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quote:
Originally posted by yellowdogdemocrat:
I take offense at the remark smart kids read Harry Potter. My kid is smart, a 94 average is pretty good. .....If other parents want to allow these things OK but don't down me because I don't allow them.

If you take offense to what I said about smart kids, then you really took that statement out of context. I think you are wise to monitor what your child reads and I congratulate you on having a smart kid. I have one also and he has read all the Harry Potter books, seen all the movies and he knows they are fiction. BTW, he has a PhD.
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Veep,

The Gospels were written decades after Jesus' life. It's very unlikely they were written by the Apostles themselves, their being illiterate and, often, dead.
I suggest a bit of bible history.

nsns

----------------------------------

The apostles were tax collectors,doctors ect. Smart people who could write
and did their own writing. You wilfully mislead, is that a lie?


.
It's not a lie at all. Luke was a "doctor" and a tentmaker. Was it matthew who was a tax collector?

doctors at the time were less sophisticated than county fair dentists of 120 years ago. One would think a good doctor would not have to be a tentmaker, too.

The larger question is, if the apostles were literate, why did they wait so long to write? All of the Gospels were written long after jesus' life.

This is not controversial.


nsns
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
quote:
Originally posted by INVICTUS:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Veep, The Gospels were written decades after Jesus' life. It's very unlikely they were written by the Apostles themselves, their being illiterate and, often, dead. I suggest a bit of bible history.

The apostles were tax collectors, doctors, etc. Smart people who could write and did their own writing. You willfully mislead. Is that a lie?

It's not a lie at all. Luke was a "doctor" and a tentmaker. Was it matthew who was a tax collector? Doctors at the time were less sophisticated than county fair dentists of 120 years ago. One would think a good doctor would not have to be a tentmaker, too.

The larger question is, if the apostles were literate, why did they wait so long to write? All of the Gospels were written long after jesus' life. This is not controversial.

Hi Deep,

Actually, it was Paul who was both a very educated man and a tent maker. And, I am sure that when Luke the physician (called by many educators and scholars one of the greatest historians) and others traveled with Paul, they, too, joined in the project of tent making. Why? Because these traveling evangelists did not want to be a financial burden upon those to whom they were bringing the Gospel. Did this make them less educated? In no way.

You say, "All of the Gospels were written long after Jesus' life."

Jesus Christ died, rose, and ascended into heaven about 33 AD. The Gospels were all written within the next 30 to 40 years. Not even a generation. We still study books written about Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War -- almost 150 years later. Are these books not to be believed?

We read books written by William Shakespeare in the 1600s. Should we trash them since it has been over 400 years since they were written? I wonder about books written about Napoleon, or the French Enlightenment period -- why do you believe what is written in those books -- or even Thomas Paine's writings. How can you believe Paine when his books and treatises were written so long ago?

So, Deep, as usual -- your arguments will not hold water. A lot of hot air -- but, no water!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Jesus spent a lot of time and effort exorcising such. Do you think they exist?

And if you do, is Harry Potter evil?

nsns


Not true. He spent more time teaching people and hanging out with those society rejected. There is also no mention of Him with a "witch".

I believe evil exists in many forms and in ways we don't understand.

Harry Potter isn't evil. Voldemort is.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The Gospels were all written within the next 30 to 40 years.


the earliest gospel was written about SEVENTY years after the supposed events took place. that is at least two generations since the average lifespan was about 35 back then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#The_first_gospels

Estimates for the dates when the canonical gospel accounts were written vary significantly; and the evidence for any of the dates is scanty. Because the earliest surviving complete copies of the gospels date to the 4th century and because only fragments and quotations exist before that, scholars use higher criticism to propose likely ranges of dates for the original gospel autographs. Scholars variously assess the majority (though not the consensus [99]) view as follows:
Mark: c. 68–73,[100] c 65-70[3]
Matthew: c. 70–100.[100] c 80-85.[3]
Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85,[100] c 80-85[3]
John: c 90-100,[3] c. 90–110,[101] The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.
You forgot to subtract 33.

68 - 33 = 35 years.

AD is for Anno Domini, or "Year of our Lord", not "after death".

Also, average life expectancy doesn't mean most people are only making it to 35 then dying. Infant mortality is averaged into that as well. It could be common for people to live to their 70's or 80's, but a high infant mortality rate would drop the average way below that.

So let's say the author of Mark was 30 at the time of the Crucifixion. It would still be possible for him to write down the events at age 65.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Deep, you say, "All of the Gospels were written long after Jesus' life."

Jesus Christ died, rose, and ascended into heaven about 33 AD. The Gospels were all written within the next 30 to 40 years. Not even a generation. We still study books written about Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War -- almost 150 years later. Are these books not to be believed?

the earliest gospel was written about SEVENTY years after the supposed events took place. that is at least two generations since the average life span was about 35 back then.

Hi Uno,

Once again, you have excelled! This time you quote from Wikipedia, a site where anyone can write whatever he/she wants -- and it gets posted. Gee, even Richard Dawkins could write that God does not exist on Wikipedia -- and there are actually folks who will believe this -- because it is written on this "come-one-come-all" site.

Let me see. I guess we can rate that site along with YouTube as the intelligence source for all the over-the-hill Mouseketeers.

Let me give you several good sources where you can find serious Biblical research and resource information:

1. When Were The Gospels Written And By Whom?
http://carm.org/apologetics/ev...els-written-and-whom

2. When Were The Gospels Written?
http://www.gotquestions.org/when-Gospels-written.html

On this last web page, you will find links to many more interesting questions such as: How Do We Know When The Books Of The Bible Were Written? and Why Did God Give Us Four Gospels?

So, Uno, yes, the Gospels and most of the New Testament books were written within a generation of the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in 33 AD.

Suggestion: If you want information regarding the growing of apples -- visit an apple grower. If you want information regarding slop, visit a pig grower -- or Wikipedia.

But, if you want information on God's Written Word, the Bible -- take the time to find and listen to a person or people who truly believe, love, and care for the true Written Word of God -- Christian believers and apologists.

I do hope you have not seen six strong men lingering around lately. But, just to be safe -- don't you think it is about time you quit denying God and turned to follow Him? If you will, you will be eternally grateful. If not, you will have an eternity to regret your erroneous decision.

One last suggestion: Bet on the winning Team! God has never lost and never will! He makes your Super Bowl Sunday looks likes a kid's checker game.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
Jesus spent a lot of time and effort exorcising such. Do you think they exist?

And if you do, is Harry Potter evil?

nsns


Not true. He spent more time teaching people and hanging out with those society rejected. There is also no mention of Him with a "witch".

I believe evil exists in many forms and in ways we don't understand.

Harry Potter isn't evil. Voldemort is.


Gnash,

I didn't say he spent all his time exorcising demons, but he was well known as an exorcist.

This link is from a source that you probably won't want to impeach: http://www.beliefnet.com/Faith...st-Exorcist.aspx?p=2

You're right, the New Testament does not dwell on witches. The OT is rife with them, and the two testaments cannot be separated.

nsns
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
You forgot to subtract 33.

68 - 33 = 35 years.

AD is for Anno Domini, or "Year of our Lord", not "after death".

Also, average life expectancy doesn't mean most people are only making it to 35 then dying. Infant mortality is averaged into that as well. It could be common for people to live to their 70's or 80's, but a high infant mortality rate would drop the average way below that.

So let's say the author of Mark was 30 at the time of the Crucifixion. It would still be possible for him to write down the events at age 65.


Bb, please cite a reference that says the earliest gospel was written only 35 years after the supposed events took place?

In the real world, almost all scholars agree that the first gospel was written 70-ish years after the death of god. Others were written much later-up to110years after theevents.

Do tou ever Wonder why no one wrote anything DURING the events? One would think the son of godwould glean a little more attention than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by NashBama:
You forgot to subtract 33.

68 - 33 = 35 years.

AD is for Anno Domini, or "Year of our Lord", not "after death".

Also, average life expectancy doesn't mean most people are only making it to 35 then dying. Infant mortality is averaged into that as well. It could be common for people to live to their 70's or 80's, but a high infant mortality rate would drop the average way below that.

So let's say the author of Mark was 30 at the time of the Crucifixion. It would still be possible for him to write down the events at age 65.


Bb, please cite a reference that says the earliest gospel was written only 35 years after the supposed events took place?

In the real world, almost all scholars agree that the first gospel was written 70-ish years after the death of god. Others were written much later-up to110years after theevents.

Do tou ever Wonder why no one wrote anything DURING the events? One would think the son of godwould glean a little more attention than that.


Does it count if I cite you? I was using the resource (if Wikipedia can be considered that) that you provided. I simply pointed out that you forgot to subtract 33.

If something regarding the Crucifixion was recorded in 70 AD, that isn't 70 years later. It's 37 years.

So using your post, John is thought to have been written between 90 and 110. That's the latest of all the Gospels. Subtract 33 and it's 77 years. Since that is using the latest date you provided, then 110 years would be incorrect.

Keep in mind that in the 1st century, writing materials were very expensive. People didn't just keep them in the pockets. This was in the age of oral tradition. It wasn't uncommon for events to be recorded decades after they happened. Most of what we know about the ancient world comes from records made a long time after the events.
Hi all,

Also, the book of Isaiah found in the Qumran caves -- is virtually identical to the book of Isaiah in our Bibles today -- 1000 years later.

The omnipotent God who authored the Bible -- continues to be omnipotent enough to protect what He authored.

God's Written Word -- is still God's Written Word!

Now, all of you who do not have the strength to live by His Word can continue to deny it and attempt to discredit it -- but, you will continue to fail miserably -- as all in the past have done.

There are over 24,000 Bible manuscripts in the world today. Any other historical book is lucky to have 100. From these manuscripts, the original autographs can be easily reproduced.

Studies have shown that if all the Bibles in the world were suddenly destroyed -- from these manuscripts alone -- scholars can reverse engineer the complete Bible with the exception of maybe 13 verses. That, my Friends, is God's protection of His work.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Does it count if I cite you? I was using the resource (if Wikipedia can be considered that) that you provided. I simply pointed out that you forgot to subtract 33.


you are exactly right and i am wrong.

still, does it not occur to anyone why a book about someone so pivotal would not be written until at least 35 years after his death? that is like waiting until now to write a book about Lyndon B. Johnson (who died in 1973).

why didn't someone document jesus during his lifetime? his "sermon on the mount" is quoted as if it were digitally recorded. can you imagine remembering every bit of a speech 35 years after it was spoken?

why its.... unbelievable.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Let me give you several good sources where you can find serious Biblical research and resource information:

1. When Were The Gospels Written And By Whom?
http://carm.org/apologetics/ev...els-written-and-whom


those have essentially the same dates and same line of reasoning as i quoted from wikipedia, bill. your sources state the same date ranges and admit to the "validity" of each range but choose to arbitrarily go with the earlier dates.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Does it count if I cite you? I was using the resource (if Wikipedia can be considered that) that you provided. I simply pointed out that you forgot to subtract 33.


you are exactly right and i am wrong.

still, does it not occur to anyone why a book about someone so pivotal would not be written until at least 35 years after his death? that is like waiting until now to write a book about Lyndon B. Johnson (who died in 1973).

why didn't someone document jesus during his lifetime? his "sermon on the mount" is quoted as if it were digitally recorded. can you imagine remembering every bit of a speech 35 years after it was spoken?

why its.... unbelievable.


Again, it has to do with availability of writing materials and the culture at the time.

Oral history is still a strong part of Jewish culture today. In modern times, we record everything the moment it happened. That wasn't available 2000+ years ago. People relayed important laws, traditions, and historical events through story telling and ceremonies.

In Jewish culture, there are actually two Torahs. One is written down, the other is oral. Check out "Oral Torah". The Oral Torah actually came first and is still held in high regard. It wasn't written down until many years afterwards.

In Ancient Greece, the poems of Homer were kept alive through memorization and performances. It wasn't until about a century later that the many poems were collected and written down. Even then, it was hard work to hand copy, so the tradition of bards reciting historical events lived on.

So it's not unusual for ancient historical events to be first written down after several generations of oral tradition. What is unusual is that the Gospels were written down just 30 - 40 years afterwards by the people who were there. It's a major break from the culture at the time, which means the authors felt the events they were recording were of high importance.
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Let me give you several good sources where you can find serious Biblical research and resource information:

1. When Were The Gospels Written And By Whom?
http://carm.org/apologetics/ev...els-written-and-whom

those have essentially the same dates and same line of reasoning as i quoted from wikipedia, bill. your sources state the same date ranges and admit to the "validity" of each range but choose to arbitrarily go with the earlier dates.

OKAY! -- NO ONE IS "SMARTER" THAN THE MAN WHO IS TOO BLIND TO SEE!

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