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That's a pretty good point, I agree. The Bible is a good study tool and I believe it contains the word of God. As someone who has studied history, I also know that it has probably been tampered with. God gave us a brain and logic so that we can figure out on our own what we think He wants. He's very clear about some things and others are left for us to figure out. When people focus on smaller details of the Bible, they loose focus of what they are supposed to be studying.
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Originally posted by NashBama:
That's a pretty good point, I agree. The Bible is a good study tool and I believe it contains the word of God. As someone who has studied history, I also know that it has probably been tampered with. God gave us a brain and logic so that we can figure out on our own what we think He wants. He's very clear about some things and others are left for us to figure out. When people focus on smaller details of the Bible, they loose focus of what they are supposed to be studying.


My point exactly.
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Evolution is often said to be "closer" to a law than a hypothesis because the theory is so very overwhelmingly supported by evidence but get this: EVOLUTION WILL NEVER BE "LAW" because it does not meet the aforementioned criteria for a law.


You're right, in other words there are some parts of the theory that can and have been proven, there are other parts that can't. Isn't that what I've already said?
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Originally posted by NashBama:
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Evolution is often said to be "closer" to a law than a hypothesis because the theory is so very overwhelmingly supported by evidence but get this: EVOLUTION WILL NEVER BE "LAW" because it does not meet the aforementioned criteria for a law.


You're right, in other words there are some parts of the theory that can and have been proven, there are other parts that can't. Isn't that what I've already said?


No, that's not what you meant. You are being intentionally obtuse and dense.

Let me make it clear to you: What has been "proven" by a overwhelming preponderance of the evidence and to the complete and utter satisfaction of every known scientific discipline and organization on the planet is this: Man is a primate who evolved from earlier primates who evolved from lower mammals and so on.
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Originally posted by GoFish:
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Originally posted by NashBama:
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Evolution is often said to be "closer" to a law than a hypothesis because the theory is so very overwhelmingly supported by evidence but get this: EVOLUTION WILL NEVER BE "LAW" because it does not meet the aforementioned criteria for a law.




You're right, in other words there are some parts of the theory that can and have been proven, there are other parts that can't. Isn't that what I've already said?


No, that's not what you meant. You are being intentionally obtuse and dense.

Let me make it clear to you: What has been "proven" by a overwhelming preponderance of the evidence and to the complete and utter satisfaction of every known scientific discipline and organization on the planet is this: Man is a primate who evolved from earlier primates who evolved from lower mammals and so on.


I totally agree - one need only to look at bush to discover genetic link between apes and humans. He speaks somewhat like a human, he eats with utensils, he walks upright (but drags his knuckles), his appearence is rather simian like but more human in many respects. His intelligence level was displayed like a trained dog at Harvard, yet in application it lacks reason and success. Yes, yes, I do believe in evolution - and the fact that it may not be complete for some individuals.
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No, that's not what you meant. You are being intentionally obtuse and dense.

Let me make it clear to you: What has been "proven" by a overwhelming preponderance of the evidence and to the complete and utter satisfaction of every known scientific discipline and organization on the planet is this: Man is a primate who evolved from earlier primates who evolved from lower mammals and so on.


It's exactly what I meant, I'm sorry you didn't understand it the first time. Man evolving from lower mammals is still a theory. There are some interesting fossils that suggest this, but no real link between us and them. Again, science calls it the "missing link" for a reason. Until it's found, which I doubt it ever will, it's still a theory and not a law.
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Originally posted by GoFish:
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Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
If I had a dollar for every time you started in on fricking evolution vs. creationism I would be rich. It seems you do your best to take pot shots every opportunity you get. Geez. Are you insecure about it. If not, back off.


For me, it's kinda like constantly running across a post stating that "two plus two equals five." I just can't help myself from calling down someone who is stupid enough to not only believe that but deny the proven answer even after they've been shown otherwise.

It's also a way to vicariously combat the stupidity of the religious fundamentalists nationwide. I don't necessarily have a problem with you believing what you want but there are people who believe as you do that want to teach their religious beliefs in a science classroom. I am quite passionately against that.

So, if you don't like being picked on for believing in ghosts, witchcraft, demons, a literal interpretation of the bible and 2+2=5, then stop bringing the stupid subject up.


I'm sorry, I did not realize I brought it up on this topic. No, wait, I didn't. And I have to say that "stupid subject", by what I believe and KNOW as truth is that of an exploding ball of matter that somehow I supposedly came from.
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If evolution was a demonstrable fact, it would be a law. Last time I checked it was still a theory. When has anyone demonstrated that creationism is false? I'm not talking about the whole 6000 year old earth thing, I don't believe in that. There are scientists who believe in a Creator, my biology professor in college for one.

As I said before, to believe that science knows everything and that life is an accident requires too much of a leap of faith for me. If that's what you want to believe, fine. I'm not going to consider you less intelligent the way you consider me.

This has all been said before. It's obvious you have a hatred towards religion and religious people. I'm not trying to change your mind, simply asking to show a little respect for those with differing beliefs.


For Pete's sake, nash. Is your hangup over rhetoric the only thing from opening your eyes to the truth? OK, It's now the Law of Evolution. Happy?

Creationism is demonstrated false every day. Every fossil that is dug up, every discovery of genetics disproves that nutty idea.

I don't dislike religious people, but I have no respect for the deliberately stupid.

DF
A theory does not become a law just because you say so, sorry. Fossils do not disprove creation. How did the animals that were fossilized get there? Did a few basic elements just randomly and without reason smash together and poof, there's an animal? If that's what you want to believe, but I'm not buying it.

Amino acids are the basic building blocks of life. For amino acids to be created, conditions must be exactly right. This was demonstrated back in the 50's when a scientist combined hydrogen, water, methane, and ammonia, then shocked it with electricity to simulate lightning. This created amino acids.

The scientist had to purposely combine these things together and provide exactly the right conditions for the experiment to work. For this to happen randomly on it's own in nature, happen enough to develop some kind of life, and develop other forms of life for a functioning habitat is just too far of a stretch. The odds of that really happening are incalculable. Besides, what created the basic elements that created the first amino acids?

I believe in design, not chance. I don't accept everything that I'm told, I ask questions and challenge beliefs, that usually causes people to get defensive as you and Go Fish have shown. If that makes me deliberately stupid, so be it. You can put your whole faith in science if you want, but science has made mistakes before and are not immune to mistakes in the future. If you want to put blind faith in something fallible, that's your choice. I require more evidence.
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Originally posted by NashBama:
Amino acids are the basic building blocks of life. For amino acids to be created, conditions must be exactly right. ( . . .) The odds of that really happening are incalculable. Besides, what created the basic elements that created the first amino acids?


Physics and chemistry, Nash. Simple as that. No magic. No Big-Man-Who-Reads-All-Our-Minds-and-Lives-In-the-Sky, no spook, not even a flying spagetti monster. Just natural laws and chemistry. Open your eyes.

Your example of aminos acids created in the lab was so very outdated. We know so much more now.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/solarsystem/comet_life_010405.html

Excerpt: "More than 70 varieties of amino acids have been found in meteorites -- many the suspected cores of comets that smashed to Earth -- and are presumed to exist in interstellar dust clouds."
You missed the point of the example. Those amino acids in the lab had to be put together by someone who knew what they were doing. They didn't just fall out of some beakers on the floor and presto, amino acids, that's just too far fetched. Yet, that's what some want us to believe happened in nature, I think they had help.

Besides, how did those amino acids get in the meteorites? It's pretty tough to get those exact conditions on a rock out in space, isn't it? How did the meteorite get there? It just appeared out of nothing for no reason? Sorry, that's too weak for me to believe, but you can if you want to.
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Originally posted by NashBama:
Besides, how did those amino acids get in the meteorites? It's pretty tough to get those exact conditions on a rock out in space, isn't it? How did the meteorite get there? It just appeared out of nothing for no reason? Sorry, that's too weak for me to believe, but you can if you want to.


It doesn't happen "out of nothing" you silly guy It's basic chemistry! Do you doubt that two invisible gasses called oxygen and hydrogen can combine and form something very dangerous called dihydrogenmonoxide? I'm serious! It happens spontaneously enough to fall from the sky in some places.

Comets are "dirty" balls of ice and rock. Meteors come from comets. Meteorites land on earth. Smart people find them take a really close look and find the basic building blocks of life.

Amino acids form just as spontaneously as water when interstellar ice reacts with ultraviolet light. Again, no magic, no Jaysus, no cowering before the alter, no animal sacrifices are necessary. Just take ice and add sunlight.

Open your eyes, Nash!
So what created the balls of ice and rock? What created the oxygen and hydrogen? Where did all the basic elements come from? I don't believe that things appear spontaneously. Things just don't randomly appear out of nothing and defy odds by combining and forming other things. Just as the scientist created amino acids in a lab, a higher power created them in nature.

A good example I heard in school was about a box of watch parts. You can shake a box of watch parts forever and they'll never fall in exactly the right place to make a working watch, but a bunch of elements can randomly slam into each other forming a universe and life? I don't think so.
God wasn't created, He always was. It's hard to understand and impossible to explain, but that's how it is. Sure, you can say the universe always existed, but that goes against the Big Bang theory, doesn't it? God is just as tangible as the universe, it just takes a little different way of looking at things.

The main difference between atheists and those who believe in God is that atheists believe humans know everything and are superior. Those who believe in a higher power have accepted the fact that there are things beyond our comprehension and that we are not superior. For us to try and understand God is like my dog trying to understand my computer. Just because she doesn't understand it or even knows what it is doesn't mean my computer does not exist.
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Originally posted by NashBama:
God is just as tangible as the universe, it just takes a little different way of looking at things.


Hmm. So I can pick up a piece of 4 billion year-old rock and throw it at your head. Can you pick up a piece of God and do the same?

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The main difference between atheists and those who believe in God is that atheists believe humans know everything and are superior.


Bunk. Atheists are absolutely certain that we DO NOT know everything and know we are not more superior that the ant you crush under your foot while taking a walk through the park.

It is organized religion who claims to have all the answers, knows the "truth" and threatens you with eternal pain if you so much as question its authority.

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Those who believe in a higher power have accepted the fact that there are things beyond our comprehension


No disagreement there. You look at a complex object and say, "I don't understand therefore god did it."

But I believe that all things are knowable. Our progress over the past few thousand years has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is nothing in the universe that it un-knowable or beyond human comprehension. We are, collectively, understanding more and more every single day.

It is so grieveously sad that you are too ignorant to participate in this exciting journey.
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God wasn't created, He always was. It's hard to understand and impossible to explain, but that's how it is.

why is that how it is? By what evidence is that how it is?

If something always has been, it's the universe. Before this one, there might have been who knows how many before it? Who knows if there are infinite universes in other dimensions?

We don't understand everything, but that's no reason to make up an answer like god. We know what we know, and we have some idea of what we don't. AND we are learning more every day.

DF
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It is so grieveously sad that you are too ignorant to participate in this exciting journey.


As I said before, some people get angry and defensive when their beliefs are challenged, thanks for providing a good example of that.

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Hmm. So I can pick up a piece of 4 billion year-old rock and throw it at your head. Can you pick up a piece of God and do the same?


As I said, it takes a different way of looking at things. Even science has things that you can't see or touch such as electrons or anti-mater. It takes specialized instruments and calculations to find these things. To find evidence of God requires a little more than just your naked eyes.

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Bunk. Atheists are absolutely certain that we DO NOT know everything and know we are not more superior that the ant you crush under your foot while taking a walk through the park.

It is organized religion who claims to have all the answers, knows the "truth" and threatens you with eternal pain if you so much as question its authority.


You think you are superior to me because I believe in God. Just go back and look at all the cheap shots at my intelligence because you disagree with my beliefs.

Organized religion and the belief in God are two different things. I'm not a member of a church and I don't claim any denomination. Some churches believe things and teach things that I don't agree with. Don't lump all Christians together has having the exact same belief, we don't.

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No disagreement there. You look at a complex object and say, "I don't understand therefore god did it."


No, I look at everything simple and complex as God's creations. Things don't appear out of nowhere or create themselves, something has to start the process. I can see a 4 billion year old rock and know that all the minerals and elements that made it had to be created some how. They then had to be brought together in the right conditions to create the rock. That's something that is impossible to happen simply by accident, so if we rule out accident the only thing left is intent. To have intent there must be intelligence behind it.
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Who knows if there are infinite universes in other dimensions?


Good point, who knows? Is there evidence of another universe or an alternate dimension? So putting a belief in the possibility of an alternate universe is okay, but putting a belief in God is not. That simply comes down to a choice in faith, you're taking one faith and I'm taking another, no difference really.
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ah, but my dear nash, I do not insist that there are parallel universes, I only admit the possibility.

You insist god exists, with no proof whatever.


There is no proof of a parallel universe either. So is there the possibility of God if the same holds true with parallel universes?

There is proof of God, but like I said, just as we need something to help us see electrons and neurons, we need something to help us see proof of God.
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there is a possibility of god, same as Santa claus.

What is the proof? what do you need to see it?


So if there is a possibility, you can't say that He absolutly does not exist.

The proof is all around, if you really want to find proof and you search for it, you'll find it. It's different for everyone and requires an open mind and open heart. At one time I doubted the existence of God, I found evidence that proved otherwise. It's just something you just have to find for yourself, but you have to be willing to look.
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The proof is all around, if you really want to find proof and you search for it, you'll find it. It's different for everyone and requires an open mind and open heart. At one time I doubted the existence of God, I found evidence that proved otherwise. It's just something you just have to find for yourself, but you have to be willing to look.

nash, ol' bud...... under that criteria, I could talk myself into whatever god is currently fashionable. If I accept existence as proof of god, I can then choose among many gods. they can't all be right.

I don't mean to be pedantic or stubborn, but I want evidence of your god. One thing that I can see without talking myself into believing it first. got one?

DF
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nash, ol' bud...... under that criteria, I could talk myself into whatever god is currently fashionable. If I accept existence as proof of god, I can then choose among many gods. they can't all be right.

I don't mean to be pedantic or stubborn, but I want evidence of your god. One thing that I can see without talking myself into believing it first. got one?



I didn't say accepting existence is proof, I said you have to open your mind to the possibility. There's evidence all around, but until you're ready to look, you'll never see it.
Dr. Wernher von Braun replied when asked about whether or not it is reasonable to acknowledge a Creator:

"Must we really light a candle to see the Sun? The electron is materially inconceivable, and yet it is so perfectly known through its effects that we use it to illuminate our cities, guide our airliners through the night skies and take the most accurate measurements. What strange rationale makes some physicists accept the inconceivable electron as real, while refusing to accept the reality of a Designer on the ground that they cannot conceive of Him? … The inconceivability of some ultimate issue which always will lie outside scientific resolution should not be allowed to rule out any theory that explains the interrelationship of observed data and is useful for prediction. To simply dismiss the concept of a Creator as being unscientific is to violate the very objectivity of science itself."
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the good doctor was right. those things we can't reason don't necessarily not exist, but they don't necessarily exist, either.


That's sort of what he's saying, but you're right and that's what I've been trying to get across all along. It takes faith to not believe in God just as it takes faith to believe. It just comes down to where you choose to put your faith. Contrary to what many atheists say, belief in God does not require discarding logic, reason, or science.

http://everystudent.com/features/isthere.html?gclid=CIGqpq707o0CFRqsOAoddAuWPA
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Originally posted by NashBama:
That's sort of what he's saying, but you're right and that's what I've been trying to get across all along.


Umm, that's not true. What you've been trying to get across is that man was poofed into existence and woman was poofed form the rib of a man. All this was done via the magical power of an omnipotent space alien.

That is what you believe, correct? If not, exactly what DO you believe?
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Umm, that's not true. What you've been trying to get across is that man was poofed into existence and woman was poofed form the rib of a man. All this was done via the magical power of an omnipotent space alien.

That is what you believe, correct? If not, exactly what DO you believe?


Quote me where I said "omnipotent space alien".

Go back and re-read my posts, it's clear you haven't because I've made my point clear in just about every one.
I don't believe in the Bible or any other heavily edited ancient tribal text. I'm open to any and all new evidence. If Jesus came down out of the clouds and said here I am, see my magical powers, performed miracles and such, I'd take that into serious consideration.

At this point I don't require belief in any of the thousands of Gods man has chosen to worship. I do believe in myself, my family and you. ;^)

Our personal beliefs are our own and I support an individual's rights to worship in the manner they see fit.

Regards, miamizsun

P.S. Oh yeah, regarding the Dems National Convention, I put that right down there at the bottom next to the GOP Convention. I have no faith in them either. They're only second to the charlatans we see suckering the masses out of their hard earned money.
Last edited by miamizsun
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Originally posted by NashBama:
Quote me where I said "omnipotent space alien".


You insist that human origin could not have come form primordial soup, correct? You think we were zapped into existence by God, correct?

You call him God, I prefer to think of him as a extraterrestrial. Same thing.

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Go back and re-read my posts, it's clear you haven't because I've made my point clear in just about every one.


You made you point about what you DO NOT believe but I see nothing that indicates what you DO believe. Thus, I'm left with extrapolations. If I am wrong, please clarify: Where did we come from?
I never said we were zapped into existence. I said that the odds of us being here by accident are impossible. We were created, I don't know how. The Bible said man was formed from dust from the ground. I don't think a pile of dust just suddenly popped and became a guy, this may have been a process that took a long time. The thing is that no one knows exactly the process that led to us being here. All I know is that we're here and it's not due to a few innate materials randomly falling together.
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Originally posted by NashBama:
I never said we were zapped into existence. I said that the odds of us being here by accident are impossible.


Oh? Exactly what ARE those odds? A million to one, a billion to one? Infinite? You are a man who understands science -- a college graduate and all that -- so you know you must quantify that or risk being called an idiot.

So, what are the odds?

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The Bible said man was formed from dust from the ground. I don't think a pile of dust just suddenly popped and became a guy, this may have been a process that took a long time.


A process such as, ohh, I dunno, EVOLUTION?

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The thing is that no one knows exactly the process that led to us being here. All I know is that we're here and it's not due to a few innate materials randomly falling together.


I 100% agree with you there. No one knows. Theories abound but the evidence, SO FAR, suggest that it happened purely by accident. If you ahve another theory SUPPORTED BY EVIDENCE then I really want to hear it!

But you say "No one knows . . ." then, in the EXACT SAME SENTENCE say (paraphrased) "But I KNOW it didn't happen by chance."

Does your faith blind you so effectively that you can't even see that humongous hypocritical blunder?
You're not getting it. If you want to believe in the greatest cosmic odds defying accident of all time, that life came from non-life, that's your right. I think it takes a lot more faith to believe that as opposed to a creator. Calling me an idiot just shows that you are unable to handle a challenging conversation like this. I'm done here.
biology is not a greatest cosmic odds defying accident. Many biologists think that, with the right combination of chemicals and environment, life is more or less inevitable.

With all the billions of galaxies, each with billions of stars and planets, that right combination must occur from time to time. It happened here.

l'chaim!

DF
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Originally posted by NashBama:
Again, it's the same idea that if you shake a box of watch parts enough, they'll come together in just the right way and make a working watch. The odds on that are impossible. The odds that someone made the watch are more plausible.


Okay, I'll buy that: Let's take a box of watch parts - on second thought, let's tale a hundred million boxes of watch parts and scatter them all over the earth.

Let's start shaking every one of those boxes every second for a whole day . . . No, make that a year . . No, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, a million or perhaps a BILLION years.

With a nearly unlimited amount of time, what are the odds that the parts would fall into place just once in just one of those boxes?

Yeah, the odds are probably pretty darn slim. But slim is not "impossible" and, again, slim becomes likely when you literally have all the time on the world.

But we aren't talking aouit watch parts. We just needs a few chemicals such as sugar and phosphate and some proteins - all naturally occurring ingredients -- to come together one time in one small little primordial pond to form a single cell plant called algae. Once you have that, you have started the clock ticking towards something resembling you and me.

Doesn't that sound much more plausible than an amnipotent space alien poofing everything with the snap of a finger?

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