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quote:
Jennifer, Do you understand the difference between Positive Moral Values and Relative Moral Values?

If so, which do you support?

My response/answer to your query.

You don't get to ask the questions. I ask for people's opinions, and as usual you don't have an answer. It's like crusty said -you have to answer a question by asking another. Your caterwauling about all the christian values being lost is pretty silly seeing as how you can't name one.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
Much has been said about America losing it's "Christian Values". Which values have been lost, how/why were they lost, and how would you bring them back and put them "back in effect"?


The fact that we are becoming more and more gov't driven is a biggie. The Christian values our founding fathers leaned on while putting the foundation in place are wide spread. One of those is that man cannot bestow rights to another man, only God can do that. However, with whining atheists mixing with committed communists, we see a strong turn towards 'State appointed rights' for the citizens of this country.

It's ironic that you as a conservative, do your best to belittle libs, but in the same turn you belittle one's belief in God the Creator. The ironic part is, whether you believe in God the Creator or not, it was our founding fathers' belief that caused them to leave us a path of liberty and freedom in America. Because they believed in Him, the believed we were free and that the state must have regs put on them. However, lib progressives need God slid out of the consciousness of the citizens of America so they can be brainwahed into believe that rights DO come from the state and NOT from our Creator.

I'm not saying you must believe, but be careful what you want removed...it may be a linchpin to something you really don't want.... read up on Communism/socialism. You'll understand what I'm talking about. Worry more about fighting that as apposed to fighting Christians. We don't want to fundamentally transform this country...(if you recognize that quote then you know the folks that do) Wink
I guess the question was just to hard. Neither bill nor peter can answer it. You really go all spastic when you think someone has called you names, then you post your crap. Who's whining peter? I ask what values you had lost or felt like you were losing. Now tell me what I have to be careful of. I am a Republican, but I am not a Republican because I want to oppress people because of their sexual preferences or non-belief in a god, or because they have different beliefs in different gods.



You state: One of those is that man cannot bestow rights to another man, only God can do that. However, with whining atheists mixing with committed communists, we see a strong turn towards 'State appointed rights' for the citizens of this country.


What right would you deprive men of? As a Republican I firmly believe people should be equal. I'm not going into a political rant here, so let's just say you can't name a "christian value" that the country has lost. I can name a lot of values that have been lost, but I don't consider those to be "christian" values only.
quote:
Originally posted by bluetick:
OK. this is for the Christians. Define Christian values.


i'm not a christian, but i'll define the phrase as i understand it.


loveing your neighbor by default. always employ the golden rule - treat other people as you want to be treated.

never passing judgement on someone personally. this don't mean you have to agree with them, or that you can't tell them you think their ideas or actions are wrong or mistaken.. it means you don't assume the role of God and judge their worthyness for heaven, or decide they are destined for hell.

helping people to the best of your ability, as circumstances allow. if you're financally well off, this means giveing money to help someone.. if you good with a hammer it means giveing some time to some place like habitat for humanity, if you're good with tools, it means helping to repair the car of some single mom or such who can't afford the labor costs.. if you're young and healthy, it means roaming around the neighborhood offering to cut the grass of an older person who can't manage it themselve anymore.... for free.

to me, christian values means placing the needs of other people over your own desires.

that isn't to say, put what they need ahead of what you need... it means see to your needs first, but before you start taking care of your wants, look to the needs of other people.
feed your kids. pay your bills. fix the leaky sink. replace the squealing brake pads. but before you go out to that fancy restaurant and before you buy that new premium set of golf clubs, check and see if the local soup kitchen needs a little help or some money for supplies, or check with the local food bank or things like that before you blow thousands of bucks on something you want, but don't need.
don't deprive yourself or your family of basic necessities to provide for strangers.. that's just stupid... but give to others before you indulge in luxuries.
sometimes it can just mean that you listen to someone's troubles instead of dashing away to get a Mocha with your last few minutes of lunch break. you don't get the mocha.. but you might help lighten the heart of the person who needs to talk...


that's really pretty much it.
1. don't judge and decide other people are living in sin and are going to hell. no living person on this planet has the authority to make that call.
2. love other people by default, and treat everyone as you want everyone to treat you. be GOOD to people.
3. put the needs of other people ahead of your personal wants.

and one more thing.... maybe the most important one...

like everyone else who tried to hold those values sacred and follow those rules.... i'm not always as close to the letter or even the spirt of those rules and values as i would like to be. i often fail and one or more of them, or never get around to the other...

but the last part of what i think of as christian values means that i recognize that i dropped the ball, try to figure out why and how i dropped the ball, and one i figure out the cause, i try and make sure i do better next time.

no one is going to always do all of those to perfection.... and the last part of it recognizes that and reminds us to try again.. never give up... if you fall down, get back up and keep on keepin on...


that's what i think of as "christian values"
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
"Christian values" is an oxymoron. Jesus himself would be aghast at the "values" perpetrated in his name.

Christianity has become a power/money grab. How unusual. It started 1500 years ago. It's now become a science. And it's tax-exempt.

Sweet.

The time for resistance is now.


nsns



RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!!


ok. sorry.. couldnt' resist. i'm over it now.
quote:
Originally posted by bluetick:
I will give credit to the Nagle for the best answer, however, these aren't just Christian values. These are things that all caring people should aspire to. Christians do not have a monopoly on morals and values. Some of us atheists are as caring, moral, and giving as Christians. Believe it or not.


I give thenagel an A+ & 5***** for his definition.
Some Atheist are more caring, moral, & giving than some Christians, especially more so than one self proclaimed "Christian" on this forum. But, of course, he doesn't have a Godly attitude at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
"Christian values" is an oxymoron. Jesus himself would be aghast at the "values" perpetrated in his name.

Hi Deep,

I see you are making progress. Now, you at least admit that Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, is real! Otherwise, He could not be aghast!

Good for you! You are making serious progress!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by bluetick:
I will give credit to the Nagle for the best answer, however, these aren't just Christian values. These are things that all caring people should aspire to. Christians do not have a monopoly on morals and values. Some of us atheists are as caring, moral, and giving as Christians. Believe it or not.


I give thenagel an A+ & 5***** for his definition.
Some Atheist are more caring, moral, & giving than some Christians, especially more so than one self proclaimed "Christian" on this forum. But, of course, he doesn't have a Godly attitude at all.



no.. what i listed shouldn't be read as " the values a Christian believes are important"..

they aren't exclusive to christians.. they are juts what i feel like someone, as a christian, would strive to make sure they follow...

now, the truth is, blue was right.. you cna remove the word 'christian' from the post completely.
they are just values i think are necessary to be an exceptionally good person. and isn't that what a christian is supposed to do? strive to be exceptionally good?

i don't know very many people who fit that description.. lord knows i certainly don't. i'd be happy with striving to be less of a Ahole, but i doubt i'd make it lol.

Bill might be an even worse example of christian (or indeed, human) values than *I* am, because at least i don't presume and pretend that i'm better or more enlightened or more holy than than everyone else.
quote:
"Christian values" is an oxymoron. Jesus himself would be aghast at the "values" perpetrated in his name.


I can agree with that to some extent.
Let me say this- to be a Christian, is to be a follower of Christ. To strive to BE LIKE CHRIST.
Jesus was loving, humble and unassuming.
So many times in the Bible He says "Don't tell anyone I've done this for you".
Being a Christian does not mean having the right answers, being self righteous and noble, etc. There is a distinct line between being a quiet light of Christ, and a hypocrite on the corner.
I'm not judging anyone. I am not a good Christian. But I try. And fail. Every day.
We are not called to be people who memorize the Bible and judge others.
We are supposed to be the quiet love and acceptance of Jesus Christ. To walk as He would walk, help one another, and protect the weak and vulnerable.
If we could do THOSE things in His Name, we'd be better off.
I don't believe even the most hardened of us atheists will argue with the philosophy of Christianity. Do unto others.....love thy neighbor...don't lie cheat or steal..don't kill each other. However, being humans, that is hard to do sometimes. Like with this Peanut-Vinson thing. I know I am wrong for getting satisfaction from Vinsons being beaten, but I can't help it. Sometimes that old testiment rule of an eye for an eye is just what the doctor ordered. I suspect all of us have some aspects of our morals and values that could use "a little work." I believe Jesus said one thing that would cure all the worlds problems. If we could love thy neighbor everything else would take care of itself. Naive, yeah, I guess it is. But, it is true.
quote:
Originally posted by bluetick:
I don't believe even the most hardened of us atheists will argue with the philosophy of Christianity. Do unto others.....love thy neighbor...don't lie cheat or steal..don't kill each other. However, being humans, that is hard to do sometimes. Like with this Peanut-Vinson thing. I know I am wrong for getting satisfaction from Vinsons being beaten, but I can't help it. Sometimes that old testiment rule of an eye for an eye is just what the doctor ordered. I suspect all of us have some aspects of our morals and values that could use "a little work." I believe Jesus said one thing that would cure all the worlds problems. If we could love thy neighbor everything else would take care of itself. Naive, yeah, I guess it is. But, it is true.
Only problem with Vinson's beating is who administered it. Criminals. That means potential lawsuit by him with a good chance of winning it, money out of taxpayers pockets. I wonder too if the ones that beat him have been charged with assault. Isn't it funny how criminals talk about police abuse and yet when given the chance do exactly what they claim the police do? It's an odd world.
I agree that Christian 'values' are not that different from any value a good, caring, and concerned person should have.
Why does it have to be labeled "Christian"? Good people are good people, and bad folks are bad, no matter what religion they claim or if they claim no religion at all.

If we could all strive to be good people...the rest will take care of itself.
quote:
Originally posted by Connie2:
I agree that Christian 'values' are not that different from any value a good, caring, and concerned person should have.
Why does it have to be labeled "Christian"? Good people are good people, and bad folks are bad, no matter what religion they claim or if they claim no religion at all.

If we could all strive to be good people...the rest will take care of itself.
The thread kinda wandered off point thanks to someone I won't name but he knows who he is. Wink My question was what "christian values" did bill and others think they were losing, why were they losing them, and how did they intend to put them back in society. It's interesting to me that bill can't come up with one even though he moans about lost christian values.
quote:
Originally posted by Jennifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Connie2:
I agree that Christian 'values' are not that different from any value a good, caring, and concerned person should have.
Why does it have to be labeled "Christian"? Good people are good people, and bad folks are bad, no matter what religion they claim or if they claim no religion at all.

If we could all strive to be good people...the rest will take care of itself.
The thread kinda wandered off point thanks to someone I won't name but he knows who he is. Wink My question was what "christian values" did bill and others think they were losing, why were they losing them, and how did they intend to put them back in society. It's interesting to me that bill can't come up with one even though he moans about lost christian values.


That's just it Jennifer, I don't think there are any "Christian" values that cannot be claimed by any good person. One does not have to be Christian to have high morals and standards......and as we have seen all too often, some that claim Christianity as their guide have certainly not shown their actions to be moral.
quote:
That's just it Jennifer, I don't think there are any "Christian" values that cannot be claimed by any good person. One does not have to be Christian to have high morals and standards......and as we have seen all too often, some that claim Christianity as their guide have certainly not shown their actions to be moral.

Agreed.
Great thread Jennifer.

Too bad the ones that whine the loudest couldn't back up their own gripe.

Good moral behavior is something that we humans have developed over time to build a better society. Nothing more, nothing less. The bible is a book compiled by men with that and other agendas. It has its good points, and then it has its backward self serving ideas that have no place in a modern society.

I too would like to see Bill or Peter list some "Christian Values" that have been lost. I would be willing to bet money that they are all things that would trample all over the rights of other American's that don't hold their same belief in God. Gay rights, seperation of church and state in our education system, abortion. Otherwise I can't think of anything. Whether you agree with those things are not they are rights that every American should have. If you don't believe in homosexuality then don't have homosexual sex, if you want Jesus taught to your children in school then send them to a Christian based school, if you believe that abortion is a sin, then don't have one. So simple really. Those that want to impose these things on all citizens are a threat to our freedom and our country.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
at him have been charged with assault. Isn't it funny how criminals talk about police abuse and yet when given the chance d

jen,

another way of asking your question is, what does christianity provide to you and society that cannot be done through any secular means?
Well unob, I wanted to know what "christian values" bill had lost. I wanted to know how he figured he lost them, how he'd get them back, but bill being bill he can't answer a question without asking another or starting a thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Jesus was loving, humble and unassuming.

He assumed he was god.

That is neither humble nor unassuming. Jesus was the guy who clarified the notion of Hell. Believe in him or suffer it. That is not loving.

Veep, luv ya, but repeating Sunday School mantras just keeps the mouth working. Mouth open, ears shut.

nsns

---------------------------------------

ns.......... Don't worry about it, Jesus can take care of himself. And I

know you can also, for now.


Iv
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Jesus was loving, humble and unassuming.
So many times in the Bible He says "Don't tell anyone I've done this for you".
Being a Christian does not mean having the right answers, being self righteous and noble, etc. There is a distinct line between being a quiet light of Christ, and a hypocrite on the corner.
I'm not judging anyone. I am not a good Christian. But I try. And fail. Every day.
We are not called to be people who memorize the Bible and judge others.
We are supposed to be the quiet love and acceptance of Jesus Christ. To walk as He would walk, help one another, and protect the weak and vulnerable.
If we could do THOSE things in His Name, we'd be better off.


Bless you, my friend. Not all Christians have the kind, loving heart that you do. Recognizing that you are human & will fail, though you try not to, is an indication of a Christian heart.

There's a couple of "Christians" here that shout their deeds & judgment of others to the roof top but that's as far as it gets.
God, if he exist, will deal with those kind in the by & by.

Jesus may have been loving, humble & unassuming, as long as you obeyed him, but he also has another side. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Jesus was loving, humble and unassuming.
So many times in the Bible He says "Don't tell anyone I've done this for you".
Being a Christian does not mean having the right answers, being self righteous and noble, etc. There is a distinct line between being a quiet light of Christ, and a hypocrite on the corner.
I'm not judging anyone. I am not a good Christian. But I try. And fail. Every day.
We are not called to be people who memorize the Bible and judge others.
We are supposed to be the quiet love and acceptance of Jesus Christ. To walk as He would walk, help one another, and protect the weak and vulnerable.
If we could do THOSE things in His Name, we'd be better off.


Bless you, my friend. Not all Christians have the kind, loving heart that you do. Recognizing that you are human & will fail, though you try not to, is an indication of a Christian heart.

There's a couple of "Christians" here that shout their deeds & judgment of others to the roof top but that's as far as it gets.
God, if he exist, will deal with those kind in the by & by.

Jesus may have been loving, humble & unassuming, as long as you obeyed him, but he also has another side. Wink

-----------------------------------

Who gave you,ns, and all the other hammer heads the right to tell
someone they don't have the right to their opinion?

Veep didn't say anything to have that smart ass remark made.

Can all of you religion forum haters, God haters, Jesus haters and
believer haters.

Go one dammm day without pukeing your hate for God all day. I didn't so.


.

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