Dear God

I fully believe God deals with a person from inside out rather than outside in and in doing so leaves no doubt as to the source of the communication.  Isn't that convenient?  By that definition, only you have the means to acknowledge the truth.  But let's just say that I grant you your conviction.  It still does absolutely nothing to convince anyone else of the truth of god, and most certainly does not give one the right to create and maintain a theocracy such as Alabama has become.

The truth of your inner god is far from indisput-able. (funny censors we have here... in Spanish, for the love of pete... oy, vey)  Indeed, billions of Muslims, Buddhists, Scientologists, Mormons, atheists, and for all we know, whales dispute it every day.  The geographic propensities of religion are one reason why the gods are most necessarily man-made.

At work, more later. 

DF

They don't believe in Hell, but why do you think that would make them happy? I've never seen an Atheist that would be that cruel.

God may have been talking to Moses beforehand but did Moses believe before or after he stretched his hand out over the sea that it would part?

When Jesus told the paralytic man to walk, did he believe before or after he stood up & walked?

When the blind man walked to the pool to wash his eyes, did he believe before or after?

When a person asked Jesus to save him/her, do they believe before or after?

When Jesus asked the 10 Lepers to go show themselves to the priest, and as they went they were cleansed, did they believe before they went on their way or after? They had to have some amount of belief to even ask Him for mercy.

I'm sure you would not have been a **** or a follower of Hitler however it could be said, by some, that he had a point also in his efforts at genocide but regardless of whoever would be crazy enough to think genocide of a race of people would be tolerable is dangerous and just as guilty as those who participated in it.  Your statement that you understand their reasoning and believe they have a point is a disqualification of what you said earlier.  You either agree with it or you totally reject it for when it comes to something as drastic as that there is no gray area.  

I'll concede that much has been done in the name of religion, by various people the wrongs that were done were in no way justified and I don't understand them.  I don't understand how the KKK could condone racial hatred and bigotry in the name of Christianity and carry the cross yet hate any other human or person for their external skin color or nationality.  IT"S WRONG and I cannot see where they are coming from nor do I agree with it or feel they have a point.  I think, no I hope, you mis-spoke and will rethink that statement and be honest about it otherwise how can you say you are not one of them if you do really feel they have a point.

That's just my opinion, as a Christian, reading what you posted.

So GB, you think atheists are like Hitler? Nuff said. You can sit in the corner with prince and his "children of the prince of darkness" crap.

Okay Uno, the only thing I have to go on, with respect to Christian/Atheist ... Atheist/Christian confrontation is what I see on this board for I don't go into the Atheist newsgroups on USENET but I have heard of some who have gone in and preached or voiced their "Unwelcome and unwanted" opinions and were chastised for it by the members of that group for doing so.  They were doing no less than the Atheist in this forum are doing.

Since all I have to go on is this forum I'd challenge you to cite just which Christians have threatened you due to your opinions?  What century or decade are you referring to and what geographic location?  I do belief the over abundance of evidence, from the post on the Religion forum, will bear out that it is the Christians who overwhelmingly have been attacked, ridiculed and demeaned account of their belief and not the reverse. 

Additionally many atheist actually misjudge their personal attacks upon Christians for a true Christian relishes being persecuted in Christ name and having the ability to suffer or endure hardship or criticism in Christ name for there is no doubt that Christ endured the same and more so it's not something that's negative but the tune never seems to change.  For the mature Christians, on the forum, the criticisms and insults are badges of honor but it's the new Christians or those who are not so mature in their faith that at times suffer account of the barrage of insults and criticisms and that's not fair when they may be coming to the forum, a Religion forum, to ask questions of religious people about their new found faith.  For you or any other atheist to influence them is shameful upon your own self.  You call BS on that which you perceive, your opinion, for you have no definite proof against God as no one can provide you with definite physical proof of God's existence.  To state otherwise is pure arrogance.  

There's non-Atheist people that would like to do that. 

Have you ever noticed that Atheist & non-Christians are always accused of being the way we are because we don't want to give up what the Christians call the "fun/party life? I'm just your standard human being that doesn't party, don't drink (except for an occasional Bloody Mary), don't mistreat others, etc., but I'm accused of not becoming a Christian because I don't want to give up "the fun", whatever that is supposed to be. My fun is snuggling with my husband watching a good movie on TV.   I gave up the Christian life because I was unhappy in it & wasn't doing it right, according to the "Christians".

It seems apparent that some very legalistic Christians  have crossed paths with you in the past.  For what it's worth I fully believe they are wrong and acting against the cause of Christ.  Careful analysis of Christ interaction with those seeking salvation will show and demonstrate that He never laid down laws that they have to follow to be saved.  You aren't saved by your acts and what you do in the flesh or in your body whether pleasurable or not.  You almost make it sound like to be a Christian means you have to subject yourself to victorian era rigid conduct requirements.  That's more a denominational doctrine and not what Christ said or not what God said, in the scriptures. 

There are definitely Christians who are over judgmental and try to force people to live according to a rigid set of laws or rules they derive from the Law's as given in Exodus.  Christ died on the cross and provided Salvation by Grace and not by works and a person can never be good enough to merit salvation and that's what it appears you have been told or led to believe you over judgmental Christians at one point in your life.  Sure I could be wrong but from your statements it appear that way and I just wanted to say if that is the case it's plainly wrong! 

It will be interesting to see this reply.

Jennifer it was you who posted this in a previous post: 

 

I won't deny there are atheists that would like to rid the world completely of religion. I'm not one of those, haven't met one of those. I do understand their reasoning and believe they have a point.Religion is one of the biggest reasons for all the unrest in the world. Take that away and you wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about.  We can go around and around about that. Religion in school? I oppose it. It's a parent's decision to teach that to their child in the home if they want them to know, and I wouldn't want them to lose that right.  What dialog would you like? When you try to "dialog" where does it go? Things have definately changed, responsible parents no longer sit back and let others tell them how to raise their child.

You stated that you do understand the reasoning of "those".  May I remind you "those" are the atheist I was referring to as not being happy unless all Christians ceased to exist and were no longer were in the world.  My application using Hitler was to compare the two frame of minds and policies.  IN one instance (Hitler) he felt that he was justified by elimination of the Jewish nation/race in order to achieve his "MASTER" race or Arians.  

You seem offended but just how are the two not similar (in application) when I compare elimination of the Jewish people/nation in order to achieve a master race and elimination of all Christians and other religious people in order to achieve an atheist utopia where we "wouldn't have nearly as much to fight about"?   I'm not claiming, as you say, that you or other atheist are Hitler but to condone the death or elimination of a group either because of their beliefs or their nationality IS THE SAME.  

YOU are the one who wrote that you can understand their reasoning, are you not?  Did you not?   If you can understand the reasoning in desiring elimination of a whole group of people account of what they believe then it's no far stretch to compare that mindset to that which promoted Hitler and what he was trying to achieve.  Can you understand Hitler's reasoning?  It's your words, not mine, so either own them or reject them but they say what they say and indicate you can "understand" their (atheist who would eliminate all Christians and religious people) reasoning.  I am only going by the context of the discussion.

That was the wrong answer for someone who is not like them because the right answer would have been to not understand it and condemn it.  Just look at what goes on here in the Religion forum and see just who it is that are attacked all the time and disparaged ... Who is it?  Christians or Atheist?  What reasons do Christians state they are here for verses what purpose are some or many atheist here for?  Many have said they are here to declare our beliefs BS.  They aren't here for any constructive reasons but destructive ones and some say/type they don't care what others think of it.  Great example of humanity.  

No comments of condemnation from other atheist of this activity but let BIll make a post and he's crucified for being judgmental or pronouncing that one day people will answer for their decisions.  Not only that but applications are made to the rest of the Christians in the forum or the majority of Christians are stereotyped thus.

See if you can understand this .... again.   I DON'T THINK ATHEIST are like Hitler UNLESS they desire to eliminate all Christians and religious people from earth and have their atheist utopia.  If that's is their desire, and as you know some want, desire, and crave, then YES they are as dangerous as and like Hitler in that they justify the elimination of a subset of people they either don't like or don't agree with.

If I'm wrong then show me and the other forum members where and how?   Just where do you actually stand Jennifer? 

b, the basic premise of your post is wrong.  There was no Moses, no Exodus, Israeli archeology has proven this.

Like almost all of the bible, his story was taken from earlier mythology, particularly the Babylonian mythology from the Jewish captivity therein.  You could look it up.

DF

That is incorrect.  Archeology has not done such.  Sodom and Gomorra was dismissed as fable but i a recent History/National Geographic program I saw where archeologist have found what they fully believe, with a high degree of accuracy, is Sodom.  The same for many other cities or locations.  If you don't want to believe it I'm sure you have your reasons however it's not genuine to make such statements that are incorrect in order to justify your disbelief.  Even if Archeology has not found something doesn't mean it didn't or does not exist anyone can realize that.   

Show you and other forum members? Now you really sound like bill. I did not mean or imply that they want to kill anyone.  I know they wouldn't. I said they would love to get rid of religion, because of all the wars, hate, misery, and turmoil it causes. Then you come right along and compare us to Hitler. If I said there are people that want to eliminate all discrimination and other problems that tear down society, which there are, do you take that to mean we want people killed? Christians love to brag about how the world embraced christianity even though they know full well it was forced on people. "The cross or the sword". And as I posted before, even missionaries know the "heathens" they claim to convert still practice their old religions. And it is fine with the missionaries as long as it's done undercover. But at the first whiff of the idea that others might feel the same about you, that it needs to be kept in private, all hell breaks loose.

No, I would not have been a follower of hitler, just as I wouldn't have been a follower of the "christians" that were slaughtering non-believers.

You've never seen an atheist, you just listen to all the BS put out on this forum.

Yes, that would make them happy for two reasons.

1. They would be there to see it really did exist. It would boggle their minds to finally realize that they could scientifically examine it.

2. All the 'Christians' they hate would be there too.

You are the one who said every one would go to Hell, not me. You judged the whole world and deemed it invalid.

Hi Deep,

Anyone can post making bold statements -- with no supporting proof.   Hey,  I can write that my Friend, Deep, is ten foot tall -- but, with no proof, it is just a lot of hot air.  And, without factual proof, so is your claim about Moses and the Exodus.   Many religious and secular writers verify these events, as well as the life of Jesus Christ.  So, where is YOUR proof that Moses did not exist?  Fact -- or hot air?

Of course, you will not respond.  You have taken the slippery way out -- claiming that you do not respond to me anymore.   Well, I suppose as many times as I have proven you wrong; you have good reason to avoid dialogues.   But, that still leaves your bold claim as just that -- an empty claim with no supporting facts.

But, hey, you have left the Missing Link floating for a long time -- why not Moses?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

My statement about showing/demonstrating to other forum members was made in response to your reply indicating total irrelevance of the statement about Hitler or ****s.  We can only go by the context of the topic or subject being discussed at the time and the original post I made I've quoted below, again, for clarification.  

GBRK wrote:  Frankly, as far as that is concerned, at times it appears that many atheist are not looking for common dialog or a dialog at all.  From appearances it seems as if many atheist will not be satisfied until the world is rid of all religious people and most prominent in their cross hairs are Christians.  I hate to put it that way and I'm not saying you fit that mold but I can assure you that there are many atheist that do and would not rest until all traces of Christianity is removed from Earth.  That is the impression that many atheist leave with many Christians so both can be considered intrusive as well for the impression that many atheist leave is they are not happy as long as any Christians are there.  In that respect I believe there are far more atheist who believe that way than there are Christians who feel likewise about atheist.

What do you think I was talking about?  Some slow attrition of Believers by natural causes?  I meant just what I said and indicated that I fully believe there are some Atheist who would feel it could be justified for the totally elimination ( as in death ) of all Christians and believers in order to get rid of Religion.  Radical ... of course but some people are, I believe, that hard core and irrational and obsessed.  The main issue I had with your statement is that you could understand their rationale.  What is the great distinction between being able to understand their reasons or rationale and accepting it yourself?  While there is a lot of difference in that you aren't saying you agree with it I suggest it was the wrong response all together.

The reason I said what I did about Atheist in the first place was that many admittingly are here for nefarious reasons and they don't care if anyone doesn't like it they are going to attempt to be pains to every believer.  When statements like that are made if there are Atheist who don't agree or disagree then they should be first to call their fellow atheist on it.  Have I not stepped in before and took another believer to issue when I felt they were being unjust to Christ Cause and not reflecting what I felt we Christians should be reflecting?  I have but seldom if ever do we see Atheist call out their other like members who do such as overt attempts to be disruptive and personally offensive to forum members who believe differently.   

You and others acknowledge this is an open, public, forum and you have a right to be here and to post.  I agree with that however with freedom comes responsibility, does it not?   What reasons do you think most atheists are here on the forum for?  What is your reason for being here?  My reason is that I am here to answer for my personal faith and belief and to answer questions regarding Christianity from those who are sincere and honest in asking  a question.  

Do you also consider Atheism a Religion?  What i said about Hitler was radical but it was about radical people who believe essentially the same as Hitler in that being that there is justification for elimination of a group of people.  Forget what the justification is but that they believe that there is some form of justification that exist at all.  

We are dealing with perceptions and all you have to do is view post from professing Christians and see the content of those, including Bill, and look at the non-believers and admitted atheist and see what content their post have.  Compare the bulk of them and then give me your honest opinion about just who is treating who unjustly or un-neighborly?

There has been statements about Christians, on the forum, making post that ooze hatred and I've requested the re-posting and citing of who is doing this, being hatred and oozing hatred so it can be addressed but that has yet to be answered.   

Hitler was a Roman Catholic.

Taking the bulk of post on the Religion forum, Semi, just who do you see attacking who the most?  Who makes the most disparaging  and personal insults about the other folks that do not believe as they do?   You do have Christians and religious people making post on the Religion form of a religious nature about religious things, myself being one, yet I'd love to see and have shown to me where a Christian has originated an overt attack against any non-believer or admitted Atheist on this forum?

You are here enough to know and see .. who is it that always is first to jump into a topic/subject and declare that the participants that post their opinion are delusional or insane, or unintelligent?  Who overwhelmingly is it?  

Of those on the forum that have at times either been judgmental or perceived as attacking another forum member how many times have you posted replies criticizing Atheist/non-believers verses how many times have you made negative post regarding Christians?  The question is are you being consistant yourself and being unbiased?  

I feel it a very valid statement to say that Christians, as a group, are attacked and insulted five times to one if not twenty times to one, if not EVERYTIME when compared to their atheist or non-believing counterparts. 

I do get it that you and others feel that Bill has inappropriately judged you but has he ever called you the names that myself and other Christians are routinely called by some atheist and other non-believers on the forum and not by mistake but in deliberate acts and attempts to disparage us because of our belief.  When that has happened have you ever posted a negative or critical post in response addressing the attacks on Christians and their intelligence?  

I read what B said to you in a reply and I didn't see any attempt to JUDGE or cast Judgment upon anyone.  B said "I Guess we'd all go" not that we all deserve to go or that you or anyone else deserves to go.  That would be judging, in my opinion.  Why do you feel that you were being judged by her?   How is what she said Judging as she never said she wished anyone to go to Hell or that anyone deserved to go to hell because?   If we are going to be honest in our post then lest all be honest and up front with our fellow forum members.  Be consistant also, is all I ask.

Lots of statements are made like this Jimi.   You said it so where is your proof?  What URL links and citations can you provide that backs up your blanket assertion?  Where is there evidence that Hitler sought out the blessing and approval of the Pope?  Something any true Catholic would have done.

Besides what if Hitler did say,at one point, he was Catholic or even a Christian which based upon the evidence the opposite is far more probable in that Hitler was more into the occult than Christianity from historical records and programs that I have heard.  So, also, what would be your purpose in saying he was Roman Catholic?

Nor would I!  For one I don't approve of it, I don't see justification in Scriptures for their actions nor can I understand or comprehend the potential reasons for what they did.  Although religious people are still doing some crazy things, such as Radical Muslims, acts by Christians are long ago and under tyrannical leaders who claimed Christianity or by other Church leaders who claimed justification by fabricating God's approval or fabricating justification for their acts.

Actually I would propose that more Christians were killed and slaughtered than non-believers but I can't prove that statement.

I've never seen an Atheist????? That statement would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous & I'm not going to dignify it by answering.  You presume too much! 

I said: I suggest you read the Bible & see what His teachings are & what He considers "living humbly". None exist in the world today.

You said: So if none exist in the world, then I guess we all go to hell.

gbrk, are you saying I make the bulk of post in the Religion forum??? If this is true, then it's time for me to go.

As far as who I  see attacking who the most would be about even but I wouldn’t call it attacking, it’s more of a discussion, as far as I’m concerned, except for Bill. He’s the master of disparaging &  personal insults. Just because a discussion can get heated, doesn’t mean it’s an attack.

You want to see where a Christian has originated an overt attack against a non-believer or Atheist on this forum? I can’t believe you have to ask. There must be hundreds of them, mostly by Bill. Long before you came to be here, he used his stupid little cartoons to ridicule & call all of us names, Christian & non-Christian. We don’t see the cartoons now, which must be because of the new forum layout. If you want to see what I’m talking about, go back & look up some of his older post. You’ll see what I mean. Anyone here can tell you about his cartoons & how he has attacked us all.

I’ve seen Christians here accuse Atheist, non-believers & even other Christians, of being delusional, insane, or unintelligent. There was one just a few hours ago against Skippy.

I’m very consistent in making negative post. When someone tells me how stupid I am for not being a Christian or that I need to become one, it’s going to cause negativity on my part. I’m a grown woman & I don’t need anyone telling me how to live my life. If I want to become a Christian, I know all the steps. There’s two people on this forum that I believe to be Christian & that’s O No & vplee. Those two have never attacked me. They have come at me with a loving heart & kindness. I firmly believe a person gets back what they give. When you first came to this forum you came w/o attacks but that seems to be changing.

I strongly disagree that Christians are attacked & insulted five times to one if not twenty times to one. When a Christian is "attacked", as you call it, it’s usually because they are preaching & telling others how to live. They should get the beam out of their own eye before trying to take it out of someone else’s.

When have I said that I felt I was being judged by B? I thought she & I were having a civil discussion. The written word is sometimes hard to know how it’s to be taken but I haven’t seen where our discussion has gotten out of hand, as you imply.

I agree that we need to be honest in our post & up front with our fellow forum members, so can you tell me where I have lied? B is the one that said "I guess we all go to hell", even though she has accused me of saying it. Sometimes I come across much stronger than I mean to be. That's one of my many shortcomings.

My purpose in saying it was that it is true. I am not here to look up stuff for you.

Makes me laugh when people act like they can't even do a simple search.

Ohhhh I seeeeeee GB. You say more christians were killed for their belief, (you're wrong btw) so somehow that makes the slaughter of non-believers by them A-OK. Seems like it's you that could sit back and do nothing if someone started tossing atheists into the ovens. Heck, some of you would probably ask them if they had enough fuel for all of us. Atheists know what most christians think of them. And then you post utter nonsense like atheists would kill christians if they could. 

Semi, don't play their game. I've posted to you that guilt trips is one way they work. Then you have the ones that attempt to belittle or "talk down" to atheists. You know, they try to come across as kind and wise and you're just misguided, they just want to help you. They always show their true colors because they aren't kind and wise and can't keep up their charade for long.  When a post hits home to them, or they see you aren't buying it, their mask slips and you see them for what they really are. Then you have the more "honest" ones, they don't even pretend to be nice, they just flat out go on the attack and send your butt straight to their hell. And then there are the sincere believers that post without all the resentment against people different than them.

B-I missed your post about atheists wanting a hell, can't find it, but see it referred to in some of Semi's answers, so if I misunderstand that's why. But to plow ahead, firstly I don't believe in heaven or hell. No atheist does. Secondly, I don't know anyone that would wish for a hell, except for some christians of course. Thirdly, being an atheist doesn't mean you walk around hoping for eternal torture for people you don't like. There are some people I'd like to see "get a boot up their ass" but I'd have to draw the line at tossing anyone in a lake of fire just because I didn't like or agree  with them.  As valid as the argument is sometimes, I don't actually buy the "He needed killing" defense. Unless we're talking criminals.

So Semi, you hang in there. Post what you want to post-the way you want to post it. If some  people don't "get you" that's their problem not yours.

Oh Semi, check out the thread about "fine-tuning" of the universe, and note that they call the christian "outspoken" and the atheist "combative".  That's their mindset.

Have you noticed how B's Christianity is coming to light? Isn't it wonderful how Christian's can know non-believers & Atheist so well that they can say what we think, know, & feel?

LOL, nope, I'm not a Christian semi, you said so.

As for knowing you, yeah, i think i have figured you out. You are afraid of going to hell for some presumed sin that some wackball preacher told you in the past, therefore, you want to not believe so you listen to the atheists and try to forget God exists, but you can't. If you didn't believe you wouldn't spend so much time picking apart others statements.... As for non-believer, you are not, for that would be atheist. As gb said better than me, you have a warped notion of the Bible and have been told the wrong things in the past.

So for an outspoken and combative non_Christian, all i can say is stop believing the crap you have been told. Any sin can be forgiven. Any one can go to Heaven. God forgives more than we can imagine. Trying to live a life by constantly worrying about minute day to day things is not living.

Oh, and for my definition of a Christian, very simple, one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

I like simple.

Now, atheist and christian, continue with the judging contest.

I have a life to live.

Shalom.

B50m,

Did jesus joy send you over here from her heavenly forum to judge others?

I think you need to keep your tail over there.

You two snakes kicked me off over there and here you are over here spoisn’ to intergalactate Semi.

You have your work cut out over there on that flea bitten pack.

---------------------

Jeffrey Dahmer was a Church of Christ, he also wanter to be rebaptized in to the COC

while in prison, and he was rebaptized. What does that do to the COC? Nothing,

It's still the same good church as always.

And you're still the hate filled silly little boy as always. I wonder how many closets

doors you're hiding behind?

Iv

haha,

that has crossed my chitlin', mind.

Blind man you do realize your screen name chitlin’ is part of the azz. Are you trying to tell us something?

I spend far more time on here than I need already, I will admit to that.  As for checking out or doing simple research into what's said on the forum I possibly would consider that if what was said was from someone I considered credible and I was to comment on it.  Jimi has stated before he only cares to post, without reading anything a Christian has to say, so why would I give any credibility to his post in the first place?  Jimi, and others, make all kinds of statements and if a person makes a statement is it too much to request on what basis they make the statement?  If I went looking up everything Jimi has said or gave him a measure of credibility then I would discredit myself by those actions alone.

GB,

For someone who says they read most of the post on this forum you sure have missed a lot. There have been countless times that evidence and links have been provided showing that Hitler was indeed Roman Catholic. Not that it really matters much. It just always seems to strike a nerve in Christians when that is pointed out. I could care less if he were Muslim, Christian, or Wiccan. He was evil regardless. The fact is he himself claimed to be Catholic. It is well documented and easily found. I will make it easy for you since you seem to be in need of help with this one.

Here ya go.

fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...amp;client=firefox-a#q=hitler+catholic&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=c3v&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&prmd=ivns&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=51MGTpWnBYHagQfCtcHSDQ&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&ct=more-results&resnum=16&ved=0CHsQ6AIwDw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=27b93cf21cbb40b9&biw=1345&bih=538

Note that I am replying within the above quoted text and my replies appear in BLUE.

LOL, you are so pathetic you made up 13 names and emails to try to fake your way into that flea bitten pack, lying through your teeth every time. You got booted every time.

Notice I said for the rest of you atheists and christians to judge, not me, bub. That's all that happens in the religious forum. Every one judges some one else by their own standards which is pure BS.

You should know buff, since you reported Joy because she didn't toe the line the way you wanted.

COC hypocrite is all you are.

I told semi to stop believing crap and find the answers for herself, and not on some crappy forum.

If she took that as judgement, shoot me.

The only snake I have seen is the one with 13 names, buff/deano/redbone/ramm/kitty/ peter etc............