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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion I began titled "Is Salvation By 'Blind Faith' -- Or By 'Living Faith'?" I will admit that what wrote in my initial post in that discussion is what I feel is the foundation for MY Saving Faith in Jesus Christ.  And, our Legalistic Theology Friend, Contendah (or as I prefer to address him, BeterCon, with allusion to his other posting name) has attempted to twist this into meaning that Conservative Christians believe that only those who believe in a PreTribulation Rapture and a PreMillennial Return of Jesus Christ will  be saved.

That is not what I believe and not what Conservative Theology teaches.

In that discussion, BeterCon erroneously declares, "And still you vacillate and avoid the central question I have posed to you, Bill.   Your initial post indeed makes the assertion that belief in the rapture/tribulation/millennial reign is part of 'faith' and thus is necessary for salvation."

Yes, a PreTrib/PreMillennial belief is a part of MY faith.  However, it is NOT necessary for a person's salvation.

My Friend, as you, and all on the Religion Forum, know -- I have always stated clearly that salvation is by the grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ - plus NOTHING ELSE (Ephesians 2:8-9). 

 

Faith does not demand a particular eschatological belief, nor  being a member of any particular church or denomination, i.e., Roman Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, and most certainly, not your  Church of Christ.  We are saved by FAITH ALONE.

Our salvation is gained by having a saving relationship with Jesus Christ, when we become the adopted child of God, joint heir with Jesus Christ, a member of the body of Christ -- the church, His bride.  We do this, as explained in Revelation 3:20, when we open the door of our heart and allow Him to come into our hearts, into our lives, and become our Best Friend, our personal Lord and Savior.

At that moment, we are sealed (indwelled) by the Holy Spirit until the day of our redemption (Ephesians 1:13, 4:30).  The day of our redemption happens only in one of two ways.  Either we die in this mortal body -- or we are Raptured into heaven.  Until that day, we are sealed into and maintained in the family of God, in the body of Christ -- and no one can snatch us away from Him (John 10:28-29).

Therefore, SAVING FAITH can be explained as complete FAITH in the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- His virgin birth, His atoning death on the cross, His resurrection, and His ascension into heaven to be our one and only mediator between man and God.  If one sincerely believes that and asks Jesus Christ to be his/her Lord and Savior -- that person is saved and will spend eternity with God.

But, I can see how a person such as you, BeterCon, who is locked into a Legalistic Theology and wants to deny the clear teachings of God's Word, the Bible, could twist what I wrote in my response to Deep's claim that Christians walk in "blind faith" -- and make it sound as though I was saying that our belief in eschatology determines our salvation.

However, let me assure you that I do not believe that and have never really written that.  What I wrote in my initial post in the other discussion, addressing Deep's claim of "blind faith" for all Christians, was what I see as MY SAVING FAITH -- what I believe, although I admit that I was not as clear on that matter as I should have been.  This is that part of my initial post in the other  discussion:


Salvation?  Salvation is by the grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Is FAITH blind?  No way.   FAITH is based upon me personally seeing God work in my life -- daily.

But, what is FAITH in Jesus Christ?   Glad you asked.

Well, that is FAITH in knowing that He came to earth as the Incarnate God; that He was born of the virgin Mary; that He went to the cross, taking my sins and my sentence of death with him, and died for me -- that I might live; that He rose from the grave in three days, and for forty days was seen by and talked with over 500 believers, even eating breakfast with some.

FAITH is knowing that He, on the 40th day, ascended into heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God, continually interceding, as the one and only mediator between man and God, for all Christian believers.

FAITH is knowing that He WILL come again in the clouds to Rapture His church, His body of believers worldwide into heaven to be with Him during the seven year Tribulation; that He WILL return to earth after the seven year Tribulation to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth, from the throne of David in Jerusalem, where He will rule the earth for 1000 years in peace; and, then, that He WILL take all believers into eternity to be with Him forever.

Bill's Note, which was not in my initial post:  This is MY faith and my belief -- better known as a PreTribulation and PreMillennial eschatology.  I do not believe that a person has to believe this teaching to be saved.  But, I do believe that those theologies which teach a different eschatology, in many ways, deny the believers their sense of eternal security in Christ.

That, my Friend, is FAITH -- and there is nothing blind about it.

And, finally, my Friend -- FAITH is knowing that, no matter how much YOU denigrate His name, no matter how much YOU deny Him, no matter how much YOU spit in His face -- He will forgive YOU and accept YOU into the family of God.

But, there is just one catch.   YOU have to open the door of your heart (Revelation 3:20) and invite Him to come in -- while you are still breathing in this mortal body.  For once you breathe your last breath in this body -- your next breath WILL be in eternity.  That eternity can be either heaven or hell -- your choice.  But, you MUST make that choice while still breathing in this life.

 

BeterCon, I will admit that one looking for a "Gotcha" as you and Deep most often do -- could twist what I have written in that initial post into saying that Saving Faith includes eschatology.  But, the Essential Christian Beliefs which will be inherent in all who are saved Christian believers does NOT include belief in any particular eschatological teachings, nor baptism, not method of baptism, nor membership in any particular local church.

To refresh your memory, those Essential Christian Beliefs are:

1.  The Deity of Jesus Christ -- God incarnate -- fully man; yet, fully God.
2.  The Trinity -- God eternally existing; manifested (revealed) in three persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
3.  The Bible -- Is the inspired Written Word of God and is the sole authority for Christian faith, salvation, and our Christian life.
4.  Salvation by Grace -- By grace you are saved, through faith in Jesus Christ -- plus nothing else.
5.  The Resurrection of Christ -- He rose from the dead, that we may also be resurrected into eternal life.
6.  The Gospel -- The birth, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ according to Scripture.
7.  Heaven and Hell -- Both are real places and are the only two eternal destinations available to all mankind.

And, I will state here that I personally believe the Bible to be the Holy Spirit INSPIRED (God spoke, men wrote), Holy Spirit INERRANT ("Oops" is not in God's vocabulary), and LITERAL (God spoke what He meant, and He meant what He spoke) Written Word of God.  This I believe with all my heart.  The Bible is the sole authority for all Christian faith.  This I believe.

So, my Friend, if you are a Christian believer -- I thank God for you.  If you are not yet a Christian believer -- I pray that you will take a moment to consider how long eternity will be, and that our brief life in this mortal body is but a blink of the eye compared to eternity.  Eternity will never end.

Given that fact, please take a moment to seriously, sincerely consider inviting Jesus Christ to come into your heart, and into your life, to be your personal Lord and Savior.  He wants to be your absolute Best Friend.  Why not take Him up on this "free gift" offer which He has already purchased, and which He has "paid in full" -- just for YOU?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

If You Died Today

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quote: Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

I suppose the other topic ended in what you call a spitting contest so you made another?


Hi Chick,

 

No, not at all.  I may still post there.  However, I believe this subject matter is important enough that I want to be sure that all who read the Religion Forum realize it is here for them to read.   No other reason.

 

But, thank you for asking.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

I twisted NOTHING, Bill.   I merely described the logical (although theologically erroneous) construction of your argument in your other post.  It is very clear to any reader of that post that you included your set of eschatological doctrines within the array of items that you organized and described as being elements of "FAITH in Jesus Christ." Thus it was YOU, not I who set the parameters of what constituted "FAITH in Jesus Christ," that being the heading immediately preceding your list of four items, the third one of which is "knowing that He WILL come again in the clouds to Rapture His church, His body of believers worldwide into heaven to be with Him during the seven year Tribulation; that He WILL return to earth after the seven year Tribulation to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth, from the throne of David in Jerusalem, where He will rule the earth for 1000 years in peace; and, then, that He WILL take all believers into eternity to be with Him forever."  

 

It is YOU, Bill, who classified that concept as an element of ""FAITH in Jesus Christ." The note you have added above ("This is MY faith and my belief-- better known as a PreTribulation and PreMillennial eschatology.") and the other wording in your belated disclaimer at long last give us the simple answer I have had to wring out of you, namely "I do not believe that a person has to believe this teaching to be saved. " 


Instead of forthrightly and promptly giving that simple answer, Bill, you performed some of your patenting sidetracking maneuvers, the most odious of which were branding me as a "Legalist" and accusing me of "want[ing] to deny the clear teachings of God's Word."


Name-calling and the attachment of labels do not constitute valid answers to fairly-stated and clearly presented questions, Bill. You simply did not want to admit that anything about what you posted was erroneous on its face, but now, in effect, you have admitted that, though not gracefully, since you have a profound psychological allergy to the admission of any error on your part.


It is you who have done the twisting, Bill, and I strongly suspect that most, if not all, of those on this forum who have followed your evasive and disingenuous performance will now conclude that you are still twisting--in the wind!


You might be able to avoid such distressing events in the future, Bill, by obtaining and studying  a primer on elementary logic and boning up on the basic concepts of that discipline which you seem to have so slender a claim upon.

Hi BeterCon,

 

Just so you will not feel left out -- I invite you to read my new discussion titled "Is Unity Of 'What We Believe' Taught In Your Church?"   This will also clear up your apparent misunderstanding of what I believe and what I share in my writings.  And, that offer of the PowerPoint presentations applies to you also.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Bill con10duh++er of God is right. You need to listen. This Trib has never been a Biblical teaching in the c0c.

Bill seek ye first the below before teaching this Tribulation theory as Biblical.

Repudiation of the "Rapture"

by

 

Dave Miller, Ph.D.

The average American is aware of the periodic claim that “the end is near.” When Y2K was approaching, outcries of doom, global disruption, and Armageddon were widespread. Hal Lindsey achieved nationwide attention over thirty years ago with his national bestseller The Late Great Planet Earth (1970). A more recent repackaging of the dispensational brand of premillennialism is the popular Left Behind book series (see “The Official…&rdquo. Every so often, a religious figure captures national attention, announcing the impending return of Jesus—even to the point of setting a date—only to fade into the anonymity from which he arose when his claim falls flat, but having achieved his “fifteen minutes of fame” (see Whisenant and Brewer, 1989). The sensationalism sells well and tweaks the curiosity of large numbers of people. Incredibly, this pattern has been repeating itself literally for centuries!

Such is the case with the alleged “Rapture.” It comes from the Latin word “rapere,” which means “to seize, snatch out, take away.” Dispensationalists apply this word to the idea that Christ will come suddenly and secretly in the air to snatch away from the Earth the living saints and the resurrected bodies of those saints already deceased. This rapture is supposed to occur just prior to the seven-year Tribulation period, which, in turn, will be followed by the Millennium.

Proponents claim that the Rapture will be secretive. We are told that families will be shocked by the strange disappearance of a mother, father, or child. Driverless cars will collide in the streets (thus the bumper sticker: “In case of rapture, this vehicle will be unmanned&rdquo. A man and wife will be in bed; she hears a noise, turns her head, and finds him gone. Planes will crash with no pilots found. These sensational and dramatic examples illustrate the view that the Rapture will be an invisible coming of the Lord for His saints, leaving visible results of chaos and confusion among the remaining unbelievers.

In reality, the word “rapture” is not found in the Bible, though it is claimed to be the Latin equivalent of harpadzo translated “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV). Lindsey admitted, “[i]t is not found in the Bible” (1970, p. 126), and noted that the word “translation” is just as suitable. Yet the word “translation” does occur in the New Testament. Paul referred to the fact that God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love” (Colossians 1:13, emp. added). So when an unbeliever obeys the Gospel, receives forgiveness of sins, and is added to the church of Christ, he is taken out of the world and transferred to Christ’s kingdom. This use of the term is certainly a far cry from the idea that it refers to Christians being raptured from the physical Earth to meet Jesus in the air.

The New Testament uses three terms to refer to Christ’s return. First, parousia is translated “coming, presence, or advent.” Second, epiphaneia is translated “appearing, manifestation, or brightness.” Third, apokalupsis is translated “revelation.” Dispensationalism holds that parousia (“coming&rdquo refers to the “Rapture” that occurs seven years before the epiphaneia (“appearing&rdquo or apokalupsis (“revelation).” Accordingly, at the “Rapture,” it is claimed that Jesus will come for the church only, while at the “Revelation,” Jesus will return with the church, and put an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.”

The primary passage used to support the idea of a “rapture” is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. But this passage was not actually given to deal with the return of Christ. Its purpose was twofold. First, it was designed to reassure Christians that their deceased loved ones would be able to share in the Lord’s return. Second, it informed Christians that those who are still living when Christ returns will have no precedence or advantage over those who have already died. This dual function of the text constitutes a very different emphasis from the one imposed upon it by dispensationalists.

The dispensational distinctions made between the three New Testament terms that refer to Christ’s return are simply untenable (see Boettner, 1957, pp. 163-164). For example, dispensationalists assert that the “coming” (parousia) in 1 Thessalonians 4:15 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 refers to the “Rapture.” Yet the same word is used in 1 Thessalonians 3:13 to speak of Jesus coming “with” His saints, thereby coinciding with the dispensational concept of the “Appearing” or “Revelation” seven years after the “Rapture.” Dispensationalists apply 2 Thessalonians 2:8 to the “Antichrist,” and therefore must understand this as a reference to the “Appearing” seven years after the “Rapture.” Yet the verse uses the expression “the manifestation (i.e., “brightness”—epiphaneia) of His coming (parousia).” Thus the term “coming” is used in the New Testament to refer to both dispensational concepts of the “Rapture” and the “Appearing,” and the two expressions are, in fact, combined in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 to refer to one and the same event.

The term “Revelation” (apokalupsis) in 1 Corinthians 1:7 is descriptive of what the dispensationalists call the “Rapture,” since Christians await it. But in 2 Thessalonians 1:7, it clearly refers to the “Appearing.” The term “Appearing” (epiphaneia) is used in 1 Timothy 6:14 as the event that terminates Christian activity on Earth, and thus fits the “Rapture” concept. But in 2 Timothy 4:1,8, the references to judgment fit the “Appearing.”

In view of these considerations, the sincere Bible student is forced to conclude that the three words relating to Christ’s return in the New Testament are used synonymously and interchangeably. The New Testament simply makes no distinction between the coming of the Lord for His saints (“Rapture&rdquo and the coming of the Lord with His saints (“Appearing” or “Revelation&rdquo. The dispensational dichotomy is in direct conflict with New Testament terminology.

Additionally, if Christians are to be removed seven years before the “Revelation” or “Coming” of Christ, then no passage should speak of Christians remaining on Earth until the “Revelation.” However, many passages do just that (see Boettner, pp. 165-166). For example, in Titus 2:13, Paul referred to the “blessed hope” and the “appearing” as one and the same event, i.e., Christ’s coming. In the original language, the two substantives, “hope” and “appearing” (epiphaneia) are closely linked by the common article. They are not two separate events, as if to be read: “Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing.” Rather, the text is saying, “looking for the blessed hope and appearing.” The one explains the other. The “blessed hope” of Christians is “the glorious appearing” of Christ. Other examples would be 1 Peter 1:13 and 4:13, where the grace on which the Christian is to set his hope is to be received at the “revelation” (apokalupsei) of Christ, at which time the Christian may rejoice. But, according to dispensationalism, the Christian should rejoice seven years earlier at the rapture.

Further, the use of the word “end” comes from a word that refers to “full end” and, in the New Testament, always refers to the end of the world, i.e., the Judgment day (see Boettner, p. 168-169). In Matthew 28:20, Jesus promised to be with the disseminators of the Gospel message to the very “end.” This means the church will remain on the Earth, preaching the Gospel, until the Judgment Day. But if the church is “raptured away” seven years before the end, she cannot fulfill what Christ commanded her to do! In Matthew 13:39-40, there is no removal of the saints before the “full end.” The righteous and the wicked grow together until the very end. The separation of the two comes at the end (not seven years before the end). The dispensationalist claims that the righteous will be taken out from among the wicked. But the Bible says just the opposite: the wicked will be taken out from among the righteous (Matthew 13:39-40).

The doctrine of the “Rapture” asserts that believers will be raised seven years before the “Revelation,” and 1,007 years before the end of the “Millennium.” But in four separate verses, Jesus Himself said believers will be raised “at the last day” (John 6:39,40,44,54). There can be no other days after the last day. So the believers cannot be raised at an alleged “Rapture” before the last day.

Finally, the Second Coming of Christ is nowhere depicted as secret, as the “Rapture” advocates affirm. In fact, just the opposite is true. Christ’s coming will be accompanied by “blazing fire” (2 Thessalonians 1:7), the sound of a trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), a “shout,” the “voice of the archangel,” and the “trump of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:16). In fact, “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). These passages show that all persons everywhere will see and hear this event. In fact, the very passage upon which the doctrine of the “Rapture” is founded (i.e., 1 Thessalonians 4:16), far from describing a quiet and secretive event, is about the noisiest verse in the Bible!

When one is willing to remove from the mind all preconceived, complex, and sensational theological concoctions, and simply let the Bible present its own portrait of the end of time and the Second Coming of Christ, the dispensational viewpoint of a postulated “Rapture” is seen to be totally unfounded.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1206

Hi Lex,

 

Boy, you and BeterCon need to get out of your COC for a while and study the Bible.  Why are the two of you so afraid of the Rapture, Tribulation, and Millennial Reign of Christ -- when it is so Biblical?   What y'all need is a good Bible study in your COC.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Lex,

 

Boy, you and BeterCon need to get out of your COC for a while and study the Bible.  Why are the two of you so afraid of the Rapture, Tribulation, and Millennial Reign of Christ -- when it is so Biblical?   What y'all need is a good Bible study in your COC.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

____

No real substance in that response, Bill. it is easier to unload ad hominem criticism than it is to address real issues such as lexum has raised. Just for starters, Bill, you could try to respond to this one item from lexum's post:

 

<<<<Finally, the Second Coming of Christ is nowhere depicted as secret, as the “Rapture” advocates affirm. In fact, just the opposite is true. Christ’s coming will be accompanied by “blazing fire” (2 Thessalonians 1:7), the sound of a trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52), a “shout,” the “voice of the archangel,” and the “trump of God” (1 Thessalonians 4:16). In fact, “every eye will see Him” (Revelation 1:7). These passages show that all persons everywhere will see and hear this event. In fact, the very passage upon which the doctrine of the “Rapture” is founded (i.e., 1 Thessalonians 4:16), far from describing a quiet and secretive event, is about the noisiest verse in the Bible!">>>

 

What about it, Bill? I have read many descriptions by "rapture" advocates that describe the sudden disappearance of the "elect" from planes, trains, automobiles, classrooms, hospitals, etc. etc., to the alleged confusion and wonderment of those "left behind."  The latter group is depicted as having no idea what has happened.  Will they all be stone deaf and blind? Will they be unable to hear the shout of the Lord, the sound of that trump of God and the voice of the archangel? Just answer that one, Bill.  It will help you warm up to answer the other pointed questions in lexum's post that you seem so ashful about addressing.  

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Lex,

Boy, you and BeterCon need to get out of your COC for a while and study the Bible.  What y'all need is a good Bible study in your COC.

Bill

____________________________

Be careful, Bill. Didn't you know that when you make fun of other churches, that Christian love ain't shining thru?

Or do you consider the COC a cult too?

Bill what church are you a member of? Apparently not the C0C. Perhaps John’s or one of the other apostles?

How could you hang anything over the door of a non- denominational religious assemblage other than Church of Christ. It says to any rational person that those who assemble here are members if HIS CHURCH.

Bill I think you need to consider a warning in Revelations about inventing things which are nothing more than additions to GOD’s WORD. Blaringly obvious of one reads is what would seem deterrent enough for adding a wild story about the second coming.

I suggest you need to be a member of His Church.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Lex,

 

Jog on over to the new discussion titled "Which Church Do You Attend?"  I believe you will find it interesting.  And, it will answer your questions.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Yes. lexum, go over to the string Bill wants you to read.  It is now endowed with some very interesting background on the cult to which Bill belongs.

No it matters not what one believes about "end times" as it relates to one's salvation. I am in a small minority of people who really don't concern  themselves with the end. God started the world as He saw fit He will end things as He sees fit. It is my job to live right and share the message of the Gospel when I have opportunity.

Originally Posted by Red Baron:

No it matters not what one believes about "end times" as it relates to one's salvation.  I am in a small minority of people who really don't concern themselves with the end.  God started the world as He saw fit He will end things as He sees fit.  It is my job to live right and share the message of the Gospel when I have opportunity.


Hi Red Baron,

 

How one believes about eschatology, as you have written, does not affect our salvation.  However, it can and does affect our peace with God, our comfort of eternal security.   For, if I thought for a moment that I was going to have to endure any of the seven year Tribulation -- I would most certainly not feel very secure.

 

And, studying and discussing eschatology does have another positive effect.  It often encourages folks to get into a deeper study of Scripture and better understand the message God has for us in His Written Word.

 

It was just such a discussion that got me started.  I was in a Bible study during the war in Kuwait, in 1991, when the leader began to talk about the Rapture, Tribulation, etc. -- and, being a relatively new Christian, I did not know what he was talking about.   Yet, this inspired me to study eschatology -- and I have spent the past 20 years studying the End Times.

 

This is why we discuss eschatology, baptism, etc., in forums like this, in private dialogues, and in Bible studies and Sunday Schools -- to encourage more people to be Bereans (Acts 17:11) and dig into Scripture on a daily basis.

 

This, too, has a positive effect on one's Christian witness.  For, when one is faithfully studying Scripture daily, he/she gains a deeper knowledge of God's Word.   This gives the person more confidence when he/she is witnessing to a non-believer and when sharing the Gospel.   It is a win-win solution.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Originally Posted by Red Baron:

No it matters not what one believes about "end times" as it relates to one's salvation.  I am in a small minority of people who really don't concern themselves with the end.  God started the world as He saw fit He will end things as He sees fit.  It is my job to live right and share the message of the Gospel when I have opportunity.


Hi Red Baron,

 

How one believes about eschatology, as you have written, does not affect our salvation.  However, it can and does affect our peace with God, our comfort of eternal security.   For, if I thought for a moment that I was going to have to endure any of the seven year Tribulation -- I would most certainly not feel very secure.

 

And, studying and discussing eschatology does have another positive effect.  It often encourages folks to get into a deeper study of Scripture and better understand the message God has for us in His Written Word.

 

It was just such a discussion that got me started.  I was in a Bible study during the war in Kuwait, in 1991, when the leader began to talk about the Rapture, Tribulation, etc. -- and, being a relatively new Christian, I did not know what he was talking about.   Yet, this inspired me to study eschatology -- and I have spent the past 20 years studying the End Times.

 

This is why we discuss eschatology, baptism, etc., in forums like this, in private dialogues, and in Bible studies and Sunday Schools -- to encourage more people to be Bereans (Acts 17:11) and dig into Scripture on a daily basis.

 

This, too, has a positive effect on one's Christian witness.  For, when one is faithfully studying Scripture daily, he/she gains a deeper knowledge of God's Word.   This gives the person more confidence when he/she is witnessing to a non-believer and when sharing the Gospel.   It is a win-win solution.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

__

 

Check out this Berean message, Bill.  This dude demonstrates some really serious problems with the Dispensational Premillennialist fables and fantasies:

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLt7TNa8XA8&feature=youtu.be

quote: Originally Posted by Contendah:
Check out this Berean message, Bill.  This dude demonstrates some really serious problems with the Dispensational Premillennialist fables and fantasies:

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLt7TNa8XA8&feature=youtu.be 


Hi BeterCon,

 

Instead of supporting the Church Of YouTube -- why don't you tell us what you believe and why -- supported by Scripture.   This guy, Jerry Johnson, appears, to me, to be the Fred Phelps of Amillennialism. 

 

So, instead of inviting us to your Church Of YouTube, how about we hear from you.   What church or denomination do you believe and support?   We know that you believe in Amillennialism, i.e., that we are currently living in the Millennium (even though we are over 2000 years removed from the Day of Pentecost when the church was born -- second Millennium, perhaps?) -- and that you believe there will be no Rapture, that Christ will just return, hold court, and zap us into eternity.

 

But, one question you avoided answering before:  Revelation 19:6-9 tell us of the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.  This is when the Bridegroom, Christ, is wed to His Bride, the church.  This, according to Scripture, happens in heaven -- and then Christ returns to earth, His Second Coming.   How is the Bride of Christ, the church in heaven for that wedding -- if the church has not been raptured?   Will you please explain this?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Red Baron, 

This is why we discuss eschatology, baptism, etc., in forums like this, in private dialogues, 

This, too, has a positive effect on one's Christian witness.  For, when one is faithfully studying Scripture daily, he/she gains a deeper knowledge of God's Word.   This gives the person more confidence when he/she is witnessing to a non-believer and when sharing the Gospel.   It is a win-win solution.

Bill

__________________________

WE discuss or YOU tell us how it is? It doesn't have a positive effect on your Christian witness, at least not with the people here.

Not a win-win solution....most people here do not have any confidence in you or what you say about the gospel.

With you, it's all about the Gospel of Bill.

 

Bill

All I'm saying is I have complete confidence that He will be with me to the end whatever form the end takes. It seems that end times is what the majority of my church wants to study all the time. I guess I've gotten a little burned out and the subject seems to bring up more questions and debates among the membership than any other. I had the priviledge of teaching on The Parables at my church for several Wednesday nights and that sparked my curiosity to study the life of Jesus more thoroughly than i had in the past. Hope that clarifies my previous post.

quote:  Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
WE discuss or YOU tell us how it is?  It doesn't have a positive effect on your Christian witness, at least not with the people here.   Not a win-win solution....most people here do not have any confidence in you or what you say about the gospel.   With you, it's all about the Gospel of Bill.

Hi Chick,

 

Are you now the self-appointed spokesperson for "most people here"?   Chick, I am sorry that you have had a traumatic experience in your life which has turned you against God and all Bible-sharing Christians.  But, it has been my experience in life that those folks who carry hatred, bitterness, and anger inside -- only hurt themselves. 

 

And, yes, you do display those traits toward me and anyone who tries to share the Bible honestly with you.  You may huff and puff all you like -- but, your bitterness is obvious on the Religion Forum.

 

With all my heart, I do pray that you can find peace with God -- for your own mortal health and for your eternal spiritual health.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

When all else fails, play the bitterness card.  Fundy handbook, page 34.


Hi Crusty,

 

While I realize that the truth is often a hard pill to swallow -- I do believe you and your two lady side kicks could benefit from a good dose of "Anti-Bitterness Antacid."  Maybe you should visit Walmart and see if they are carrying this now.   If not, try your local Christian book store.  

 

And, if all else fails -- try finding a good Christ-centered, Bible-teaching local church fellowship.  I am sure someone there could help you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Gimme A Hug

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Bill, I know you think some beliefs are not critical to salvation. I will agree that some are not. I really "like" the ads that say visit us because we don't have a kitchen in our church building. I don't think I'm going to hell because my place of worship has one.

 

So...there are three or perhaps more correctly four versions of the 1000 year reign. Only one is/will be right. Do you think those who believe wrongly will be lost?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Chick,

Are you now the self-appointed spokesperson for "most people here"?   Chick, I am sorry that you have had a traumatic experience in your life which has turned you against God and all Bible-sharing Christians.  But, it has been my experience in life that those folks who carry hatred, bitterness, and anger inside -- only hurt themselves. 

 

And, yes, you do display those traits toward me and anyone who tries to share the Bible honestly with you.  You may huff and puff all you like -- but, your bitterness is obvious on the Religion Forum.

 

With all my heart, I do pray that you can find peace with God -- for your own mortal health and for your eternal spiritual health.

Bill

___________________________

No, I’m not any kind of spokeswoman & you know it. That’s just you being a smart aleck. I’ve said it several times & I’ll say it again. I’m not against all Bible-sharing Christians. Will you let those words soak into your brain? If you read at all & listen to what people are saying you would know how most people here feel about you. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

 

There you go again, thinking you know me when you don’t. I don’t have any hatred, bitterness,& anger inside. I just don’t like egoistical know it all’s like you.

It never fails that if anyone says something positive or a kind word, you come along & tell them how wrong they are.

 

Who has shared the Bible with me that I have shown hatred, bitterness, & anger toward? I will speak out against you, Gingee & anyone else that judges me & says I’m going to Hell or accuses me of lying about something. I’ve spoken in PM’s with several Christians on this forum that have been very kind to me & shared with me w/o any hatred, bitterness, & anger from me at all.  I would like to know who those Christians are that my bitterness is obvious to.

Anytime you or anyone else see bitterness from me is when you or Gingee attack anyone that doesn’t agree with you. Who else have I shown any bitterness toward?

You have judged us all that doesn’t agree with you. I’m just a little more outspoken than most. I tell it the way I see it.

Your prayers are the last I would want. My guess is they don’t get above the ceiling.

Huff & puff? You just described yourself!

 

 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Crusty,

While I realize that the truth is often a hard pill to swallow -- I do believe you and your two lady side kicks could benefit from a good dose of "Anti-Bitterness Antacid."  

 Bill

______________________

His two lady side kicks? I assume you mean Jenn & I?

Bill, have you ever seen Crusty reply to one thing I've ever said? He is one of those people you've spoken of that dislikes me but he sure has your number.

 

Why don't you read your Bible & see if you can find a good dose of Anti-Hatred Antacid scriptures telling you of the dangers of hatred for your fellow man?

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:   Originally Posted by CrustyMac:

When all else fails, play the bitterness card.  Fundy handbook, page 34.


Hi Crusty,

 

While I realize that the truth is often a hard pill to swallow -- I do believe you and your two lady side kicks could benefit from a good dose of "Anti-Bitterness Antacid."  Maybe you should visit Walmart and see if they are carrying this now.   If not, try your local Christian book store.  

 

And, if all else fails -- try finding a good Christ-centered, Bible-teaching local church fellowship.  I am sure someone there could help you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

____________

Finding your fundy belief system ridiculous doesn't make me bitter.  You need to try harder and pull something from a different page.

quote:   Originally Posted by Red Baron:

Bill, All I'm saying is I have complete confidence that He will be with me to the end whatever form the end takes. It seems that end times is what the majority of my church wants to study all the time. I guess I've gotten a little burned out and the subject seems to bring up more questions and debates among the membership than any other. I had the priviledge of teaching on The Parables at my church for several Wednesday nights and that sparked my curiosity to study the life of Jesus more thoroughly than i had in the past. Hope that clarifies my previous post.


Hi Red,

 

Just so you know that I am not ignoring your post; I have posted a new discussion titled "Why Study Eschatology?" to respond to your comments.  Prayerfully, our mutual dialogue will offer some "nuggets of thought" to our Friends on the forum.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Friends_TiggerToo_Bear_Piggy_On-Limb-TEXT

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Originally Posted by Red Baron:

No it matters not what one believes about "end times" as it relates to one's salvation. I am in a small minority of people who really don't concern  themselves with the end. God started the world as He saw fit He will end things as He sees fit. It is my job to live right and share the message of the Gospel when I have opportunity.

___________________________

I like the way you think.

I bet you wouldn't be one to force the message of the Gospel on people.

 

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