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Originally posted by bubbaluck:
Originally posted by CrustyMac:
The Episcopal Church doesn't have Oh Come All Ye Faithful in it's hymnal? What is wrong with them?

WRONG! It is number 83 in the hymnal. Check again.

I didn't check the first time. I'll take your word for it. Episcopaleans now have my official seal of hymnal approval. Razzer
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Neal,

In other words -- Sorry, Bill, I cannot answer you. I do not know what it takes to be saved. Okay.

So, we just have to put up with your long, rambling, one long paragraph diatribes. But, please stay out of Deep's Atheist Cutesy Comments Manual. You just do not have the panache to pull it off.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,


I think we agreed this was about page 5 in the Fundy Play Book. When given an answer, ignore it and claim that no answer was given. Repeat as necessary.
No one says you were born to go to hell. God does not even say you were born to go to hell. You were born to fill a void in someone's life or perform a certain task in life. Whether it'd be your mommy, daddy, future wife or future kids... but ultimately you were born to have a relationship with God.

As a child; it is believed that you are kind of in this "state of innocence". Where you can do no wrong (intentionally) because of your fragile state of mind. You do not perceive right or wrong until taught. So that is when you have the "age of accountability" which remains with you the rest of your life. However with this said; if you study a child for a little while you will untimately see that they have ways of evil at a very early onset. A child will grab at shiney things (watches & rings) and when not given to them they will scream and cry because they did not get their way. This constitutes a sin known as GREED! Further more, if you watch two small children in a room with a bunch of toys you will see another self-enveloped sin of sorts; One child will show anger towards another child when they have a toy the other wants to play with. You will see one showing violence towards the other; according to the Holy Bible this is a sin as well. Are these learned behaviors; "SCIENCE" has proven otherwise. It has been proven that we are born with tendencies towards sin.

With all this said; we are not born to go to hell but in fact we will inevitably head that way if not for the teachings of our parents; which usually stem from the teachings of the Bible. At this juncture in life, we have been taught the correct ways to behave for so long that we forget that they were given by God from the beginning of time and we just attribute these lessons as just being lessons taught & learned.

We would have a destination for Hell due to a prolonged sinful life if it had not been for the Grace of God even from the beginning of time by teaching us through Israel's laws! Now we Christians don't have that care or worry even more so because Jesus was the ultimate propitiation & atonement to God for the sins of all men/women who believe in the name of the Lord! (John 3:16)

Good day.
Hell, a most interesting word. Germanic, of course, and a shorthand for various Persian, Semitic, and Greek concepts that involve an absence of the presence of both light and God.

In the ancient writings we quaintly term the "Old Testament," in the earliest writings purported we find not a concept of eternal punishment, rather a physical loss of blessing. Later in these same books we find imagry that suggest a place of separation from God, a place,not necessarily of eternal punishment, rather a dark place, "Outer Darkness," "Sheol," etc., more akin to the Hellenic concept of Hadess than an eternal toruture chamber.
Finally, after contact with the Persians, we find the Zoroastarian concept of the physical abandonment of God to the evil for a spiritual place, the concept of a final judgment is relized.
Then in the time of Our Lord, we find such a place for the dead termed "Gehenna," a garbage dump outside the city walls of Jerusalem, "pit," etc., where there shall be "wailing and the gnashing of teeth." Finally, in the visions of John of Patmos, we see something upon many have latched: a Dantesque Concentric Circles of Torment, minus only harpies and flying monkeys.
Now, one would imagine that those who tout the Johannine vision as literal would also have the common sense to have read the first part of the letter: John addresses it to seven churches in Asis. He is in a visionary state and Our Lord's voice tells him to take up a pen and write. He does and he starts to see a series of physical things: seven candlesticks and seven stars. Next, confused, Our Lord clarifies what he has seen, the seven candlesticks are the seven churches of Asia to whom John is to write. The seven stars represent the angels who guard each church.
Following this interpretation, Our Lord no longer directly addresses John, and the visions get progressively more odd and convoluted. He sees 144,000 elders, the City of God, streets of gold, and its opposite: the ultimate showdown between Our Lord and Satan. There are demons, seven-headed beasts with ten crowns, a woman clothed with the sun and crowned with stars, etc.
There is little else after this to mention until the imagry is adopted by the Medieval Church and used in its iconography. Then Dante in Florence abandons Vulgar Latin for Modern Tuscan and writes the Divine Comedy. This is about it until the rise of the "Darbyites" who invent rapture and tribulation in the early 19th Century. All calms down until Isaac Scofield publishes his reference Bible and still largely ignored, is rediscovered and grown to be beloved by various odd, heterodox sects, and even largely adopted by the ci divant sane sober Souther Baptist Convention's minister and given the unofficial nihil obstat.
What is hell? Who says what hell is? Many Orthodox Jews deny hell's existence, they claim that it is eternal loss of the soul: the soul dies. Their names are not written in the Book of Life and the are not resurrected.
Hellfire: scaring people into giving to their sacerdotal betters since at least 500 B.C.
It would be the absolute height of hubris, in my opinion, to dare presume how and when and where the Almighty whose property is always to show mercy might condemn the largest portion of dead mankind to an eternal dinner party of nasty food, punctuated with fingernails being pulled out, and Karl Marx having written a lot of new books that he decides to read aloud on the concept of worker alienation while John Hagee shows an eternal slide show as Sanjaya offers his "vocal stylings, a side and very loud argument simultaneously taking place between Lady Jane Grey and Mary I Tudor.
Originally posted by DeepFat:

That's nonsensical blather.

First, you say we are not born to go to hell, then you say we are. Which is it?


No what I say is, is exactly what I said. We are not destined for Hell. God does not designate anyone for Hell. He created us to be followers of Him. Adam & Eve commited the first sin on earth, an since that time we have been born into the ways of sin. But you see God made a way for salvation. First it was through the laws of Adam, Abraham, Noah, & the Israelites. This was the fist way of salvation; the knowledge of salvation if you will. The final and inclusive of "the law" as well was through Jesus Christ. God does not designate anyone for Hell, you make that choice yourself.
Last edited by Braylan
Drat those sinful greedy babies! I thought that stuff went out of style with Cotton Mather's recanting of witchcraft trials -- too late for a score of women and a man, but at least he recanted, albeit on nearly his deathbed.

The anthropomorphic flying monkey who tricked Adam and Eve into eating of the forbidden made us heirs of their sin of forbidden fruit eating. I believe that this is a cop out and a mythic intrepetation of loss and and a Golden Age vice an actual historic event.

I am just informed that an anthropomorphic flying monkey is just silly, that the animal in question was actually the Biblically factual talking snake.

How in the world can an infant or even child sin when they have no concept of morality, of religious duty, and their superegos in Freudian terms, aka, "training" is not yet even in the process of formation?

Greedy babies! Indeed! People on islands for thousand of years with no contact with outsiders and therefore no knowledge of Noah, Jesus Christ or Adam condemned to eternal perdition -- repugnant to the Word of God, the Christian religon as taught and practiced as orthodox, and just good taste and common sense.

I'll take a greedy "sin baby" over this ridiculous claptrap any day of the week!

"Suffer the little children to come unto me."
Why? So they can be whipped for being greedy and looking at and reaching for bright shiny things?
Yes, I took the class in 1986 and was licensed then, and was also on the vestry for a 3 year term before I was 30 and elected to Annual Convention where we elected a new suffragan bishop, who is now the bishop of all Long Island, the largest in the USA in terms of membership, as it includes Brooklyn, Queens, and both Nassau and Suffolk Counties.
I fear I am too poor and notorious a sinner to become a deacon, though. But I can chant pretty good when necessary and know how to keep a censor lit: it's in the wrist and I taught many a lad and lass how to do it back in the day. I can drain that chalice with one swig, "in a dignified manner" as the rubric insists at both 8am and 10 am. The old ladies used to love it when I led Morning Prayer! The accent, you know.
Yeah, the deaf little old church ladies love southern accents on Lawn Guy Land for some reason or another. New Yorkers for some odd reason are always drawn to one.
Just like a nice Oxbridge accent will sound authorative, I reckon they think that is close enuff for church doin's. I think that is when you use "right" for a modifier and "reckon" for more than math in both dialects that does it.

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