Razzle dazzle, jibber jabber, smoke and mirrors, fundy nonsense.

Crusty it's funny, when its something that he has to twist to try to reconcile, it is a long and convoluted post. But when something he wants to hang his hat on, it's a straight "The bible says it and I believe it!!" Crazy.

Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus Christ, her Son, is God.

Mary gave birth to one divine Person, not one man. When you separate

Jesus from his divine nature into to different births. That's heresy.

 

 

Hi Vic,

 

Going with what you have written -- God is not God, for God died.   Now, you and I both know that God cannot die, for He is preexisting and eternal.  God is not a created being -- so, He cannot be born and He cannot die.  If He could be born or could die, He would not be God.

 

However, the human nature of Jesus, which was fully Man, was born through the womb of Mary --  and did die!

 

So, are you telling us that God can die, so therefore is not God?  Or, are you telling us that Jesus did not die on the cross?

 

The Son of God was not born and did not die.

 

The human nature of Jesus was born and did die.

 

So, was Mary the Mother of God, meaning He was born and cannot be God?

 

Or, was Mary the mother of our Lord Jesus, who was born and did die?

 

What say you, my Friend?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,l

 

Bill

John 1:30 " I and My Father are one.” Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His ... He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ' Show us the Father'?” The bible is quite clear that the father and the son are one. There is no distinction between the "human nature". Jesus is fully human and fully divine. If you have seen Me, you've seen my Father. Nuff said.

Hi VP,

 

I will have to ask you the same questions I asked Vic:   Can God die?

 

From what I asked Vic:

 

Going with what you have written -- God is not God, for God died.   Now, you and I both know that God cannot die, for He is preexisting and eternal.  God is not a created being -- so, He cannot be born and He cannot die.  If He could be born or could die, He would not be God.

 

However, the human nature of Jesus, which was fully Man, was born through the womb of Mary --  and did die!

 

So, are you telling us that God can die, so therefore is not God?  Or, are you telling us that Jesus did not die on the cross?

 

The Son of God was not born and did not die.

 

The human nature of Jesus was born and did die.

 

So, was Mary the Mother of God, meaning He was born and cannot be God?

 

Or, was Mary the mother of our Lord Jesus, who was born and did die?

 

What say you, my Friend?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

____________________

Jibber jabber.

Crusty, my Friend,

 

That is, beyond all doubt, the most intelligent post you have made in a very long time.  Keep up the good work!

 

Bless your little old heart!

 

Bill

If you choose to make a separation between the Father and the Son, that's your perogative. But you are incorrect. The concept of the trinity is indeed complex. But the one thing that the Bible tells us is that THe Son and the Father are ONE GOD. Both equally God. So yes, the Son of God was crucified and died- and raised up on the third day. Mary, Mother of God, suffered watching Him on the cross. Your heretical and erroneous statements that Jesus is NOT fully God are understandable given the complexity of the Trinity.i suggest you study the trinity in more detail. Start with this and ponder "If you see Me, you've seen the Father". I pray this will lead you to a better understanding of the Holy Trinity.

_________________

I wish I could find any intelligence in any of your posts. 

 

Bless your tiny little heart.

Hi VP,

 

You tell me, "If you choose to make a separation between the Father and the Son, that's your perogative.  But you are incorrect.  The concept of the trinity is indeed complex.  But the one thing that the Bible tells us is that THe Son and the Father are ONE GOD.  Both equally God. So yes, the Son of God was crucified and died- and raised up on the third day."

 

True, we have one God; but, He is manifested in three totally distinct Persons:  Father, Son, Holy Spirit.  Each are equal, each shares all the attributes of the other, each is God -- but, they are separate and distinct.

 

When Christ says in John 10:30 "I and the Father are one" -- He means that He and the Father are one in essence; but, they are two separate, distinct Persons of the Godhead.

 

God the Father did not die.   God the Son did not die.  Jesus, the human nature of God the Son, died on the cross.  He was born of a woman, He suffered, and He died -- that He might be like His brethren in all things (Hebrews 2:17).

 

Mary was the mother of the Lord, the human nature of Jesus Christ.   He died and she died.   God the Son did not die -- for God cannot die.  If He could die -- He would NOT be God; for God is eternal, preexisting.   There is no way that God can die -- just as God cannot be born -- for He is preexisting from eternity to eternity.  Therefore, since He cannot be born -- He CANNOT have a mother.  So simple even a caveman could understand it.  Wonder why a Roman Catholic cannot?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

So Jesus isn't God the Son?  Jibber jabber nonsense.  Just a big old #7.

 

DID GOD DIE?   If so, how can He be God, how can He be eternal?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Sorry bill but I will stick with the bible on this one. Not your convoluted attempt to discredit the words of God. U could do some reading to better understand- I'm sure there is lots of good information out there- or you could talk to your pastor. Good luck!

Amazed that you can say "Mary is the mother of our Lord" But NOT "Mary is the mother of God". I really am questioning what kind of teaching you are trying to accomplish with the statement that God is not the same as Lord. Seriously....

Hi VP,

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

So simple! God and Jesus are ONE GOD. As written in the Bible. Fellow catholic friends, is there any way to make this more crystal clear?

There's no need to be any more clear, some people can't see clear, they
are too far detached and clear isn't given to them.

 

But, VP, my Friend,

 

You are dancing around the questions:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

If you cannot answer the questions, I will understand.   But, if you are afraid to answer the questions -- that is another story.  Which is it, my Friend -- CANNOT or AFRAID?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

It's neither- I've answered them- repeatedly. God and the Som are ONE God If you've seen Jesus, you've seen the Father I am afraid of nothing, as I am certain of my faith. Why don't you read the Creed perhaps that will help you understand. There is no separation between the trinity. One God.

Just one more thing to show me none of us can know for sure what the Bible means, or if it's even true. Some of you chose to believe it, but I'm one that refuses to blindly believe in something. I’ve always believed the Bible to be full of contradictions. This discussion just goes to show one of the many contradictions that's in the Bible.

 

This is two of many scriptures that refer to a difference between God & Son.

John 17:3 mentions TWO individuals. Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as "the only true God".

In Mark 13:32, Jesus said no one would know when God will come, not the angels or the Son, but only the Father. If the Father & the Son are one, how could the Son not know of things the Father knows?

 

BUT…..according to these two scriptures, they are ONE & the same.

Matthew 1:23 - Behold a virgin shall be with child, and bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Matthew 28:18 - And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Notice it says ALL power.

 

BUT......when Jesus was about to die, He showed subjection to his "Father" when praying. Who was Jesus praying to? Himself, or God? When He said: “Let, not my will, but yours take place,” was He talking to Himself or God? And then, at his death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Was He crying out to Himself or to his Father who was supposedly in Heaven?

 

After Jesus died, who resurrected him, after being in the tomb for three days? Since he was supposed to be dead, could He resurrect himself? If Jesus could resurrect Lazarus from the dead, could He not resurrect Himself from the dead?

I could go on & on, but you get the idea. If that's not contradiction, then I don’t know what is.

____________________

So, Jesus isn't God.  Who was he then?

 

Oh, wait, I get it now.  The Holy Trinity as you see it is God, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible. 

Hi VP,

 

Still dancing!   But, now I can see why -- you study the "Creed" instead of the Bible, God's Word!

 

So, with you it is always -- what does the Vatican say, not what does the Bible say?   Okay, whatever rings your chimes.

 

Since you cannot directly answer the question and insist upon dancing, we will just move on.

 

But, before we do -- since I know we have one God, manifested (revealed) in three distinct Persons -- I will try once again to see if you are wearing Vatican blinders:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

If you cannot answer the questions, I will understand.   But, if you are afraid to answer the questions -- that is another story.  Which is it, my Friend -- CANNOT or AFRAID?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

Complete and utter heresy.

One final thing- you do not know me. I read my BIBLE daily. It tells me that God and Jesus are ONE. Because I suggested you could expound your comprehension by studying the creed, you declare that I now to the Vatican? Couldn't be further from the truth. I worship ONE GOD- and pray in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If that doesn't make me a good enough Christian according to your standards, so be it. But do not play diversion tactics and games with me. Yes, Mary is the Mother of our Lord. Mary is the Mother of God. If you choose not to accept that, no skin off my nose. But I have shown you where it IS biblical, and leave it at that. You are not doing the work of The Lord demanding people comply with your rules or they must be "dancing". Some of us simply do not care to play your twisted mind games. I know what I know to be true, as revealed by the Holy Spirit, as written in the word of God, an nothing you can say will minimize or negate my faith.

vplee, Billy dislikes you, he's going to say anything he can to discredit you. The ole fool is so jealous of you that he is blinded by the fact that most of us doesn't believe anything he says. Your Christianity shows, his does not, & that, my friend, he cannot stand. You would be better off putting him on block.

----------------------------------

Not only does Billie boy dislike Veep because her Christianity shows and his not... That fact is compounded by the fact that Veep is of the female persuasion! Billie could never bring himself to acknowledge that a female could be even equal to, let alone superior to, him or any male...

In his mind, American females have arrogantly broken the bonds of subservitude. As he recently acknowledged, his interests lay in the hands of men (so to speak)...

LOL

 

Hi VP,

 

Please explain how this graphic, shown below, is heresy.

 

And, while you are at it, you might want to address these questions:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

I am really eager to hear you explain that.

 

Or, will you just dance faster and faster -- hoping the questions will go away?  My Friend, when the Truth confronts you -- it will not go away, nor can it be hidden under a fancy Vatican robe.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

This over simplified graphic does nothing to explain the nature of the Holy Trinity. You are trying to simplify something which cannot be done. Jesus is FULLY GOD an FULLY human. Pray about it. But you will never convince me that Jesus and God are not the same. I am quite frankly shocked that you differentiate between "Lord" and "God". There, in that statement lies your heresy.

And again, I am fully clothed in the Truth of our Lord. You do not intimidate me, nor bring forth anything for me to dance around. But I will not give credence to over simplified renditions of the mysterious and complex Trinity. If that is what you need to do to deny Mary as the mother of God, so be it. But as for me, I will go with the Bible.

Actually Jesus isn't so much a human as he is a Divine Being.

Hi VP,

 

I agree with you that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man.  However, only the Man nature was born and died; so only the man Nature can have a mother.

 

While I agree that man cannot fully explain the Trinity; we do our best.  If you have a better way of explaining the Trinity than the graphics I presented -- please do share that with all of us.

 

But, that said, you tell me you are not dancing around the issue -- but, you are certainly digging a very deep hole to avoid answering these very simple questions.  Either you believe what is written or you disagree with what is written.  So, how difficult is it to choose one or the other -- and tell us why?

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

TAKE YOUR PICK.  WHICH FITS BEST FOR YOU?

OR, DO YOU HAVE A BETTER WAY TO ILLUSTRATE THE TRINITY?

 

 

For the final time, God has a mother because JESUS CHRIST has a mother. God and Jesus are one. (If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father) I'm not digging a hole, I stand by my statements.

 

We read in the Bible:

 

Hebrews 2:17, "Therefore, He (Jesus) had to be made like His brethren (all Christian believers)in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people."

 

So, Jesus Christ, while fully God, was also fully Man.  In His man nature, He was like all believers -- except that He (and He alone) was sinless.  Being like all believers, He was born of a woman, and He died on the cross.

 

His human nature, Lord, being like us, could be born and die.  GOD cannot be born and God cannot die.   So, Jesus our Lord had a mortal mother, Mary.  GOD, being eternal and preexisting -- DOES NOT HAVE A MOTHER.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

So, VP, my Friend,

 

Since you are so certain, it should be simple for you to answer my questions:

 

Was God born?  If so, He is a created being and not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   How does one who has never been born have a mother?

 

Did God die?   If so, He is not God.  The Bible tells us that God is eternal, preexisting.   If God is preexisting, eternity to eternity -- how can He die?

 

Yet, the human nature of God the Son, whom we call Jesus was born and did die.  God is LORD, the human nature of Jesus is Lord.

 

So, VP, please explain to me how God who was never born -- HAS A MOTHER.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I do not claim to know the complex nature of the trinity. I suppose that will be on my list should I ever be Blessed to be in His presence.however I do know is that God and the Son are ONE. What I do know? Is that I will not be bullied with your repetitive questions that have no answer. Yes, God was pre-existing. But he was also BORN into the human world. If and when you get to Heaven, you let us know, ok? Because the Trinity is a mystery of faith. That's your problem- you have to label and compartmentalise everything. You can't do that, as it is impossible for us to understand the many mysteries of God.

V, I thought you had Billy on block?

Temporary lapse- back on now

OMG, the fundy jibber jabber may never end.

_________________________________________________

Agree 100%

Skippy

___________________________________________________________________________

 

As Desi would say.

Splain to me.

Luke 24:

 

 

36 ¶And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

 

 37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

 

 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

 

 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

 40 And when he had thus spoken, he hewed them his hands and his feet.

 

 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

 

 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

 

 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

 

 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

 

 46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus itbehoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

 

 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

 48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

 49 ¶And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

 

 50 ¶And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.

 

 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

 

 52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

 

 53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

 

Obviously Bill;

        Separate  Personages

Skippy

Hi Skippy!!

'Zup, Skippy.

Hi Skippy,

 

Yes, God is a Triune God:  Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- three distinct Persons, one God.

 

Yet, in your Mormon church there are literally millions of gods, for even the Creation decision was made by the Committee of Gods.  And, all good Mormon men can become gods.  All the Mormon women can do is to bear millions of babies for this new Mormon god, an exalted man, who has been given his own planet and needs her as a brood mare for populating his new planet.

 

So, when you and I speak of God -- we are talking apples and oranges.  The God of which I speak in the preexisting, eternal God who created the heavens and the earth, i..e, the entire universe.

 

The god of which you speak was an exalted man who became a god, has his own goddess wife as brood mare, and his own planet.

 

Somehow, the Mormon church never gets around to telling us who the first God was -- and where he came from -- since all Mormon gods were exalted men.   Strange phenomenon.

 

By the way, welcome back.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hey skippy! Nice to see some familiar faces;-)

From Catholic Answers: Understood correctly, the title Mother of God (Greek: Theotokos, "God-bearer") does not mean that Mary is the source of Christ's divine nature, nor does it mean Mary is the Mother of the Father or the Holy Spirit. It means Mary is Mother of the person of Jesus, who is God: The One whom [Mary] conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God." (CCC 495) Praised be Jesus forever!

Hi Nathan,

 

This is a perfect example of "double speak!"   Whoever wrote it should go into politics.
 

He starts of correctly, that Mary is NOT the Mother of God or the divine, preexisting nature of the Son.  She is only the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ.   That is what I have been writing for eons.

 

But, once he has written the truth -- the writer switches gears and contradicts himself.  First, he says that Mary is NOT the Mother of God.  And, then, he switches back and declares that Mary IS the Mother of God.   This writer should go to work for Obama; for he is a master at double speak.

 

Yes, Mary is the mother of our Lord (Luke 1:43), the human nature of Jesus Christ -- and, as such, both were born and both did die.

 

But, Mary IS NOT the Mother of God -- the God who is preexisting, never created or born.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

To correct a couple of things: 1. The writer did NOT say that Mary was not the Mother of God. Writer gave the greek translation of theotokos. 2. Women don't give birth to natures, they give birth to children. The child that came forth from Mary's womb was Jesus, who is God. Her child had a human nature and a divine nature. But to separate the two natures is heresy. Thus Christians correctly call Mary the Mother of God. Luther did, Calvin did, zwingili did, the church fathers did, etc etc! Praised be Jesus forever!

Hi Nathan,

 

You tell me, "1. The writer did NOT say that Mary was not the Mother of God. Writer gave the greek translation of theotokos."

 

From your post:

 

From Catholic Answers:  Understood correctly, the title Mother of God (Greek: Theotokos, "God-bearer") does not mean that Mary is the source of Christ's divine nature, nor does it mean Mary is the Mother of the Father, or the Holy Spirit.

 

To me, this is saying that Mary is NOT the Mother of God.

 

You tell me, "2. Women don't give birth to natures, they give birth to children.  The child that came forth from Mary's womb was Jesus, who is God.  Her child had a human nature and a divine nature."

 

True, and that human child she bore was Jesus.  She gave birth to the human nature of Jesus Christ.  You and I both know that she did NOT give birth to the divine nature of Jesus Christ, which is the preexisting, eternal God.  So, she gave birth to our Lord (Luke 1:43), Jesus -- but, she did NOT give birth to the divine eternal God.   So, Mary is the mortal mother of the human nature of Jesus; but she is NOT the Mother of God.

 

I will ask you the same question which VP danced around and would not answer:

 

1.  Was God born?  If so, He is not God, for God is eternal.

 

2.  Did God die?   If so, He is not God, for God is eternal.

 

Obviously, the answer to both questions is NO.  Only the mortal (Hebrews 2:17) human nature of Jesus Christ was born and died.

 

Finally, you tell me, "But to separate the two natures is heresy."

 

I say that Jesus Christ had two natures:  God the Son, His divine nature, eternal and preexisting.  The Son of Man, His mortal human nature (Hebrews 2:17), born of a woman and died on the cross.

 

If showing those as two distinct natures is heresy -- then, saying that God is a Trinity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit -- God manifested in three distinct Persons -- should also be a heresy in your thinking.

 

But, you and I both know that the Trinity is, indeed, God manifested in three separate, distinct Persons.  And, we both know that Jesus Christ had two separate and distinct natures:  Fully God and Fully Man.   If one is a heresy, both have to be heresies.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Jesus did/does have two natures, in one person. Both were there when Jesus was born. Jesus was born of Mary, and since He is God, and Mary is His mother, she is Mother of God! Did Jesus die? Yes! Was God born in the flesh? Yes! And Mary was His Mother! As noted previously, women don't give birth to natures. They give birth to babies! Mary's baby was, and is, and will be forever, God! Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us!

Hi Nathan,

 

So, God can die?  Okay, so when God dies -- who is then appointed to be God?

 

So, God can be born?  That means that He is not preexisting, therefore He is not God!

 

Then, you fall back upon your Mary worship:  "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us!"

 

Since God is dead, or least you tell me He died on the cross -- I suppose that is why you also call Mary the Queen of Heaven.   Could that is like Queen Elizabeth -- who when her father, the king, died -- she took over as the supreme monarchy.

 

Then, according to you, we have Queen Mary and we should all be worshiping her -- for God is dead.

 

Wow, talk about confusion.   But, my Friend, my God is NOT dead -- and Mary is just one more saint in heaven waiting for the Rapture to occur so that she can have her immortal body -- like billions of other Christian believers.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill         

So, Jesus isn't God.  Therefore he wasn't preexisting, eternal, blah, blah, blah.

 

Just more fundy nonsense.  It's amazing how you can spin something so hard and not fall over.

Hi Crusty,

 

My Friend, I feel for you.  It must be hard to always be on the outside, with little or no knowledge of the subject being discussed, and wanting so badly to be heard.   So, what do you do?  You pop in with silly numbers or with inane comments. 

 

Do you really crave attention that badly -- that you will jump into a pool which is way over your head?

 

A word of advise:  Find a good local Christ-centered, Bible-teaching Christian fellowship, get involved in their Bible study -- and after a while you will be able to discuss Christian issues with the big boys.  Then you can put away your silly comments and numbers -- and truly enjoy a civil dialogue.   I look forward to that day.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

"And why is this granted me, that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke uses the Greek word for Lord 17 times in chapter one of his Gospel, always with the meaning of God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. Therefore: Mary is the Mother of God. Those who deny this follow the heresy of Nestor, renounced at Ephesus in 431AD. You can't separate the two natures of Jesus. If Mary is only the Mother of Christ, and not the Mother of God, then only a man was born of her, and died on the Cross, not the Divine Son of God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and the Word was God. And the Word was born in the flesh of Mary, His Mother, and rightly called the Mother of God! Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee!

Hi Nathan,

 

In the Trinity, are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that same Person?  Or are they separate, distinct Persons, all within the Godhead?

 

Since the individual Persons of the Trinity are separate and have different ministries -- why cannot the two separate, distinct natures of Jesus Christ also be seen as such?   One of His nature is the eternal God the Son.  The other is the sinless mortal who came to die for His brethren (Hebrews 2:17), all who will, by grace, through faith in His finished work as He died on the cross -- believe and receive Him.

 

Trinity:  Three distinct Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

 

Jesus Christ:  Two distinct Natures:  Eternal God the Son, Sinless mortal Savior.

 

From GotQuestions.Com:  http://www.gotquestions.org/LORD-GOD-Lord-God.html

 

Bill

 

____________________

LOL.  A big old #6 of a #9.  See my reply to the copy and paste you made in the other thread.

 

Who is out of their depth?  Me for seeing through your smoke-and-mirrors, jibber jabber, or you for believing that it makes sense?

Once again: Jesus was born. Mary is His Mother. Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of God! So simple that Christians for 2000 have understood it. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee!

___

Mary was the earthly vessel by which Jesus was brought into this world. In that sense, and in no other is she is his mother.  Her role in the Savior's birth does not give her any such status as "mediatrix" or the blasphemous "co-redemptrix", both roles being promoted for her by Catholic Maryolaters. 

 

This absurd proposition, widely advocated by Catholics, though not yet officially proclaimed as doctrine, exemplifies the kinds of extreme thinking that can rdevelop from the already-exaggerated role assigned to the former virgin Mary in Catholic theology.

http://www.causes.com/actions/...diatrix-and-advocate

Contendah, Nathan said:

Once again: Jesus was born. Mary is His Mother. Jesus is God. Mary is

the Mother of God! So simple that Christians for 2000 have understood it.

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee!

 

So there you go. It's been a fact for over 2000 years, if you don't like it,

then don't. You have nothing to do with Mary the Mother of God or the true

Christian Church in the first place. Your,johnny come lately, attempt at

Christianly with your faux bible and dreamed up interpretations doesn't really

constitute what Jesus created and doesn't come close to what Jesus had

in mind. You may steal the Christian concept and the name Christian, but

that in no way means true Christian. God the Father, founder of the Church

through Christ, oriented toward the Family unit is an understanding you'll

never comprehend.

Hi Vic,

 

The web page, which is pro-Roman Catholic, which Contendah offered, tells us this:

 

The papal proclamation of Mary as the Spiritual Mother of Humanity according to her three-fold function as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, will, as it were, constitute the Church's and humanity's collective "fiat" to the Mother of God; that is, a solemn, collective "consecration" of the Church and the world to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

 

Co-Redemptrix:  Christ came to die on the cross to offer redemption to all people; Mary did nothing but provide the human womb to facilitate His birth in the same manner as His brethren (Hebrews 2:17).  How does this make her a Joint Redeemer with Christ?  Where does Mary fit into the salvation picture at all? 

 

John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, 'I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.' "

Notice that He did not say, "but through Mary and Me" -- only "but through Me."

 

Mediatrix:  What does Scripture tell us about our Mediator?  Where can anyone insert Mary into that picture?

 

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Hebrew 8:6, "But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises."

Hebrews 9:15, "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance."

Hebrew 12:24, "And to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel."

 

Advocate:   What does Scripture tell us about our Advocate before God?

 

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

 

Where does Mary fit into any of these pictures?  Certainly not in the Bible.  The only place anyone can find this kind of erroneous doctrine and teaching is in Vatican generated papers, maybe the Apocrypha, but, certainly not in the Bible.

 

Jesus Christ was born through the womb of woman so that He could be like His brethren in all things, including death.  The womb did not become deity, nor did the swaddling cloth in which He was wrapped, nor the manger in which He lay.  These are all things which were used to allow Him to be born like His brethren (Hebrews 2:17).   Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Is Mary the Spiritual Mother of Humanity?  Today, Mary's body is in a grave, while her spirit is in heaven -- just like billions of other believers.  At the Rapture, she, and all other believers, i..e., all saints -- will receive our glorified, immortal bodies.  That is the extent of her influence -- the same as billions of other saints in heaven today.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

___

So, INVICTUS, referring to what I posted above, do YOU consider Mary to be "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" ?

 

Your generalized vilification of me tells us nothing concerning where you stand on these claimed aspects of the person of Mary.

 

What say you? 

Originally Posted by Contendah:

So, INVICTUS, referring to what I posted above, do YOU consider Mary to be

"Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" ?

 

Yes I do.........

 

Closely related to the Catholic teaching on Mary's cooperation in the redemption is the    teaching that, with through and under her Son, she is Mediatrix of all graces. What    exactly does this mean?

 

The term Mediatrix in itself could refer to either the objective redemption (the once-for-all earning a title to grace for all men), to the subjective redemption (the distribution of this grace to individual men), or to both. It is most usual to use it to refer only to subjective redemption, i.e., the process of giving out the fruits of the objective redemption, throughout all centuries. We must consider whether or not the term  Mediatrix applies to all graces or only to some.

 

We will ask also about the nature of the mediation: is it only by way of intercession, that is, does Mary simply pray to her Son   that he may give us grace, or does God also use her as an instrument in distributing grace.

 

To begin, we can say without doubt that the title "Mediatrix" is justified, and applies to all graces for certain, by her cooperation in acquiring all graces on  Calvary.

 

The Second Vatican Council (Lumen gentium ## 61-62), said:

... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the      Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to      restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace.

This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the      consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore      with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being      assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold      intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us. By her motherly      love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers      and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the      Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix,      Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away,      or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature      can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer...."

 

Objection

 

Protestants object to this , saying that there is only one mediator: 1 Tim 2:5. We agree that there are many ways in which Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1) There is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man. 2) There is only one mediator whose whose work is necessary, without whom, in God's plan, there could be no salvation. 3) There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.

 

Mary differs on all three counts. 1) Mary only a creature, but it was appropriate that God be freely choose her as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Redeemer--it was she who on behalf of the whole human race consented to God's plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. 2) Her role was not necessary, since Christ was and is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator. Rather, Mary was associated with her Son by the free decision of the Father, a decision which we cannot ignore. 3) Her whole ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son, and hence we are not contradicting Lumen gentium # 62 which says no creature can be ever counted together with Him.

 

Read more:

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm 

 

"Co-Redemptrix"

http://www.catholic-forum.com/...ctracts/tract76.html

 

It was stated earlier: 

Is Mary the Spiritual Mother of Humanity?  Today, Mary's body is in a grave, while her spirit is in heaven -- just like billions of other believers.  At the Rapture, she, and all other believers, i..e., all saints -- will receive our glorified, immortal bodies.  That is the extent of her influence -- the same as billions of other saints in heaven today.

 

Answer:  Yes.  Rev 12;17 says that Mary is the mother of all who obey God's commandments.  And since she appears in heaven (Rev 12:1), clearly her body is NOT in a grave.  That and the fact that she has appeared at Lourdes, Fatima, etc also make it obvious to Christians that her body is not in a grave, and that her influence is far greater than all the others in heaven.  Which makes sense, one's Mother has influence over her children. 

 

And I'll let catholic answers explain co-redemptrix: 

It will help if you understand what the Church means by such doctrines and what it does not mean. First, the Church recognizes that Jesus in the ultimate sense is our only redeemer—plain and simple. Only God could make up for an offense against his divinity. When Jesus, the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man, he used the services of several human beings. he used prophets, the last of whom was his cousin, John the Baptist. He used St. Joseph as his foster father to protect him and to be a father to him in his formative years. Most of all, he used Mary as his mother who gave birth to him, nursed him, and nurtured him as a child. All of these people cooperated with him and his mission of salvation. He alone was the redeemer in the ultimate sense, but they cooperated with him in his work of redemption. In varying degrees they all could be called co-redeemers because of such cooperation. But because of her unique role and the degree of her cooperation, Mary is singled out. In all of humanity, God singled her out for a truly sublime role. Nursing Almighty God at her breast is beyond our ability to fully appreciate. Yet thousands of Christians since the Protestant reformation have completely ignored such sublimity.

Praised be Jesus forever!!!

Hi Nathan,

 

Since the church is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation chapters 6 - 18; how could Revelation 12 be speaking of Mary?  Revelation 12 is speaking of the nation Israel, which descended from Abraham and through the Jewish nation, we have our Savior, the Messiah.

 

My boss is a Jewish carpenter -- and He is the child being referenced in Revelation 12, which comes, or, in a sense, is birthed out of the Jewish race.

 

Revelation 12:13-14, "And when the dragon (Satan) saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman (Israel) who gave birth to the male child.  But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman (Israel), so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent."

 

We know that, during the seven year Tribulation, the Jewish believers, i.e., the remnant of Israel, will be taken to safety in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years -- to keep them safe from the Antichrist's attacks.

 

Now, when was Mary ever taken into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years to protect her?   No, my Friend, there is no way you can squeeze Mary into Revelation.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Mary, Mother of Salvation

My first personal encounter with the Blessed Virgin Mary happened while I was a student at an Evangelical Anglican seminary in England. I had been brought up as an Evangelical and found my way into the Anglican church. There I was preparing for ordination. A Catholic friend who was a Benedictine oblate suggested that I might like to visit a Catholic Benedictine monastery.

 

While there I told one of the monks that during a time of contemplative prayer I had sensed God’s presence in a very real, but feminine way. The femininity disturbed me because I knew God isn’t feminine. The monk smiled and said, "Don’t worry. That’s not God. It’s the Virgin Mary. She is the Mediatrix. She wants to help you with your prayers and bring you closer to God."

 

I was shocked. At the time the Virgin Mary played no part in my devotional life. As a good Evangelical boy I had memorized 1 Timothy 2:5, which says, "There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus." By calling Mary the "Mediatrix," he had confirmed my prejudice that Catholics believe things that contradict the Bible. It also confirmed my suspicion that Catholics gave Mary an equal status with Jesus.

 

I put this notion firmly to one side and didn’t consider it again until after I had come into the Catholic Church. This postponement was possible because Mary’s role as Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix of grace is not a formally defined dogma of the Catholic Church. It remains a pious opinion—a useful devotional and theological way of meditating on Mary.

 

My attention was drawn back to the question, however, when I was writing Mary: A Catholic/Evangelical Debate with an old friend who had attended Bob Jones University with me.

 

The rest:

http://www.catholic.com/magazi...-mother-of-salvation

 

Hi Vic and Nathan,

 

We have all heard the old saying about a person, "That guy has a face ONLY a mother could love!"

 

Well, my Friends, these recent post about the very mortal Mary -- are posts "that ONLY a Roman Catholic could believe."  And, at that, it would take a very brain-washed Roman Catholic.

 

But, hey, if that is what spins your wheel -- go for it!  Only, when you post it on the Religion Forum, i will refute that teaching -- from Scripture.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

If that's the way it is billie so be it.
Everything involving Jesus, Holy Spirit , Mary and the Bible was the wish

of God the Father. Start taking your complaints to Him. It is he who set all

this in motion. You can ignore as much of the Bible as you want, it doesn't

change anything except your after hours.

 

The question was asked:  how could Revelation 12 be speaking of Mary? Simple: Rev 12  speaks of a woman who gave birth to a male child destined to rule the world.  The child is Jesus, and Mary is His mother.  The Woman in Revelation 12 refers to 4 things (thank you to Jimmy Akin): Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.
1) She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.
2) The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, "the rest of her offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.
3)The Woman is Eve because she is part of the three-way conflict also involving her Seed and the Dragon, who is identified with the ancient serpent (the one from Eden) in 20:2. This mirrors the conflict in Genesis 3:15 between Eve, the serpent, and her unborn seed—which in turn is a symbol of the conflict between Mary, Satan, and Jesus.
4) Finally, the Woman is Mary because she is the mother of Jesus, the child who will rule the nations with a rod of iron (19:11–16).

And as for the posts on Mary, why can't you believe?  For instance:

1.  The Catholic Church said that Revelation would be included in the canon of the New Testament. 

2.  The Catholic Church said Mary was assumed into heaven.

3.  The Catholic Church said that Ignatius' letter to the Corinthians would not be included in the canon of the New Testament.

4.  The Catholic Church said that the Gospel of John would be included in the canon of the New Testament. 

5.  The Catholic Church said that the Gospel of Peter would not be included in the canon of the New Testament. 

You believe 4 of the 5 based solely on the authority of the Catholic Church, but not the 1 other item.  Why is that?

Praised be Jesus forever!!!

In your post you cited a link that contains this blasphemous Fourth Century nonsense:

 

"Hail, Mary Mother of God, venerable treasure of the whole world . . . it is you through whom the Holy Trinity is glorified and adored . . . through whom the tempter, the devil is cast down from heaven, through whom the fallen creature is raised up to heaven, through whom all creation, once imprisoned by idolatry, has reached knowledge of the truth, through whom nations are brought to repentance. (qtd. in Luigi Gambero, Mary and the Fathers of the Church: The Blessed Virgin Mary in Patristic Thought)"

 

Nuff sed.

Well Nuff, it goes on to sed:

 

Ephrem the Syrian says, "With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world"; and Antipater of Bostra, a father of the Council of Ephesus, wrote about the Blessed Virgin in the fifth century, "Hail, you who acceptably intercede as Mediatrix for mankind" (qtd. in Gambero, Mary and the Fathers).

 

These quotations can be multiplied from the liturgies and theological writings of the day. The writers’ exalted language shows how highly they thought of Mary’s role as mediator and co-redeemer. This view of Mary as Mediatrix was not a later invention, but rather comes to us from the early Church.

 

The Evangelical critic may go along with you thus far, but he still finds the title "Co-Redemptrix" a stretch. Mary may have had an intimate understanding of the redemptive work of Christ, and she may have a role as intercessor and prayer warrior, but it doesn’t necessarily follow that she is the

 

Co-Redemptrix. At this point it is worth explaining that we don’t suggest that Mary’s cooperation with God is equal to Christ’s work. It is of a different order, but it is necessary nonetheless. Mother Teresa’s words "No Mary, No Jesus" express a profound truth.

 

God chose to bring his Son into the world through the cooperation of Mary. Without that cooperation there would have been no Incarnation and therefore no Redemption.

 

Hi Vic and Nathan,

 

Vic, you copy/paste from Roman Catholic mantra:

 

Ephrem the Syrian says, "With the Mediator, you are the Mediatrix of the entire world"; and Antipater of Bostra, a father of the Council of Ephesus, wrote about the Blessed Virgin in the fifth century, "Hail, you who acceptably intercede as Mediatrix for mankind" (qtd. in Gambero, Mary and the Fathers).

 

These quotations can be multiplied from the liturgies and theological writings of the day.  The writers’ exalted language shows how highly they thought of Mary’s role as mediator and co-redeemer. This view of Mary as Mediatrix was not a later invention, but rather comes to us from the early Church.

 

Okay, you have shown us what your Roman Catholic controlled writer believed; but, if Mary is truly this "deified' person you claim her to be -- show it to us in the Bible, the Big 66.   If it is not found there, in actual words or by teaching -- IT IS NOT TRUE.   And, Mariology is NOT found there!

 

You tell me, "These quotations can be multiplied from the liturgies and theological writings of the day."

 

I don't doubt that -- for just as the Pope forced Jerome to include the Apocrypha in the Latin Vulgate translation -- could he not force other writers to write only what was needed to keep the Roman Catholic religion alive?

 

But, regardless of what anyone wrote or might write -- we can only rely upon the Bible, all 66 books, when looking for a solid foundation for our theology.   Commentaries and other history books are useful in Bible studies.  But, when push comes to shove -- only the Bible, the Big 66, can be seen as God's Written Word.  And, if we cannot find it there -- it is not Christian doctrine.

 

As you said, enough said!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Hi Vic,

 

One more thought.  Your copy/paste tells me, "God chose to bring his Son into the world through the cooperation of Mary.  Without that cooperation there would have been no Incarnation and therefore no Redemption."

 

God also chose that Jesus would be born in a stable, wrapped in swaddling cloth, and lay in a manger.   

 

So, using your logic -- the stable, the swaddling cloth, and the manger -- are also Co-Redeemers; for God chose them as part of His actions of bringing Jesus Christ to be our Redeemer.

 

Interesting!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Mary ha

God would not have acted without Mary's cooperation! Her fiat/ yes was necessary. So she co-operated with God's plan and is rightly called co-redemptrix. And something doesn't have to be in the bible to be true. God isn't bound by a book. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee!

Hi Nathan,

 

Every Christian believer who shares the Gospel is sharing in God's plan for redemption.  Christ came and died on the cross as our Redeemer.  And, before He died on the cross, He gave the Great Commission, that we should, "Go, Make disciples, Baptize them, Teach them. . .  be His witnesses in all the world"  (Matthew 28:19-20, Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).

 

So, according to your logic -- I am a Co-Redeemer.  And, every Christian who shares the Gospel is a Co-Redeemer!  Wow!

 

But, doesn't that cheapen Him as our true REDEEMER?  Isn't that rather like spitting on Him again; as we try to steal His thunder?

 

No, my Friend, I am not CO-anything with Jesus Christ -- and neither is Mary, nor any other mortal human.  We are all His very fortunate sheep, His followers.   That is what it means to be a Christian -- a Christ Follower, nothing more, nothing less. 

 

And, Mary is just a very blessed woman who is waiting in heaven right now, along with billions of other believers -- for the Rapture, when all of us will receive our immortal, glorified bodies.

 

If you are going to worship Mary for being part of His birth; you might as well worship the inn keeper for allowing them to use his stable; you might as well worship the shepherds in the fields for celebrating His birth; you might as well celebrate the Wise Men who came to worship Him; you might as well worship Herod who wanted to kill Him.  All of these folks, in one way or another, were chosen by God to be a part of His redemption story.

 

You tell me, "And something doesn't have to be in the bible to be true.  God isn't bound by a book."

 

But, if it is not in the Bible -- it is not inspired by God.  Do we go to "War and Peace" looking for spiritual guidance?  Do we go to Shakespeare looking for doctrinal and theological guidance?

 

Of course not!   For spiritual guidance, for theological guidance --  WE GO TO THE BIBLE, God's full revelation to man for salvation and spiritual guidance in our daily Christian lives.

 

My Friend, you may run from God's Written Word -- but, in the end, you will be judged by His Written Word and how it changed your life, for better or worse.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill