Does Our View Of Eschatology Matter?

Hello Bill,

I'm not pre-wrath. I'm pre-trib and adhere to an eschatological position like you elaborated above: pre-trib, premillennial, and dispensational.

Sincerely,

midacts

Bill,

Not to seem ugly, rude, or anything, but judging from the majority of replies to your posts, by those whom obviously represent a wide spectrum of beliefs and opinions, I don't think ANY of your views matter.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own"

quote:

Originally posted by midacts:
Hello Bill,

I'm not pre-wrath. I'm pre-trib and adhere to an eschatological position like you elaborated above: pre-trib, premillennial, and dispensational.

Sincerely, midacts

Hi Mid,

Please accept my apology for misrepresenting your position. You had stated: "That interpretation is consistent with the pre-wrath position. I'm speaking from a classic Pauline dispensational position though, B50m. We don't believe the pre-wrath view is consistent with Scripture as a whole. But, what you wrote is consistent with the pre-wrath position."

And, B50 had responded: "That's fine. Pre wrath, pre trib, post trib, all gets confusing. It does seems that to be Sola Scripture as Bill states, is impossible. You have to ignore some scripture to put forth a particular idea. So there cannot be Sola Scripture."

But, when I looked back to see what you had said which prompted her response; I misread what you said. I know we do have one Forum Friend who does support Marvin Rosenthal's theology of a PreWrath Rapture. And, possibly because of the late hour (can't be age -- I'm still a teen at heart) -- when I read your comment, "But, what you wrote is consistent with the pre-wrath position" -- I erroneously put the PreWrath label on you. I do apologize.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by midacts:
Hello Bill,

I'm not pre-wrath. I'm pre-trib and adhere to an eschatological position like you elaborated above: pre-trib, premillennial, and dispensational.

Sincerely, midacts

Hi Mid,

Please accept my apology for misrepresenting your position. You had stated: "That interpretation is consistent with the pre-wrath position. I'm speaking from a classic Pauline dispensational position though, B50m. We don't believe the pre-wrath view is consistent with Scripture as a whole. But, what you wrote is consistent with the pre-wrath position."

And, B50 had responded: "That's fine. Pre wrath, pre trib, post trib, all gets confusing. It does seems that to be Sola Scripture as Bill states, is impossible. You have to ignore some scripture to put forth a particular idea. So there cannot be Sola Scripture."

But, when I looked back to see what you had said which prompted her response; I misread what you said. I know we do have one Forum Friend who does support Marvin Rosenthal's theology of a PreWrath Rapture. And, possibly because of the late hour (can't be age -- I'm still a teen at heart) -- when I read your comment, "But, what you wrote is consistent with the pre-wrath position" -- I erroneously put the PreWrath label on you. I do apologize.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill,

I had thought that very thing that it may look like I supported the prewrath theory since I said[QUOTE"But, what you wrote is consistent with the pre-wrath position" [/QUOTE]I figured that is where I became ambiguous.

quote:

I erroneously put the PreWrath label on you. I do apologize.

That's OK, I've been called worse.

Sincerely,

midacts

Actually, as one or the one that views the Pre-Wrath timing as the only one that is consistently scriptural backed if you take scripture in context and take it together, side by side. Whether from Daniel, Matthew, or Paul's epistles and Revelation they all line up and agree with one another.

My request is please don't discount the time and lengthy study I've done by associating me with Marvin Rosenthal's book. While I have read his book it only started me on a very lengthy study which I used many authors, pre-trib and pre-wrath. Rosenthal was the first to coin the phrase (I believe) but by no means is the best author to represent the pre-wrath position. Nor is VanKampen whom I have not read. The best Pre-wrath source is H.L. Nigro, a contemporary of Rosenthal and does a much better job representing the Pre-Wrath Position.

Not to re-hash all that was covered under the other topic, and I'm still waiting for a response from that thread about the extensive material covered there but IF rapture timing is pre-tribulational then questions need to be answered.

Questions like why Christ left out teaching about the rapture. The Gospels are filled with Christ teaching and instructions even a direct answer to His disciples about the end days and His coming yet nowhere in scripture does Christ teach about the "blessed Hope" of believers, the Rapture, or at least a pre-tribulational one. Why is this doctrine left out and not addressed by Christ.

Why is the Church missing from Revelation Chapters 4 & 5 which are positionally represented in Heaven with vivid descriptions of what John sees. The only way that the Church is represented is to do it symbolically. The Pre-Wrath timing position answers this simply by saying that the Church isn't in Heaven at this time and not until Revelation 7:9-14 at which time the Church is visually present, literally, in Heaven.

Again, no need to rehash all that was covered in the other topic for I presented a large number of references to be taken together and am still waiting for an answer to those.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 "But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief."

It seems that Revelation only matters if you want it to.

Same for all the views. No matter which way you think the end will come, there will be conflicting scripture to any view. So it is either label the parts you don't like as parables, visions, symbols or hallucinations, or be prepared to disagree.


I go with agree to disagree.

Hi GB,

Like you I have spent a number of years studying Eschatology; over twenty years. And, I have the books of Rosenthal, Van Kampen on PreWrath; as well as Gentry on Postmillennialism and Past Tribulation -- and, I have a number of books written by those theologians who beleive and teach PreTrib/PreMillennial such as Thomas Ice, John MacArthur, and many others. But, mostly, I take my understanding from the Bible itself.

Personally, I believe Scripture supports a PreTribulation Rapture of the church, when Jesus Christ will return in the clouds, in the air, and the body of Christian believers will be "caught up" or raptured to be with Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18).

I believe that after the Rapture, the seven year Tribulation will begin when Israel signs a seven year peace accord with the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27). The Tribulation is God's time to remove the chaff from His chosen people. It is a time of testing and cleansing of the Remnant of Israel -- and this is why Scripture refers to it as the time of Jacob's Troubles (Jeremiah 30:7). Yet, even though the Tribulation is primarily for Israel -- during the Tribulation many Gentiles will also be saved from all the nations.

And, I believe in a PreMillennial Return of Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:11-21) -- at the end of the Tribulation to establish His Millennial Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, on earth -- where He will rule the earth, the perfect Theocracy, for one thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

Then, He will take all believers into Eternity with Him (Revelation 21, 22) -- where we will spend eternity in the presence of God.

And, as I stated in my earlier post -- this is my belief and I base it upon Scripture. If you, or other Christian believers, disagree or hold other Dispensational views; not a problem. This does not affect our salvation, for we are saved by the grace of God, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The effect different views of Eschatology does have is that it robs believers of their sense of eternal security. Hey, if I really believed that I would have to go through the horrors of the Tribulation, or even part of the Tribulation as MidTrib and PreWrath believers think -- I would be scared silly. Those seven years will not be a walk in the park; many horrible things will be happening -- and, then, during the last 3 1/2 years -- it will be even worse.

I find great comfort knowing that I will be in heaven during this seven year period -- where I will stand before Jesus Christ in the Believer's Judgment (Bema Seat) and will be part of the church, the body of christ, who is now being prepared to be the Bride of Christ. Yes, we will be busy during those seven years -- but, we will be in heaven and not on earth suffering (Revelation 3:10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9).

What I always tell believers who are still under the yoke of believing they will be on earth during the Tribulation, "On the way up -- we will both know the truth. But, you will be very pleasantly surprised!"

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Gbrk wrote,

quote:

Questions like why Christ left out teaching about the rapture. The Gospels are filled with Christ teaching and instructions even a direct answer to His disciples about the end days and His coming yet nowhere in scripture does Christ teach about the "blessed Hope" of believers, the Rapture, or at least a pre-tribulational one. Why is this doctrine left out and not addressed by Christ. .

The Lord Jesus didn't teach "church truth," Gbrk. He preached the gospel of the kingdom.
"Church teaching" was given to Paul mainly and the other Jewish apostles beginning in Acts 2 probably-but maybe later in Acts. Here are some things that Christ did not teach during His earthly ministry:

1) that the church was to be composed of both Jew and Gentile. Actually, he told His disciples not to go in the way of the Gentiles.

2) that salvation would be obtained by believing in His death and resurrection for forgiveness of sin. Even in the famous Matt. 16: 18 Peter's belief was not in the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus merely commended Peter for recognizing Him as Israel's Messiah, the Son of God. Apparently, that was what had to be believed or recognized in order to be saved at that time. As a matter of fact when the Lord Jesus took the twelve aside to tell them that He was going up to Jerusalem to be crucified and that He would rise again on the third day the understood nothing of it:

quote:

33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

quote:

34And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.

Luke 18: 33,34

3) that righteousness would be "apart from law" during the dispensation of grace. During His earthly ministry Jesus was involved with temple worship and law-keeping. Remember when He told the healed leper to go to the priests and present the offering that Moses commanded (Mark 1: 44)? Whereas, through Paul this was revealed:

quote:

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets

Romams 3: 21

Anyway, there are 3 things that we could ask why didn't the Lord teach these things.
So, that the Lord did not mention the rapture is not relevant to the rapture being taught to the body of Christ by Paul (and also Peter I think).

There is a difference between the gospel of the kingdom (preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve in the gospels) and the gospel of grace (what Paul calls "my gospel"). The former is the subject of prophecy and is to Israel; the latter is the subject of mystery and is to both Jews and Gentiles.

To mix those two messages leads to error.

quote:

Originally posted by midacts:
There is a difference between the gospel of the kingdom (preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve in the gospels) and the gospel of grace (what Paul calls "my gospel"). The former is the subject of prophecy and is to Israel; the latter is the subject of mystery and is to both Jews and Gentiles.

To mix those two messages leads to error.

Biblical prophecy is absurd. Like Nostradamus, if one spews enough vague verbage, something like one alleged prophecy is bound to come true eventually. The only prophecy that I can see that has come to pass is the re-establishment of Israel, and we'll see how long that lasts. Their faults notwithstanding, I'm with them. The Jews need a homeland. Still, they need to behave better.

Regarding the Pauline doctrines, Christianity would have withered into dust if not for Paul. Y'all owe him everything. He, and he alone, invented the fantastic rationalization that Jesus' crucifiction was anything more than normal Roman punishment. It was brilliant, in the same fashion that L. Ron Hubbard was brilliant in inventing Scientology. BS all, but brilliant BS.

Jesus died to erase your sins, especially Original Sin. Brilliant. Nonsense, but brilliant nonsense that resonates with millions.

We now know that there was no Garden of Eden, no original sin was possible. Certainly there was no talking snake. But that is the premise that Jesus' crucifiction was supposed to rectify.

Time to admit it's all a fable. A story. A fairy tale. There is nothing to it.

We can discuss it as metaphor for the confusion of life, but it's just not real, folks.

nsns

quote:

Originally posted by midacts:
There is a difference between the gospel of the kingdom (preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve in the gospels) and the gospel of grace (what Paul calls "my gospel"). The former is the subject of prophecy and is to Israel; the latter is the subject of mystery and is to both Jews and Gentiles.

To mix those two messages leads to error.

Hi Mid,

Would you please explain this a wee bit further? As far as I can see, John the Baptist was teaching repentance -- and Jesus and His disciples were teaching the repentance by grace. I don't see the difference. Jesus came to offer eternal life and salvation to all people.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

quote:

Originally posted by midacts:
There is a difference between the gospel of the kingdom (preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve in the gospels) and the gospel of grace (what Paul calls "my gospel"). The former is the subject of prophecy and is to Israel; the latter is the subject of mystery and is to both Jews and Gentiles.

To mix those two messages leads to error.

Hi Mid,

Would you please explain this a wee bit further? As far as I can see, John the Baptist was teaching repentance -- and Jesus and His disciples were teaching the repentance by grace. I don't see the difference. Jesus came to offer eternal life and salvation to all people.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hello Bill,

I guess it depends upon how one defines repentance. As you know we grace folk always point out that salvation is by grace plus nothing. That would be the sola fide, faith only, saying. Our salvation is not based upon faith plus anything. I think it would be incorrect to say that salvation is conditioned upon faith plus repentance the same as it would be incorrect to say that salvation is conditioned upon faith plus good works or faith plus baptism.

When the Philippian jailer asked Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" the answer was simply to believe (there was no other condition). Similarly, in 1 Cor. 15: 1--3 where Paul delineates "his" gospel he doesn't mention repentance. The Philippian jailer asked:

quote:

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16

Paul (and Silas) answered,

quote:

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. .

Paul and Silas didn't say anything about "repent and believe" or "believe and do good works" or "believe and be baptized."

As you know, repent means a change of mind. In that sense I guess the word "repent" and the word "believe" could be synomynous, i.e., one has turned from unbelief to belief. Perhaps they could be looked at as two sides of the same coin.

But, the idea that to recieve the free gift we must do penance is a Romish and legalistic idea and violates the doctrine of free grace. Of course, sentimentalism and sorrow for sin may or may not accompany faith, but it is not a condition of faith. And, of course, after one is saved by faith and the searchlight of the Holy Spirit is turned on we do repent as the Holy Spirit teaches and shows us our sins. But, it seems to me that the initial salvation is by faith alone.

Repentance is a good work. We are not saved by good works, but by faith alone.

Anyway, thats my take on the doctrine.

Resting in Him,

midacts

quote:

Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:

quote:

Originally posted by midacts:
There is a difference between the gospel of the kingdom (preached by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve in the gospels) and the gospel of grace (what Paul calls "my gospel"). The former is the subject of prophecy and is to Israel; the latter is the subject of mystery and is to both Jews and Gentiles.

To mix those two messages leads to error.

Biblical prophecy is absurd. Like Nostradamus, if one spews enough vague verbage, something like one alleged prophecy is bound to come true eventually. The only prophecy that I can see that has come to pass is the re-establishment of Israel, and we'll see how long that lasts. Their faults notwithstanding, I'm with them. The Jews need a homeland. Still, they need to behave better.

Regarding the Pauline doctrines, Christianity would have withered into dust if not for Paul. Y'all owe him everything. He, and he alone, invented the fantastic rationalization that Jesus' crucifiction was anything more than normal Roman punishment. It was brilliant, in the same fashion that L. Ron Hubbard was brilliant in inventing Scientology. BS all, but brilliant BS.

Jesus died to erase your sins, especially Original Sin. Brilliant. Nonsense, but brilliant nonsense that resonates with millions.

We now know that there was no Garden of Eden, no original sin was possible. Certainly there was no talking snake. But that is the premise that Jesus' crucifiction was supposed to rectify.

Time to admit it's all a fable. A story. A fairy tale. There is nothing to it.

We can discuss it as metaphor for the confusion of life, but it's just not real, folks.

nsns

Now really, Not Shallow Not Slim, the statements of science are not on as strong a footing as you think. You just think they are.
They will change with the next generation or two and no they are not converging toward the truth. Science is merely another "religion."
...just another language game.

It's time to admit that Nietzsche was right about the statements of science.

Sincerely,

midacts

Does our view of eschatology matter?

Yes, I think so. It bears on the doctrine of Christ and the value of the death of Christ on the cross. It also bears upon ecclesiology.

On the cross Christ said, "It is finished." By that He meant that his suffering for sin was finished. He had recieved the wrath of God as expiation and propitiation for sin. He had paid the price.

The time of the tribulation period is a time of the wrath of God. (sorry pre-wrathers, mid-tribbers, post-tribbers, and especially, partial tribbers, I think the whole tribulation period is the wrath of God)

The body of Christ (the church) is organically connected to and idendified with the head, Jesus Christ.

To have the church, His Body, to be on earth during the tribulation period is tantamount to Christ again being put under and enduring the wrath of God. But, Christ has already endured the wrath of God at the cross. If the body of Christ is to endure the wrath of God, that is the same thing as saying that Christ must endure the wrath of God again.

As can be seen, the eschatological position that the body of Christ must endure even part of the tribulation period has bearing on Christology and ecclesiology, not to mention the meaning of the assertion, "It is finished."

In Christ we are delievered from the wrath to come because the head, of which we are the body, has already endured the wrath of God.

Hi Mid,

That is all so true. However, I guess I did not explain my question well enough. My question was to relate our view of eschatology to our salvation.

And, in this respect, the view or position we take on eschatology does not affect our salvation. Although, it most certainly does affect our peace of mind, our eternal security in Christ.

However, your views, which are the same as mine, that Christ died on the cross to "pay in full" our sin debt to God -- and that when He declared, "It is finished!" -- He meant that ALL that was needed to pay that sin debt and offer the "free gift" of eternal salvation to all people who, by grace, through faith in Him, will beleive and receive His gift -- was done, it was finished. His work of propitiation, atonement, was finished.

And, this is why I can never picture Him still hanging on the cross. He is not still on the cross -- He is in heaven, at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for all Christian believers.

One day, He will return to catch up, i.e., rapture, His body of believers from the earth -- and, shortly after that, the seven year Tribulation will begin.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Mid,

That is all so true. However, I guess I did not explain my question well enough. My question was to relate our view of eschatology to our salvation.

And, in this respect, the view or position we take on eschatology does not affect our salvation. Although, it most certainly does affect our peace of mind, our eternal security in Christ.

However, your views, which are the same as mine, that Christ died on the cross to "pay in full" our sin debt to God -- and that when He declared, "It is finished!" -- He meant that ALL that was needed to pay that sin debt and offer the "free gift" of eternal salvation to all people who, by grace, through faith in Him, will beleive and receive His gift -- was done, it was finished. His work of propitiation, atonement, was finished.

And, this is why I can never picture Him still hanging on the cross. He is not still on the cross -- He is in heaven, at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for all Christian believers.

One day, He will return to catch up, i.e., rapture, His body of believers from the earth -- and, shortly after that, the seven year Tribulation will begin.

hot pants,,,,,You've got most of the above wrong,but that doesn't matter. What does matter is
Jesus "Does Not" want us to forget what he did for our salvation. Some of us remember and
keep reminder's with us always because some of us could never express how thankful we are for
what Jesus had to endure for our freedom to achieve heaven.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Mid,

That is all so true. However, I guess I did not explain my question well enough. My question was to relate our view of eschatology to our salvation.

And, in this respect, the view or position we take on eschatology does not affect our salvation. Although, it most certainly does affect our peace of mind, our eternal security in Christ.

However, your views, which are the same as mine, that Christ died on the cross to "pay in full" our sin debt to God -- and that when He declared, "It is finished!" -- He meant that ALL that was needed to pay that sin debt and offer the "free gift" of eternal salvation to all people who, by grace, through faith in Him, will beleive and receive His gift -- was done, it was finished. His work of propitiation, atonement, was finished.

And, this is why I can never picture Him still hanging on the cross. He is not still on the cross -- He is in heaven, at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for all Christian believers.

One day, He will return to catch up, i.e., rapture, His body of believers from the earth -- and, shortly after that, the seven year Tribulation will begin.

bill...........Why would Jesus intercede for us? He has the last word on our salvation.

We go through Jesus going to heaven and the Father. Why did David need to atone for
his forgiven sin?

Jesus died on the cross to open the gates of heaven. So we have a right to express our free will.

Jesus doesn't send us to heaven anymore than he sends us to hell. We do that to ourselves. It's our choice only, no matter where you are in life.

midacts wrote: "The time of the tribulation period is a time of the wrath of God. (sorry pre-wrathers, mid-tribbers, post-tribbers, and especially, partial tribbers, I think the whole tribulation period is the wrath of God)"

What scriptural basis do you have for this statement, that the whole 7 year period ( or Daniel's 70th Week ) is God's Wrath?

Regarding the Rapture itself. What are the Characteristics backed up by Scripture?

Look at two of the less debated Scriptures defining the Rapture:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (NIV) 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound , the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Characteristics described around and with the Rapture of the above verses
(1) The sound of the Trumpet
(2) Rising of the Dead
(3) Delivery of God's People, we will be changed

and

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (NIV) 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God , and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air . And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.


Characteristics described around and with the Rapture of the above verses
(1) Jesus appearing in the clouds
(2) The sound of the trumpet
(3) The raising of the dead
(4) The delivery of God's people

What did prophecy (Old Testament) have to say about this event?
Daniel 12:1-2 (NIV) 1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise . There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered . 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


Characteristics described around and with the Rapture of the above verses
(1) Rising of the Dead
(2) Delivery of God's People

What about Christ description of the events recorded in Matthew 24:30-31?
Matthew 24:30-31 (NIV) 30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky , and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky , with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

What about the Characteristics described above?
(1) Jesus appearing in the clouds
(2) Sound of the Trumpet blowing
(3) The delivery of God's People

Pre-tribulatinist state that Matthew 24:30-31 refers to Armageddon and Christ 2nd Coming, as it's called. What though are the Characteristics surround this coming of Christ as witnessed by, and foretold by, John in Revelation?

Revelation 19:11-16 (NIV) 11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

(1) He appears in the heavens on a White Horse
(2) His eyes are like Flame (blazing fire)
(3) On His head are many crowns
(4) He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood.
(5) The Armies of heaven follow Him riding also on White Horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Are any of these descriptors related in the passage that Christ gave to the disciples when he was ask to describe the end times and the sign of His coming as related in Matthew 24:30-31? Also if this (Matthew 24:30-31 describes the 2nd Coming and thus the coming victory at Armageddon, like in Revelation 1:7 why do they morn at His Coming for this is to be a time of rejoicing that Christ is now to conqueror the adversaries?

Revelation 1:7 (NIV) 7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

There are many things that a pre-tribulational timing position depends upon and some of them are that Matthew 24:30-31 has to refer to the 2nd coming at Armageddon. To accept Pre-Tribulation as the timing view then Revelation 4:1 has to be taken symbolically along with the Church being taken symbolically in Revelation 4 & 5.

Lets look at the verse that pre-tribulation advocates say describes the Rapture.

Revelation 4:1-2 (NIV) 1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

What are some of the Characteristics revealed in this verse?
(1) John looks and sees a Door open in Heaven
(2) John Hears a Voice that is "like a trumpet" compare Revelation 1:10 Like a trumpet is different than being a trumpet. (( Revelation 1:10 (NIV) 10 On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet , ))
(3) The voice says "come up here" Spoken to John, a command to John
(4) There is a promise of Revelation of what will take place after this.
(5) John finds himself at once in the Spirit
(6) Positionally John is in the Spirit before the Throne with someone sitting on it not in the Clouds or in the sky but immediately in Heaven, before the throne.

It is difficult to apply the attributes of the Rapture as given in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 to this verse. First in order to achieve application of this verse to the Rapture it has to be considered Symbolic rather than Literal and given the context of Chapter 4 & 5 I don't believe that the Author intended it to be Symbolic but rather taken as literally spoken and reported. Note that the it is the voice that is like a trumpet and not a trumpet itself which is a definite part of the Rapture itself. John also hears a voice that says "come up here" where the Rapture will be a blink of an eye type event (1 Cor 15:52) where people will find themselves in the Lord's presence immediately, there won't be any time to hear any command and if there was a command that was given it isn't given by Christ but by the archangel (1 Thes 4:16) and we don't know what that command is exactly but given the time it happens in it is not indicated that it is a literal voice that people will all hear. It amazes me that Christians can see the Rapture in this one verse yet fail to acknowledge it from Matthew 24:30-31.


Granted that people interpret scripture many different ways but agreement is usually found that all scripture must agree to tell the same story and be consistant. Old Testament Prophecy should back up and support the fulfillment of that which is foretold in the past.

Agreement is also found, between the Pre-Wrath and Pre-Tribulation positions in that the Rapture happens before God's Wrath is released. The dispute is over the exact definition of when that will be. What is defined as God's Wrath and what does God's Wrath encompass.

The debate is one of Doctrine rather than Dogma and does not effect one's salvation however what is at stake is the Church's readiness and ability to be ready for the end times. Instructions are given to each of the Seven Churches in Revelation 2 & 3 with instructions to "Overcome". What is it that is to be overcome?

Ephesus
Revelation 2:6-7 (NASB) 6 ~'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 ~'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes , I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

Smyrna
Revelation 2:11 (NASB) 11 ~'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

Pergamum
Revelation 2:17 (NASB) 17 ~'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

Thyatira
Revelation 2:26 (NASB) 26 ~' He who overcomes , and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS;

Sardis
Revelation 3:4-5 (NASB) 4 ~'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 ~' He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Philadelphia
Revelation 3:12 (NASB) 12 ~' He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Laodicea
Revelation 3:21 (NASB)
21 ~' He who overcomes , I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

With so much emphasis in the letters, common to each letter to each church, the question is OVERCOME WHAT ? What are the Churches to look out for and Overcome?


Also if you take Revelation 6 to be God's Wrath, as pre-tribulationist do then the 5th seal leads to another question that needs to be answered/addressed
Revelation 6:9-11 (NIV) 9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, " How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.

If this is a time of God's Wrath then why are those who are slain calling for God to avenge their blood for surely they would know this is a time of God's Wrath and that His wrath had already come for they are now in Heaven and would be able to know that the events playing out are God's wrath. Why are they still asking when it will happen? Why are they told to wait for God's vengeance to begin to avenge their deaths? Why would God's wrath include the death of His Saints? This could better be understood if the events of Chapter 6 were seen not as God's Wrath but the actions of the Antichrist and his agents upon the world, Jews and Christians.

Revelation 6:3-4 (NIV) 3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. Again if this is God's Wrath then we have God giving His power unto mortals and men rather than utilizing His agents (Angels) to administer His wrath. This is inconsistent with the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments which are undisputed in realization that it's God's Wrath by those Students of Scripture who study God's Wrath, The Day of the Lord.


1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 (NIV) 1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief . 5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. [/QUOTE]


Remember the words of Christ, from Matthew 24
Matthew 24:32-34 (NIV) 32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened .

In Christ illustration using the Fig Tree the context is unmistakable and again should stimulate some questions in the Believer's mind. Questions like, What Generation? What are "all these things that are to happen?". I fully believe that the Generation that Christ is talking about is the Generation that will witness the events that have been laid out. The events are those that were just spoken in context with Matthew 24.

The same thought is carried forward in the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NIV) 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him , we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction . 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things ?

There are many interpretations to various scriptures and, granted, some can be mistaken by the reader however the important thing is to take scripture together and in context. Can scripture be taken literally or is it figuratively. Whatever Rapture timing position is the correct one should be reinforced by scripture and no just one verse but across the Bible from Old Testament Prophecy to Christ Words to the Teaching of those truths by the Disciples and writers of the Books of the Bible. Consistency and context.

quote:

Originally posted by INVICTUS:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Mid,

That is all so true. However, I guess I did not explain my question well enough. My question was to relate our view of eschatology to our salvation.

And, in this respect, the view or position we take on eschatology does not affect our salvation. Although, it most certainly does affect our peace of mind, our eternal security in Christ.

However, your views, which are the same as mine, that Christ died on the cross to "pay in full" our sin debt to God -- and that when He declared, "It is finished!" -- He meant that ALL that was needed to pay that sin debt and offer the "free gift" of eternal salvation to all people who, by grace, through faith in Him, will beleive and receive His gift -- was done, it was finished. His work of propitiation, atonement, was finished.

And, this is why I can never picture Him still hanging on the cross. He is not still on the cross -- He is in heaven, at the right hand of God the Father, interceding for all Christian believers.

One day, He will return to catch up, i.e., rapture, His body of believers from the earth -- and, shortly after that, the seven year Tribulation will begin.

bill...........Why would Jesus intercede for us? He has the last word on our salvation.

We go through Jesus going to heaven and the Father. Why did David need to atone for
his forgiven sin?

Jesus died on the cross to open the gates of heaven. So we have a right to express our free will.

Jesus doesn't send us to heaven anymore than he sends us to hell. We do that to ourselves. It's our choice only, no matter where you are in life.

billgray,

Those are good points if you think about it.

Hi GB,

Folks complain about the length of our posts already. So, why have you posted your long response THREE TIMES without removing two of them? We want to share our thoughts with the folks -- but, we do not want to abuse them!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Bill,

Surely (well at least I hope) you know, as well as most, that I would not allow multiple post if I had of realized it or knew it. I have remedied it at the very time I noticed it so my question is.

Why would you ask as if you believe I did it on purpose, emphasizing the words Three Times?

Just curious Bill ? Why your question worded as you did or is this just an assuming nature of yours?

My apologies to the group for duplicate postings for I don't know why it happened but it was not intentional, as Bill seems to assume it was.

Now since I have reduced the reply to one, as I originally intended it to be, would you care to address the points rather than the mistaken duplicate postings?

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Bill,

Surely (well at least I hope) you know, as well as most, that I would not allow multiple post if I had of realized it or knew it. I have remedied it at the very time I noticed it so my question is.

Why would you ask as if you believe I did it on purpose, emphasizing the words Three Times?

Just curious Bill ? Why your question worded as you did or is this just an assuming nature of yours?

My apologies to the group for duplicate postings for I don't know why it happened but it was not intentional, as Bill seems to assume it was.

Now since I have reduced the reply to one, as I originally intended it to be, would you care to address the points rather than the mistaken duplicate postings?

gbrk,

That didn't mean anything to anybody but firey pants. Yes, he's just a ----,-----!----,-----and--
------.

So don't worry about it.

gbrk,
When Bill has no answer for a post, he diverts attention.

Like Hail (Mary) full of Grace, or Lucifer is not Satan, or adulterers don't go to heaven, or Baptism was done by Jesus just for fun.

That kind of thing.

Hi Vic,

You ask, "Bill...........Why would Jesus intercede for us? He has the last word on our salvation."

We are told, in Romans 8:34, "Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us." So, we know for sure the He is interceding; but, for whom? Is He interceding for all people -- or just for those who are Christian believers"

In Hebrews 7:25, "Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." This verse tells us that He is interceding for those who have believed in Him and therefore have received the "free gift" of salvation from God (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Why do believers need Jesus to continually intercede for them? Because even though we have been saved; Satan will not give up, always accusing the saints before the throne of God. Yet, our Mediator, Jesus Christ, is there to say, "Father, these are the saints You have given to me. No one can snatch them from Our hands" (paraphrased from John 10:28-29). Yes, He is always interceding on our behalf.

We read in Revelation 12:10, "Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.'" Also see Zechariah 3:1.

Then, you ask, "We go through Jesus going to heaven and the Father. Why did David need to atone for his forgiven sin?"

Not sure just which Scripture verse you mean. This is why, in a discussion, if you are making a Biblical point -- it is more effective is you will tell us the Scripture verse or passage you are questioning.

But, speaking in general, no one needs to atone for sins which have already been forgiven. However, since we know that we all, believers and non-believers, sin every day (Romans 3:23) -- we who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb still need to recognize and repent for our daily sins.

As we are told in Hebrews 11, many of the Old Testament saints were saved through faith in their coming Messiah, Jesus Christ. Yet, until His resurrection they were still in the Hades/Paradise, not in heaven. When Jesus was resurrected, He led them from Paradise in Hades to Paradise in Heaven (Ephesians 4:8). On Hades/Paradise, He hung an "Out Of Business" sign -- although Hades/Torment is still in business, actively accommodating non-believers.

Next, you tell us, "Jesus died on the cross to open the gates of heaven. So we have a right to express our free will."

To state it more clearly, Jesus Christ died on the cross and rose again to defeat Satan and death. His resurrection promised eternal life for all people -- eternal life in the presence of God for believers; eternal life in the presence of Satan for non-believers.

By His death on the cross, He atoned for the sin of man -- but, man must still believe and receive His "paid in full" free gift of salvation, i.e., eternal life with God, to be saved and go to heaven. We find this in Ephesians 2:8-9 and John 3:3.

Man, since the day Adam and Eve were created -- have had the gift of "free will." Just as did Adam, we have the "free will" to obey God, to believe and receive Jesus Christ -- or to deny Him. If we believe and receive Him; we are promised eternal life with God. If we reject Him; we are promised eternal life without God, i.e., in hell.

Finally, you tell us, "Jesus doesn't send us to heaven anymore than he sends us to hell. We do that to ourselves. It's our choice only, no matter where you are in life."

That is absolutely true. Neither God the Father, nor Jesus Christ, nor the Holy Spirit -- sends anyone to hell. That is a "free will" choice we all must make. And, not choosing -- is making a choice; but the wrong choice. Every person, individually, must choose to believe and receive Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior -- or to reject Him, to his/her own destruction.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by gbrk:
Bill,

Surely (well at least I hope) you know, as well as most, that I would not allow multiple post if I had of realized it or knew it. I have remedied it at the very time I noticed it so my question is.

Why would you ask as if you believe I did it on purpose, emphasizing the words Three Times?

Just curious Bill ? Why your question worded as you did or is this just an assuming nature of yours?

My apologies to the group for duplicate postings for I don't know why it happened but it was not intentional, as Bill seems to assume it was.

Now since I have reduced the reply to one, as I originally intended it to be, would you care to address the points rather than the mistaken duplicate postings?

Hi GB,

In my post, I meant no disrespect. I just was not sure if you had not noticed the multiple postings -- or if you had done this for emphasis.

If the former, it was a reminder to remove two copies. If the latter, it was a suggestion to be kind to our Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
We want to share our thoughts with the folks -- but, we do not want to abuse them!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Too late, by two years.

Bill Gray stated

quote:

Hi GB,

In my post, I meant no disrespect. I just was not sure if you had not noticed the multiple postings -- or if you had done this for emphasis.

If the former, it was a reminder to remove two copies. If the latter, it was a suggestion to be kind to our Friends.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Well Bill it's just the fact that, after all my post on here and time I have been a forum member, that you would consider any alternative other than a mistake. Frankly I still don't know how it ended up being posted three times but it did. I didn't know that it was possible to hit the "Post Now" more than once and Times Daily actually treat it as separate post. I'm just glad I wasn't making an online purchase of something.

Additionally, regarding your post about the duplication, I suggest you re-read it. There was no hint in there potentially leaving way for a mistake to have happened. It's that assumption of Guilt type thing without any possibility of it being a mistake or innocence.

Not that I care to re-post it again but for the sake of demonstration of a point here is what you said, exactly.

Hi GB, Folks complain about the length of our posts already. So, why have you posted your long response THREE TIMES without removing two of them? We want to share our thoughts with the folks -- but, we do not want to abuse them! God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day, Bill

Now I could be mistaken but analyze it yourself, Bill, and explain to me where I misread your post or misinterpreted the intent of it? What part of the whole post leaves open the possibility of a mistake or failure to realize that it was posted three times? If your concern was that of a potential mistake one would think you would have used a private message, as you have done in the past, regarding my paragraph composition or lack of it, to ask if I knew it was posted three times or advise me of it. Instead the tone and composition of your post indicates a curiosity as to why I allowed the post to repeat three times and thereby comment your feelings about that which is more an indictment rather than notification of something you were unsure about.

It's really not worth the time we've given it but I just had the time and since your reply seemed to say you were leaving the way open for a mistake I thought I would point out to you that your actual reply didn't seem to indicate that at all. Besides you and I are definitely guilty, if anyone is, of having and making extended post and replies so if there are complaints about such then you and I are certainly guilty as charged.

No I don't think you meant it in disrespect but your reply was not so seemingly out of concern as to if I knew that it had posted three times which I hope you can see by it's text and wording. Never the less I did remove it as if I had intended emphasis I would have used the highlighting, bold text, color etc within the post to emphasize my point, as I have done with most any other post I have made i the past.


Now, regarding the post itself, do you have any comment regarding it's content rather than the number of times I mistakenly posted it?

Hi GB,

Once again, you have my apology. I meant no disrespect.

Yes, the Eve software TimesDaily uses does, at times, allow multiple posting. I have had this happen several times. But, when I post, I always immediately go and scan my post to see if I made any typos or if the system put extra line spaces into my post. Doing that, I also catch the double posting.

So, I am not saying it was your fault. And, I had no way of knowing you did not do this purposely for emphasis. People have done this before.

But, as I said -- I do apologize. I was only trying to be helpful.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

accepted, no problem.