by creationist who are just trying to discredit Darwin any way they can.

How can a theory based on the idea that we all share a common ancestor, be held up as the example of racism? Makes absolutely no sense at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Midacts,

Not sure what I said that made you think I believe that Darwin contributed to racism. Read the link I posted and do some research of your own and you will find that this premise is perpetuated by creationist who are just trying to discredit Darwin any way they can.

How can a theory based on the idea that we all share a common ancestor, be held up as the example of racism? Makes absolutely no sense at all.


Sorry, Jankinonya, I've re-read now.

We do have the testimony of history, do we not? The period around and after Darwin (1860
forward) shows an uptick in "ethnic cleansing," maybe not "racism," but those are just words.
quote:
this premise is perpetuated by creationist who are just trying to discredit Darwin any way they can.



Jank dear

The truth is exactly that which we seek.

You are exactly correct. Creationist do perpetuate the premise that Darwin was a racist.

His position in clear statements cannot be denied. He believed the Caucasian race to be superior to other races. For you to deny this I’m gonna have to call a Bro. Bill.

You use denial too often to make your point.

You claim to have reached the truth for yourself that there is no God yet you destroy your own reason with the fear Darwin could be wrong. The blind faith of which you accuse others seems to be present in your beliefs.

Billy Bob intentionally lies daily to back up his hate for believers.

I don’t think that would look good on you.

I think this is definitely a case where evil companionship can corrupt good morals.

If you can show me that billy bob is anything but a hater of Christians, I want to see the evidence.
Rram,

You show me where Darwin says that whites are a superior race. Of everything I have read he has not taken that stance. He did believe that some races were evolved farther than others, which was true. That was just an observation not a judgment made to make white people appear superior. I am sure that there have been many idiots over the years that have used Darwins Theory to back up their hate for other races. If that is what you want me to say then you can have it. Humans will always find a way to justify their beliefs. I do, you do, we all do. Some people can twist and turn a thing until it looks nothing like its original form but still hold it up to the light and say "see I told you thats what it was."

Does this sound like a racist to you.

Now when naturalists observe a close agreement in numerous small details of habits, tastes, and dispositions between two or more domestic races, or between nearly-allied natural forms, they use this fact as an argument that they are descended from a common progenitor who was thus endowed; and consequently that all should be classed under the same species. The same argument may be applied with much force to the races of man.

As it is improbable that the numerous and unimportant points of resemblance between the several races of man in bodily structure and mental faculties (I do not here refer to similar customs) should all have been independently acquired, they must have been inherited from progenitors who had these same characters.
- The Descent of Man; Charles Darwin; 1871




If you honestly think that I hang my non belief of gods on Darwin alone then you have not been paying attention.

As for BJBG ( I think that is who you are calling Billy Bob) what does he have to do with any of this?

He has never lied to me. Not that I have seen on here. Actually I havn't seen him lie to anyone on this forum.

I think it is a lie to say he hates christians. He seems to think very highly of VP and thenagel.

Rram, I do not believe in god. I know you have a hard time with that, but its just a fact you are going to have to reconcile some way on your own.


I will tell you something that I haven't wanted to say due to the fact that I like you and didn't want to call you out, but here goes. I think it is YOU who is not secure in what you believe and so you keep trying to put that on me or BJBG so that we can somehow help you justify your sliding belief in god. You want us to convince you so you keep poking and prodding us to give you the answers you need.

If that is not correct then there is only one other alternative....you really are here to try and save souls Eeker
Haaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

Oh, dear, oh, dear... Hasn't the old codger gotten over me yet?

Seems he's lying about me behind my back. As you know, I had to put him on "Ignore" some weeks back. But I see his quotes and utterings in others' posts.

I wish him good health and a long life, so that me may demonstrate his true character over and over and over until everyone knows what sort of poltroon would so such a thing.


Hahahahahahahaha! He will never learn that his behavior is a reflection on him more so than me. And a dam poor reflection it is. Not inaccurate, just poor.
Jank,

I don’t know what you and bjbg have done that causes you to abandon self control but it must have been fun.

I like you too and I even like that ole coot. But he lies constantly about something he knows absolutely zip about. God.

You seem enamored somehow with his ignorance about God.

Be there no question. I’m not trying to save your souls. I am convinced there’s nothing looking out your eye houls. Don’t accuse me of trying to save your soul.

You don’t have one. Ok?

Jank he called me an old codger. On my behalf I want you to punish him.

And I hope he lives to be 969 years constantly under the reckoning microscope of truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Ok, thats it...I have HAD it with you....

Me and you in the parking lot after school. We're are going to settle this once and for all! Big Grin

As far as what me and BJBG are takin.....its called reality man. You need to get some. It's awesome. LOL


I guess you're gonna put horse shoes in your glove. Mad
Good question. I thought I answered that in my overly long post about a month ago titled "Here for the seekers"

But if you mean why here exclusively then I really don't have an answer for you, other than the politics forum is worse than the religious when it comes to flame wars that I really don't want to get involved in. The entertainment is not really appealing to me because I rarely watch tv or go to movies, and there is really not much going on. The News forum is usually full of non-sense that I don't care enough to comment on either.....so for my entertainment the religious forum as the most bang for the buck so to speak. I like to talk about science (I wish we had that option) which seems to be discussed here the most. I am truly interested in the human condition. You get a more honest look at peoples inner thoughts and feelings here than anywhere else on the TDF.

But for you...because I have such warm affection for you...I will see if I can find a topic elsewhere on the forum for us to spar over. Happy? Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by rramlimnn:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Ok, thats it...I have HAD it with you....

Me and you in the parking lot after school. We're are going to settle this once and for all! Big Grin

As far as what me and BJBG are takin.....its called reality man. You need to get some. It's awesome. LOL


I guess you're gonna put horse shoes in your glove. Mad



Oh no! No gloves...its full on bare knuckle, bust your spleen and throw you in the ditch time mister! I don't need no stinkin gloves or horse shoes. 3:05 be there or be square! (unless the teachers are watching then we will just take it to my daddys field, you can ride with me) Big Grin
Rram,

I read it. Carefully. I will not disagree with you that by todays standard the manner in which Darwin speaks/writes would be considered racist. However for the times in which he lived he was quite liberal. He was an abolitionist for goodness sake.

I am sure that there have been some that have used Darwin's studies to further their own belief in racism. Before Darwin people were using the bible to prove they were right in enslaving blacks, and forbidding interracial marriage, etc... What you can not lose sight of is the basic findings of Darwin. All men, of all races came from a common ancestor. How could he believe this and be a racist? So was he racist against himself?

To me blaming Darwin for racism is like blaming J.D. Salinger for the death of John Lennon.

Do you honestly believe that Darwin set out to prove to the world that racism was acceptable, reasonable and justifiable? Or do you think he was merely a scientist that discovered some very new and thought provoking evidence that led us to where we are today in our understanding of the evolution of all things?

Of course there are theories that have been proven wrong. We have advanced in many areas and continue to grow in our understanding. Science is not meant to be static and you know this. I am sure that over time we will discover even more mind blowing things that Darwin could not have even fathomed possible. As I said on another thread...lets not throw the baby out with the bath though. Smiler
quote:
Darwin’s works led the world into the theory of racism. There can be no doubt.


And Einstein's math led to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Japanese. Yes, people misuse science to their own pleasures.

That does not detract from the truthiness of Darwin's theory. I'm amazed even now not at how much he got wrong but how much he got right using the limited tools he had available to him.

Yes, Darwin seemed to hold some racist views as did just about everyone at that time. As a man committed to the truth no matter the cost to him personally, I believe he would see the errors of his ways had he been alive to witness the discoveries we have made about our origins from Africa. We are ALL Africans.

Polluting the well by blaming all racism on Darwin is just dumb. It's propaganda. Racism existed long before him and will continue long after you are dust in the coffin.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
quote:
Darwin’s works led the world into the theory of racism. There can be no doubt.


And Einstein's math led to the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Japanese. Yes, people misuse science to their own pleasures.

That does not detract from the truthiness of Darwin's theory. I'm amazed even now not at how much he got wrong but how much he got right using the limited tools he had available to him.

Yes, Darwin seemed to hold some racist views as did just about everyone at that time. As a man committed to the truth no matter the cost to him personally, I believe he would see the errors of his ways had he been alive to witness the discoveries we have made about our origins from Africa. We are ALL Africans.

Polluting the well by blaming all racism on Darwin is just dumb. It's propaganda. Racism existed long before him and will continue long after you are dust in the coffin.


Sofa, none of Darwin can be considered the truth. The evidence supports things as being true.

Darwin did not see any good side to slavery but at a time when racism was not practiced as it become to be after his work was published in science books, news papers etc.; Darwin left no doubt that the black races were inferior. accept it as fact. At least you will be a little more educated about why we played hell believing it.
quote:
Originally posted by Sofa King:
Jank, you are awesome.

Just sayin.


Jank is awesome.

Those who pick on Darwin have so little to say. Modern biology confirms Darwin's theory, but for reasons Darwin could not know. Mendel, too.

Darwin got several things wrong. Besides, he was a human being. Let's just say he was a racist, for the sake of argument. How unusual! A Brit of the 19th Century thinking his was the pinnacle of human development? Inconceivable!

And churches in Alabama are still about 99% racially segregated.

It is to laugh.

*scoff, scoff*

Modern biology has improved on Darwin's correct hypothesis after many cross-referencing ways. Yes, Darwin made mistakes, but his essential theory remains correct and gets stronger every day.

THIS is what PO's the religious. Biology can change and improve on the receipt of better evidence. Religion is static, backwards, demonstrably ridiculous, but must be obeyed by the sheeple who haven't the courage to examine it critically.

Furthermore, any attempt to discount or discredit Darwin, even if successful, is a far, far cry from discrediting his theory or the vast body of evidence that supports it. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, a fool's errand.

Even farther, if one thinks that discrediting Darwin somehow enhances Creationism, then that one is a dammnable fool. Creationism is not the default fall-back if evolution is discounted. Creationism is the provenance and habitat of the religiously-poisoned and deliberately ignorant.

So go on, snipe at Darwin's dead a55 all you want. It is to your discredit and shame. More, I say, more, and now. We've hardly laughed at you enough, we want more.
Rram,

I will agree with you that Darwin was not 100% right in all his theories, but he did open up a whole new way of thinking about the world around us. I give him the credit due.

As for the racism part, well like I said people will use what ever means necessary even if they have to twist it and make it into something its not to backup their beliefs. I don't blame Darwin for this. I also still do not agree that racism began with Darwin. It was there long before he was known for his studies and theories.

Your up there in my favorite christians too. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Rram,

I will agree with you that Darwin was not 100% right in all his theories, but he did open up a whole new way of thinking about the world around us. I give him the credit due.

As for the racism part, well like I said people will use what ever means necessary even if they have to twist it and make it into something its not to backup their beliefs. I don't blame Darwin for this. I also still do not agree that racism began with Darwin. It was there long before he was known for his studies and theories.

Your up there in my favorite christians too. Smiler


Dear Jank,

You were doing well in the beginning of your post when you were agreeing with me.

Then; …..you had to bring in ‘people’ as though an underlying agenda on their part is the truth test.

If I considered the fact that bjbg has aspirations of his being found to be the missing link as a basis for my journey to the truth I could never hope to arrive.

You on the other hand; well darlin’ ………you’re just hot ended.
quote:
Originally posted by rramlimnn:


Dear Jank,

You were doing well in the beginning of your post when you were agreeing with me.

Then; …..you had to bring in ‘people’ as though an underlying agenda on their part is the truth test.

If I considered the fact that bjbg has aspirations of his being found to be the missing link as a basis for my journey to the truth I could never hope to arrive.

You on the other hand; well darlin’ ………you’re just hot ended.



Well I can't agree with you ALL the time rram. What kind of relationship is that? Do you really want me to just tell you that you are right about everything? If so then things are going to get bumpy and we may need to go for counseling.

I need to know right now what the deal is with BJBG? Is there someone else in your life that fills your thoughts besides me. Just be honest with me. I need the truth. Big Grin

Now, I think that painting Darwin as a racist is an agenda the creationist/ID folks have pushed on the world. Shall I show you examples of racism in the world BEFORE Darwin to prove this to you? I am not talking about the word racism, I mean the acts.
Jank Dear,

I can assure you bjbg is not your type; have no fear that my feelings for him are other than pity.

[quote Jank]Shall I show you examples of racism in the world BEFORE Darwin to prove this to you? I am not talking about the word racism, I mean the acts.

By all means ‘bring forth the body’

As I often say 'I'm on a journey to the truth not from it'.
quote:
Darwin left no doubt that the black races were inferior. accept it as fact.



I do not deny that.

So what's your point?

What basis do people use for racism today Rram? Racism is based on ignorance. Yes, Darwin was ignorant in certain areas. He had no clue about genetics other than the fact that he knew there was some mechanism responsible for inheritance, for example.

Oh, and he also thought black folks we less intelligent that white folks. I used to think that way, too. I realize I was ignorant and perhaps even stupid.

So what?

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