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quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
quote:
Originally posted by jwmurphy:
I'm for the ban. Maybe the hands free devices will be illegal too.


I use a Bluetooth, why should they be made illegal?


There's absolutely no reason to talk on the phone while driving unless it's an emergency. We drove for years without the devices. Get your business done at home or at the office.

Here's a good article from my MIL's home state with an explanation of why it's dangerous.

http://www.pressofatlanticcity...65-001cc4c03286.html

Statistics show hands-free cell phone use while driving is just as dangerous

New Jersey statistics show that talking on a hands-free cell phone while driving can be just as dangerous as talking on a hand-held phone.

Between 2006 and 2008, people using hands-free phones were involved in 4,530 crashes, according to state Department of Transportation records that attribute cell phone use as a cause of the accidents.

That number is only 18 percent lower than the 5,541 crashes during the same period involving people who were illegally using hand-held cell phones. Talking on a hand-held phone while driving has been illegal in New Jersey since 2004. Talking on a hands-free phone while driving is not illegal in New Jersey.

A motorist is also almost as likely to be injured or killed when involved in a crash while using a hands-free cell phone.

State Department of Transportation’s accident records for 2006-08, the latest available, show that crashes involving hands-free cell phones injured 1,834 people and killed 10 statewide. Crashes with people using hand-held phones injured 2,317 people and killed 16 in those three years.

Hand-held cell phones were a part of 738 local crashes, which injured 345 people and killed seven from 2006 to 2008 in Atlantic, Cape May, Cumberland and Ocean counties. Hands-free devices factored into 360 crashes, where 137 people were injured locally and one person killed.

In October, Hamilton Township police said James Romer, 26, of Mays Landing, was headed east on Route 40 when he either reached for the phone or made a call. The car went off the road and snapped a utility pole in two. In July, Middle Township police said Jeffrey Latimer’s car crossed the center line on Route 47 and hit an oncoming car when the 29-year-old Wildwood resident reached for a cellphone. Neither Latimer and Romer, nor the driver of the car Latimer hit, were seriously injured.

A hands-free cell phone was a factor in a fatal Atlantic County 2008 crash, according to state figures. But the DOT cited a state law excluding accident reports held by its Bureau of Accidents as public records in refusing to specify where the accident occurred. Atlantic County’s Prosecutor’s Office, Office of Emergency Management and Medical Examiner’s Office officials said they were unable to identify the incident.

Thought they were safe

Area motorists said they thought that hands-free phones were significantly safer than hand-held phones and were surprised by the number of crashes.

“I like conferencing,” Dan Hopper said as he walked out of the Shore Mall in early May. “That way you don’t have to hold it.”

A former limousine driver from Absecon, the 48-year-old said driving and using a hand-held cell phone “is worse than drunken driving, because at least you know you’ve been drinking. If you’re on a cell phone, you think you own the world.”

The dangers of distracted driving have been publicized by some for more than a decade.

A survey in the February 1997 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine found that the risk of a driver crashing while using a hand-held phone was 4.3 times what the risk would otherwise be. The survey of 699 drivers also found that the risk while using a hands-free device was 3.9 times greater, a difference the survey authors called “not significant.”

The relatively high number of accidents for people using hands-free devices was no surprise to Tracy Noble, New Jersey spokeswoman for AAA Mid-Atlantic. The distraction isn’t the phone, Noble said. It’s the attention needed to use the phone at the same time as driving, even with hands-free phones.

“Even though you are listening, your mind is processing the information, and you’re busy formulating a response,” she said. “We have to change the culture that everyone is multitasking when they are in a vehicle because it is a danger when you are taking your attention off of the roadway.”

The motorist advocacy agency has generally supported legislation that would reduce distractions, she said.

Naadir Muhammad, 40, of the Venice Park section of Atlantic City, said the problem was not the device. “If the conversation is really intense or really serious,” then it was more dangerous, regardless of device, Muhammad said.

A friend of his, Luisa Rodriguez, 20, also of Atlantic City, said,”I really thought (hands-free) was so much safer, though.”

Similarly, Russ Beckman, 28, of Egg Harbor Township, said he also thought hands-free was much safer. The real problem is people who text-message while driving, he said.

Northfield police Chief Robert James agreed that the goal is to reduce the number of distractions faced by motorists, and return their attention to the road.

On May 12, undercover officers standing along Route 9 near the Church of St. Bernadette in Northfield watched for passing drivers who were talking on hand-held phones. Violators were stopped at a roadblock up the road and ticketed.

“You can find yourself getting into an argument with people who aren’t even in the car at all,” James said, as the cars were lined up in the church parking lot behind him. “Anything that reduces distraction for the driver … is something the state should look at,” the chief said.

Pamela S. Fischer, director of the state Division of Highway Traffic Safety, said her goal was to make talking and driving as frowned upon as drinking and driving.

“We would want it to be unacceptable to make phone calls behind the wheel,” she said, “even hands-free.”
Last edited by Buttercup
did anyone else see the episode of mythbusters where they proved thta talking on a cell phone was more distracting and dangerous that driveing while right at the exact point of legal DUI?

i'm sure that it skews wildly in the other direction if a guys knocked back a whole pint of vodka, but when the blood alcohol level is right at the point of a DUI, it's safer to drive drunk than to chat on your cell.

and it's not a matter of hands, it's a matter of distraction. if you're driving with both hands on the wheel at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock, staying 8 seconds behind the vehicle in front of you, wearing your seat belt, with your radio off and your headlights on, while wearing a crash helmet and talking on your blue tooth phone you are STILL a danger because your attention is being distracted from the road by the conversation. the act of holding the phone isn't relevent, it's listening and replying that takes the mental operations away from paying attention to the road.

how many times have you been typing.. replying in here, or responding to an email, and someone in the room was asking you a question that you had to get them to repeat because your focus was on the screen?
how many times have you been pushing your shopping cart while chatting on the phone and had to stop for just a second because you didn't hear what the person said because you were thinking about what aisle the doritos were on? or realized you walked right passed the eggs because you were listening to what your neice said that was so funny?


I am in complete favor of this ban.

NO ONE in this world is so important that their conversation is more valid than the safety of my wife or my kids.
i personally don't care if you are a doctor rushing to the OR and shouting instructions on prepping the paitient, my wife and my kids are far more important than the doctor and the paitient added together.
i'm sure the patients family would have a different perspective.
quote:
“Even though you are listening, your mind is processing the information, and you’re busy formulating a response,” she said. “We have to change the culture that everyone is multitasking when they are in a vehicle because it is a danger when you are taking your attention off of the roadway.”


Im confused, is the next step to pull the passenger seat out? What about the back seat? Having a conversation is dangerous because you are having to process that information? Really?

Well, Guess RP has the right idea with the motorcycle. No kids or wife to distract you there......

Jeepin'
Bfred, I don't know where you got all that bs in your post about the ordinance, but it says nothing about Skype or half that stuff you wrote.

Here is the part that would pertain literally to listening to your AM/FM radio as an example of how stupid this thing. Again there is not many people against a ban on texting while driving but the cellphone ban and the badly written ordinance is the problem

"no person shall use a wireless communication device to talk or LISTEN to another person,"

That is not taken out of context it is part of sub paragraph (a) of Sec. 13-280. Your AM/FM radio is a wireless communication device that you listen to. This is just an example of how terrible of a written ordinance this is.

If you must ban texting while driving, say that and forget all the other stuff.

I'm willing to bet no one on this forum has ever been in an accident where a cellphone was the reason for it. Oh sure everyone always says I know this person and I know that person, bull. And there are some so egotistical about their opinions a few might make up a story of their own.

I would even volunteer to analyze the accident reports for the last year and write a report if presented with the data. I'm willing to bet that there is no significant contribution from cell phones and probably not even texting to accidents.

Let Andy the Nanny bring forth the true statistics from an unbiased analysis not what he thinks.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
Bfred, I don't know where you got all that bs in your post about the ordinance, but it says nothing about Skype or half that stuff you wrote.

Here is the part that would pertain literally to listening to your AM/FM radio as an example of how stupid this thing. Again there is not many people against a ban on texting while driving but the cellphone ban and the badly written ordinance is the problem

"no person shall use a wireless communication device to talk or LISTEN to another person,"

That is not taken out of context it is part of sub paragraph (a) of Sec. 13-280. Your AM/FM radio is a wireless communication device that you listen to. This is just an example of how terrible of a written ordinance this is.

If you must ban texting while driving, say that and forget all the other stuff.

I'm willing to bet no one on this forum has ever been in an accident where a cellphone was the reason for it. Oh sure everyone always says I know this person and I know that person, bull. And there are some so egotistical about their opinions a few might make up a story of their own.

I would even volunteer to analyze the accident reports for the last year and write a report if presented with the data. I'm willing to bet that there is no significant contribution from cell phones and probably not even texting to accidents.

Let Andy the Nanny bring forth the true statistics from an unbiased analysis not what he thinks.


LOL, I was giving EXAMPLES of what it appears to cover, not quoting the ordinance. I think I was clear that it was a list of things that I understood the ordinance would encompass. Sounds like from your interpretation of both the ordinance and my post that perhaps your reading comprehension skills are a bit off today.
An AM/FM radio is obviously not what the ordinance considers a "wireless communication device" and even if it were, you don't have to hold it to listen to it which is something addressed in the ordinance.
quote:
Originally posted by Lets Go Jeepin':


Well, Guess RP has the right idea with the motorcycle. No kids or wife to distract you there......

Jeepin'


Dude...I'm an Aztec sacrifice out here! Big Grin
I gotta think like a futhermucker just to stay alive. No distractions, but way more to concentrate on 'cause there's only 2 wheels (balance) and no cage around me if I screw up.
Of course all that NYC area riding has made me quite an aggressive driver.....
I think it would be better if it was changed to be a texting only ban. After all, you can watch the road while talking on the phone, but not while typing out a conversation on your phone.
And if you are at fault in a fatal or serious accident and your wireless records show you were texting at the time- well I'm for the same sentence as felony DUI.It is incredibly selfish to think your right to chit -chat by texting is worth risking lives. And the less experienced drivers are even more easily distracted ( generally speaking).
quote:
Originally posted by semiannualchick:
I don't get it. If talking on my phone, w/o holding it in my hand, is distracting, how is that anymore distracting than the person in the car with me that I'm talking to???
Anyone care to answer????


Semi I don't have a problem with talking on the cell phone, but texting to me is a major issue. That's where I do think the ordinance needs to be tweeked. Unfortunately, this will be like the sound ordinance with the hoopty stereos--Rarely unless it is truly reported by someone or erratic driving to trigger a stop will anyone get in trouble for this most likely.
I drive about 50-60,000 a year. I see more issues with people eating, putting on makeup, and even reading while driving. Ban texting, no problem, ban cell phones entirely...no. You would have to ban EVERYTHING that takes your attention from the task at hand. Worst I ever saw - lady in Memphis on a very crowded Poplar Ave was putting on makeup, talking on phone, and eating. Unfortunately you can't legislate stupidity.
quote:
Originally posted by EthosPathosLogos:
Did you know that no police department in Alabama even records whether or not a crash was caused by cell phone use? How are we sure there is a problem with safety, and crashes if we do not monitor it?


Took me longer to get back with this than I first thought it would.

Your statement above is wrong. The crash report currently in use (which is mandated by the AL Dept. of Public Safety) specifically lists as a choice under contributing factors both electronic communication devices (cell phone, pager, etc.) or other electronic device (navigation device, palm pilot, etc.).
Last edited by Sassy Kims
I was stopped at a major intersection on Cox Creek this weekend and took a look around and counted 6 drivers with cell phones to their ears. There's no way you can be as attentive when driving as you need to be when you are operating a cell phone. Sure talking is talking but how about looking to see who's calling before you answer? How about looking up a contact to dial? Sometimes even if you're 100% intent on the task of driving it's impossible to avoid accidents with less attentive drivers. I'm not big on allowing the government to tell us how to live but a little common sense would help. If you knew you were going to be in an accident would you buckle up and leave the cell phone in the seat? How can you know that you aren't?
quote:
Originally posted by daddy joe:
I drive about 50-60,000 a year. I see more issues with people eating, putting on makeup, and even reading while driving. Ban texting, no problem, ban cell phones entirely...no. You would have to ban EVERYTHING that takes your attention from the task at hand. Worst I ever saw - lady in Memphis on a very crowded Poplar Ave was putting on makeup, talking on phone, and eating. Unfortunately you can't legislate stupidity.

LOL, probably the same one who was putting on her makeup while stopped at a light, her car (somehow) got put in reverse, and she backed into me ! She turned around, frowned, shot me the bird like it was my fault, and pulled off.

Memphis is one of the worse places to drive I have ever seen, Nashville comes in a close second.
quote:
An AM/FM radio is obviously not what the ordinance considers a "wireless communication device" and even if it were, you don't have to hold it to listen to it which is something addressed in the ordinance.


The ordinance is not about what "they" consider in their limited thinking, it is what the ordinance has written in it. And the way it is written it includes an AM/FM radio which is a wireless device, and if you read the next paragraph that defines wireless device literally it includes radios and it is not limited to a hand held device.

You're not a very good reader apparently. And the city enforcement of ordinances does not revolve around what you or I think, it's WHAT IS WRITTEN.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
quote:


The ordinance is not about what "they" consider in their limited thinking, it is what the ordinance has written in it. And the way it is written it includes an AM/FM radio which is a wireless device, and if you read the next paragraph that defines wireless device literally it includes radios and it is not limited to a hand held device.

You're not a very good reader apparently. And the city enforcement of ordinances does not revolve around what you or I think, it's WHAT IS WRITTEN.


Evil, Evil, Evil, (shakes head) Try and read 13-281 (a). Even if the car radio is considered a communication device (I would think a communication device would both send and receive s signal instead of only receiving like the radio does but, I could be wrong) Anyway, even if it is considered a wireless communication device then the hands free clause covers it so don't worry, you're not going to be convicted for listening to your radio. The sound from your radio comes out of the very same speakers that your speakerphone goes through so your freedom to listen to your radio while you drive is not only covered, it's a non issue.
Road Puppy said
quote:
Having read the proposed ordinance, I see no mention of a hardwired AM/FM car radio.


This just proves what I've been saying, one major problem with this is that most, including the city council, don't understand what a wireless device is. It has nothing to do with how a device is wired "hard wired" to your battery.

I will say it again it is the transmission means of the signal which determines if something is a wireless device in the context of this ordinance. The only way something in your car would not be wireless was if you had a big wire reel on your trunk and had the antenna connected to this miles of wire dragging behind your car to your connection at home.

Please learn what it means before you debate the topic.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
Road Puppy said
quote:
Having read the proposed ordinance, I see no mention of a hardwired AM/FM car radio.


This just proves what I've been saying, one major problem with this is that most, including the city council, don't understand what a wireless device is. It has nothing to do with how a device is wired "hard wired" to your battery.

I will say it again it is the transmission means of the signal which determines if something is a wireless device in the context of this ordinance. The only way something in your car would not be wireless was if you had a big wire reel on your trunk and had the antenna connected to this miles of wire dragging behind your car to your connection at home.

Please learn what it means before you debate the topic.


Well I guess I have to whip out the dictionary for you now.

communications device

Typically refers to a terminal used to send voice, video or text. Mobile phones, wireless PDAs and personal computers equipped with microphones, speakers and cameras are all considered communications devices.

LINK:
communications device

Anyway, the above definition agrees that a communication device is something capable of SENDING a signal, not just receiving. Since your car radio can only receive a signal then it is not considered a communication device.
Since you have beat this point to death try and at least find a legit angle to argue against the ban.
Now we have a problem. After looking further at the definition of a wireless communication device, even though your car radio is not included the remotes that I use to open my gates and garage door are by definition wireless communication devices! They need to exclude those from the ordinance, I normally push the button while I'm still on the road so that I don't have to sit and wait for the gates to open and I don't think that is a distraction. I don't have to take my eyes off the road to push the button as I know where it is.
I am sure that whoever drew up the ordinance did not have garage door openers in mind but since it does fall within the definition it does need to be addressed.
**** . . . it sure sounds like everyone on this thread is for the cell phone ban. It's curious to me why the same people stick up for Roger Bedford. You do know he was the primary cause of the cell phone ban being buried in the Senate? He assigned it to a nonfunctioning committee without a chairman to even call a meeting to determine the cell phone bills fate. He essentially killed it . . . just like the PAC to PAC transfer legislation, ethics legislation, subpoena power for the Ethics Committee, Campaign funding reform and transparency, trashing all education reform bills and how many other bills that would intrude on the special interest he represents can you name.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:


Please learn what it means before you debate the topic.


I currently hold an Extra Class amateur radio operator's license and was an MOS 035E (Special Electronic Devices Repairer) in the Army back in the early 80s.. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me to know what a 'communications device' is, a55clown.

Now back to practicing for you. You'll figure out those dang shoelaces eventually.

As I stated before-the ordinance needs to specifically address handheld communications devices.

Hang up and drive, dummy.
quote:
I currently hold an Extra Class amateur radio operator's license and was an MOS 035E (Special Electronic Devices Repairer) in the Army back in the early 80s.. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me to know what a 'communications device' is, a55clown.


Well you obviously didn't learn much if you think wireless has anything to do with how its wired to the batter or car LOL

You're also confused, bfred was the one that had taken to a narrow definition of communications device to argue not debate, you were the one that said an AM/FM radio wasn't wireless because it was "hard wired" to your truck. You're both either the same person or you can't keep up with what you say.

I'm not an amateur radio op but I have extensive qualifications in the electronic engineering and management field, but the difference is I don't have a lack of confidence as you and feel you have to throw around some phony license to cover over your errors.

I guess you think your CB radio at home is not wireless because its hooked to your house current.

Broadcasters both professional and amateurs were called wireless operators in the old days. As I said if you have an opinion give it but don't try to BS everyone and claim you're some kind of expert when you obviously aren't.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
quote:
I currently hold an Extra Class amateur radio operator's license and was an MOS 035E (Special Electronic Devices Repairer) in the Army back in the early 80s.. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me to know what a 'communications device' is, a55clown.


Well you obviously didn't learn much if you think wireless has anything to do with how its wired to the batter or car LOL

You're also confused, bfred was the one that had taken to a narrow definition of communications device to argue not debate, you were the one that said an AM/FM radio wasn't wireless because it was "hard wired" to your truck. You're both either the same person or you can't keep up with what you say.

I'm not an amateur radio op but I have extensive qualifications in the electronic engineering and management field, but the difference is I don't have a lack of confidence as you and feel you have to throw around some phony license to cover over your errors.

I guess you think your CB radio at home is not wireless because its hooked to your house current.

Broadcasters both professional and amateurs were called wireless operators in the old days. As I said if you have an opinion give it but don't try to BS everyone and claim you're some kind of expert when you obviously aren't.


LOL, Every dictionary I have looked in does not include an AM/FM radio as a communication device and by your own definition you mentioned "broadcasters". An AM/FM radio does not broadcast a signal, it only receives a signal. What was shocking is when I found that garage door opener remotes are considered a communication device (they do broadcast a signal to communicate with your opener to tell it to either open or close). Not only a communication device but a wireless communication device and yes most are hand held.
First of off fred, I didn't define anything. Trying to talk to you and Road Puppy is pointless bfred, it's like I'm Einstein trying to carry on a conversation with Dumb and Dumber. One last time I'm going to put here what the ordinance defines as a wireless communications device. It doesn't matter what your elementary school dictionary defines it as.

"Wireless communications device means a cellular telephone AND ANY OTHER cellular, ANALOG, OR DIGITAL DEVICE or computer capable of accessing the internet or sending, RECEIVING or downloading any electronic or digital data, including, BUT NOT LIMITED to, videos, pictures, or communications such as VOICE, electronic mail, instant messages, or text messages.

I'm just saying this ordinance is terribly written and shouldn't be allowed to go into law as it is.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
First of off fred, I didn't define anything. Trying to talk to you and Road Puppy is pointless bfred, it's like I'm Einstein trying to carry on a conversation with Dumb and Dumber. One last time I'm going to put here what the ordinance defines as a wireless communications device. It doesn't matter what your elementary school dictionary defines it as.

"Wireless communications device means a cellular telephone AND ANY OTHER cellular, ANALOG, OR DIGITAL DEVICE or computer capable of accessing the internet or sending, RECEIVING or downloading any electronic or digital data, including, BUT NOT LIMITED to, videos, pictures, or communications such as VOICE, electronic mail, instant messages, or text messages.

I'm just saying this ordinance is terribly written and shouldn't be allowed to go into law as it is.


THAT'S what I've been saying all along, too. And if ya weren't so busy bein' a pompous buttmunch, ya would've seen that.

Yeah 20WPM and Element 4b.

It needs to specifically address HANDHELD communication devices the use of which requires the driver's attention to be diverted from the primary task of DRIVING. Otherwise any device which emits or receives is a 'communications device.' Yes-people twiddling with their car radios have had/caused accidents, but handheld communications devices cause MORE accidents MORE often.

So yank THIS ya blowhards. Big Grin
YOU actually think you're worth impressing? LOL. This is why I actually get along with Chicken-Banders better than with constipated old hams with their "holier than thou attitudes (Kinda like Fundies)...always groanin' about their ailments.


Go ahead-turn off your phone for a minute. I dare ya. I'll wait til ya take yer meds.
Last edited by Road Puppy
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
First of off fred, I didn't define anything. Trying to talk to you and Road Puppy is pointless bfred, it's like I'm Einstein trying to carry on a conversation with Dumb and Dumber. One last time I'm going to put here what the ordinance defines as a wireless communications device. It doesn't matter what your elementary school dictionary defines it as.

"Wireless communications device means a cellular telephone AND ANY OTHER cellular, ANALOG, OR DIGITAL DEVICE or computer capable of accessing the internet or sending, RECEIVING or downloading any electronic or digital data, including, BUT NOT LIMITED to, videos, pictures, or communications such as VOICE, electronic mail, instant messages, or text messages.

I'm just saying this ordinance is terribly written and shouldn't be allowed to go into law as it is.


Well Evil, I'm not sure where you went to law school but it appears you skipped class a lot. An AM/FM radio is not what the ordinance considers a wireless communication device and there is no need to address it. "Elementary" or not it is really that simple and there is no reason to make the issue any more complex than it is. You don't seem to be getting this through your head so I am going to say it again; even if your am/fm radio was to be considered a wireless communication device by the ordinance it would still be excluded by the hands free exception as you do not have to use your hands to hear the radio. The sound of the radio comes through the same speakers that some of the hands free equipment for phones use which is excluded. Some hands free equipment even uses an FM signal to work through your car radio. Do you think an officer is going to ask "¿were you listening to your phone, a cd, or a radio station through your stereo? because if it was a radio station I'm writing you a ticket" I think not. Additionally if it becomes against the law to change the station or the volume on your radio while driving, how is anyone going to prove it? It would be unenforceable. With the above said it's still a non-issue, if you address everything that anyone might consider a wireless communication device then we would have an ordinance that approaches the length of the healthcare bill.
quote:
Originally posted by Sassy Kims:
quote:
Originally posted by EthosPathosLogos:
Did you know that no police department in Alabama even records whether or not a crash was caused by cell phone use? How are we sure there is a problem with safety, and crashes if we do not monitor it?


Took me longer to get back with this than I first thought it would.

Your statement above is wrong. The crash report currently in use (which is mandated by the AL Dept. of Public Safety) specifically lists as a choice under contributing factors both electronic communication devices (cell phone, pager, etc.) or other electronic device (navigation device, palm pilot, etc.).


perhaps you should tell Montgomery that? I spoke with a supervisor at dept. Of public safety and she told me there is no such data collected. Maybe you could show me where it is on the print out I got from the fpd, too? Also, you might want to show chief singleton. He said they don't collect it.
quote:
Originally posted by EvilGenius:
I can't wait for them to pull over Road Puppy and give him a ticket for talking on his "chicken band" radio Smiler.



Heh. Would this be BEFORE or AFTER ya wreck from fiddlin' with the volume controls on your car radio trying to turn down the gawdawful noise of the splatter from my awesome "chikkin band" radio? Smiler I can make your fillings talk, sucka....

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