Originally Posted by Jennifer:
and you semi (not sure where you stand),
Me either, Jenn. Sad, ain't it? 
Semi I've been there and it can be confusing. After I started having doubts I fought them for years. I finally realized that the belief was gone, but that it was OK not to believe. No matter what any "christian" says you can't just up and believe. That may be one of the most stupid statements they make- that it's your choice. It says that they don't truly believe themselves, they just chose to believe. Anything you're supposed to feel "in your heart" can't work that way. It's like saying you can see a stranger and choose to love them even if you have no feelings for them.
YO--BILL GRAY--
You seem to have abandoned the discussion below. How about it? Having trouble with the scriptural concept of simultaneous ressurection of the evil and the good. Jesus did not have any trouble with it; why should you?
For your convenience:
quote: Originally Posted by upsidedehead:Bill posted THIS: "So, Winston, no -- there will not be two Raptures. There will be two resurrections. The resurrection of believers (the Rapture) before the Tribulation begins. And the resurrection of non-believers at the end of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom. The resurrection of the believers is called the Rapture because this is when Jesus Christ returns in the clouds to 'catch up"'-- take out -- Rapture -- His body of believers."
TWO resurrections--one for the evil and another for the good? And at different times--more than 1000 years apart??!! Let the debate begin--the debate between Bill Gray in this premillennialist corner and Jesus Christ from the pages of scripture!
Bill apparently has not read, or wishes to ignore, what Jesus actually said about the resurrection. Jesus unambiguously described the resurrection to include the coming forth from the graves of both the just (i.e. believers) and of the unjust (non-believers) as part of a single event. Here is what He said, from John 5:
28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of d a m nation."
Get it--they ALL (the good and the evil) hear that same voice of Jesus, in that "hour" in which the resurrection happens. Did they hear two voices, more than 1000 years apart--one for the good and one for the evil? Bill thinks so.
The words of Jesus make it unmistakably clear, to any honest, unbiased reader, that the resurrection of which He spoke is one in which ALL that are in the graves, including the evil and the righteous, will hear that same voice and will come forth from their graves and will be judged, and thenceforth will be sent to glory or to d a m nation.
Those whose thinking has been polluted and confused with all the distorted hermeneutics used to assemble the fables of dispensationalist premillennialism try hard to avoid the truth of what the Lord Jesus Christ said here But it is inarguable, from the clarity and simplicity of what Jesus said, that His concept of the resurrection was a concurrent rising of the good and the evil--all that are in the graves. Jesus has all the evil and all the good rising at the same time; Bill and the premills (sorta sounds like a rock group!) have changed the schedule, apparently without consulting with Jesus. I will stick with the Jesus account.
Hi Head,
You reference the Scripture passage found in John 5:28-29, "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
That, my Friend, is exactly what I have written. Two resurrections: the first being the Rapture of all believers which occurs before the Tribulation and is followed shortly, in heaven, by the Believers' Judgment, a judgment of rewards.
The second resurrection being the non-believers who will be raised at the end of the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom -- and all of these folks, the non-believers, will stand before Jesus Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment, a judgment of punishment (Revelation 20:11-15).
Where's the problem? If you will look closely at that Scripture passage, it tells us of two resurrections -- one to eternal life with God, the second to eternal judgment. There is NO MENTION of time in that passage; only that there WILL be two resurrections. That passage does not say that the two resurrections happen at the same time.
This agrees completely with what I have written. But, thank you for bringing up this point so that we can make sure it is clear in everyone's mind.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
That dog won't hunt, Bill.
You conveniently decline to consider the manner in which Jesus described the resurrection of which He spoke. He very obviously was speaking of a time, an "hour" (no, not literally a one-hour period, but obviously a narrow time frame) in which both the evil dead and the evil good would "hear his voice," at which time the good would rise to a resurrection of life and the evil would rise to a resurrection of judgment. The evil did not hear that voice some 1000 or more years after it fell on the ears of the good, as your dispensational premillennialist concept would demand. Both good and evil will hear the one voice at the same time. In that hour, Jesus teaches, "all that are in the graves shall hear his voice").
He said "an hour is coming." That is an hour, one hour (singular), not separate hours (i.e. different time frames) for the good and for the evil. Common sense tells an honest and objective reader that this is the sense intended. One must stretch and strain to squeeze out of what Jesus said a twisted rationale that agrees with triburapturist hermeneutics.
quote: Originally Posted by upsidedehead:YO--BILL GRAY-- You seem to have abandoned the discussion below. How about it? Having trouble with the scriptural concept of simultaneous ressurection of the evil and the good. Jesus did not have any trouble with it; why should you?
Hi Head,
No, I have not forgotten. It is just that I have been rather busy the last few days and have not responded to all that I would like. Several, yours included, I have pasted into my composer software for response. Tomorrow I have a doctor's appointment; so, hopefully I can respond to them later after my appointment.
Yes, I have responded to a few this last couple of days. Those were the easier ones which did not take a lot of time or effort. Others which require more work, I want to give more time so that I can give a solid answer which is Biblically correct.
Actually, the Bible is very clear about the different resurrections. So, I hopefully I can make it clear to you and all our Forum Friends, also.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
quote:Originally Posted by prince albert:I have been reading the Bible for a long time and I go along with "Head" on the things he says, Bill says things I have never heard of like "Bema Bench Judgment." Never heard of it and I have heard some very smart people Preach over the Years. But, I believe Bill said once that he has a Ph.D. That one ups us all.
The Bible was written for everyday People some people want to make it hard.
Hi Albert,
No, I do not have a Ph.D. and I am not a Bible scholar or theologian -- just a Christian believer who has spend almost 24 years studying, and at times teaching, God's Word. Albert, I am just one of those "everyday people" you mentioned. However, I am fortunate that God has made it possible for the last 12 years or so, for me to spend full time doing this.
So, with lots of study -- with good mentors -- and with a good resource library at home as well as all the resources on the internet; I feel that I have a fairly good knowledge of the Bible. And, especially eschatology, for I have spent a lot of time in the last twenty years on this subject. I feel rather comfortable with my interpretation of the Bible teaching regarding eschatology.
Admittedly, I have gone through a learning curve. And, when I have found that I have been wrong on a particular issue, I will make corrections. One example: I spent 4 years creating an Eschatology Time Line Chart. I can e-mail you a PowerPoint presentation I did on eschatology which contains these charts. If you would like this, PM me your e-mail address and I will forward this to you.
Until a few years ago, my charts showed the Judgment of Israel (Ezekiel 20:32-38) and the Bema Seat Judgment (Believers' Judgment) of 2 Corinthians 5:10 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 -- to be at the Second Coming of Christ. Then, with more study, it became clear that the passage in Ezekiel is speaking of the tribulations of Israel which will happen during the Tribulation, separating out the Remnant of Israel who will continue to be God's Chosen people, after the Tribulation, and going into the Millennial Reign of Christ.
And, the Believer's Judgment (Bema Seat Judgment) obviously has to happen in heaven before the Wedding Feast of the Lamb -- for Christ would not be wed to His Bride, the church -- and THEN have her go through the judgment. No, this must happen before the Wedding Feast so that the Bride of Christ may be presented to the Bridegroom, Christ, flawless.
When I discovered these errors, I made the appropriate corrections -- as I will continue to do as I grow more mature, daily, in the Word of God.
By the way, Albert, the reason most Christians refer to the Believers' Judgment as the Bema Seat Judgment -- is because "bema" is the Greek word for "judgment seat." You can see this in the following Scripture verses.
2 Corinthians 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat (bema in Greek)of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
Romans 14:10, ". . . For we will all stand before the judgment seat (bema in Greek)of God."
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Gooolllleee I am a whole lot smarter Today than I was Yesterday, Thanks Bill
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to all my Forum Friends,
<Snipped for brevity>
GB, I am sorry if this is not your cup of tea -- and I have no problem with you ignoring me and continuing with your "spitting contest" without me. It is just that I am not interested. So, you do your thing -- and I will do what I believe God would have me do.
My Friend, you seem to covet the approval of our non-believing Friends who applaud you because you do not point out the errors of their secular thinking. I am sorry, my Friend, I cannot sell the Gospel, I cannot compromise God's Word, for the approval of the secular world.
Bill, my problem with the continual topic changes (jumping around) is more a suggestion to not do it than a complaint on my part although I can see where that might be taken as a complaint. I think it diminishes your message and fosters the "spitting contest" mentality. I consider it akin to ducking issues or doing a written "Rope a Dope" type move which Mohammad Ali made famous in the Boxing vernacular. I'm glad you explained your reason for doing so and it's to other forum members to accept, that explanation, or not.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "spitting contest" unless you are referring to uncomplimentary responses.. If you are trying to say, though, God wants you to create all these different topics then I would have great difficulty in believing that but if you say so I'll leave that to you and whatever the Spirit is leading you to do.
As for your allegation of me coveting the approval or our non-believing friends I'd love to know what you base that upon? Maybe the problem is your personal definition of covet but besides being unsubstantiated and wrong it's unfair and a typical judgmental approach you seem to be unaware of.
Now to "not point out the errors of their secular thinking".
Bill answer me these:
- Where did Christ in any of His dealings, interactions, and ministry to unbelievers do so by pointing out their errors?
- Did Christ specifically appoint you to be the Judge over anyone other than yourself or those within your own Church as to their personal beliefs or actions? If Christ didn't why do you assume that you are doing the cause of Christ any good by doing so? Was Christ worst criticism not toward those religious pious ones who flaunted their positions over others?
- Do you see yourself as a Loving Christian witness of Christ or closer to a pious judge who is to determine the true meaning of Scriptures and determine who is right and who is wrong? See I was never given that directive, by God's Holy Spirit therefore I don't attempt to brow beat others whom I disagree with feeling that I have some patient on the sole ability to interpret scriptures.
- What do you base your decision about who is in error and who is wrong? Are you and your decision making capabilities perfect, flawless, and beyond error yourself?
- Are you willing to say that God has chosen only your specific church, denomination, life as the standard by which ALL other Christians should conform to?
- Bill, you confuse an attempt to not judge people with coveting for their approval. You are wrong in doing so. Do you seek to have a dialog with people to SHARE your opinion and view or do you only care to Preach to people as if they were dumb and not able to speak or interact themselves? You don't seem to care to share anything with anyone else but rather you seem to want to dictate conversations based upon your ultra narrow interpretations by pastors or teachers which you seem to feel are like your own opinions ... flawless.
I've already written too long a reply so I'll end here as I do believe I have expressed my point sufficiently.
I thought I would re-post this since it contained questions and was listed on a previous page. This way it doesn't require changing pages to read, and answer.
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Albert,
just a Christian believer who has spend almost 24 years studying,
I spent 4 years creating an Eschatology Time Line Chart.
When I discovered these errors, I made the appropriate corrections -- as I will continue to do as I grow more mature, daily, in the Word of God.
Bill
Bill, those "charts" & all that studying can be a hindrance. Someone told me one time that sometimes you have to let go & let God. Just a thought.
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Semi I've been there and it can be confusing. After I started having doubts I fought them for years. I finally realized that the belief was gone, but that it was OK not to believe. No matter what any "christian" says you can't just up and believe. That may be one of the most stupid statements they make- that it's your choice. It says that they don't truly believe themselves, they just chose to believe. Anything you're supposed to feel "in your heart" can't work that way. It's like saying you can see a stranger and choose to love them even if you have no feelings for them.
I guess being raised in church & being in church for so many years as an adult, I'm finding it hard not to believe. I still have those questions that if He's such a loving God, why He doesn't answer prayers, why He allows the bad things to happen to good people, & why He sends good people to Hell just because they don't get it exactly right.
On the other end of the scope, no one can show me how we came to be here from a "big bang". That's as confusing as believing that man was made from a piece of dirt.
It's sort of like realizing that you've been brainwashed, you can't just all of a sudden not believe what you were brainwashed about.
Semi it's like this with me, I don't know how we got here. I've listened to many theories, discarded a lot, a god being one I discarded, and looked further into some. I think that however we did come to be we are on our own. There is no mystical god in the heavens, no creator waiting for whatever reason to come and take us away, this is it. We are born, live our lives, die, lights out, end of story, and all the time others are born and their life starts, progresses, ends.
When we lose loved ones we have the memories of them to keep them alive in our minds, and I think the sadness of thinking you will never see that person again is what makes most yearn for another life. That and their fear of death. When I lost my dad, and then my mom, I wanted nothing more than to see them again. But I wanted them here right then, not in some later life. I'm not afraid to die, but I sure hope that is still years and years away.
quote:Originally Posted by semiannualchick:Bill, those "charts" & all that studying can be a hindrance. Someone told me one time that sometimes you have to let go & let God. Just a thought.quote:Originally Posted by Bill Gray:Hi Albert, No, I do not have a Ph.D. and I am not a Bible scholar or theologian -- just a Christian believer who has spend almost 24 years studying, and at times teaching, God's Word. Albert, I am just one of those "everyday people" you mentioned. However, I am fortunate that God has made it possible for the last 12 years or so, for me to spend full time doing this.
Admittedly, I have gone through a learning curve. And, when I have found that I have been wrong on a particular issue, I will make corrections. One example: I spent 4 years creating an Eschatology Time Line Chart. I can e-mail you a PowerPoint presentation I did on eschatology which contains these charts. If you would like this, PM me your e-mail address and I will forward this to you.
Hi Chick,
I have never met any Christian who has found that continued study of God's Word is a hindrance. Obviously, most non-believers will find any study of His Word to be boring -- for they are spiritually blind and cannot understand His messages found there.
But, I do have one serious question for you. You say, "Someone told me one time that sometimes you have to let go & let God." HAVE YOU?
I ask this because you tell us that you are not really sure if God exists. If you are not sure He exists -- how can you "let go and let God"? For a non-believer, isn't that sort of like betting on the tooth fairy to save your life?
Chick, my Friend, NOTHING would make me happier than to see YOU truly "Let Go And Let God" into your life and in control of your life. I would love to meet you in heaven one day.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Semi I've been there and it can be confusing. After I started having doubts I fought them for years. I finally realized that the belief was gone, but that it was OK not to believe. No matter what any "christian" says you can't just up and believe. That may be one of the most stupid statements they make- that it's your choice. It says that they don't truly believe themselves, they just chose to believe. Anything you're supposed to feel "in your heart" can't work that way. It's like saying you can see a stranger and choose to love them even if you have no feelings for them.
I guess being raised in church & being in church for so many years as an adult, I'm finding it hard not to believe. I still have those questions that if He's such a loving God, why He doesn't answer prayers, why He allows the bad things to happen to good people, & why He sends good people to Hell just because they don't get it exactly right.
On the other end of the scope, no one can show me how we came to be here from a "big bang". That's as confusing as believing that man was made from a piece of dirt.
It's sort of like realizing that you've been brainwashed, you can't just all of a sudden not believe what you were brainwashed about.
I think the personal reflections that both of you shared with the group is very representative of many people who have been in various Churches and found themselves disenchanted with Church, Religion, and the idea of God as a supreme deity. Regardless of the denomination, of the Church, it is an unfortunate fact that there are imperfect people who at times are in positions to negatively influence others either by their actions in and/or out of Church. I'm not saying though that either of you are effected by another Church member or other factors that are more personal.
I would like to offer a few personal thoughts or opinions to consider and ponder. Both of you not only have indicated in this post your past experience (possibly extensive) within the Church and had points of time that you assumed the title or name of Christian but both of you also have demonstrated that you are familiar with the text of Scriptures/The Bible. Many Christians are not so comfortable or knowledgeable about the Scriptures that I fully believe are God's word and message unto mankind.
I'm not though debating the scriptures or what I believe about them but instead I wanted to through out few points I feel should be made. As I Christian and student of Scriptures I believe that they teach, and I believe, that for a person to be aware of God, recognize God, and be able to express faith in God they (the potential believer) must have sufficient reason for that belief. In other words If God is who I trust and believe Him to be, then God will manifest Himself in a very demonstrative and personal way to the believer or potential believer.
For the believer God, I believe, provides the Holy Spirit as evidence of an inner change that has happened. An inner baptism of the spirit within the human a spiritual rebirth. This inner change is accomplished by God's Holy Spirit's power as one ministry to the believer. Additionally the Holy Spirit enables the believer's spiritual senses and will reveal God's will unto the new (and old) believer as well as assist in conveyance of our prayers unto God the Father. Christians who believe that salvation is eternal and cannot be lost believe so because they believe it is impossible for a person to remove the Holy Spirit from the believer. If that is the case then the thought is that a believer who has returned to a life that is no longer led by God's Spirit either because of unconfessed sin or return to a sinful life grieves the Holy Spirit thereby no longer experiencing the "Fruits"/benefits of the Holy Spirit. Such a situation is relayed in scriptures in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 where a believer is living in sin against God's will and leading by the Holy Spirit so the instruction to the Church is to allow this person to be totally influenced by Satan unto physical death at which time his inner spirit will be saved from spiritual death. I believe this is saying that a true believer/Christian can experience very low depths of dispare in their life. In fact it is my belief that a true genuine believer that returns to a sinful life and grieves the Holy Spirit will be most miserable yet be saved.
For the unbeliever I fully believe that in order for that person to be in a position to make the decision to believe or accept Christ as Savior that they have to be aware of a need in the first place. A spiritual awareness, so to say, of their need for a spiritual rebirth. God then must be the one who reveals this unto the unbeliever and makes them aware (awaken them) by the power of God in such a way that no other explanation can be made for the experience that the person is having. It is an internal awakening that the person knows comes from some divine source rather than some mental thought or nervous thought or feeling. In short it is my belief that God must reveal Himself unto the unbeliever.
I believe that the process of salvation is not some mental attitude to conform to some 10 commandments or laws or rules within Scripture that was given unto the Children of Israel, in the desert. Salvation is not found by obedience to a set of laws or commands but I believe salvation, and God, is found from recognition that mankind is sinful from the start and insufficient alone of God's grace. Knowledge that Sin is atoned for by a blood sacrifice and that Christ Jesus, as God in human flesh (God's Son). It is FAITH that Jesus Christ shed blood (blood from the death on the Cross) is the perfect sacrifice to atone for our sins (past, present, and future). FAITH that at the time of Judgment God looks not upon our acts while in the human body but rather sees Christ Blood and nothing else so God sees sufficient justification for the believer.
The example is given in Scripture that the Passover should be looked at. The act and FAITH of using a Lamb's blood on the doorpost to prevent the wrath/Judgment of God from falling on the first born. Similar is Christ Blood, (Christ the perfect lamb of God's blood) being sufficient to justify the believer of their sins and actions against God.
It is my belief that it is not the case of God willing anyone to Hell or sending anyone to hell whether they live a moral or immoral life for those terms are in and of themselves defined in human terms and by human standards. Just as with the Passover a statement was made that the first born would die but a provision, of God, was made which enabled people to escape that judgment/wrath. That faith was in the Blood and the provision of escape was made, by God. Likewise God's judgment upon sinfulness was made before man's transgression against God. Due to that transgression sinfulness was inherited throughout mankind and the verdict against sin was a standing verdict that a just God would enact. The penalty of Sin was therefore upon the head of mankind. Being just and in Grace God provided the way of escape again (escape from the verdict against sin) and that escape was through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. It is therefore not what a person does that sends them to Judgment but rather it's what they don't do. The provision of escape and justification was given and that was Belief in Christ Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice (perfect sacrifice). Therefore it is FAITH of that spiritual need (need for justification from sinfulness) and FAITH in Christ as our Sacrifice that provides our justification with God and escape from the penalty of Sinfulness.
God also realizes that being human also means having doubts and therefore God's Holy Spirit is given to the believer for verification of the person's new birth their justification. It is also my belief that living a Christian life is also not a burden or a task that is difficult but rather that the believers life, the Christian life, is one that is abundantly full and bountiful happiness while God's Holy Spirit is in control of the believer's life. At the point we venture into areas of life that we know God doesn't want us to go is the time that we began to suppress the fruits of the Holy Spirit and lose the benefits that the Spirit gives unto the believer. That along can cause doubts of a persons standing with God and their salvation when the person no longer feels and experiences God (God's Holy Spirit's presence inside along dwelling with our inner spirits).
I do not feel I have adequately stated that but hopefully if not followup questions will allow me to express it more clearly or more to the point I pray that God's Holy Spirit will provide the enlightenment and instruction to the person seeking. Regarding any questions directed to me if you want to ask here I'll answer here. If you want to talk in private dialog I respect that also and will keep all conversations private and confidential. I believe God to be very real and I believe that God will also make Himself manifest/known unto those who honestly seek God.
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,
I have never met any Christian who has found that continued study of God's Word is a hindrance. Obviously, most non-believers will find any study of His Word to be boring -- for they are spiritually blind and cannot understand His messages found there.
But, I do have one serious question for you. You say, "Someone told me one time that sometimes you have to let go & let God." HAVE YOU?
I ask this because you tell us that you are not really sure if God exists. If you are not sure He exists -- how can you "let go and let God"? For a non-believer, isn't that sort of like betting on the tooth fairy to save your life?
Chick, my Friend, NOTHING would make me happier than to see YOU truly "Let Go And Let God" into your life and in control of your life. I would love to meet you in heaven one day.
Bill
Bill, you twist everything I or anyone else says. I don't get what's with you. I said "all that studying". I didn't say never to study again. You can fill your brain with all sorts of reading, but it doesn't involve the heart. Intelligence & learning isn't what it's all about. That may be why you don't have any love/compassion in you. You're to busy filling your brain.
I'm really tired of answering your questions. I didn't say I should let go & let God. I was speaking of you. When someone told me that, we were discussing a man we went to church with.
Meet me in Heaven? You have about as much chance getting there as I do. If God isn't happy with me, He sure isn't happy with you. I don't have myself up on a throne judging people the way you do.
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,
I have never met any Christian who has found that continued study of God's Word is a hindrance. Obviously, most non-believers will find any study of His Word to be boring -- for they are spiritually blind and cannot understand His messages found there.
But, I do have one serious question for you. You say, "Someone told me one time that sometimes you have to let go & let God." HAVE YOU?
I ask this because you tell us that you are not really sure if God exists. If you are not sure He exists -- how can you "let go and let God"? For a non-believer, isn't that sort of like betting on the tooth fairy to save your life?
Chick, my Friend, NOTHING would make me happier than to see YOU truly "Let Go And Let God" into your life and in control of your life. I would love to meet you in heaven one day.
Bill
Bill, you twist everything I or anyone else says. I don't get what's with you. I said "all that studying". I didn't say never to study again. You can fill your brain with all sorts of reading, but it doesn't involve the heart. Intelligence & learning isn't what it's all about. That may be why you don't have any love/compassion in you. You're to busy filling your brain.
I'm really tired of answering your questions. I didn't say I should let go & let God. I was speaking of you. When someone told me that, we were discussing a man we went to church with.
Meet me in Heaven? You have about as much chance getting there as I do. If God isn't happy with me, He sure isn't happy with you. I don't have myself up on a throne judging people the way you do.
Careful, you're starting to sound like that "lunatic-J" person.
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
<snipped for brevity >
Hi Albert,
No, I do not have a Ph.D. and I am not a Bible scholar or theologian -- just a Christian believer who has spend almost 24 years studying, and at times teaching, God's Word. Albert, I am just one of those "everyday people" you mentioned. However, I am fortunate that God has made it possible for the last 12 years or so, for me to spend full time doing this.
So, with lots of study -- with good mentors -- and with a good resource library at home as well as all the resources on the internet; I feel that I have a fairly good knowledge of the Bible. And, especially eschatology, for I have spent a lot of time in the last twenty years on this subject. I feel rather comfortable with my interpretation of the Bible teaching regarding eschatology.
<Snipped for Brevity>
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Bill, You mention about all your studies and that you have especially concentrated on eschatology and that you feel rather comfortable. That being the case and you have more than one time stated that you, without reservation, adhere to the pre-tribulation rapture timing scheme. I wonder then just how familiar are you with the pre-tribulation theory? Do you know where it came from and when? I wonder if you would comment on the following about the origins of the pre-tribulation rapture for this is the source of what you accept as Biblical fact that you say is backed by Scripture?
The Origin of the Pretribulation Rapture Teaching |
| Whenever a Christian encounters a doctrine that has not been taught by anyone in any branch of Christ’s church for over eighteen centuries, one should be very suspect of that teaching. This fact in and of itself does not prove that the new teaching is false. But, it should definitely raise one’s suspicions, for if something is taught in Scripture, it is not unreasonable to expect at least a few theologians and exegetes to have discovered it before. The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). Christian journalist Dave MacPherson has written a book on the subject of the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture. He writes: “We have seen that a young Scottish lassie named Margaret Macdonald had a private revelation in Port Glasgow, Scotland, in the early part of 1830 that a select group of Christians would be caught up to meet Christ in the air before the days of Antichrist. An eye-and-ear witness, Robert Norton M.D., preserved her handwritten account of her pre-trib rapture revelation in two of his books, and said it was the first time anyone ever split the second coming into two distinct parts or stages. His writings, along with much other Catholic Apostolic Church literature, have been hidden many decades from the mainstream of Evangelical thought and only recently surfaced. Margaret’s views were well-known to those who visited her home, among them John Darby of the Brethren. Within a few months her distinctive prophetic outlook was mirrored in the September, 1830 issue of The Morning Watch and the early Brethren assembly at Plymouth, England. Early disciples of the pre-trib interpretation often called it a new doctrine.”2 |
| John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Darby would spend the rest of his life speaking, writing and traveling, spreading the new rapture theory. The Plymouth Brethren openly admitted and were even proud of the fact that among their teachings were totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators. |
| The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among Evangelicals is Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible, which espoused the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. In the minds of many a Bible teacher, fundamentalist pastor and multitudes of professing Christians, Scofield’s notes were practically equated with the word of God itself. If a person did not adhere to the Dispensational, Pretribulational scheme he or she would almost automatically be labeled a modernist. |
| Today there is a whole plethora of books advocating the pretribulation rapture theory and the Dispensational understanding of the end times. Given the fact that among professing Christians the pre-trib rapture is still wildly popular, a comparison of this theory with scriptural teaching is warranted. We will see that the typical arguments offered in favor of this theory are in conflict with the Bible. |
The above is the same as you will find many places. You can google it or yahoo or any other search engine. It appears that you have been studying well the writings and teachings of other pre-tribulation advocates who naturally have a bias toward interpretation of scriptures to back their belief in this timing scheme. If you disagree with the information about the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture and how it started then I'm willing to listen to your explanation of where it came from? Saying it came from the Scriptures is not a valid statement for what I'm looking for, in the way of an answer from you, is the origin of the teaching of this position. Paul didn't teach it nor did John or Christ for if they had it wouldn't have just appeared in the Churches post 1830. To deny otherwise is to have your head and mind in the sand and to live in denial.
Just add this to the 6 (six) other questions I posted to you above under this topic that you generated. Not that I expect you to comply but I would appreciate you keeping the discussion under this topic heading and section rather than create another topic heading.
Other links for the origin information can be found at;
Dave MacPherson answers questions:
http://www.zimbio.com/Christian+Life/articles/scyB8Acetfj/Dave+MacPherson+Noted+Expert+Origin+Pre+Tribulation
Brian M. Schwertley
http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm
Harry Bethel:
http://www.bethelministries.com/pretrib.htm
Ed F. Sanders :
http://www.theologue.org/origins.html
Soul Harvest Ministries of Minnesota:
http://www.soulharvest.info/ProblemsintheChurchtoday/PreTribulationrapturetheory/OriginofPreTribRapture.html
Pffff Gbrk...
you know better.. all of that you posted is purely false doctrine... because it suggest that Bill might not be right... you should know better than that.....
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Semi it's like this with me, I don't know how we got here. I've listened to many theories, discarded a lot, a god being one I discarded, and looked further into some. I think that however we did come to be we are on our own. There is no mystical god in the heavens, no creator waiting for whatever reason to come and take us away, this is it. We are born, live our lives, die, lights out, end of story, and all the time others are born and their life starts, progresses, ends.
When we lose loved ones we have the memories of them to keep alive in our minds, and I think the sadness of thinking you will never see that person again is what makes most yearn for another life. That and their fear of death. When I lost my dad, and then my mom, I wanted nothing more than to see them again. But I wanted them here right then, not in some later life. I'm not afraid to die, but I sure hope that is still years and years away.
============================================================================
Thank you. I believe that also.
That is how I believe we achieve the 'immortality' the believers refer to.
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Semi it's like this with me, I don't know how we got here. I've listened to many theories, discarded a lot, a god being one I discarded, and looked further into some. I think that however we did come to be we are on our own. There is no mystical god in the heavens, no creator waiting for whatever reason to come and take us away, this is it. We are born, live our lives, die, lights out, end of story, and all the time others are born and their life starts, progresses, ends.
When we lose loved ones we have the memories of them to keep alive in our minds, and I think the sadness of thinking you will never see that person again is what makes most yearn for another life. That and their fear of death. When I lost my dad, and then my mom, I wanted nothing more than to see them again. But I wanted them here right then, not in some later life. I'm not afraid to die, but I sure hope that is still years and years away.
============================================================================
Thank you. I believe that also.
That is how I believe we achieve the 'immortality' the believers refer to.
my problem with the idea of athiesm in general is simple....
i'm not worried about dying and never seeing the people i love again... if you guys are correct, i won't know it. blink-lights out. no more anything. sudden ceasation of existance.
what bothers me about that is that that isn't enough. for that to be right, then this whole universe, our lives here, everything we've ever done, leaned, etc, is all part of a meaningless accident with no significance.
absoloutly no point at all.
nothing we do here matter, except for right this second.
nothing that's happened, nothing that will happen matters for longer than it takes to happen.
it would have made no difference in the long run whether or not my mother had ever been born. or yours. or anyones, because there would be no purpose for us to be here.
i look around at the magic of life... i look at the one real miracle we can all see, the birth of a baby, and i just cannot bring myself to believe that it's all just a giantic cosmological Oops.
i understand people who tell me that can't make themselves accept the concept of a God, because i cannot make myself believe it's all an accident with no purpose.
God? i dunno. Jesus? i dunno.
but i know it wasn't an accident. if it was, then why not just everyone pick up a handy revolver and check out now? it won't make any difference in the end. so what if you hurt people that love you? they can use the next round and end their own hurt.
i don't know about an eternal reward, or heaven or hell and all that.. most of it really is just silly superstition and fear. but if there is no underlying purpose for us being here, then there is no purpose for us to continue existing.
art, science, knowledge.. nothing matters, it's all an accident. so why bother?
quote: Originally Posted by The Nagel:my problem with the idea of athiesm in general is simple.... i'm not worried about dying and never seeing the people i love again... if you guys are correct, i won't know it. blink-lights out. no more anything. sudden ceasation of existance.
what bothers me about that is that that isn't enough. for that to be right, then this whole universe, our lives here, everything we've ever done, leaned, etc, is all part of a meaningless accident with no significance. absoloutly no point at all. nothing we do here matter, except for right this second.
nothing that's happened, nothing that will happen matters for longer than it takes to happen.
it would have made no difference in the long run whether or not my mother had ever been born. or yours. or anyone, because there would be no purpose for us to be here.
i look around at the magic of life... i look at the one real miracle we can all see, the birth of a baby, and i just cannot bring myself to believe that it's all just a gigantic cosmological Oops.
i understand people who tell me that can't make themselves accept the concept of a God, because i cannot make myself believe it's all an accident with no purpose. God? i dunno. Jesus? i dunno.
but i know it wasn't an accident. if it was, then why not just everyone pick up a handy revolver and check out now? it won't make any difference in the end. so what if you hurt people that love you? they can use the next round and end their own hurt.
i don't know about an eternal reward, or heaven or hell and all that.. most of it really is just silly superstition and fear. but if there is no underlying purpose for us being here, then there is no purpose for us to continue existing. art, science, knowledge.. nothing matters, it's all an accident. so why bother?
Hi Nagel,
There is much wisdom in what you have written -- for the glory of God is all around us. And, there is no way all of this could have been an accident. But, I urge you to go one step further and see that all of this is the work of God -- and that He loves us so much that He offers everyone a Way to live eternally with Him. That Way is Jesus Christ (John 14:6) -- and He extends His invitation to everyone who will believe.
Nagel, there is so much more to anticipate than just this mere "blink of an eye" existence on earth. It is not superstition nor fear that makes me know this. I know it because, as you said, there must be a reason behind all of this -- and there is reason. God did not create all of this and us -- just to dump us into a bottomless pit of non-existence for eternity. No, He created us to love Him and to receive His love. Everyone who will turn to follow Jesus Christ does receive His gift of eternal life. Those who reject Him, rejects His gift.
My Friend, please take that next step toward receiving His gift. Be willing to let down your defensive fence and allow Him to come in and be your Best Friend.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Nagel I guess unless you are an atheist you can't understand. There is plenty of purpose to life, and especially if you're lucky enough to live it without the worry of "offending" a mythical man in the sky and buying a ticket to hell. Why would anyone want to pick up a gun and "end it all" when they have family to love, friends, activities, and even if they don't there are still plenty of things in the world worth living for. Life's a trip, get in, sit down, hang on, LIVE IT. Sometimes I think there's so much to life that's there's not enough time in the day to live it. I could ask what's the purpose of living if all you're thinking about is an afterlife? Why not pick up a gun end it all and go on to those streets of gold and mansions?
No purpose to life? I've posted this before and I mean it sincerely, I can't imagine a better life than the one I have right here right now.
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,
Be willing to let down your defensive fence
Bill
Nagel, you don't seem like the type to have a defensive fence up.
Originally Posted by The Nagel:
this whole universe, our lives here, everything we've ever done, leaned, etc, is all part of a meaningless accident with no significance.
absoloutly no point at all.
i look around at the magic of life... i look at the one real miracle we can all see, the birth of a baby, and i just cannot bring myself to believe that it's all just a giantic cosmological Oops.
i understand people who tell me that can't make themselves accept the concept of a God, because i cannot make myself believe it's all an accident with no purpose.
I agree with alot of what you said but what is the significance, what's the point, the purpose? That's some of the questions I have.
Why does there even have to be a purpose? It is what it is, and it's up to us to make whatever we can out of it without worrying about a purpose. We've all seen the poster, "It's not about the destination it's about the journey".
Originally Posted by The Nagel:
i look around at the magic of life... i look at the one real miracle we can all see, the birth of a baby, and i just cannot bring myself to believe that it's all just a giantic cosmological Oops.
i understand people who tell me that can't make themselves accept the concept of a God, because i cannot make myself believe it's all an accident with no purpose.
God? i dunno. Jesus? i dunno.
but i know it wasn't an accident. if it was, then why not just everyone pick up a handy revolver and check out now? it won't make any difference in the end. so what if you hurt people that love you? they can use the next round and end their own hurt.
i don't know about an eternal reward, or heaven or hell and all that.. most of it really is just silly superstition and fear. but if there is no underlying purpose for us being here, then there is no purpose for us to continue existing.
art, science, knowledge.. nothing matters, it's all an accident. so why bother?
=====================================================================
Yup. Cosmological Oops, I think.
Childbirth is not an actual miracle. There's no magic involved. It is the result of a biological process. All animals do it. Some don't even attach the significance to it that we humans do. Hell, some HUMANS don't even attach any significance to it.
Even accidents can have a purpose-even if it doesn't become apparent til way after the fact.
There IS order in chaos.
I'm sure that a lot of people that become disillusioned with religion do take up that revolver and end it all. Some people just can't handle the thought that maybe this is all we get.
Some people like me believe that if this is all we get then we better make the best of it while we're here.
I don't like to waste one minute of my life. Good, bad or ugly I'm going to live it to the fullest I can possibly experience it because the minute or so I spent typing this sentence is already gone and I ain't getting it back.
Some people spend their entire lives so afraid of dying that they obsess over it and make up grand stories about mansions in the sky and a warm, fuzzy place where hurt doesn't exist-and I'll admit, it is a nice thought-especially when you're busy slogging through this life.
But I don't believe it for a minute. I think 'heaven' or 'hell' is right here, right now.
Try if you will, to remember back when you were a very young child-back before you got taught about god and rules and regulations and rituals and all the self-flagellation that religion heaps upon us.
Remember back before ya got jaded- when you awoke from sleep all wide-eyed and hungry for more input. ANY input, and every day was a brand-new thing just waiting to see what ya could do with it before it was gone.
Life didn't have to have a point. It just WAS, and that was good enough.
I never lost that view, and because of that, I don't feel the need to hand my life's direction over to some mystical man in the sky.
I don't believe that life is all about the END because I'm not the least bit worried bout the end.
It's what is here and now that concerns me because it's the only part I can actually DO anything about.
I think that if ya spend your whole life worrying about how it ends-you end up wasting much of all that life worrying bout whether or not ya did it right.
I think that if yer doin' it right-you'll wanna put off that lead lobotomy for awhile. You'll be havin' WAY too much fun.
Pup, you should have a reward of some kind. You hit the nail right on the head. 
I'm gonna start stalking you. Every time you post, you give me something to think about. 
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by The Nagel:
i look around at the magic of life... i look at the one real miracle we can all see, the birth of a baby, and i just cannot bring myself to believe that it's all just a giantic cosmological Oops.
i understand people who tell me that can't make themselves accept the concept of a God, because i cannot make myself believe it's all an accident with no purpose.
God? i dunno. Jesus? i dunno.
but i know it wasn't an accident. if it was, then why not just everyone pick up a handy revolver and check out now? it won't make any difference in the end. so what if you hurt people that love you? they can use the next round and end their own hurt.
i don't know about an eternal reward, or heaven or hell and all that.. most of it really is just silly superstition and fear. but if there is no underlying purpose for us being here, then there is no purpose for us to continue existing.
art, science, knowledge.. nothing matters, it's all an accident. so why bother?
=====================================================================
Yup. Cosmological Oops, I think.
Childbirth is not an actual miracle. There's no magic involved. It is the result of a biological process. All animals do it. Some don't even attach the significance to it that we humans do. Hell, some HUMANS don't even attach any significance to it.
Even accidents can have a purpose-even if it doesn't become apparent til way after the fact.
There IS order in chaos.
I'm sure that a lot of people that become disillusioned with religion do take up that revolver and end it all. Some people just can't handle the thought that maybe this is all we get.
Some people like me believe that if this is all we get then we better make the best of it while we're here.
I don't like to waste one minute of my life. Good, bad or ugly I'm going to live it to the fullest I can possibly experience it because the minute or so I spent typing this sentence is already gone and I ain't getting it back.
Some people spend their entire lives so afraid of dying that they obsess over it and make up grand stories about mansions in the sky and a warm, fuzzy place where hurt doesn't exist-and I'll admit, it is a nice thought-especially when you're busy slogging through this life.
But I don't believe it for a minute. I think 'heaven' or 'hell' is right here, right now.
Try if you will, to remember back when you were a very young child-back before you got taught about god and rules and regulations and rituals and all the self-flagellation that religion heaps upon us.
Remember back before ya got jaded- when you awoke from sleep all wide-eyed and hungry for more input. ANY input, and every day was a brand-new thing just waiting to see what ya could do with it before it was gone.
Life didn't have to have a point. It just WAS, and that was good enough.
I never lost that view, and because of that, I don't feel the need to hand my life's direction over to some mystical man in the sky.
I don't believe that life is all about the END because I'm not the least bit worried bout the end.
It's what is here and now that concerns me because it's the only part I can actually DO anything about.
I think that if ya spend your whole life worrying about how it ends-you end up wasting much of all that life worrying bout whether or not ya did it right.
I think that if yer doin' it right-you'll wanna put off that lead lobotomy for awhile. You'll be havin' WAY too much fun.
Well ya' sure do waste a lot of that quality time around here!
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
Nagel I guess unless you are an atheist you can't understand. There is plenty of purpose to life, and especially if you're lucky enough to live it without the worry of "offending" a mythical man in the sky and buying a ticket to hell. Why would anyone want to pick up a gun and "end it all" when they have family to love, friends, activities, and even if they don't there are still plenty of things in the world worth living for. Life's a trip, get in, sit down, hang on, LIVE IT. Sometimes I think there's so much to life that's there's not enough time in the day to live it. I could ask what's the purpose of living if all you're thinking about is an afterlife? Why not pick up a gun end it all and go on to those streets of gold and mansions?
No purpose to life? I've posted this before and I mean it sincerely, I can't imagine a better life than the one I have right here right now.
i used to be athiest.
even now i hang on the edge... as Unob says, i'm a semi-athiestic Deist. i think he's likley correct, for the most part.
i had somethign happen that gave me reason to believe in a creator... not like bill's lord god-almighty watchin every little thing we do kind of creator, but one who started it all form the big bang forward, someone who started it all, with a purpose behind it. i can't pretend to fathom what kind of purpose, but a purpose ne'er the less.
i guess it comes down to the great age old philosphical question of ' why are we here?'
there more to us that spending all our time on our knees heaping praise on our creator.. he wouldn't want that. what kind of egomaniacal entity would make us, juts so he'd have someone to worship him? that dog won't hunt.
and there is more to it than ' run around, enjoy yourself, and have a good time. "
even more than ' learn all you can, do all you can, to make tomorrows children's live even better than yours'
i don't know what i mean... i juts know that .. all this <points around at everything> isn't enough, just by itself. the only 'purpose' for a truly creator-less existance is for us to be in servitude to our children, and theirs. to promote and increase knowledge for future generations, and add a financial background for them to continue the work with.
but to what end? so they can do the same thing? forever? why bother?
Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Pup, you should have a reward of some kind. You hit the nail right on the head.
I'm gonna start stalking you. Every time you post, you give me something to think about.
Oh aye.. pup can get deep when he wants to. he's a smart fella, don't let that mullet fool ya
There's more to life than "running around and having a good time." There's spending time with family and friends, laughing, loving family and friends, making a happy home. I have never felt in servitude to my children. I had them with the intent of making their life as good as I possibly could, having grandchildren to enjoy and watch grow up. Financially they will of course have anything we have when we go, but the way life goes that could be nothing and if we don't prepare them to make it on their own we will have failed them. It can go around in circles I guess because I ask what's the point of having this life if someone has another planned for you? Why would a "creator" put you here for a certain length of time and then take you to another life? This life is my idea of heaven and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else or live a different one. It would take a long time for me to explain why I feel like I do about it but the idea of "heaven" sounds creepy and very unappealing to me. The "streets of gold", the "mansions", the creepy angels with wings always sounded awful to me. This existence may not be enough for some, but it's plenty for me.
Well, speaking for myself, I see birth, as I see life, as a miraculous process where two individuals create a third that takes on traits of each yet is entirely different. A physical entity with a spirit/soul inside and living as a unit where the flesh lives to die but the inner spirit/soul remains living and has a destiny apart from the physical body. No I cannot prove any of this but it is my belief based upon what I understand Scripture to say unto us. I look at physical death as the extinguishing of a light, lights out, so to say and the physical body lives no more but returns to the elements. The essence of the person, however, I fully believe continues on, in spirit form. When you speak of homes or dwellings in heaven I view that is the same as I would view a home but I don't view it as physical wood/brick/mortar. i believe that the essence of a person will continue to live in a form and way that none of us can conceive of at this time.
Just as we entered life as an unknown at the times of our birth I believe it will be similar at death, as for entering a unknown existence. unlike birth, however, I do believe that our essence/ spirit entity will have intelligence and capabilities that we have developed as being human. By that I mean I believe we will be able to recognize persons (other spirit bodies) as we inherit and are clothed with our "glorified" bodies. I further do not think Scripture teaches that these bodies will be sexual or diverse as we exist in a human world. I believe that in the coming life we will recognize God for God and we won't be living in Faith as we do today.
As for those who die without God's salvation, die without Christ, I do believe their spirit/souls will face a Judgment, at some future time, just as Christians/believers will face a Judgment. As for what the aftermath is or eternal destiny of our souls/spirits I have to say I am not fully convinced as to what that fate is. If one takes literally John 3:16 then those who place their faith in Christ will see/experience everlasting (eternal life) but that leaves the fate of those who don't to be to perish. Is this a second death then? A death of the soul/spirit where the soul/spirit of the person ceases to exist and it truly becomes "the end". Others believe that hell or eternal punishment awaits everyone that does not believe in Christ or does not accept God's provision of escape. Some believe that all enter into a holding zone from which you proceed to paradise or unto torment. I do believe that there exist, for many, a fate of eternal punishment and torment where life never ends but there exist torment and pain. Some have said that eternal torment would be living apart from God knowing that did not have to be the case.
As for our life here being an accident, a freak occurrence, I also cannot conceive of that. Many also ask how could a "Good and Righteous God' ever send anyone to Hell (if such a place of torment exist, and I believe it does). Besides trying to use human reasoning to answer questions about God I believe that the question is biased and prejudiced in it's conception. The thought is that God is actively assigning various individuals to eternal separation from Him, to Death, or to Torment but I believe differently. I believe that God passed judgment upon sin itself, and sinfulness, a verdict that will be enforced, in time. I also believe though that God allowed and provided for an escape from that penalty of punishment for humanity by taking upon Himself that punishment. Sin is to be punished and atoned for and God would be just in applying that sentence upon sin and all sinners but God also is compassionate.
God being compassionate and loving, however, also provided an escape clause or provision whereby individuals under the curse of sin could escape this judgment upon sin. It isn't a personal judgment upon the individual as much as it is a judgment upon sin and since no (human) on lives a sinless life then we all are under the penalty of sin, our spirit/souls that is. God's escape or atonement for sin was at one time enacted by priest once a year as they made sacrifice (a blood sacrifice) for the sins of the people. Christ, however, was God in human flesh, perfection in human flesh that was not under a penalty of sin yet took upon him humanities sin by dying on the cross providing for a perfect blood sacrifice which would perfectly atone for sin and thereby provide escape from the penalty/judgment upon sin. God sends no one to hell or eternal judgment but rather the verdict upon sin was long before man was. The verdict upon sin was a standing order awaiting to be enforced, in time. God did though provide humanity with a way of escape or a way to remove the judgment of sin from their lives and thereby remove the judgment of sinfulness itself. That way, and only way, is faith in Jesus Christ blood, accepting His sacrifice, on the cross, as our own sacrifice for our sins. Looking unto Him as our savior and His ability to protect us from the coming judgment upon humanity's sins and sinfulness.
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
=====================================================================
Yup. Cosmological Oops, I think.
Childbirth is not an actual miracle. There's no magic involved. It is the result of a biological process. All animals do it. Some don't even attach the significance to it that we humans do. Hell, some HUMANS don't even attach any significance to it.
Even accidents can have a purpose-even if it doesn't become apparent til way after the fact.
There IS order in chaos.
I'm sure that a lot of people that become disillusioned with religion do take up that revolver and end it all. Some people just can't handle the thought that maybe this is all we get.
Some people like me believe that if this is all we get then we better make the best of it while we're here.
I don't like to waste one minute of my life. Good, bad or ugly I'm going to live it to the fullest I can possibly experience it because the minute or so I spent typing this sentence is already gone and I ain't getting it back.
Some people spend their entire lives so afraid of dying that they obsess over it and make up grand stories about mansions in the sky and a warm, fuzzy place where hurt doesn't exist-and I'll admit, it is a nice thought-especially when you're busy slogging through this life.
But I don't believe it for a minute. I think 'heaven' or 'hell' is right here, right now.
Try if you will, to remember back when you were a very young child-back before you got taught about god and rules and regulations and rituals and all the self-flagellation that religion heaps upon us.
Remember back before ya got jaded- when you awoke from sleep all wide-eyed and hungry for more input. ANY input, and every day was a brand-new thing just waiting to see what ya could do with it before it was gone.
Life didn't have to have a point. It just WAS, and that was good enough.
I never lost that view, and because of that, I don't feel the need to hand my life's direction over to some mystical man in the sky.
I don't believe that life is all about the END because I'm not the least bit worried bout the end.
It's what is here and now that concerns me because it's the only part I can actually DO anything about.
I think that if ya spend your whole life worrying about how it ends-you end up wasting much of all that life worrying bout whether or not ya did it right.
I think that if yer doin' it right-you'll wanna put off that lead lobotomy for awhile. You'll be havin' WAY too much fun.
first.. not miracle as in handed down from on high.. just miraculous because of what it is...if babies were a real true god given miracle, the way bill looks at it, then no one would be given one who wasn't able to cope with it... a glass of water to a man lost i nthe desert is a life saveing miracle. to a man drowning in a lake, it's really not helpful. a baby to a couple that's been trying for 10 years is a miracle - one concieved by a 14 year old who thought she wanted more than she was ready to give is a nightmare.
unfortunatly for your point, while i DO understand it, as far back as i remember i always needed to know the why's about everything.. how does this work?.. why does it work that way?... what happens if you move this to here? why did that happen? where do you keep the band-aids? How do i get to the hospital from here?
even as a kid just existing wasn't enough. i had to know WHY i was doing what i was doing.... why am i playing with the Lego blocks? to build an awsome space ship. why am i going to school? cause my mom will strangle me if i don't.
why are we here? to drink a lot and dance with girls? i don't think so. are we here to spend every free minute praiseing god? i don't think so. i think the truth lies someplace between those two.
to drink a lot and dance with jesus? ok, maybe not.
you're a smart guy Pup... more wisdom in your head than you typically let on. i don't always agree with your words, but i've always respected them...
but for me, Oops juts doesn't feel right. it's not enough. things work to intracately, to exactly to have just 'happened'. i know the story about the guy with a box and a bunch of parts for a watch.... no mater how much you shake it , it will never just ' accidently' fall back together as a working watch.... i think it's a stupid comparison... because no matter how hard he tries, a skilled watchmaker can't just think a rolex into existance either. it's not a fair analogy.
i find it as much of a stretch to think that this planet and all the variying life on it, working together as a whole, woven so minutely together than the sudden extinction of one species could lead to the extinction of most of hte others was just an accident as i do to think that some bearded guy in a dress plopped down two ready made humans 6000 years ago in the middle of a garden... in the middle of a desert and that later the bearded one filled up the whole earth with water and killed everyone except for one family and 2 of everything on a (comparatively) tiny boat.
to me, neither idea holds water. so to speak.
a coupel of people have asked me why i waste time on these forums... i guess it's because i'm searching for the Why.
i think it unlikely i'll find it in here.... or anywhere else. but if you don't search, you can't find....
shut up bill, there's no WHY in your book either. some what's and how's, but no why.
Originally Posted by Jennifer:
There's more to life than "running around and having a good time." There's spending time with family and friends, laughing, loving family and friends, making a happy home. I have never felt in servitude to my children. I had them with the intent of making their life as good as I possibly could, having grandchildren to enjoy and watch grow up. Financially they will of course have anything we have when we go, but the way life goes that could be nothing and if we don't prepare them to make it on their own we will have failed them. It can go around in circles I guess because I ask what's the point of having this life if someone has another planned for you? Why would a "creator" put you here for a certain length of time and then take you to another life? This life is my idea of heaven and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else or live a different one. It would take a long time for me to explain why I feel like I do about it but the idea of "heaven" sounds creepy and very unappealing to me. The "streets of gold", the "mansions", the creepy angels with wings always sounded awful to me. This existence may not be enough for some, but it's plenty for me.
i don't know. that's kind of what i'm asking as well
the typical stories of heaven and the afterlife do seem pretty lame... spending eternity singing songs to some dude and his kid? i'm gonna give that a big fat pass.
having an ultimate goal isn't the same as having it all planned out for us. there's no promise we are going to be able to grow into whatever it was he had in mind when he started the whole project.
and for the record, your first line above is what i define as running around and having a good time
i didn't mean to imply ' party non-stop till you die'. i apologize if that's the way you took it.... and yeah, it kind is what it implies, but that wasn't what i meant. i mean, enjoying life, doing what you like to do, being happy'.
in the end, on the grand scale, that's just as hollow as singing praise to daddy and junior for eternity.
but thank you for the words... it does provide food for thought.
Originally Posted by gbrk:
Well, speaking for myself, I see birth, as I see life, as a miraculous process where two individuals create a third that takes on traits of each yet is entirely different.
good words. that's one of the things i like best about you... you phrase things to show that these are your words, your thoughts and beliefs.. and that your not trying to pass down gods law as you see fit.
thanks for the thigns to think about
Nagel-
I always wanted to know the whys, too. That's why I'm still lookin'.
But I'm not so hungry and desperate for answers that I'd start making them up-OR believing anything anybody who claims to be an authority tells me like a lotta believers might.
What I meant by "good enough" was "this life, here is good enough for me." When I was very young-This is how I thought. Only later did people start complicating it with mores and rules and supernatiral consequences for disobeying them.
Now I'm just as 'moral 'as any believer-maybe at times even more so because *I* haven't got a divine "easy button" when I screw up.
I understand that religion is about control-but control in a good way-at least that's how it works on paper. People when left to their own devices who haven't been shown that doing bad things hurts other people and in turn hurts them will tend to keep doing bad things. It's just not conducive to having a courteous society when this happens.
But I've seen that those rules and regs get abused and misused a lot by people who have agendas. People who want money and/or recognition or even power. Like any laws-They only work as well as the people who abide by them.
The creation of a 'heaven' or 'hell' is just the made-up reward or punishment threatened for not following the rules. Simple folks need simple ideas. It worked some back when but I see the perverted thing it has become nowadays. People are still believing it because it's all they've ever known. The logic I guess being-Why question it if that's all there is. Nuf said.
I dunno WHERE all this magical mystical stuff BeeG talks about-and that completely insane strange stuff that Windy and Skippy comes from... I guess it's just there to reinforce the 'yer really gonna get it if ya don't toe the line' idea.
Religion plays upon the two strongest human feelings. Desire and fear. Control them and you've got everybodyby the shorthairs.
The childbirth thing? It's a process. When it happens finally after it hasn't for ever and a day-then it's an accident. A fortunate one in this case. Just like any process, certain conditions have to be met before it can happen like it's supposed to. Ever notice that it's only a miracle if ya didn't think it would happen? And that's for the GOOD things. When it's a bad thing it's called a nightmare or a disaster. Same idea-just one of 'em is desireable and one is not.
Nuthin' personal, but those Rolex watch parts make a lousy analogy.
Those watch parts aren't organic, living things and they're certainly not sentient. They are inanimate.
If they were organic living things-programmed with DNA to eventually be a Rolex-you could add water and a couple millivolts or some heat and watch 'em go back to being a Rolex just like Dolly the sheep.
Though it would truly suck to have to feed your watch and take it out for a whizz every so often...
quote: Originally Posted by Jennifer:There's more to life than "running around and having a good time." There's spending time with family and friends, laughing, loving family and friends, making a happy home. I have never felt in servitude to my children. I had them with the intent of making their life as good as I possibly could, having grandchildren to enjoy and watch grow up.
Financially they will of course have anything we have when we go, but the way life goes that could be nothing and if we don't prepare them to make it on their own we will have failed them. It can go around in circles I guess because I ask what's the point of having this life if someone has another planned for you?
Why would a "creator" put you here for a certain length of time and then take you to another life? This life is my idea of heaven and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else or live a different one. It would take a long time for me to explain why I feel like I do about it but the idea of "heaven" sounds creepy and very unappealing to me. The "streets of gold", the "mansions", the creepy angels with wings always sounded awful to me. This existence may not be enough for some, but it's plenty for me.
Yet, Jennifer,
Can you prove, are you so absolutely sure, that this life is all there is; that there is no afterlife? Are you so 110% sure that there is no eternal life -- that you will risk your children's eternal life?
Just on the slim chance that there really is an eternal life -- can you see how your attitude has cheated your children of their eternal life?
This brief life, good or bad, long or short, is but a sigh when compared to eternity. I used the analogy of your being given all the wealth of the world for ONE DAY -- and asked if you would trade your full life for that one day. But, let's put this in reference to your children. Would you trade their eternal life -- for one day of wealth, fame, or whatever? Life is but a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. This life is not all there is -- it is only the dressing room for the wedding, the preparation room -- for your eternal life.
What really matters is where you -- and your children -- and all you loved ones; will spend that eternity. Choosing for yourself and ignoring God is one thing. BUT, choosing for you family, your children, and ignoring God is quite another. Think about it. If not for your sake, then, for those you love.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote: Originally Posted by Jennifer:There's more to life than "running around and having a good time." There's spending time with family and friends, laughing, loving family and friends, making a happy home. I have never felt in servitude to my children. I had them with the intent of making their life as good as I possibly could, having grandchildren to enjoy and watch grow up.
Financially they will of course have anything we have when we go, but the way life goes that could be nothing and if we don't prepare them to make it on their own we will have failed them. It can go around in circles I guess because I ask what's the point of having this life if someone has another planned for you?
Why would a "creator" put you here for a certain length of time and then take you to another life? This life is my idea of heaven and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else or live a different one. It would take a long time for me to explain why I feel like I do about it but the idea of "heaven" sounds creepy and very unappealing to me. The "streets of gold", the "mansions", the creepy angels with wings always sounded awful to me. This existence may not be enough for some, but it's plenty for me.
Yet, Jennifer,
Can you prove, are you so absolutely sure, that this life is all there is; that there is no afterlife? Are you so 110% sure that there is no eternal life -- that you will risk your children's eternal life?
Just on the slim chance that there really is an eternal life -- can you see how your attitude has cheated your children of their eternal life?
This brief life, good or bad, long or short, is but a sigh when compared to eternity. I used the analogy of your being given all the wealth of the world for ONE DAY -- and asked if you would trade your full life for that one day. But, let's put this in reference to your children. Would you trade their eternal life -- for one day of wealth, fame, or whatever? Life is but a blink of the eye when compared to eternity. This life is not all there is -- it is only the dressing room for the wedding, the preparation room -- for your eternal life.
What really matters is where you -- and your children -- and all you loved ones; will spend that eternity. Choosing for yourself and ignoring God is one thing. BUT, choosing for you family, your children, and ignoring God is quite another. Think about it. If not for your sake, then, for those you love.
God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,
Bill
============================================================================
*sigh* Does this dude sound like a rusty, cobwebbed version of a Kenny Chesney song or what?
"Don't Blink."
That guilt/scare tactic doesn't work on non-superstitious people, BeeG.
Atheism by definition is a LACK of belief in god.
You don't have to prove something you don't believe in.
The burden of proof is on the believers.
I don't have to prove it bill, I know there's no god. You brainwash your kids and make little zombie fundies out of them but leave mine alone. How I raise my kids is no business of yours or anyone else.
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
============================================================================
*sigh* Does this dude sound like a rusty, cobwebbed version of a Kenny Chesney song or what?
"Don't Blink."
That guilt/scare tactic doesn't work on non-superstitious people, BeeG.
Atheism by definition is a LACK of belief in god.
You don't have to prove something you don't believe in.
The burden of proof is on the believers.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
No pup, the burden of proof will be on death. The death of anyone.
I thought that was established many times here already.
.
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
============================================================================
*sigh* Does this dude sound like a rusty, cobwebbed version of a Kenny Chesney song or what?
"Don't Blink."
That guilt/scare tactic doesn't work on non-superstitious people, BeeG.
Atheism by definition is a LACK of belief in god.
You don't have to prove something you don't believe in.
The burden of proof is on the believers.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
No pup, the burden of proof will be on death. The death of anyone.
I thought that was established many times here already.
.
========================================================================
Whaddyaf#$*in'kiddinme?
Death only proves that life is finite.
It does not prove either the existence or nonexistance of any god.
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
Originally Posted by INVICTUS:
Originally Posted by Road Puppy:
============================================================================
*sigh* Does this dude sound like a rusty, cobwebbed version of a Kenny Chesney song or what?
"Don't Blink."
That guilt/scare tactic doesn't work on non-superstitious people, BeeG.
Atheism by definition is a LACK of belief in god.
You don't have to prove something you don't believe in.
The burden of proof is on the believers.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
No pup, the burden of proof will be on death. The death of anyone.
I thought that was established many times here already.
.
========================================================================
Whaddyaf#$*in'kiddinme?
Death only proves that life is finite.
It does not prove either the existence or nonexistance of any god.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
You know I ain't kidden.
.