From Prayers to Why to Anger to Understanding and the Unknown

I can assure you God is there. We can't imagine the pain and chaos if he were not.

Here is one possible answer, in the form of a letter written by Ram Dass to the parents of a young girl who'd been brutally murdered:

Dear Steve and Anita,

Rachel finished her work on Earth and left the stage in a manner that leaves those of us left behind with a cry of agony in our hearts, as the fragile thread of our faith is dealt with so violently. Is anyone strong enough to stay conscious through such teaching as you are receiving? Probably very few. And even they would only have a whisper of equanimity and peace amidst the screaming trumpets of their rage, grief, horrow, and desolation.

I can't assuage your pain with any words, nor should I, for your pain is Rachel's legacy to you. Not that she or I would inflict such pain by choice, but there it is. And it must burn its purifying way to completion. For something in you dies when you hear the unbearable, and it is only in that dark night of the sould that you are prepared to see as God sees, and to love as God loves.

Now is the time to let your grief find expression -- no false strength. Now is the time to sit quietly and speak to Rachel, thank her for being with ou these few years, and encourage her to go on with whatever her work is, knowing that you will grow in compassion and wisdom from this experience. In my heart, I know that you and she will meet again and again, and recognize the many ways in which you have known each other. And when you meet you will know, in a flash, what now it is not given to you to know: why this had to be the way it was.

Our rational minds can never understand what has happened, but our hearts -- if we keep them open to God -- will find their own intuitive way. Rachel came through you to do her work on Earth, which includes her manner of death. Now her soul is free, and the love that you can share with her is invulnerable to the winds of changing time and space. In that deep love, include me.

In love,
Ram Dass

It is not a matter of where is God; it is really a matter of where we are in relation to God. God did not bring suffering into the world, man did, through Adam. God brings comfort, assurance, and peace to those who will put their love and faith in Him.

A very wise pastor friend taught me years ago, that when I attend a funeral, of a friend or a loved one --- there are two responses. If that person was not a Christian believer, or you are not a Christian believer; you have to say, "Good bye." --- for it is over.

However, if that person is a Christian believer, and you are a Christian believer, then, it is not, "Good bye" but rather, it is, "Good night, I will see you in that glorious morning." Between two Christian believers, it is never good bye, but good night.

Yes, when we loose a loved one, family or friend, we mourn for a period. The mourning is for ourselves; for we will be without that loved one for a while. However, if that loved one is a believer, he/she has gone on to a much happier life with Jesus Christ --- and is preparing a welcoming party for us.

When we loose a child, it is doubly painful --- on the other hand, look up to heaven and see that child resting in the arms of Jesus Christ; for that is a certainty. Then, smile, rejoice, and make sure that you have a personal relationship with Jesus so that you, too, will one day be in face-to-face fellowship with Him.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day in the Lord,

Bill Gray
Alabama bred,
California fed,
America blessed!

Bill and Peace Brother said it all....... Thanks guys!

Yea, what she said.

not my beliefs exactly, but still close enough for me to say very well said!

Dang bill....Almost made the Roofer tear up there...Powerfull words you have spoken. Sounds as if you had a good preacher growing up...as did I...Brother Tittle...He is no longer with us...but he was never less than a phone call away...Absolutly the best in my opinion...He taught me alot...through scripture...not just by sitting and talking to me....but actually preaching on a topic so I could understand as a child and now I am grown I see what he was doing..Totally amazing...Thanks....The Roofer..

To me there is a big difference between a Preacher and a Minister. Sounds to me like you two (Bill and RA) both had good ministers.

Bluesman (& all), my sister has been and is asking those questions right now (lost her huband last November) and it's killing me. I don't know how to reach her. She accepted Christ as a child but because of our upbringing turned away from God. She has sought medical and psychological help in all forms, which kept her from killing herself, but she is so depressed and has made so many reckless decisions. I am scared for her and her three children (ages 16, 13, & 5).

How do you help someone see that where doctors and medicine fail, God is able? She was ticked off at God, which is understandable, but now she says she is too tired to be mad at anybody, including God. I've told her my experiences of God pulling me from the pit, but I feel the wall go up if I say anything about God.

It is frustrating and heart-breaking when you know the road to peace and healing but you cannot show someone that you love the power that is right there.

I know where God is when it hurts...
He hurts when I hurt, just like any good parent would.
He holds me up when I'm too weak to go on.
He rocks me to sleep when none will come.
He places joy and peace in my heart amidst sorrow.
He healed my pain and my scars and filled up the gaps in my soul with his Spirit to make me whole. Thank you, Lord.
He listens as I pour out my heart and gives me more in return than I could ever ask or imagine.
And one day, He will wipe away every tear and there will be no more pain, no more innocent lives ripped apart by war or famine or crime. Come, Lord Jesus.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bluesman (& all), my sister has been and is asking those questions right now (lost her huband last November) and it's killing me. I don't know how to reach her. She accepted Christ as a child but because of our upbringing turned away from God. She has sought medical and psychological help in all forms, which kept her from killing herself, but she is so depressed and has made so many reckless decisions. I am scared for her and her three children (ages 16, 13, & 5).

How do you help someone see that where doctors and medicine fail, God is able? She was ticked off at God, which is understandable, but now she says she is too tired to be mad at anybody, including God. I've told her my experiences of God pulling me from the pit, but I feel the wall go up if I say anything about God.

It is frustrating and heart-breaking when you know the road to peace and healing but you cannot show someone that you love the power that is right there.

I know where God is when it hurts...
He hurts when I hurt, just like any good parent would.
He holds me up when I'm too weak to go on.
He rocks me to sleep when none will come.
He places joy and peace in my heart amidst sorrow.
He healed my pain and my scars and filled up the gaps in my soul with his Spirit to make me whole. Thank you, Lord.
He listens as I pour out my heart and gives me more in return than I could ever ask or imagine.
And one day, He will wipe away every tear and there will be no more pain, no more innocent lives ripped apart by war or famine or crime. Come, Lord Jesus.

Joy, I know how your sister feels too. I also shut down when someone mentions God, which I'm not sure there is one. You can push her away if you mention him or try to preach to her, which in her mind you are. Just be there for her, which I'm sure you are, listen when she needs you too. I wish you & your sister the best.

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I can assure you God is there. We can't imagine the pain and chaos if he were not.

It can't be any worse in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by bluesman *:
And don't tell me most of us have not asked these questions when a love one dies, or why a child dies who has never done nothing wrong, QUESTION IS "Where is GOD when it HURTS". Why with so many people believing in so many faiths, why is there so many wars, so much hate, so much greed, i.e. What is the REAL ANSWER, or maybe there is not one, maybe Heaven or Hell is not for real, then again what if it is.

I often think of the little children & babies that are beaten, killed, & raped. What did they ever do? There are mean people walking the streets in good health. But God choose's the little children to be tormented. If there is a God, he either allows it or he doesn't.

Thanks, Taciturn. I will back off on talking about God and just listen.

Regarding innocent people being hurt, this is how I feel about that. God didn't inflict that pain. Other people did. God gives everyone free will to choose. Some choose to love others and some choose to hurt others. Free will is praised in some instances (not 'forced' to love God because that wouldn't be love) and hard to accept in others (when children are hurt). But I think without it, our relationship with God would not be authentic...it would be reduced to puppetry.

Are there times when God allows pain in your life to bring you where you can't go but need to go? Sure. I think He may have done that in my life. I've only recently come to this realization. If the pain was necessary (and in my case it was) for me to be where I am now in my walk with God, I thank God for allowing the pain.

Sorry, I seem to be long-winded today.

quote:

Originally posted by bluesman *:
And don't tell me most of us have not asked these questions when a love one dies, or why a child dies who has never done nothing wrong,

Because accidents happen. Humans have no more and no less life in them than the ant you crush under your footsteps. Sometimes we get stepped on. All the more reason to seize the day and tell your child you love them every single day.

quote:

QUESTION IS "Where is GOD when it HURTS".

The power to heal thine self is within. If healing thine self requires transferring your inner power to an imagined deity (called compartmentalizing), then so be it. Our highly evolved brains have given us enormous powers over ourselves. So, the god you seek is within you. You are your own god.

Speaking only for myself, of course.

quote:

Why with so many people believing in so many faiths

Faith used to do what science does now: Provide answers to difficult questions. We all evolved on different parts of the world so we all have different "correct" answers to the same questions of Where we came from and Where we are going.

quote:

why is there so many wars, so much hate, so much greed,

We evolved that way. Anyone who is "different " from us is an enemy. This was handy as a survival tool when our ancestors foraged in the treetops competing for limited amounts of fruit, berries and attractive mates. I admire the propensity of the human race to rise above our biological leanings but we keep taking two steps forward and one step back.

Give us a few tens-of-thousands of years and we will evolved beyond that . . . If we don't annihilate ourselves first. ;(

quote:

i.e. What is the REAL ANSWER, or maybe there is not one, maybe Heaven or Hell is not for real, then again what if it is.

We are put on this earth for one thing and one thing only: To propagate our species by doing everything in our power to see that our offspring breed successfully.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are simply wonderful byproducts of that strategy.

Carpe Deim.

Bluesman –Where is God when it hurts,

And to GoFish who replies - Because accidents happen. Humans have no more and no less life in them than the ant you crush under your footsteps. Sometimes we get stepped on. All the more reason to seize the day and tell your child you love them every single day.

________________________________________________

I see love in both of you, yet hurt has outdone you. The answer is not to belittle your life to that of an ant. Nor is it to belittle God who has done no wrong. For God values your life much more than you realize and He hurts and shakes His head also. I’m pointing no finger at either of you, for there may be far greater potential in either of you than in me. I believe often the tenderest heart is the one that has the tendency to grow most bitter. God is often blamed for what He is not responsible for.

Love requires a free will and cannot exist without it. If only God would give freedom to those who choose love and bind the rest. If God could only stop the fall of man as He sinks to depravity and puts in motion the rocks that crush the innocent. We find loved ones in life and then watch them die. We shake our fist at God and ask why. But would a loving God want us to live forever in this evil world? How can we explain all this? Is God to blame? No, God is blameless. Yet He took our blame. He carried our cross until he collapsed beneath it. He allowed Himself to be nailed to it and then they lifted Him high so all could see. His friends betrayed Him and there was none to comfort Him. He was mocked, tormented and despised. They said come down and save yourself if you are the Christ! He refused to come down until the price of our sin had been paid. He took the blame. When tragedy comes we still blame Him. And in our good times we forget Him. Yet He is the one friend that would always be closer than a brother, if we would only let Him. He is not the problem but the answer.

What4,

How do you know god shakes his head? How unutterably hubristic of you to presume you understand god!

The fact is, we all die. Much too soon, at that. About the time we become wise, we die.

If god could only stop the fall of man??!! What sort of god could not, would not??

For chrissakes, man, your apologies for The Man are pitiful. And your logic is pathetic.

DF

BLUESMAN I FIND YOUR COMMENTS DISTURBING BUT, THOSE ARE YOU OPINIONS AND YOU MAY BELIEVE WHATEVER YOU WANT BUT I HAVE A QUESTION.

WHEN YOUR DAY COMES TO A END AND YOU OPEN YOUR EYES AND GOD SAYS WHY MY SON, WHY DID YOU NOT BELIEVE IN ME, WHAT WILL YOU SAY?

IF THE WORLD WAS TO CATCH FIRE RIGHT NOW WOULD YOU BELIEVE, RUN , OR START YELLING FOR GOD TO SAVE YOU?

I LOST MY MOTHER AT 16 AND IT WAS VERY HARD ON ME BUT I NEVER ASK GOD WHY I JUST ASK HIM TO SHOW ME WHY ALL OF THIS WAS HAPPENING. THINGS HAPPEN TO PEOPLE FOR DIFFERENT REASON. GOD SOMETIMES GIVE PEOPLE A WAKE UP CALL, SOMETIMES HE DOES THINGS TO MAKE YOU STRONGER, AND SOMETIMES HE REWARDS YOU FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. MINE WAS TO MAKE ME STRONG, I WISH MY MOTHER WAS HERE BUT TO BE HONEST I WOULD NOT HAVE ACCOMPLISHED A LOT OF STUFF I HAVE IF SHE WAS. WHEN SHE DIED I BECAME A MAN. BUT I ALSO WAS REWARD FOR NEVER LOSING FAITH I HAVE A WONDERFUL DAUGHTER WHO IS 6 AND IS A SPLITTING IMAGE OF HER GRANDMOTHER , I HAVE A GREAT JOB AND THE KNOWLEDGE TO RAISE HER TO BE HER OWN WOMAN AND NOT DEPEND ON ANYONE BUT GOD KEEP YOUR FAITH ALL THE OTHER STUFF WILL COME OUT IN THE WASH!!

BLUESMAN IT SEEMS YOU ARE JUST LOOKING FOR REASON NOT TO BELIEVE. STOP GOING IN THE BIBLE AND RANTING ABOUT WHO DID WHAT. IF YOU WANT TO DO THAT, FINISH THE PASSAGE AND FIND WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL OF THESE PEOPLE WHO YOU READ DID NOT TRUST CHRIST. SOUNDS TO ME YOUR ACTING LIKE A LITTLE KID READING THE DICTIONARY TO FIND OUT WHAT BAD WORDS ARE IN THERE INSTEAD OF READING IT FOR WHAT ITS WORTH.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bluesman (& all), my sister has been and is asking those questions right now (lost her huband last November) and it's killing me. I don't know how to reach her. She accepted Christ as a child but because of our upbringing turned away from God. She has sought medical and psychological help in all forms, which kept her from killing herself, but she is so depressed and has made so many reckless decisions. I am scared for her and her three children (ages 16, 13, & 5).

How do you help someone see that where doctors and medicine fail, God is able? She was ticked off at God, which is understandable, but now she says she is too tired to be mad at anybody, including God. I've told her my experiences of God pulling me from the pit, but I feel the wall go up if I say anything about God.

It is frustrating and heart-breaking when you know the road to peace and healing but you cannot show someone that you love the power that is right there.

I know where God is when it hurts...
He hurts when I hurt, just like any good parent would.
He holds me up when I'm too weak to go on.
He rocks me to sleep when none will come.
He places joy and peace in my heart amidst sorrow.
He healed my pain and my scars and filled up the gaps in my soul with his Spirit to make me whole. Thank you, Lord.
He listens as I pour out my heart and gives me more in return than I could ever ask or imagine.
And one day, He will wipe away every tear and there will be no more pain, no more innocent lives ripped apart by war or famine or crime. Come, Lord Jesus.

Joy, you may not be the one who your sister needs right now. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I have a few suggestions, that you might consider. Your sister is hurting. I think we are all there at one time or another. One gospel song says,"if we never had a problem, we wouldn't know that God could solve them". I suggest that you seek out another 'believer', that you have confidence in, and ask them to pray with you for your sister. Someone, who is willing to get serious with God. Then, rely on the Holy Spirit to do what you can't. Your sister, because she is hurting so right now, is only hearing words. The words are pretty empty, because of her pain. She may even resent you a little for trying to tell her that it will be alright. Right now, I am sure that it is hard for her to think that she will ever be alright again. She is blessed to have you there. Just love her. Let the Lord talk to her. You should maybe not even try to witness to her. Just love her on whatever level you can reach her. Try and take her to a place where you know that she was happy, that does not remind her of her current pain. Depression is a horrible thing, it is hard to see any 'light' through such darkness. Remember, "If God will bring you to it, He will bring you through it." And, don't you get discouraged. I am sure that it may even make your sister a little resentful to see you, and others, living your lives right now, and being happy. Don't take it personally. She can't help what she feels, but God can. I will pray for you, as you pray for her.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
No, God is blameless. Yet He took our blame. He carried our cross until he collapsed beneath it.

Wait a minnit: I thought that was God's son who did that?

To Joy,

The message below was written tonight and sent to a young lady whose husband of eleven years died unexpectedly of a heart attack in mid-December. He was only 49; she is only 40. My wife, Dory, and I have just tried to love her; to help her in practical ways, such as financial; and to seek prayer for her from our different Bible study groups. And, slowly, we are trying to get her involved with the people of our church family. As one other person in this discussion wisely said, we cannot push them toward God; but, we can certainly guide them in the right direction.

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hi Aida,

Last week, when you and Dory went to visit Joey and MJ, it was not a coincidence that Pastor Nestor was there. God has a plan for all of us and unless we purposely choose to reject Him, He will orchestrate events in our lives to bring us to Him, to salvation. He will not force Himself upon us; but, will open the doors, or windows, or whatever, to bring us to a point where we can choose to receive Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior.

When Pastor Nestor chose to visit the home of Joey and MJ; God was putting all the pieces in place so that everything would be right for you. Through Dory, Joey, MJ, and Pastor Nestor; He brought you to the right place, at the right time, that your heart would be open to receiving Jesus into your heart and into your life, as your Lord and Savior. Praise the Lord, you did not turn away, but instead, you invited Jesus into your heart. You are now truly my sister in Christ.

But, just as when a new baby is born, it needs nourishment --- you, too, as a new babe in Christ, need to be nourished and fed from the Word of God, that you will grow in your knowledge of God's Word, the Bible, and that you will grow in your faith in Him. And, that you will learn to walk with him in your daily life; and to truly place all your cares upon Him.

When you prayed to received Jesus, the Holy Spirit came into you; He sealed you for Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit came to dwell within you and to seal you; to protect you, to guide you, to convict you, and to teach you.

In the Bible Dory and I gave you, which is a New King James Version, what I have just said is explained very well. In Ephesians
1:13, "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise."

That promise is that you are now a child of God; that you have His promise of eternal life with Him; and that no one can snatch you from Him. In John 10:27-28, Jesus tells you, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand." You have His promise of eternal security and eternal life with Him.

You see, Aida, we Christians do not have a religion --- we have a relationship; a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He is our personal Lord and Savior, He is our personal Friend. As a matter of fact, He is our very best Friend. When you have no one else with whom you can talk --- you can always talk with Him. That is prayer; just talking with your best Friend. And, that is why you do not need a prayer book, or pre-written prayers, or canned prayer or chants --- all you need to do is to talk with you Friend, Jesus.

If Dory were sitting with you, you would say, "Ate Dory, what do you think about this?" or "Ate Dory, can you help me with this problem?" That is the same way you talk (pray) with your best Friend, Jesus. There is no set time or place, no set prayer position --- but, continually, as you go through your day, you take time to say hello and have a chat with your best Friend, Jesus.

This is not to say that you do not set aside a special time and place for a serious talk, serious prayer. It is good to have your "quiet moment" your "special place" to have an indepth, soul-searching talk with Him. That is your prayer time.

Keeping this in the frame of talking with your best Friend; there are issues you will want to sit and spend time discussing with Him; possibly demanding things happening in your life at that time; or you may have friends who are in strong need of His intercession and help, and you bring them before Him. This is your "special prayer time" --- but, it does not preclude you talking with Him continually throughout the day, wherever you are.

When you prayed to receive Jesus, the Holy Spirit indwelt you, i.e., He now resides in you. He is your strength --- and you will need to go to Him daily for renewed strength. We call that daily "filling" of the Holy Spirit. How do you do this? You do it through daily being in prayer and through daily studying the Word of God, the Bible.

Although your salvation does not depend upon your gaining more knowledge of God's Word; your life will be far richer as you daily continue to gain new knowledge and new insights into the messages God has written in the Bible. That is why, you being a new babe in Christ, it is important that you have someone who can help you learn more about God, the Bible, and His desires for you life.

Aida, this is why Bible study and fellowship with other Christian believers is so important at this stage of your Christian life; it is the "mother's milk" of your new Christian growth.

As you first begin to read and study the Bible, it can often be very confusing. When that happens, you have three helpers. First, the Holy Spirit will help you to better understand what God is teaching you --- but, often, the Holy Spirit will guide you to another Christian to discuss the Scripture that is confusing you. This is your second helper. At that time, I want you to remember that you can always call Dory or me at any time. You have our telephone numbers; you have our e-mails. You can use them at any time, day or night.

The third helper that God, the Holy Spirit, has for you is your Bible study group. We call them Care Groups; for everyone in our group "cares" for you and for every member of our Care Group. On Sundays, when you come to church and Sunday School; your Care Group is now the whole church. In both our Care Group and in our Church, you will feel the love of Jesus Christ --- just for you.

While I will suggest that you begin your journey in God's Word by first reading the book of John; there are two Bible verses which I will suggest are the building blocks of our Christian faith.

The first is Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The validity of the Bible, of our Christian faith, sits upon that initial building block; for, if God is not the Creator, if He is not the preexistent God --- then the rest of the Bible is meaningless.

The other verse which is a building block of our Christian faith is John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." This tells us that before God began to create the heavens and the earth --- Jesus, the Word, was preexisting. He has eternally existed because He is God, God the Son, the second person of the Trinity. If, as some religions teach, Jesus is not God --- then our Christian faith is not true and there is no hope for anyone.

But, praise the Lord, God is the Creator --- and Jesus Christ is God the Son, the second person in the Trinity. And, when you invited Jesus into your heart, you became a member of the family of God --- and no one can take that from you.

Since we met you in December, you have become like a member of our earthly family. Now, Dory and I are even happier to have you as a member of our Christian family. We pray that you will join us in our Bible studies (Care Groups) and in our Sunday worship services. But, don't forget that you can always call us at any time; for we do love you.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The message below was written tonight and sent to a young lady whose husband of eleven years died unexpectedly of a heart attack

I'm sure you had the best intentions but this rambling letter has hardly ANYTHING of value to someone who just suffered a tremendous loss.

This letter is nothing but a solicitation to join your cult. Personally, I'd run from you as fast as I could . . . Okay, I'm not rude enough to do that but I'd darn sure push you away.

This woman needs grief counseling, friends and someone to make her laugh. More than anything, she needs needs someone to help her cry.

My letter to her would be something like this:

"Yo girl. My family, my thoughts and my prayers** are with you. Our family loves you and your husband more than words can say. Just know that you will never grieve alone.

I'll be coming over to mow your lawn on a weekly basis until you make me to stop. If you think of something that needs to be done (change a light bulb, trim a tree, drink your beer, that kinda thing), just chase me down while I'm on the mower and it shall be done.

I know a wonderful grief counselor that is familiar with your situation and is willing to help. Her phone number is 555-1212. Her services won't cost you a thing*.

Your friend,
Me"

Isn't that a heck of a lot more helpful that a few pages of gobbledyg00k about conversing with voices in your head?

(* the grieving wife doesn't need to know that I arranged for the grief counselor to send her bill to my address)
(** I wouldn't really pray for her but she doesn't have to know that)

Originally posted by what4:
God is blameless. Yet He took our blame. He carried our cross until he collapsed beneath it.
Follow up Question by GoFish: Wait a minnit: I thought that was God's son who did that?

________________________________________________

Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

God is seen as our heavenly Father. We also see God in His Son Jesus and in the working of the Holy Spirit. God is too huge for us to comprehend; yet His character can be seen in His Son Jesus. Although Jesus was born of a virgin, He existed before time began. If this is difficult to accept, then consider this. Which would be easiest for you to do? … to die for someone, or to send your son to die? I don’t know of a better way for God our Creator to reach out and relate to us than to become one of us? Jesus gave up His place in heaven for a short time in order to walk as one of us. He was tempted in every way that we are, but was without sin. In unwavering faith and love He remained focused and obedient to the purpose for which He came. He could point a finger of criticism at us if He chose to, but that is not His character. There is no pain that we feel that Jesus has not felt. He knows our every weakness and He understands. He doesn’t condone our sins. Yet He understands more than we realize, because he walked as one of us. He did not come to condemn us, but to offer mercy. As was said earlier by bluesman, there are many great men of God who in times of trouble have doubted either His existence or His love. I would presume to say that all of God’s children have doubted Him at some point and time. I’m no better and much worse than many. The fact is that nobody deserves God’s love or mercy. Why He loves and cares for us, who often listen to and side with His enemy, I don’t know. Yet God is very near to all who will call on Him. If there is yet a small crack in the door of your heart, please don’t close it completely in His face. I can’t presume to understand what you or others have had to go through. But I do know that God understands. Often those who are most burdened down and criticized for their poor attitude would in many situations be stronger than those criticizing them. I’m not here to point a finger, except to point it to the one who cares more than I do. I know for a fact that He will receive you with open arms if you turn to Him. I would be a fool to presume I know all the answers, and I’m just as capable of failure as anyone else. God continually shows much mercy to me. If I have learned nothing else, I’ve learned that I’m nothing and a miserable failure apart from God. Every child is different. We all go through different circumstances in life that contribute much to who we are. As one person has stated, let the person who criticizes me stand in my shoes and then see what he believes. I have left God more times than I want to share. His mercy is great and without it I’d be hopeless. I’m only trying to let you know that God truly cares. I’m not the answer for anyone. All I can hope to do is point you to the answer, and try to help you to understand that He truly cares.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:

You see, Aida, we Christians do not have a religion --- we have a relationship; a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He is our personal Lord and Savior, He is our personal Friend. As a matter of fact, He is our very best Friend. When you have no one else with whom you can talk --- you can always talk with Him. That is prayer; just talking with your best Friend. And, that is why you do not need a prayer book, or pre-written prayers, or canned prayer or chants --- all you need to do is to talk with you Friend, Jesus.

I love the way you put that ... that is exactly how I explain my faith -- it's not a Sunday/Wednesday thing or a go to X church thing -- it is a daily walk with me and my best friend...He has been there when earthly family and friends couldn't handle my troubles...He has been there at 3am on several occasions when satan just wouldn't leave me alone...He may be a voice in my head to some, but He talks to me and walks with me every day of my life...that is the greatest gift any FRIEND can give...and He would have died on that cross even if I had been the only one...Thank you Bill...

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
If I have learned nothing else, I’ve learned that I’m nothing and a miserable failure apart from God.

Man, you're being a little harsh on yourself, ain't ye?

Me? I'm about as happy, giving, successful, lucky, and getting more out of life than I ever dreamed without beating myself up like that. I owe all of that to one person and one person only: Me, myself and I (okay, that's three people but you get the idea).

I'm glad that all that mumbo-jumbo works for you but no thanks.

From GoFish:
Quote: Man, you're being a little harsh on yourself, ain't ye?

________________________________________________

Maybe so my friend, but that's because I often see myself in the light of who God is. In the light of what God has done for me and in the light of what little I have done for Him, I do get very down on myself. I want to change overnight. I am impatient. I owe Him my all, and I feel that I give Him so little. Yet God doesn’t need my help, but only my availability and faithfulness. But when I focus on God and what He has done for me, and what He has in store for me, my spirit is lifted up. So don’t be concerned for me my friend, because I am in good hands. God is good. I would hope that you might give God a chance but your choice is yours. God is very real in my life, and has answered prayer time and time again. He has done it in ways that defy the odds. Mumbo Jumbo I don’t get into. Some believe that God doesn’t do miracles anymore. If God moved on behalf of some people they might have a heart attack in surprise. They pray but they expect nothing. I have no concern in following a God who is little more than an imagination. I don’t have any doubt that God exists, because He has proven it to me time and time again. I have been offered your outlook on life more than once, but there is no future in it. You might want to read the word of God. You don’t have to tell anybody. Read the book of John from beginning to end. Who knows, you might begin to see more than what meets the eye. If you don’t, no harm is done. I wish you well.

Well put, what4.

Yeah blues, I don't catorgorize myself with that kind of "Christian". I think TBN is a joke. I believe that there are some good Christian people who are on there but the people who run it are shady in my opinion. And I believe there might even be people on there who claim to be "Christian" just to make money. If that is the case I truly doubt where they stand with the God I believe in. But it is not up to me to judge their hearts. So, let me say this. They may be that way but I am not. And before the nay-sayers jump on. I do not think I am perfect. Good day.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
The message below was written tonight and sent to a young lady whose husband of eleven years died unexpectedly of a heart attack

(** I wouldn't really pray for her but she doesn't have to know that)

Okay, this is just another observation. But it seems to me the fact that you would tell the lady you would pray for her(lead her to belive you are something your not) and then not follow through is well....once again, hypocritical. And why would someone who is a self-prclaimed athiest going to pretend there is a god? Isn't that hypocritical? And isn't it somewhere in the athiest handbook that you can't profess there is a God or you might go to heaven. Sorry, just pondering. And I say this with all due respect, my good GoFish.

quote:

Originally posted by bluesman *:
outspokenjerk, before I get call an athiest, of whom I like also, God does not live in a CHURCH, behind walls of stone, he does not care what we give HIM, if I am not mistaken and so goes for the athiest, love of each other is what this whole world needs, to many wars, to many tears, to much heartbreak, not enough caring for our fellow man and woman. This whole world needs to change.

Although I have no idea where that came from, you make some good points. God does not live in the building we call "church". He lives in the hearts of those who have accepted Him and His call. THEY are the church. And hey, I have friends who are athiest. I have friends who are homosexual. I have friends who are addicts. And you know what? I love them. See, I am not like the misunderstood people who hate the alcoholic and not the alcoholism. I love the alcoholic, but I hate the alcoholism. I agree we need to love people more. That is the example Christ set. LOVE. That IS what Christianity is all about. But alot of Christians, have gotten caught up in the whole law part of it. All the legalism and tradition. That is NOT what Christianity is about. It is about, once again, LOVE.

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
Okay, this is just another observation. But it seems to me the fact that you would tell the lady you would pray for her(lead her to belive you are something your not) and then not follow through is well....once again, hypocritical.

Well, I suppose it would be hypocritical if atheism was some sort of religion with dogma and established doctrines to follow. But it isn't. It's simply an absence of belief in a divine being.
This absence of belief allow me to be hypocritical, commit sins of indulgence and sleep in on Sunday with no fear of burning for eternity - just a few of the many benefits of atheism.

As long as the Man in the Mirror is okay with soothing a poor widow with a little white lie, then I'm cool.

I suppose your point would be more valid if I actually DID pray, though.

quote:

Originally posted by gypsyc:
Joy, you may not be the one who your sister needs right now. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I have a few suggestions, that you might consider. Your sister is hurting. I think we are all there at one time or another. One gospel song says,"if we never had a problem, we wouldn't know that God could solve them". I suggest that you seek out another 'believer', that you have confidence in, and ask them to pray with you for your sister. Someone, who is willing to get serious with God. Then, rely on the Holy Spirit to do what you can't. Your sister, because she is hurting so right now, is only hearing words. The words are pretty empty, because of her pain. She may even resent you a little for trying to tell her that it will be alright. Right now, I am sure that it is hard for her to think that she will ever be alright again. She is blessed to have you there. Just love her. Let the Lord talk to her. You should maybe not even try to witness to her. Just love her on whatever level you can reach her. Try and take her to a place where you know that she was happy, that does not remind her of her current pain. Depression is a horrible thing, it is hard to see any 'light' through such darkness. Remember, "If God will bring you to it, He will bring you through it." And, don't you get discouraged. I am sure that it may even make your sister a little resentful to see you, and others, living your lives right now, and being happy. Don't take it personally. She can't help what she feels, but God can. I will pray for you, as you pray for her.

Thank you, friend. I really needed to hear that. And you are right, I can't but God can. He did it for me, not because of what a person said or did either. His timing is perfect.

To my friend, GoFish,

GOFISH SAYS: I'm sure you had the best intentions but this rambling letter has hardly ANYTHING of value to someone who just suffered a tremendous loss. This letter is nothing but a solicitation to join your cult. Personally, I'd run from you as fast as I could . . . Okay, I'm not rude enough to do that but I'd darn sure push you away. This woman needs grief counseling, friends and someone to make her laugh. More than anything, she needs needs someone to help her cry.
_________________________________________________

BILL GRAY'S RESPONSE: You call Christianity a cult; I call it a relationship with Jesus Christ. You are happy to be an atheist; I am happy to be a born-again Christian. One day, we will both stand before Jesus Christ to answer for the life we lived on this earth. Yes, you will also stand before Him. You see, in this life you have a choice whether you will walk with Him or reject Him. After this life, you will not have a choice --- you WILL stand before Him to be judged; as will I.

There are two points of view about this. First, the atheist declares that God does not exist --- therefore, live as you like. We Christians know that God exists --- and that we ALL will stand before Him in judgment. Let's say that I am right, that there is a God and that He will reward me with eternal happiness after I leave this world; so, I live a clean, Christian life, respecting others and trying to help others. This makes me happy.

On the other hand, you do not believe there is a God; so, you drink, carouse, party-hearty, and do other self-destructive things which destroy the body and mind. You believe in "live for today" for there is no tomorrow. What have you accomplished, other than making yourself and, most likely, those around you miserable?

If you are right, at the end of this life, there is nothing --- just a dark, empty grave where you will rot forever.

If I am right, at the end of this life, there is eternal happiness in the presence of Jesus Christ.

If I am wrong, what have I lost? For I have lived a peaceful, healthy, happy life --- regardless of where I go afterwards.

If you are wrong, what have you lost? You have lost your eternal soul; and for what, a few years of party and fun?
_________________________________________________

GOFFISH SAYS: My letter to her would be something like this:

"Yo girl. My family, my thoughts and my prayers** are with you. Our family loves you and your husband more than words can say. Just know that you will never grieve alone.

I'll be coming over to mow your lawn on a weekly basis until you make me to stop. If you think of something that needs to be done --- change a light bulb, trim a tree, drink your beer, that kinda thing --- just chase me down while I'm on the mower and it shall be done.

I know a wonderful grief counselor that is familiar with your situation and is willing to help. Her phone number is 555-1212. Her services won't cost you a thing*.

Your friend,
Me"
_________________________________________________

BILL GRAY'S RESPONSE: You are right; that we should assure Aida that we are praying for her. That we have done, as well as making sure that our church and our different Bible study groups are praying for her. As for loving her husband, that is beyond us now, for he is no longer in this world. I did not know him, so it would be wrong for me to speculate where he is right now. However, I do know that, once we leave this world, our destiny is set --- no amount of prayer will change that.

You mention doing practical things to help. We have done this. I have done things around her home; fixed what I could, etc. My wife, Dory, who is a real estate broker and loan officer is helping her seek refinancing of her home. You see, her husband died without life insurance because he was diabetic; so she is pressed financially.

As a side note to Aid's financial problems, a couple in one of our Bible studies, who did not know Aida, called last week to tell Dory that God has put on their heart to help Aida financially --- so, they arranged to loan this woman they do not know $5000 to help her until her loan can be approved. That is Christian love with feet!

You suggest sending her to a "grief counselor." That is the last thing that I would do --- for most psychologists and psychiatrists lean toward atheistic beliefs and teachings. Aida needs the love of God, administered through Christians who are His hands and feet on this earth --- not an atheistic counselor convincing her that, since childhood she has been abused, and that she hates her mother.
_________________________________________________

GOFISH SAYS: Isn't that a heck of a lot more helpful that a few pages of gobbledy**** about conversing with voices in your head?

(* the grieving wife doesn't need to know that I arranged for the grief counselor to send her bill to my address)
(** I wouldn't really pray for her but she doesn't have to know that)
_________________________________________________

BILL GRAY'S RESPONSE: The first thought that comes to my mind is, "With friends like this; who need enemies?" You tell her that you will pray for her --- yet, you do not believe in God nor prayer. Why lie to her?

It is admirable that you would "pay for her grief counselor" --- but, it would be better if you spent that money to buy her a new Bible. By the way, my wife and I did give Aida a new Bible.

You may feel that prayer is "gobbledy**** about conversing with voices in your head" --- that is your loss. However, if you feel that way; why would you tell a person who is grieving that YOU will PRAY for him/her? That does not make sense. But, then, neither does atheism.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day in the Lord,

Bill Gray
billdory@pacbell.net

Bill - It's nice to see another believer in this forum. I can tell that one of your spiritual gifts is uplifting people. Hope to see you around here more, you really have a way of putting things into perspective. I sometimes lose my temper a little and respond in the flesh on these forums, however, to see you answer so gracefully and with love, you really have set a new standard for me. Please pray for me to have that kind of grace.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Gray:
life, you will not have a choice --- you WILL stand before Him to be judged; as will I.

Ahh yes. He LOVES me! And if I don't love him back, he will send me to burn in hell, right? Tough love, man. Tough.

quote:

There are two points of view about this. First, the atheist declares that God does not exist --- therefore, live as you like.

Completely and utterly wrong. Atheists simply need to omnipotent mind reader who liveth in the clouds to make us behave. We lead a morally upstanding life and do unto others with nothing more than the man in the mirror to keep us in line. Strange but true.

quote:

On the other hand, you do not believe there is a God; so, you drink, carouse, party-hearty, and do other self-destructive things which destroy the body and mind.

Oh? Yeah, I guess you tee-totalers would believe the at my daily beer or single glass of wine (more than one puts my butt to sleep, now-a-days) will render my soul to the devil.

Ba-HAA!

buddy, I don't know what the heck your preacher teaches you about atheists but about the most self destructive thing I do to myself is my daily jog. My ankles kill me.

quote:

You believe in "live for today" for there is no tomorrow.

Well, I believe in "seize the day" which means grab life by the short hair and squeeze all you can out of it. To this anteist, that means spend every moment I can loving my young sons and wife, enjoying nature in all its beauty and occaisionally doing something nice for others.

If that's "living for today" then guilty as charged.

quote:

If you are wrong, what have you lost? You have lost your eternal soul; and for what, a few years of party and fun?

Naw, man! I've lived a full life and not wasted any of it worshiping a figment of your imagination! If there is an afterlife, that's just icing on the cake. But there isn't so I don't worry about it.

quote:

You suggest sending her to a "grief counselor." That is the last thing that I would do --- for most psychologists and psychiatrists lean toward atheistic beliefs and teachings.

You don't know what you are talking about and that's the problem. Your friend needs PROFESSIONAL help. I've got very close, personal experience with one particular counselor. Lynn M. is about the most devout, wonderful counselor I know. She would provide real help to your friend instead of the armature hour provided by people who listen to voices in their heads.

bluesman’s comment:
Glory hallelujah, these people read the book of John to all the way to the bank, stroll down the site and see.
_____________________________________________________________________________
I’m not exactly sure of your point; unless you are saying reading the bible doesn’t make a difference. I agree only in part. It’s not the hearer of the word who is justified but the doer. I also believe that many don’t search the word of God for answers, but rather to find the scriptures to back up what they already believe. However, if a man never hears, how will he believe? If all you ever hear is the prosecutor and never hear the defense, you wouldn’t have any reason not to believe the prosecutor…. and of course vice versa. Those that are in the world hear what the world has to say. All I’m trying to do is to offer the choice for those to hear the opposing point of view before they make a final decision. And the best place to get God’s point of view is directly from His word. Yet if they truly want to understand it they need to believe in and talk to the one who wrote it. It’s hard to read the word of God without coming to the conclusion that the words are more than the words of men. Men tend to give glory to themselves, and their answers change with their circumstances. God is true to His word from the beginning to the ending. When you go to God for truth, you will find He never changes His mind about truth. God never changes. We in this day and time have a greater understanding of God that the men in early days, because God has chosen to reveal Himself through Jesus Christ. The site you directed us to points to a few who feel that God is out to bring them wealth and prosperity in this life. They have jumped out of the boat on this issue and it is a dangerous conclusion to draw. For our prosperity is God Himself. Those who set their eyes on what they can obtain and lay up for themselves in this life’s goods are poor indeed. It’s kind of like storing up lots of meat without preserving it in a freezer, because it will mean nothing for you down the road after it all rots. We can’t have our eyes on worldly things or have our hearts set on obtaining riches, and expect to grow rich in heavenly things that are eternal. Where our heart is, there will our treasure be also. God will supply all our needs if we only put Him first. Yet often what we want is not what we need. That’s all the more reason to go straight to God’s word and bypass many who want to put their own spin on it. If you want to know the truth, then you must go to the source of truth. Knowing truth comes by both hearing the word of God, and knowing the Word of God. Jesus is both the living Word and the Truth. The bible holds His truth, but it is often interpreted to man’s own liking. Those who go to Jesus and seek a close relationship with Him will begin to have His truth written on their hearts and well as in their mind. They may be poor in this life, but they will have food to eat and shelter when they need it. And God will not forsake them in the tough times. It is often the poor who have to depend on God the most, and in so doing they learn to trust Him. It is often the poor who have the greatest relationship with Jesus, because He proves Himself strong to those who put their trust in Him. Yet the poor can also have a heart set on gaining riches. But for those who are truly poor, know they have nothing of any value unless it is in God and from God. It is those who are truly rich. Should they get sick, God is there. Should they lose a loved one, God is there. Should they be tormented, God will be their defender and help in time of need. The world doesn’t understand this, and neither do many who have all the world’s comforts but yet are weak in faith. Sometimes we have to experience pain and problems in order for God to show Himself strong and reveal Himself. Sometimes we have to have no food on the table or no way out, before we can truly experience what it is to trust in Jesus, and see Him come through for us. If we went through life always having the means and ability to provide for our own selves, we would never know true happiness. We would be at the mercy of what we own and never know the deeper and greater things in life. We would never know the life giver, and how He can truly make all the difference. We can choose to read every book in the world and be intelligent, but still be fools. We can call on every man made religion there is and still be empty and unsatisfied. Often man’s religions points to ourselves to make the difference and puts all the burden on our own backs to measure up or find our own way. People are well practiced in inventing some god of their own making. If you look in the bible from beginning to end, you will find that the only man the bible gives praise to and is perfect, without fault or blemish, is Jesus Christ the Son of God. All others as you mention fail God at some point in their lives. If you have read the bible then you should know that was the reason that Jesus had to die for us. If we could live for Him without failure we would need no sacrifice to be made for us, and all that He did for us would be for nothing. It’s all there.

quote:

Originally posted by bluesman *:
outspokenjerk, before I get call an athiest, of whom I like also, God does not live in a CHURCH, behind walls of stone, he does not care what we give HIM, if I am not mistaken and so goes for the athiest, love of each other is what this whole world needs, to many wars, to many tears, to much heartbreak, not enough caring for our fellow man and woman. This whole world needs to change.

I believe you are referring to a church building. Churches, like schools and hospitals, are composed of individuals. They are housed in buildings (most of the time). No, God does not live in a church building, but he is with every church that worships Him in spirit and in truth.

My dear friends Bill and Gofish:

the subject of atheist morality is far too deep to explain thoroughly here. A few things need to be said, however.

Atheists are not immoral by definition. It is parochial and self-serving to say that morality is a function of religion. Many, probably most, atheists are moral people, living their lives in accord with well reasoned values. I imagine atheists are moral in about the same percentage of religious people. There are certainly many immoral religious people.

Morality is, essentially, subjective. It is a set of social mores that varies depending on the culture in which one lives. Bill will disagree with this, saying that morality is revealed in the bible, but even within christian cultures morality is widely variable. In our Western culture, cannibalism (for example) is considered immoral to the extreme, but in New Guinea, among the old tribes, to avoid cannibalism is just as immoral. To say one culture is right and the other wrong is parochial and subjective.

People do not become atheists to avoid morality. I can't speak for other atheists, but I am somewhat consumed with morality. Without forgiveness or reward, I only have my integrity to consider, and it means much to me. I do not need the threat of hell to be kind to animals, pay my taxes, open the door for ladies, avoid criminal activity, and seek the best qualities of others.

There is some scientific evidence that morality is a quality of the human animal that makes social existence possible. Imagine if we all considered murder acceptable for any reason. Society could not flourish, and we would all be worse off for it. There's a reason why 99% of us are not in prison.

Finally, the Golden Rule was not invented by jesus. it only makes common sense. Philosophers for thousands of years have parsed the subject to fine detail, but always arrive at the same end: the Golden Rule. it's a matter of logic, a uniquely human trait. Tigers are not burdened by logic, they kill when they are hungry or bored. All of us humans are somewhat more reticent.

I would suggest that philosophy, not religion, is the better way to arrive at a proper morality. Religion is revelatory, by nature, and if those revelations (take the quran, for example, which teaches violence against non-believers) teach anti-social behavior, then there will be more anti-social behavior. More's the pity.

Religion aside, philosophers such as Frankl and Ghandi have posited that love for one another is the default condition of human kind, and the essence of morality. I agree.

In my best wishes for us all, I love you both, and I love you all.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
My dear friends Bill and Gofish:

<snip of what I would have written myself if I had a clearer head>

In my best wishes for us all, I love you both, and I love you all.

DF

Man, dang right my brother. Do you have any sisters? Not that I'd leave my wife for her but it would be nice to know one was out there just in case.

bluesman’s question:
outside of the Bible, is there anyway of knowing that where one really goes, when life is over.

Bluesman, Here is one site you might consider. http://www.josephus-1.com/
It tells of the writings of Josephus, a Jewish Historian. Although he does not inform you of this answer, He does make reference to Jesus and His followers. If you have time, read also the other comments I have below.

You want to know about the question of life after death apart from the bible. Where are you going to go for the correct answer? You can talk to the atheists and they will tell you we exist without rhyme or reason, and that our life is no more or less than that of a tree or a ****roach. They will tell you that when this life is over that there is nothing else. You ask them about how life began and how we became what we are today, and they will smile and say that time is the answer. Time gave them life by somehow injecting its wondrous capabilities into lifeless organic matter that evolved into what it is today. They have a word for this that they call evolution. What is evolution? It is the ability of organic materials to evolve into complicated life forms by adding the element of time. Can time make all the difference? Consider a dead and lifeless body that died because of a bad heart. Replace the defective heart with a good heart. All the necessary organic material that is necessary for life to exist is already neatly in place and requires no further evolving. That eliminates the impossible odds of this happening again. All that is required is this mysterious element called time to introduce life. This simplifies things greatly! Life is all that’s needed, and the mysterious element of time will make all the difference. Wait……Wait……..….Wait………..Wait……….Wait…….
Did you see it? Did you see how it came to life? No? Wait a little longer because it’s bound to work. Life is the only component that has not yet come into existence, and time will make the difference. Time is the answer. Billions of years make all the difference. Throw away all that mumbo jumbo superstition that’s so illogical. Put your trust in time.

My friend you are studying the phenomena of life, and whether or not there is life after death. Scientific evidence only explains what can be examined under a microscope or watched carefully in a controlled environment. All that scientists can’t explain but want to believe they call theories. Theories help keep all of them from looking like fools while they continually search for the answers. Occasionally they are so impressed with their theories that they demand that it be taught to our children in school, so that their still undeveloped minds might accept it as logical. Ain’t man impressive?

Apart from a life source, life cannot exist. If you believe that life exists from organic material and time, then study organic material and time for your answer. However, I believe that God is the source of life. Jesus boldly declared that He was the Son of God, and that He was I AM, without beginning or ending.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

Who do you know who has made such claims, and then backed it up by their actions.

Why go to the bible? It focuses on the source of life, and the reason that death has come into the world. If you want to know if life exists after death, then go to the source of life for the answers. His name is Jesus. Jesus proved that He had authority over life and death when he raised the widow’s son from the dead. He stood at the tomb of Lazarus who had been dead for 4 days, and cried out Lazarus come forth. He that was dead arose. Jesus was crucified on a cross and placed in a tomb that was guarded by Roman soldiers. Yet His grave came up empty, and none could explain it. If you want further proof, look at the life of the apostles and disciples of Jesus after they saw Him crucified on the cross. For a few days they kept locked doors, fearing for their lives, afraid that the high priests and Roman soldiers, or the enemies of Jesus would search them out and kill them also. But suddenly they boldly stood up and declared that Jesus was alive, and that they had seen Him with their own eyes. They did this in the audience of the very ones who delivered Jesus to be crucified. Jesus appeared to many after His resurrection and those who saw Him were never the same. They even went about doing miracles in the name of Jesus. They could not be stopped from spreading the gospel message in spite of facing torture, beheadings, being burned to death, being ripped and eaten by wild beasts, and continually having their lives at risk, when all they would have had to do to end it all was say that they were liars, and that Jesus had not risen from the grave. Or at minimum they could have faded away and got lost in the crowd, never to mention His name again. How foolish they would have been if they had given their lives and withstood all the persecution, because of a lie.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Will you believe someone searching for truth, or will you believe in the One who says He is the truth, and then proved it by His miracles, by His very life, and by defying death and leaving behind and empty tomb? Read the bible and you’ll learn about Jesus. It will tell you all you need to know about the after life and how to live again.

Look at the words of Josephus, a Jewish historian, and consider his description of the events and the times of Jesus and his followers. http://www.josephus-1.com/
Look at the transformed lives of the Apostles and the followers of Jesus, and how they boldly declared His word, even to the very people who crucified Jesus on the cross. Talk to those who know Jesus as Lord and Savior today, and have seen His hand in their lives. Do you still have doubt, then begin to search deeper into the things of God, and seek God diligently in prayer, and ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you. You can’t go to God without first going to His Son Jesus. It appears that you also are looking beyond what the eye can see and searching for answers. The problem is you are looking in all the wrong places. The bible is proof in itself of God’s existence for many reasons. It may have to be accepted by faith, but it is not blind faith. Look at the following and examine how the life of Jesus was prophesied about and recorded in the scriptures with incredible accuracy, years before His coming into the world.

Isaiah 53:1 - 10
Ps 22:14 -18
Consider the below excerpt from a site I found:

“Jesus said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’” Luke 24:44 (NIV)

The Old Testament verses are the prophecy; the New Testament verses proclaim the fulfillment. Check them all out for yourself!
· Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)
· A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)
· Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)
· Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)
· Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)
· Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)
· Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)
· Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)
· Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)
· Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)
· Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)
· Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)
· Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)
· Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)
· Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)
· Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:
1. rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)
2. betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)
3. sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)
4. silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)
5. being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)
6. beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)
7. spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)
8. piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
9. being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
10. praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
11. piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)
12. given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)
13. no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)
14. buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)
15. casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)
· Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)
· Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)
· Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

What4

Sorry, not convinced. There are no original texts of Josephus' works. All we have are "translations" from the philosophically corrupt middle ages. There is a large body of thought that says Josephus' mention of jesus is a Medieval corruption.

Then, you use the bible as proof of your arguments. It's proof of nothing. It's an old collection of stories, arbitrarily edited, dependent on older stories, written by dogmatic men.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Jesus boldly declared that He was the Son of God, and that He was I AM, without beginning or ending.

There you go again with that. Was he the SON of Gawd or Gawd Himself? It can't be both. He was one or the other.

If he was the son of Gawd, then wasn't Gawd a little harsh when he sent his son down here for some punishment? What did Jesus do to deserve all that, forget to clean his room?

DeepFat
Quote: Sorry, not convinced. There are no original texts of Josephus' works. All we have are "translations" from the philosophically corrupt middle ages.

He asked for other books. I gave him one. As always, a person will believe what they want.


Quote: Then, you use the bible as proof of your arguments. It's proof of nothing.

It’s hard to ignore the odds of prophesies from hundreds to thousands of years ago coming to be fulfilled in one person. Jesus turned the world upside down with His message and His miracles backed up His claims with authority and power. The miracles and healings that so marked the life of Jesus confirmed His testimony that He was the Son of God. But the religious leaders would not accept it, because they already had a made up mind. They considered Christ’s followers as foolish and unlearned people who were deceived by His miracles to believe that He was actually who He said He was. They prided themselves in the knowledge of the writings concerning the law and the prophets, but they could not see so clearly how the prophecies were being fulfilled before their own eyes. Often people will believe what they want, no matter if the evidence is contrary against it. Study what special day it was that Jesus was tried and crucified, and how He was so fittingly examined and searched for fault by the priests, and then selected to be sacrificed outside the walls of the city of Jerusalem. All the things that happened to Jesus coincided in extreme detail and remarkable coincidental timing in relation to the figurative meanings revealed in the religious ceremonial events taking place. It all so came together in such a fitting way, that only God Himself could have planned it all. This was no ordinary time for the Jewish faith. Talk to some person who understands this ceremonial event that was taking place when Jesus was being tried and crucified. Then take a deep and close look, and you will be amazed by it all. Jesus did not offer His life as a ransom for all, until the time had fully come that was before ordained of God, and had been prophesied concerning Him. The very detail in which the Old Testament prophesies were fulfilled concerning Jesus could not have all been manipulated to match, even if someone were trying to do so. How are you going to manipulate your family history, the way you are tortured by others, the timing of your torture, and so many other things that would have been totally out of human control. The bible does prove itself to those who study it in the light of the whole truth it presents. There are deeper mysteries there than what many ever realize. God will reveal Himself to those who truly seek Him. His Word is full of depth, and it is life to those who will hear and receive it.

The Apostle Paul and his writings are an incredible testimony to the reality of Jesus. Paul’s writings have been studied and have been determined to exist only a few years after Jesus had lived, died, and rose again. Paul was a man who with great conviction and sincerity went about to imprison and put to death those who he believed were deceiving the people by their testimony concerning Jesus being the Christ and Son of God. On the way to Damascus to persecute the Christians, he was transformed in His encounter with Jesus. From that day forward Paul may have made more impact on the development of the church than any other disciple of Jesus. The same man who fervently persecuted Christians for their faith, was transformed and willingly suffered great persecution for his testimony concerning Jesus. The one who terrified the Christians with how he persecuted them, later counted His sufferings for Jesus as an honor and a privilege. The writings of Paul concerning Jesus were written in a time when they could have been easily disproved and rebutted by contradictory writings or testimonies of eyewitnesses who could have spoken or written otherwise. But where were they, and where are there writings? Why are they not found preserved by the Jewish culture that considered Jesus to be a blasphemer? Where are the old manuscripts that rebut the testimony of Paul and others concerning Jesus? The miracles of Jesus were common and were well known by thousands of people, and if they had not been true, there would have been an uprising and public mockery of the Christian faith concerning the testimony of Him. All those who hated Jesus could do was to try and destroy His testimony and character. None could deny His miracles. The fact that the manuscripts and letters concerning Jesus were written and read in a time when many still lived who had saw and heard Jesus, helps make them credible. This was not the United Stated my friend. Scoffers mock the New Testament writings today, but it’s hard to convince first hand witnesses that what they saw and heard with their own eyes, never actually took place. It’s about the same as trying to convince those today that truly know Jesus as Lord and Savior, that He is not real, but only a figment of their imagination.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Paul’s writings have been studied and have been determined to exist only a few years after Jesus had lived, died, and rose again.

So how old was He when he died the second time? Did he marry, have kids, that kinda thing? Or did he simply retire. There's not much written about His activities after reanimation.

Can't blame him id he retired. Death would probably stop me form doing some things, too.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Paul’s writings have been studied and have been determined to exist only a few years after Jesus had lived, died, and rose again.

So how old was He when he died the second time? Did he marry, have kids, that kinda thing? Or did he simply retire. There's not much written about His activities after reanimation.

Can't blame him id he retired. Death would probably stop me form doing some things, too.

I'm not sure if your post is the result of ignorance or a very warped sense of humor. Either way, it's hardly amusing. In fact, it's disgusting.

http://www.uoregon.edu/~dfalk/courses/jesus/miracles.htm

DF

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I'm not sure if your post is the result of ignorance or a very warped sense of humor. Either way, it's hardly amusing. In fact, it's disgusting.

Oh, I'm completely serious. Don't you ever wonder why there wasn't much written about Jesus after he died then lived again? Where did he go? What did he do for a living?

What is so disgusting about wanting to know such a simple thing?

It's like he just gave up after he died, ya know?

gof, go get a copy of The Last Temptation of Christ. I suggest the book, but the movie is pretty good.

Wouldn't it be interesting if stories emerged about L. Ron Hubbard visiting the faithful from the dead? What if only a few people, say Tom Cruise and John Travolta, saw him, but swore to it? Wouldn't Scientologists everywhere take L. Ron's reincarnation on faith?

Would you trust them?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
gof, go get a copy of The Last Temptation of Christ. I suggest the book, but the movie is pretty good.

I tried to watch the movie. I'm too much or a wuss and had to turn it off, though.

I'm aware of His "sightings" of course. He appeared to Mary and hung with a few friends but that doesn't tell us what he did for a living after the, you know, cross thing.

In response to all the professing atheists and hopefully to be in closing as well:

When a good detective searches a crime scene, he will be prepared to search diligently and thoroughly for any and all evidence. A bad detective will have drawn a conclusion before he starts and will ignore any evidence that is contrary against it. What evidence do you have that proves your point and disproves mine? If you have no conclusive evidence, then why are you so intent on ignoring what so many see besides you? There is more evidence to be found than scientific evidence alone, and a good detective will not ignore it. There is much evidence to be seen by the ordinary eye to convince many that God is real, yet you ignore it and fall back to asking for proof using scientific data. You can’t put God under a microscope and study Him. Yet He offers evidence everywhere of His existence.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Ro 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

I have foolishly wasted my time presenting evidence to those not interested in it. There are many who believe as I do, but they are much wiser than I am and are not wasting their time with you. Jesus said the following.

Mt 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I deserve all the rending that you have to offer, because I have continually ignored God’s leading, and stubbornly thought you would listen to reason.

GoFish, If you want to see Jesus and learn about what He is doing, you are going to have to stop turning your head and looking away from Him. You won’t find him walking around in Wal-Mart. Those who Jesus talked to and spent time with before He finally ascended to heaven, were those who had believed in Him and followed Him beforehand. He only reveals Himself to those who search for Him, and are willing to receive Him as Lord and Savior of their lives. Until you are willing to do that, you will never know Him. Many know Him today, but you are not willing to listen to their testimony about Him. God either has already revealed Himself, or will reveal Himself strong in the lives of each Christian in some way or another. Many say they know Him when they don’t follow Him. Then when tough times come they fall away and mock Him for not being there for them. However I will not make this case for all. Sometimes we simply have to stand as Job did, and say that though God slay me, still will I trust Him. Jesus had that attitude concerning His loving Father. Jesus trusted His Father with His life. All those who are sincere in committing their heart and life to God, and believe in His word, and stand on it in spite of their circumstances, will see His hand made strong in their lives. Many fall away when the tests come. The tests will separate the real child of God from those who only profess Him with their mouth. God has revealed Himself to me in ways that cannot be explained nor accepted by those who refuse to acknowledge Him in their lives. He has answered prayers in ways that defies the ordinary. God is still a miraculous God to those who believe in Him. Don’t expect God to reveal Himself to you or anyone else, who don’t even consider the evidence that He has already given.

Quote from GoFish: If he was the son of Gawd, then wasn't Gawd a little harsh when he sent his son down here for some punishment? What did Jesus do to deserve all that, forget to clean his room?

Concerning Jesus and the Father. The Father and the Son are one. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. There is no shadow between them, except for the role which they each play in relationship to man. No person can go to the Father, without first going to the Son.

You made reference that the Father was harsh with the Son. Jesus did nothing He didn’t have to do. He willingly paid the price for our sins on the cross. Consider these words of Jesus:

Mt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mt 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

I don’t believe that Jesus had to do what He did. As He stated, He could have called and 12,000 angels would have been immediately at His side, and ready to fight on His behalf. There would have been no power on heaven or earth that could have stopped Him from doing whatever He chose to do. The Father and Son were in complete unison in all that they did, and will continue to be throughout eternity. God loved His Son Jesus, and Jesus loved His Father. The terrible price that had to be paid for sins was truly a hard one to pay, and was not paid without a great sacrifice on the part of God. The Father did not want to see His Son suffer, and the Son surely did not want to suffer, but they mutually were willing suffer on our behalf. They each allowed love to be the deciding factor, and it was love that continued the course. God proved His love in actions and not in word only. God stuck by us when the going got tough. Men and women often give up when the least little trouble or hardship comes their way. Love is willing to sacrifice for another, and love will never fail. Jesus did what He did from a heart of love. None made Him do it.

You consider your sins as nothing but a simple tool to gain pleasure in this life. You consider God a cruel God whose demands are too hard. How many of our own children do not look at their parents in this same way? How many, if left to their own desires and plans, would find true happiness. There is no complete pleasing a child. The parents must make calls that the child doesn’t like, and that often pits the parent’s will against the child’s. Would children be happy, if they were never corrected and remained spoiled brats without learning responsibility and sacrifice? The lives of such children are such that they are never satisfied when left to be victims of their own rule. Yet how often does the sinner consider God in this light? How often is it that the sinner mocks those who allow God to rule over them as if they were missing out on all the fun. The faithful child of God has much to gain, and the rebellious sinner has much to lose in the end. If you want to know what sin is to God, then consider your sins again in light of the penalty that the Son of God paid on the sinner’s behalf. You can be delivered from the bondage and the penalty of sins by believing in God’s Son Jesus Christ, but it is your choice to make. Consider what Jesus went through so that you might receive forgiveness and be free to serve God in peace, as His child. The Father is not trying to destroy your party, He’s trying to rescue you from it, and offer you true happiness that none can ever take from you again.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I wish you all well in your lives, but not in your message. Your message may destroy many, inluding your own selves, and I hope that you will reconsider it.

My goodness! How you do go on!! Joy, introduce your sister to Guidepost. It is a great way to show people that miracles do happen and not too pushy on religion. I have my own issues on the subject but find this little magazine to be inspirational. You can also access it on the web but subscribing to the magazine lets you have much more as far as the stories go. Check it out.

Have any of you tried to read L. Ron Hubbard? I tried "Psychocybernetics" years ago. I read ALL THE TIME and don't cull much (except Harlequin stuff). I kept reading a page and thinking, "what? What did I just read?" It's a mess. I read the whole thing and couldn't figure out one point he made. I thought it was some silly combination of science fiction and pop psychology. Then he founds a church! It's like the church of the goofy people.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
GoFish, If you want to see Jesus and learn about what He is doing, you are going to have to stop turning your head and looking away from Him.

Well, what IS his address, then? "He Lives!" you know. I want his address.

quote:

Many say they know Him when they don’t follow Him. Then when tough times come they fall away and mock Him for not being there for them.

Or go abuse a child, commit murder or steal money from the pulpit. When you folks fall, you sure fall hard.

quote:

Concerning Jesus and the Father. The Father and the Son are one. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. There is no shadow between them, except for the role which they each play in relationship to man. No person can go to the Father, without first going to the Son.

Okay, read that again out loud to yourself and you tell me how to make sense of that. I gave up long ago. God sent his only begotten son but the son was himself so he actually sent himself so that means he wasn't a son, but was god himself so he lied when he said he was the son of god.

I have a headache.

quote:

The Father is not trying to destroy your party, He’s trying to rescue you from it, and offer you true happiness that none can ever take from you again.

Let's see: I make lot's of money, I'm good looking, have a beautiful wife, beautiful sons, am experiencing life and all it's pleasures and doing my dangdest to leave it in better shape for my kids. Except for enjoying my future grandkids, I've done everything in my life that I've wanted to do so I'll die happy.

To top it all off, I can cuss, enjoy a cigar, shot of tequila, a beer or ten and not feel guilty! In short, there may be many who are AS happy but no one in the world who could possibly be MORE happy than I.

Jesus wants to rescue me from that? Thanks but no thanks!

It's not "like" a church for goofy people. It IS a church for goofy people.

DF

gofish,

I would only remind you of what you already know. never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

DF

quote:

It's not "like" a church for goofy people. It IS a church for goofy people.

You're right about that. But I'm a little embarrassed that those idiots understood what he was saying and I didn't.

Who's saying they really understood it? Who's saying L. Bob Dullard understood what he was writing?

it's probably gobbledy****, from start to finish.

DF

hahahaha the censored g00k.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by Light:
My goodness! How you do go on!! Joy, introduce your sister to Guidepost. It is a great way to show people that miracles do happen and not too pushy on religion. I have my own issues on the subject but find this little magazine to be inspirational. You can also access it on the web but subscribing to the magazine lets you have much more as far as the stories go. Check it out.

Hey, I backed out of this one some time back, Light. I'm not casting my pearls before swine! HAHA! Just thought of that! I'm KIDDING already.

I enjoy discussing issues with GoFish and DeepFat, but spiritually we are on opposite ends of the universe. We just agree to disagree and move on.

Because I'm a Christian and I like you people, it saddens me that some of you don't believe and I fear for your soul. I just think that belief or non-belief cannot be forced.

what4, I am assuming that your heart is in the right place but your words are falling on deaf ears. They won't hear until they open spiritual ears to hear. At this point in their life, they done ripped out the eardrum, stomped on the hearing aid and installed an intellectual ego the size of Manhattan. hee, hee

Hey, y'all asked for that one. I mean, "tell us what he did for a living after the, you know, cross thing"? The very idea! Let's see. After defeating death and hell, he ASCENDED TO HEAVEN, but you knew that already, GoFish.

Joy wrote:

quote:

what4, I am assuming that your heart is in the right place but your words are falling on deaf ears. They won't hear until they open spiritual ears to hear. At this point in their life, they done ripped out the eardrum, stomped on the hearing aid and installed an intellectual ego the size of Manhattan. hee, hee

both gofish and I came from christianity to where we are today. For years I begged god to show himself to me, to make himself known. Nothing. No one home.

As for my intellectual ego (huh?), it is you who tells me I should believe in a man in the sky who loves me, but will send me to hell for using my human intelligence to ask for proof of his existence. It is you who tells me that your version of the sky man who needs money is correct to the exclusion of all other points of view. You understand the Prime Mover of the Universe. You can see beyond the grave. You ask me to believe that a man who was crucified to death came alive, then conveniently rose into the sky.

Why would he do that? Seems if he was making a point by being resurrected, he's strut downtown and show himself off. "Crucify this" or something. But no.

Joy, I luv ya, but before you start throwing the stone of ego, dig yourself, hon.

DF

DF, now don't be getting your feathers ruffled on me. You give me a hard time too, you know? I'm just kidding with y'all. Yes, my ego needs deflating from time to time as well, as long as it's good-naturedly.

In answer to that take on what I ask you to believe. Dude, that's not what "I" believe. Why would I ask you to?

1. God doesn't send you to Hell because you asked for proof. He made it as simple as "whosoever believes in Him shall be saved"...it doesn't get any easier than that. It's your own refusal to believe that sends you to Hell. "It's God's will that all would be saved".

2. God doesn't need your money. He owns it all anyway. It's a way for you to know Him. You can't out-give God.

3. He came, died, rose again & went back to Heaven to (among other things) pay for our sins, to be our intercessor and so that the Spirit of God could come and live in the hearts of all those who believe.

4. Jesus is a servant leader. Strut? Eww, that's not my Jesus, thank God.

I'm not trying to convince you, just answering your post. No harm, no foul.

DF, I admire you so much more now that I know you tried to reach out to God. If you found nothing, saw nothing, I don't know why because I'm not He. You are truly a person of exceptional intellect, and I believe a kind heart, but did you have anything against anyone the times you prayed? Please don't give up. Please...

Y'all:

quote:

God doesn't send you to Hell because you asked for proof.

Of course he doesn't. There is no hell, and there's very little reason to believe a god sends anyone anywhere.

QUOTE] God doesn't need your money [/QUOTE] Tell that to his collectors, the preachers.

quote:

Jesus is a servant leader

Jesus is your servant? Wow.


I didn't give up. I kept moving on. Study an objective history of god sometime. Read it with an open mind.

DF

DF, I'm sorry if I went too far in my ribbing in my post to Light. I think I have upset you. My last post was to reply to what you thought I believed.

I can't do anything about those that claim to be Christians when their lives do not reflect Christ. I don't answer for them; I'm not them. I only know what God has meant to me personally and I wouldn't trade that for anything this world has to offer me.

ah, joy, I'm ok.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
If I have learned nothing else, I’ve learned that I’m nothing and a miserable failure apart from God.

Man, you're being a little harsh on yourself, ain't ye?

Me? I'm about as happy, giving, successful, lucky, and getting more out of life than I ever dreamed without beating myself up like that. I owe all of that to one person and one person only: Me, myself and I (okay, that's three people but you get the idea).I'm glad that all that mumbo-jumbo works for you but no thanks.

I assure you that if you think you are as happy as you could be without God in your life you are wrong. There is a peace that comes from God that you are missing out on. There is an emptiness that you are trying to fill by being whatever your version of successful is. That emptiness can be filled by God. Everything good comes from God. Maybe this is His time and place to make a connection with you and show you how he can bless you beyond what you can do for yourself.

I take it you have no children. If you had ever seen a baby born into this world you would know that there is no way that could happen without divine intervention. When I look at my children growing up in this world I pray to a God that is looking after them and when my grand-parents pass I pray they go to live with a loving creator. If life is all about who has the biggest boat and immediate pleasure then thats what would be depressing to me. Isnt that an empty way to live?

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
GoFish, If you want to see Jesus and learn about what He is doing, you are going to have to stop turning your head and looking away from Him.

Well, what IS his address, then? "He Lives!" you know. I want his address.

quote:

Many say they know Him when they don’t follow Him. Then when tough times come they fall away and mock Him for not being there for them.

Or go abuse a child, commit murder or steal money from the pulpit. When you folks fall, you sure fall hard.

quote:

Concerning Jesus and the Father. The Father and the Son are one. The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father. There is no shadow between them, except for the role which they each play in relationship to man. No person can go to the Father, without first going to the Son.

Okay, read that again out loud to yourself and you tell me how to make sense of that. I gave up long ago. God sent his only begotten son but the son was himself so he actually sent himself so that means he wasn't a son, but was god himself so he lied when he said he was the son of god.

I have a headache.

quote:

The Father is not trying to destroy your party, He’s trying to rescue you from it, and offer you true happiness that none can ever take from you again.

Let's see: I make lot's of money, I'm good looking, have a beautiful wife, beautiful sons, am experiencing life and all it's pleasures and doing my dangdest to leave it in better shape for my kids. Except for enjoying my future grandkids, I've done everything in my life that I've wanted to do so I'll die happy.

To top it all off, I can cuss, enjoy a cigar, shot of tequila, a beer or ten and not feel guilty! In short, there may be many who are AS happy but no one in the world who could possibly be MORE happy than I.

Jesus wants to rescue me from that? Thanks but no thanks!

OK. lets examine this. I make lots of money also. But do you do good with your money? Does it make you happy honestly to buy more and more and more STUFF. I have a nice house and car, kids have clothes and medical etc. But you want to know what makes the kids happiest at Christmas? The angel tree. That is a memory they tell me at 10 and 7 that they love and they WANT to do. That is a satisfaction that comes from doing for others as God would want. I assume it is not an altruistic good but makes us all happy just the same.

I am attractive but what does that do? That doesnt make people Happy. I mean look at some of the celebrity lives and such beautiful people live in such pain and sadness. Does beauty undo any of lifes pain like a memory of a molested child or a abused woman. No. only God and his love can heal that.

I have two gorgeous children 10 and 7 girl and a boy.......honor roll students - son is very athletic. But without God that isnt possible. The things taught to us in the Bible are things that WILL make us happy if we follow them. Bringing your child up beleiving in the Bible only makes them better people. If my children grow up beleiving that all there is in this world is what is here... worldly pleasure.....just to go out and seize the day with no thought for what God has in plan for them, then they will miss out on His blessings and I do not want that. When I am not around and my daughter has to make a decision for herself or she is in pain I want her to have God to turn to to make those decisions and I KNOW she will be a happier, healthier person for it.

What am I "missing out on"???? Well, saying I can cuss is really not an accomplishment. I mean I do cuss from time to time we are all human but is that really something you want to do. I mean any idiot can cuss..and i am not saying you are an idiot but - so what. I think it is more appealing to speak intelligently with a man or woman who can make a point, carry on a conversation and have fun without cussing. I am guilty of it too but I know that I look trashy when I come out with some big word........and do not do it in front of the kids. I never heard my mother cuss growing up and I have nothing but respect for her being able to have so much CLASS and self control. Again something I struggle with.

As far as drinking........well, that is a personal issue that is between each person, different religion and God. I know different religions feel differently about drinking. BUT, if the Bible tells us not to get drunk look at the reasons why. Is there ANYONE on this forum or in this world that can say they have not made a bad desision while drunk? No of course not. Now, to different degrees. Some decisions will last one day but some will last a lifetime. If you got drunk and slept with ole Suzy one night maybe nothing happened to you but if your son drinks and learned its OK from his father then maybe his might not turn out so well, maybe you causing that child to stumble by your example, leads to an unwanted pregnancy, DUI, HIV, or death. God loves us as we do our children and he only wants whats best for us. We tell our children not to play in the street and they get mad and say well so and so is doing it and I havent saw any cars coming and dont understand why. But We have lived and experienced and want whats best so thats why we make the rules. God has done the same. He is the beginning and the end. He knows what is best for us and can see the end. He wants to make life less painful and he wants us to be happy on this earth and beyond................

The point to all of this is ..............this life is short. Its just a blink of an eye. Eternity is just that.........Eternity..........I would hate to carry the burden on my heart with me for ever and ever that because I didnt bring my children up believing in God that I could have prevented any of their pain or caused them not be in his favor. Just think about this. If you live as if there is a God then in the end just for agruement sake there was not a Heaven or Hell then what have you really missed out on...........nothing important.

quote:

Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
Just think about this. If you live as if there is a God then in the end just for agruement sake there was not a Heaven or Hell then what have you really missed out on...........nothing important.

My point was not to extol my good looks, material worth and ability to cuss and drink with applomb. My point is that I lead a very "blessed" life and have achieved true happiness through hard work, intelligent (and some stupid) choices and moral values - not because of some man who lives in the clouds.

I am teaching my kids that almost everything in life is good in moderation. I don't cuss unnecessarily, I drink a beer or two a day and my kids have never, ever seem me drunk. I display mad affection for my wife and lead by example and adhere to a very strict moral code.

Again, with no help from a spook in the sky or the threat of eternal burning.

And I have wasted almost not time hanging out with insurance salesmen worshiping in a multi-million dollar mansions built by white guys looking to climb the religious/political ladder to reach material success - all in the name of some god who is a figment of the imagination.

And if a Creator does exist? That's cool. I look forward to meeting him.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
Just think about this. If you live as if there is a God then in the end just for agruement sake there was not a Heaven or Hell then what have you really missed out on...........nothing important.

My point was not to extol my good looks, material worth and ability to cuss and drink with applomb. My point is that I lead a very "blessed" life and have achieved true happiness through hard work, intelligent (and some stupid) choices and moral values - not because of some man who lives in the clouds.

I am teaching my kids that almost everything in life is good in moderation. I don't cuss unnecessarily, I drink a beer or two a day and my kids have never, ever seem me drunk. I display mad affection for my wife and lead by example and adhere to a very strict moral code.

Again, with no help from a spook in the sky or the threat of eternal burning.

And I have wasted almost not time hanging out with insurance salesmen worshiping in a multi-million dollar mansions built by white guys looking to climb the religious/political ladder to reach material success - all in the name of some god who is a figment of the imagination.

And if a Creator does exist? That's cool. I look forward to meeting him.

I appreciate your honesty and open discussion. Even though we dont agree I think that you are living a good life because you have a deep desire to want peace and goodness. I think - just in my opinion now - but i think you may just read, hear or learn something one day that changes your mind. You are not an evil person, maybe you have just had a bad experience. Cross Point Church is so laid back, no pressure for giving.....that is between you and God. The preachers house is prob smaller than mine and different races come together because they care about each other and want to show graditude. It just sounds like from your posts you have walked in the wrong BUILDING to worship and never found a church FAMILY. Its very easy to get put off by that and thats why the devil is seen everywhere.....even in a church BUILDING. Faith that there is a God comes from studying the Bible and witnessing the miricales that happen in TRUE beleivers lives. I know that I work VERY hard to provide for my family. But my health and childrens health that allows me to go to work is a gift. I want to show graditude because I could not do it on my own without Him blessing me everyday. Thank you for allowing me to address this with you. Dont stop questioning............

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bluesman (& all), my sister has been and is asking those questions right now (lost her huband last November) and it's killing me. I don't know how to reach her. She accepted Christ as a child but because of our upbringing turned away from God. She has sought medical and psychological help in all forms, which kept her from killing herself, but she is so depressed and has made so many reckless decisions. I am scared for her and her three children (ages 16, 13, & 5).

How do you help someone see that where doctors and medicine fail, God is able? She was ticked off at God, which is understandable, but now she says she is too tired to be mad at anybody, including God. I've told her my experiences of God pulling me from the pit, but I feel the wall go up if I say anything about God.

It is frustrating and heart-breaking when you know the road to peace and healing but you cannot show someone that you love the power that is right there.

I know where God is when it hurts...
He hurts when I hurt, just like any good parent would.
He holds me up when I'm too weak to go on.
He rocks me to sleep when none will come.
He places joy and peace in my heart amidst sorrow.
He healed my pain and my scars and filled up the gaps in my soul with his Spirit to make me whole. Thank you, Lord.
He listens as I pour out my heart and gives me more in return than I could ever ask or imagine.
And one day, He will wipe away every tear and there will be no more pain, no more innocent lives ripped apart by war or famine or crime. Come, Lord Jesus.

Joy--- I understand how your sister feels. I lost my husband in 2004. I to, was very mad at god.

But I found without god I really did feel empty so I prayed all the time for god to give me the strenght to make it through this and I did.

Give her time she to will find her way back to god. Just be there for her and pray for her.

God will be there for you, when no one else is.

quote:

If you had ever seen a baby born into this world you would know that there is no way that could happen without divine intervention.

Please. We know how children come about. All species have children, from amoebas to us. they are not miracles.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:

If you had ever seen a baby born into this world you would know that there is no way that could happen without divine intervention.

Please. We know how children come about. All species have children, from amoebas to us. they are not miracles.

DF

I pray you dont have children

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS PEOPLE CAN QUESTION GOD AND HIS TEACHING BECAUSE THEY SAY THAT THERE IS NO PROOF. LOOK AT IT THIS WAY , THERE IS NO OTHER CASE OTHER THAN GOD CREATED HEAVEN AND EARTH AND MAN. I HAVEN'T HEARD ANYTHING ELSE BUT THAT ,WE DIDN'T COME FROM ANOTHER PLANET, AND YES WE HAVE EVOLVED BUT NOT FROM MONKEYS (CASE BEING WE ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME BUILD OR HAVE THE SAME FEATURES AS OUR ANCESTORS SO WE EVOLVE ALL THE TIME. IF WE DID COME FROM MONKEYS WHY DID IT STOP?) GIVE ME ONE CASE WHERE IT STATES MAN EVOLVED FROM . ANYTHING ??? AND IF SO WHEN DID THAT CREATURE FIRST STEP FOOT HERE WHERE DID THEY COME FROM. IT IS VERY SIMPLE THERE IS A GOD IN HEAVEN AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THAN THAT'S YOU BUT GIVE ME SOME REASON WHY YOU DON'T BELIEVE BESIDE SOME CHURCH YOU GOT A BAD EXPERIENCE FROM.

P.S SORRY FOR THE CAPS STARTED TYPING DIDN'T WANT TO START OVER.

quote:

Originally posted by something2say:
WE DIDN'T COME FROM ANOTHER PLANET, AND YES WE HAVE EVOLVED BUT NOT FROM MONKEYS (CASE BEING WE ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME BUILD OR HAVE THE SAME FEATURES AS OUR ANCESTORS SO WE EVOLVE ALL THE TIME. IF WE DID COME FROM MONKEYS WHY DID IT STOP?) GIVE ME ONE CASE WHERE IT STATES MAN EVOLVED FROM . ANYTHING ??? AND IF SO WHEN DID THAT CREATURE FIRST STEP FOOT HERE WHERE DID THEY COME FROM.

You are a good example of why the United States lags behind other countries in math and science.

We didn't evolve from monkeys. No one but religious fundies say that. Evolution simply states that humans and apes (monkeys) have a common ancestor and has abundant proof of that.

Almost all animals have the "same features." Haven't you wondered why all animals, even fish, have two eyes, a nose, a tongue, a rectum, sexual organs all in about the same place? Science explains that this is because - if you go back far enough - we all share a common ancestor. Yep, you and your dog are cousins.

Why did it stop? Evolution has never "stopped" is just happens at such a slow pace that you don't notice it. Written human history goes back about 5000 years. About the only change we have noted is that humans have gotten a couple of inches taller since that time. That is called evolution. Now imagine a few tens-of-thousands of years and you'll get an idea of how very small changes end up as noticeable differences given enough time.

The rest of your tirade is so very ignorant that I can't really address it. Evolution includes some very simple concepts are taught in the 6th grade.

Your kind of utter ignorance of the world around you is one very big reason I became an atheist. There was no "Adam and Eve." There was no worldwide flood (along with a re-introduction of humans to planet earth). If those events are not true, then the whole bible collapses. If the bible collapses, so does Christianity. Thus, I am not (nor will I ever be) a Christian.

Science is humanity's salvation (science is actually working on "eternal life" as we speak!). Not some silly book full if fables.

There is a difference between religion and Christianity...I believe that.
A friend told me once that there are going to be a lot of drunks in heaven and a lot of preachers in hell...I believe that, too.

Christianity is a religion. It is not a bowling club nor a baseball team.

Christianity has it's gods, prophets, laws, holy texts, clergy, churches, and all the stuff religions have.

Can't say I blame you for wanting to distance yourself from the institution of religion, but if you're a christian, you're religious.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by ~*~Freebird~*~:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Bluesman (& all), my sister has been and is asking those questions right now (lost her huband last November) and it's killing me. I don't know how to reach her. She accepted Christ as a child but because of our upbringing turned away from God. She has sought medical and psychological help in all forms, which kept her from killing herself, but she is so depressed and has made so many reckless decisions. I am scared for her and her three children (ages 16, 13, & 5).

How do you help someone see that where doctors and medicine fail, God is able? She was ticked off at God, which is understandable, but now she says she is too tired to be mad at anybody, including God. I've told her my experiences of God pulling me from the pit, but I feel the wall go up if I say anything about God.

It is frustrating and heart-breaking when you know the road to peace and healing but you cannot show someone that you love the power that is right there.

I know where God is when it hurts...
He hurts when I hurt, just like any good parent would.
He holds me up when I'm too weak to go on.
He rocks me to sleep when none will come.
He places joy and peace in my heart amidst sorrow.
He healed my pain and my scars and filled up the gaps in my soul with his Spirit to make me whole. Thank you, Lord.
He listens as I pour out my heart and gives me more in return than I could ever ask or imagine.
And one day, He will wipe away every tear and there will be no more pain, no more innocent lives ripped apart by war or famine or crime. Come, Lord Jesus.

Joy--- I understand how your sister feels. I lost my husband in 2004. I to, was very mad at god.

But I found without god I really did feel empty so I prayed all the time for god to give me the strenghth to make it through this and I did.

Give her time she to will find her way back to god. Just be there for her and pray for her.

God will be there for you, when no one else is.

Thank you, Freebird. I will do that. You know, this forum is just really awesome sometimes.

Can you handle the thought that sometimes there is nobody there for you?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by something2say:
WE DIDN'T COME FROM ANOTHER PLANET, AND YES WE HAVE EVOLVED BUT NOT FROM MONKEYS (CASE BEING WE ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME BUILD OR HAVE THE SAME FEATURES AS OUR ANCESTORS SO WE EVOLVE ALL THE TIME. IF WE DID COME FROM MONKEYS WHY DID IT STOP?) GIVE ME ONE CASE WHERE IT STATES MAN EVOLVED FROM . ANYTHING ??? AND IF SO WHEN DID THAT CREATURE FIRST STEP FOOT HERE WHERE DID THEY COME FROM.

You are a good example of why the United States lags behind other countries in math and science.

We didn't evolve from monkeys. No one but religious fundies say that. Evolution simply states that humans and apes (monkeys) have a common ancestor and has abundant proof of that.

Almost all animals have the "same features." Haven't you wondered why all animals, even fish, have two eyes, a nose, a tongue, a rectum, sexual organs all in about the same place? Science explains that this is because - if you go back far enough - we all share a common ancestor. Yep, you and your dog are cousins.

Why did it stop? Evolution has never "stopped" is just happens at such a slow pace that you don't notice it. Written human history goes back about 5000 years. About the only change we have noted is that humans have gotten a couple of inches taller since that time. That is called evolution. Now imagine a few tens-of-thousands of years and you'll get an idea of how very small changes end up as noticeable differences given enough time.

The rest of your tirade is so very ignorant that I can't really address it. Evolution includes some very simple concepts are taught in the 6th grade.

Your kind of utter ignorance of the world around you is one very big reason I became an atheist. There was no "Adam and Eve." There was no worldwide flood (along with a re-introduction of humans to planet earth). If those events are not true, then the whole bible collapses. If the bible collapses, so does Christianity. Thus, I am not (nor will I ever be) a Christian.

Science is humanity's salvation (science is actually working on "eternal life" as we speak!). Not some silly book full if fables.

Okay GF, here we go again. Answer me this. If we are all products of "evolution", then how did the universe begin? Where did it come from? There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing. If there was nothing in the universe to begin with, then common sense and science and math skills say that nothing could happen to cause anything to appear. Please enlighten me on this.

quote:

Originally posted by something2say:
WE DIDN'T COME FROM ANOTHER PLANET, AND YES WE HAVE EVOLVED BUT NOT FROM MONKEYS (CASE BEING WE ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME BUILD OR HAVE THE SAME FEATURES AS OUR ANCESTORS SO WE EVOLVE ALL THE TIME. IF WE DID COME FROM MONKEYS WHY DID IT STOP?) GIVE ME ONE CASE WHERE IT STATES MAN EVOLVED FROM . ANYTHING ??? AND IF SO WHEN DID THAT CREATURE FIRST STEP FOOT HERE WHERE DID THEY COME FROM.


You are a good example of why the United States lags behind other countries in math and science.

We didn't evolve from monkeys. No one but religious fundies say that. Evolution simply states that humans and apes (monkeys) have a common ancestor and has abundant proof of that.

Almost all animals have the "same features." Haven't you wondered why all animals, even fish, have two eyes, a nose, a tongue, a rectum, sexual organs all in about the same place? Science explains that this is because - if you go back far enough - we all share a common ancestor. Yep, you and your dog are cousins.

Why did it stop? Evolution has never "stopped" is just happens at such a slow pace that you don't notice it. Written human history goes back about 5000 years. About the only change we have noted is that humans have gotten a couple of inches taller since that time. That is called evolution. Now imagine a few tens-of-thousands of years and you'll get an idea of how very small changes end up as noticeable differences given enough time.

The rest of your tirade is so very ignorant that I can't really address it. Evolution includes some very simple concepts are taught in the 6th grade.

Your kind of utter ignorance of the world around you is one very big reason I became an atheist. There was no "Adam and Eve." There was no worldwide flood (along with a re-introduction of humans to planet earth). If those events are not true, then the whole bible collapses. If the bible collapses, so does Christianity. Thus, I am not (nor will I ever be) a Christian.

Science is humanity's salvation (science is actually working on "eternal life" as we speak!). Not some silly book full if fables.

quote:

Posted 26 July 2007 01:51 AM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:
Originally posted by something2say:
WE DIDN'T COME FROM ANOTHER PLANET, AND YES WE HAVE EVOLVED BUT NOT FROM MONKEYS (CASE BEING WE ARE NOT EVEN THE SAME BUILD OR HAVE THE SAME FEATURES AS OUR ANCESTORS SO WE EVOLVE ALL THE TIME. IF WE DID COME FROM MONKEYS WHY DID IT STOP?) GIVE ME ONE CASE WHERE IT STATES MAN EVOLVED FROM . ANYTHING ??? AND IF SO WHEN DID THAT CREATURE FIRST STEP FOOT HERE WHERE DID THEY COME FROM.


You are a good example of why the United States lags behind other countries in math and science.

We didn't evolve from monkeys. No one but religious fundies say that. Evolution simply states that humans and apes (monkeys) have a common ancestor and has abundant proof of that.

Almost all animals have the "same features." Haven't you wondered why all animals, even fish, have two eyes, a nose, a tongue, a rectum, sexual organs all in about the same place? Science explains that this is because - if you go back far enough - we all share a common ancestor. Yep, you and your dog are cousins.

Why did it stop? Evolution has never "stopped" is just happens at such a slow pace that you don't notice it. Written human history goes back about 5000 years. About the only change we have noted is that humans have gotten a couple of inches taller since that time. That is called evolution. Now imagine a few tens-of-thousands of years and you'll get an idea of how very small changes end up as noticeable differences given enough time.

The rest of your tirade is so very ignorant that I can't really address it. Evolution includes some very simple concepts are taught in the 6th grade.

Your kind of utter ignorance of the world around you is one very big reason I became an atheist. There was no "Adam and Eve." There was no worldwide flood (along with a re-introduction of humans to planet earth). If those events are not true, then the whole bible collapses. If the bible collapses, so does Christianity. Thus, I am not (nor will I ever be) a Christian.

Science is humanity's salvation (science is actually working on "eternal life" as we speak!). Not some silly book full if fables.


Okay GF, here we go again. Answer me this. If we are all products of "evolution", then how did the universe begin? Where did it come from? There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing. If there was nothing in the universe to begin with, then common sense and science and math skills say that nothing could happen to cause anything to appear. Please enlighten me on this.

Eventus Stultorum Magister

GF THATS THE SAME QUESTION I ASK I DIDN'T QOUTE ANYTHING JUST ASKED YOU QUESTION AND YES I MAYBE RELATED TO MY DOG BUT YOU RELATED TO MY ***HOLE.

GoFish addressed several issues in his response to faith in the Bible. I will, here, address only one of them--the flood. I do not have time to look up citations; however, rest assured I will and post them later. Almost all science has encountered the "worldwide flood." In fact, those who don't believe the Bible say whoever wrote the "fables" in Genesis based many of them on actual events. For what it's worth, those same athiests claim the 12 tribes of Israel were based on the Babylonian pseudoscience of astrology.

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
Okay GF, here we go again. Answer me this. If we are all products of "evolution", then how did the universe begin? [QUOTE]

There are lot's of theories and no one claims to have THE answer. Theories on multiverses, brane theory, string theory and a unified theory are all vying for THE explanation but no one theory has overiddent he other thus far.

The absolutest fact is that everything we can see in the universe is expanding at enormous speeds. Simply reverse that process and you end up with everything being condensed into one point at sometime int he past.

Given this absolute evidence, what would YOU say happened?

[QUOTE] There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing.

You are, of course, referring to the supposed Second Law of Thermdynamics that purportedly prevents evolution from happening. I'm not going to bother to explain why that is stupid. If you really want to know, start here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html

quote:

Where did it come from?

Again, there are many theories that attempt to explain what happened before the universe began but none can be said to have wide acceptance.

I invite you to read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking if you are truly interested. If not, keep your nose in your book of fables and remain ignorant.

quote:

If there was nothing in the universe to begin with,

Who says there was "nothing" before the universe began? There are plenty of theories that suggest that there may have been an infinite number of universes that have expanded and collapsed eternally.

There is a very valid theory that states that our universe is only one of an infinite number.

To me, those kinds of thoughts are so much more "spiritual" and humbling than any book of fables ever will be.

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
Almost all science has encountered the "worldwide flood." In fact, those who don't believe the Bible say whoever wrote the "fables" in Genesis based many of them on actual events.

Utter hogwash. I challenge you to find one credible scientific theory supporting a single, worldwide flood that happened 3000 to 5000 years ago.

Come ON people! Do you REALLY, DEEP DOWN believe that every single animal on the planet including every species of dinosaur, mammoth, elephant, ant, flea and rodent all lived on a single boat for 40 days and nights? Seriously, folks, clinging to such ignorant notions is sooo 12th century and is so frustratingly stupid that my eyes are shooting blood!

quote:

GF THATS THE SAME QUESTION I ASK I DIDN'T QOUTE ANYTHING JUST ASKED YOU QUESTION AND YES I MAYBE RELATED TO MY DOG BUT YOU RELATED TO MY ***HOLE.

I am so very embarrassed for this poor, clueless, vacuum of intellect and all who must be associated with him.

DF

STOI wrote:

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:
If you had ever seen a baby born into this world you would know that there is no way that could happen without divine intervention.


Please. We know how children come about. All species have children, from amoebas to us. they are not miracles.

DF


I pray you dont have children

Mon ami, miracles are things that should not happen. Things that are impossible or so higly improbable that they cannot be believed without being seen.

Babies are born millions of times a day. We even understand how. Man and woman meet. Chromosomes mix--BAM! Zygote! Embryo, fetus, ice cream with pickles, childbirth. You might really dig the baby, but he's no miracle.

A miracle would be if a goat gave birth to a human baby, at least without scientific help. A miracle would be someone's missing limb regenerating. A miracle would be me, with a fist full of $100 bills, getting lucky in a House of Ill Repute. But childbirth? No, afraid not.

If you define miracles so liberally, then use miracles as evidence of your faith, your faith is in grave danger.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
Almost all science has encountered the "worldwide flood." In fact, those who don't believe the Bible say whoever wrote the "fables" in Genesis based many of them on actual events.

Utter hogwash. I challenge you to find one credible scientific theory supporting a single, worldwide flood that happened 3000 to 5000 years ago.

Come ON people! Do you REALLY, DEEP DOWN believe that every single animal on the planet including every species of dinosaur, mammoth, elephant, ant, flea and rodent all lived on a single boat for 40 days and nights? Seriously, folks, clinging to such ignorant notions is sooo 12th century and is so frustratingly stupid that my eyes are shooting blood!

Many skeptics assert that the Bible must be wrong, because they claim that the Ark could not possibly have carried all the different types of animals. This has persuaded some Christians to deny the Genesis Flood, or believe that it was only a local flood involving comparatively few local animals. But they usually have not actually performed the calculations. On the other hand, the classic creationist book The Genesis Flood contained a detailed analysis as far back as 1961.1 A more detailed and updated technical study of this and many other questions is John Woodmorappe’s book Noah’s Ark: a Feasibility Study. This article is based on material in these books plus some independent calculations. There are two questions to ask:

How many types of animals did Noah need to take?
Was the ark large enough to hold all the required animals?
How many types of animals did Noah need to take?
The relevant passages are Genesis 6:19–20 and Genesis 7:2–3.

Genesis 6:19–20:
‘And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.’

Genesis 7:2–3:
‘Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.’

In the original Hebrew, the word for ‘beast’ and ‘cattle’ in these passages is the same: behemah, and it refers to land vertebrate animals in general. The word for ‘creeping things’ is remes, which has a number of different meanings in Scripture, but here it probably refers to reptiles.2 Noah did not need to take sea creatures3 because they would not necessarily be threatened with extinction by a flood. However, turbulent water would cause massive carnage, as seen in the fossil record, and many oceanic species probably did become extinct because of the Flood.

However, if God in His wisdom had decided not to preserve some ocean creatures, this was none of Noah’s business. Noah did not need to take plants either—many could have survived as seeds, and others could have survived on floating mats of vegetation. Many insects and other invertebrates were small enough to have survived on these mats as well. The Flood wiped out all land animals which breathed through nostrils except those on the Ark (Genesis 7:22). Insects do not breathe through nostrils but through tiny tubes in their exterior skeleton.

Clean animals: Bible commentators are evenly divided about whether the Hebrew means ‘seven’ or ‘seven pairs’ of each type of clean animal. Woodmorappe takes the latter just to concede as much to the biblioskeptics as possible. But the vast majority of animals are not clean, and were represented by only two specimens each. The term ‘clean animal’ was not defined until the Mosaic Law. But since Moses was also the compiler of Genesis, if we follow the principle that ‘Scripture interprets Scripture’, the Mosaic Law definitions can be applied to the Noahic situation. There are actually very few ‘clean’ land animals listed in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.

What is a ‘kind’? God created a number of different types of animals with much capacity for variation within limits.4 The descendants of each of these different kinds, apart from humans, would today mostly be represented by a larger grouping than what is called a species. In most cases, those species descended from a particular original kind would be grouped today within what modern taxonomists (biologists who classify living things) call a genus (plural genera).

One common definition of a species is a group of organisms which can interbreed and produce fertile offspring, and cannot mate with other species. However, most of the so-called species (obviously all the extinct ones) have not been tested to see what they can or cannot mate with. In fact, not only are there known crosses between so-called species, but there are many instances of trans-generic mating, so the ‘kind’ may in some cases be as high as the family. Identifying the ‘kind’ with the genus is also consistent with Scripture, which spoke of kinds in a way that the Israelites could easily recognize without the need for tests of reproductive isolation.

For example, horses, zebras and donkeys are probably descended from an equine (horse-like) kind, since they can interbreed, although the offspring are sterile. Dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals are probably from a canine (dog-like) kind. All different types of domestic cattle (which are clean animals) are descended from the Aurochs, so there were probably at most seven (or fourteen) domestic cattle aboard. The Aurochs itself may have been descended from a cattle kind including bisons and water buffaloes. We know that tigers and lions can produce hybrids called tigons and ligers, so it is likely that they are descended from the same original kind.

Woodmorappe totals about 8000 genera, including extinct genera, thus about 16,000 individual animals which had to be aboard. With extinct genera, there is a tendency among some paleontologists to give each of their new finds a new genus name. But this is arbitrary, so the number of extinct genera is probably highly overstated. Consider the sauropods, which were the largest dinosaurs—the group of huge plant-eaters like Brachiosaurus, Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, etc. There are 87 sauropod genera commonly cited, but only 12 are ‘firmly established’ and another 12 are considered ‘fairly well established’.5

One commonly raised problem is ‘How could you fit all those huge dinosaurs on the Ark?’ First, of the 668 supposed dinosaur genera, only 106 weighed more than ten tons when fully grown. Second, as said above, the number of dinosaur genera is probably greatly exaggerated. But these numbers are granted by Woodmorappe to be generous to skeptics. Third, the Bible does not say that the animals had to be fully grown. The largest animals were probably represented by ‘teenage’ or even younger specimens. The median size of all animals on the ark would actually have been that of a small rat, according to Woodmorappe‘s up-to-date tabulations, while only about 11 % would have been much larger than a sheep.

Another problem often raised by atheists and theistic evolutionists is ‘how did disease germs survive the flood?’ This is a leading question—it presumes that germs were as specialized and infectious as they are now, so all the Ark’s inhabitants must have been infected with every disease on earth. But germs were probably more robust in the past, and have only fairly recently lost the ability to survive in different hosts or independently of a host. In fact, even now many germs can survive in insect vectors or corpses, or in the dried or frozen state, or be carried by a host without causing disease. Finally, loss of resistance to disease is consistent with the general degeneration of life since the Fall.6

Was the ark large enough to hold all the required animals?
The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep.

If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), that is 75,000 cm3 (cubic centimetres) or 4800 cubic inches, the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. Even if a million insect species had to be on board, it would not be a problem, because they require little space. If each pair was kept in cages of 10 cm (four inches) per side, or 1000 cm3, all the insect species would occupy a total volume of only 1000 m3, or another 12 cars. This would leave room for five trains of 99 cars each for food, Noah’s family and ‘range’ for the animals. However, insects are not included in the meaning of behemah or remes in Genesis 6:19-20, so Noah probably would not have taken them on board as passengers anyway.

Tabulating the total volume is fair enough, since this shows that there would be plenty of room on the Ark for the animals with plenty left over for food, range etc. It would be possible to stack cages, with food on top or nearby (to minimize the amount of food carrying the humans had to do), to fill up more of the Ark space, while still allowing plenty of room for gaps for air circulation. We are discussing an emergency situation, not necessarily luxury accommodation. Although there is plenty of room for exercise, skeptics have overstated animals’ needs for exercise anyway.

Even if we don’t allow stacking one cage on top of another to save floor space, there would be no problem. Woodmorappe shows from standard recommended floor space requirements for animals that all of them together would have needed less than half the available floor space of the Ark’s three decks. This arrangement allows for the maximum amount of food and water storage on top of the cages close to the animals.

Food requirements
The Ark would probably have carried compressed and dried foodstuffs, and probably a lot of concentrated food. Perhaps Noah fed the cattle mainly on grain, plus some hay for fibre. Woodmorappe calculated that the volume of foodstuffs would have been only about 15 % of the Ark’s total volume. Drinking water would only have taken up 9.4 % of the volume. This volume would be reduced further if rainwater was collected and piped into troughs.

Excretory requirements
It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning. Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (plenty of water around!) or destroyed by vermicomposting (composting by worms) which would also provide earthworms as a food source. Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change. Absorbent material (e.g. sawdust, softwood wood shavings and especially peat moss) would reduce the moisture content and hence the odour.

Hibernation
The space, feeding and excretory requirements were adequate even if the animals had normal day/night sleeping cycles. But hibernation is a possibility which would reduce these requirements even more. It is true that the Bible does not mention it, but it does not rule it out either. Some creationists suggest that God created the hibernation instinct for the animals on the Ark, but we should not be dogmatic either way.

Some skeptics argue that food taken on board rules out hibernation, but this is not so. Hibernating animals do not sleep all winter, despite popular portrayals, so they would still need food occasionally.

Conclusion
This article has shown that the Bible can be trusted on testable matters like Noah’s Ark. Many Christians believe that the Bible can only be trusted on matters of faith and morals, not scientific matters. But we should consider what Jesus Christ Himself told Nicodemus (John 3:12): ‘If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?’

Similarly, if the Scriptures can be wrong on testable matters such as geography, history and science, why should they be trusted on matters like the nature of God and life after death, which are not open to empirical testing? Hence Christians should ‘be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you’ (1 Peter 3:15), when skeptics claim that the Bible conflicts with known ‘scientific facts’.

Christians would be able to follow this command and answer skeptics’ anti–Ark arguments effectively, if they read John Woodmorappe’s book Noah’s Ark: a Feasibility Study. This remarkable book is the most complete analysis ever published regarding the gathering of animals to the Ark, provisions for their care and feeding, and the subsequent dispersion. For example, some skeptics have claimed that the post-Flood ground would be too salty for plants to grow. Woodmorappe points out that salt can be readily leached out by rainwater.

Woodmorappe has devoted seven years to this scholarly, systematic answer to virtually all the anti–Ark arguments, alleged difficulties with the Biblical account, and other relevant questions. Nothing else like this has ever been written before—a powerful vindication of the Genesis Ark account.

‘It has just the sort of facts and details that kids find fascinating, and would make an excellent source of information for enhancing Bible study projects and class lessons on the Ark and Flood. Anyone interested in answering the many questions about the ark, especially from skeptics, would be advised to read Noah’s Ark.

No scientific law can account for non-living things’ coming to life. The non-living soil in your garden didn't turn into living trees and flowers. They came from seeds, cuttings, or grafts from other living trees and flowers.

Atheistic evolutionists have long believed that at some time in the distant past, life arose from non-living substances. British biologist T.H. Huxley in 1869 and physicist John Tyndall in 1874 were early promoters of the idea that life could be generated from inorganic chemicals.

But biology has found no law to support this idea, and much against it. The invariable observation is that only living things give rise to other living things. Life could not begin if God and miracles took no part!

There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind. Insects don't evolve into more complex non-insects for instance, because they don't have the genes to do it.

To show that all life evolved from a single cell, which itself came from some type of chemical soup, there would have had to be massive genetic information gains.

But evolutionists have failed to show how this gain of new information occurred. Where did the information come from for the first bristles, stomaches, spines, intestines, complex blood circulation systems, intricate mouthpieces to strain special foods out of the water, and so on, when these are not found in the ancestral species?

The theory of evolution teaches that simple life-forms evolved into more complex life-forms, such as fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. There is no natural law known that could allow this to happen. The best that evolutionists can come up with to try to explain how this might have happened is to propose that it happened by mutations and natural selection.

But mutations and natural selection do not show gain in information, just rearrangement or loss of what is already there — therefore there may be beneficial mutations without an increase in genetic information.

Mutations overwhelmingly destroy genetic information and produce creatures more handicapped than the parents. And natural selection simply weeds out unfit creatures. Natural selection may explain why light-colored moths in England decreased and dark moths proliferated (because during the industrial revolution the light moths on dark tree trunks were more easily seen and eaten by birds), but it cannot show that moths could ever turn into effective, totally different, non-moth creatures. Moths do not have the genetic information to evolve into something that is not a moth, no matter how much time you give them.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
Almost all science has encountered the "worldwide flood." In fact, those who don't believe the Bible say whoever wrote the "fables" in Genesis based many of them on actual events.

Utter hogwash. I challenge you to find one credible scientific theory supporting a single, worldwide flood that happened 3000 to 5000 years ago.

Come ON people! Do you REALLY, DEEP DOWN believe that every single animal on the planet including every species of dinosaur, mammoth, elephant, ant, flea and rodent all lived on a single boat for 40 days and nights? Seriously, folks, clinging to such ignorant notions is sooo 12th century and is so frustratingly stupid that my eyes are shooting blood!

Sometimes the mortal brain cannot comprehend how, with God, ALL things are possible! Even those beyond our wildest human imaginations...

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind.

There is no known "scientific law" that addresses this at all so OF COURSE there is no law that would "allow" it, either.

Fortunately for you and me and every other living creature, physics and genetics do allow it so that no laws are broken. I refer you to your own existence as proof of theory.

That said, all you Creationists are the same. You get your same old, outdated, disproved, utterly ignorant information from those "Answers in Genesis" idiots. Every single tidbit of "knowledge" from these people has been so outrageously disproved that they are seen as complete imbeciles by everyone except you and their followers.

You obviously received your "knowledge" by plagerism. Not fair and quite tacky.

Yes, it appears that you plagiarized every single paragraph of your last three posts. This latest one appears to come form:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/evoluwrong.html which is simply a regurgitation of the same Answers in Genesis crap.

Evolution gave you a powerful brain that allows you to think for yourself instead of claiming others thoughts as your own. You don't have to use it but you look really stupid when you don't.

quote:

Originally posted by Peace Brother:
Sometimes the mortal brain cannot comprehend how, with God, ALL things are possible! Even those beyond our wildest human imaginations...

Oh, the human mind is quite capable or comprehending just about anything. For example, I can quite easily compute that there is not enough water on this earth to cover the entire surface of the earth. I can, quite easily, compute that no wooden boat could possibly be engineered (wood is not strong enough for the spans required) to hold two of every single plant (every single tree, flower, grass and other non-animal had to ride along, too, you know) and animal that has ever existed on this planet.

I am quite capable to ascertaining that Noah's Arc was but one of so very many similar "flood" stories that have come in and out of fashion through the ages. You DO know that Zeus sent a flood to destroy the men of the Bronze Age. don't you?

Therefore, I am quite cable of comprehending that the story of Noah is, at best, based on some local catastrophe and, more likely, a fable not meant to be taken literally.

You are capable of these amazing feats of logic, too! But you first have to embrace science as your savior instead of some mythical omnipotent space alien.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind.

There is no known "scientific law" that addresses this at all so OF COURSE there is no law that would "allow" it, either.

Fortunately for you and me and every other living creature, physics and genetics do allow it so that no laws are broken. I refer you to your own existence as proof of theory.

That said, all you Creationists are the same. You get your same old, outdated, disproved, utterly ignorant information from those "Answers in Genesis" idiots. Every single tidbit of "knowledge" from these people has been so outrageously disproved that they are seen as complete imbeciles by everyone except you and their followers.

You obviously received your "knowledge" by plagerism. Not fair and quite tacky.

Yes, it appears that you plagiarized every single paragraph of your last three posts. This latest one appears to come form:
http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/evoluwrong.html which is simply a regurgitation of the same Answers in Genesis crap.

Evolution gave you a powerful brain that allows you to think for yourself instead of claiming others thoughts as your own. You don't have to use it but you look really stupid when you don't.

So what is the difference in me bringing to this forum information from a source I have than you sending me to a link for info you have? If you remember, you didn't want to explain it so you were going to send me to the link you had.

OJ, there's so much wrong with your post about the Ark's capacity, it's hard to know where to begin.

A wooden ship of those dimensions (assuming 5000 year old technology could build one, a dubious assumption) contains a lot of wood; it's not terribly hollow. Your capacity calcs are not quite right.

Neither are your estimates of the number of species. See:
http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/endan...ecies/mg13117862.300

But what strikes me as most astonishing is your insistence on believing in what is most certainly a fairy tale. You know very well an old man and his family did not ride out a worldwide flood for 40 days with all species aboard. It's not nearly as believable as, say, Hansel and Gretl or Santa Claus.

The logical and scientific evidence I can present means nothing to you, because you won't see it. So, believe as you wish, it's within your rights. Do us a favor, and don't teach children that ark nonsense as literal? That's child abuse.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
So what is the difference in me bringing to this forum information from a source I have than you sending me to a link for info you have?

Good point.

However, my link was to one of may possibilities that MIGHT one day answer your question of "What happened before the big bang?" I didn't claim to have the only answer. It was just one answer of many possibilities.

You sent me to a link that had ALL the answers and if I didn't agree, I would burn in hell for eternity.

Can you see the difference?

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
Do us a favor, and don't teach children that ark nonsense as literal? That's child abuse.
DF

I've never really looked at it that way, DF, but you are absolutely right.

Thanks for the new ammo.

Oh, and what do you have to say about your obvious plagiarism, OSJ?

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
STOI wrote:

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:
If you had ever seen a baby born into this world you would know that there is no way that could happen without divine intervention.


Please. We know how children come about. All species have children, from amoebas to us. they are not miracles.

DF


I pray you dont have children

Mon ami, miracles are things that should not happen. Things that are impossible or so higly improbable that they cannot be believed without being seen.

Babies are born millions of times a day. We even understand how. Man and woman meet. Chromosomes mix--BAM! Zygote! Embryo, fetus, ice cream with pickles, childbirth. You might really dig the baby, but he's no miracle.

A miracle would be if a goat gave birth to a human baby, at least without scientific help. A miracle would be someone's missing limb regenerating. A miracle would be me, with a fist full of $100 bills, getting lucky in a House of Ill Repute. But childbirth? No, afraid not.

If you define miracles so liberally, then use miracles as evidence of your faith, your faith is in grave danger.

DF

I will end this now with no ill feelings. You have done nothing by your comments but make my faith stronger. I have faith in God and I know that your comments are merely the devils attempt to weaken my faith. But the beautiful thing about beleiving in God is that you can see through all of it. I can see you are a person that will live life not knowing and eventually God will open your eyes. I can do nothing but try to convince you to study the Bible and see what you are missing. I assure you that the life in all forms is a miracle and would not be possible without Him.

/QUOTE/ A mirac A miracle would be me, with a fist full of $100 bills, getting lucky in a House of Ill Repute./QUOTE DeepFat

I am not even going to comment on this. LOL If you are so disgusting that you cant get some in a "House of Ill Repute. I cant help you. Sounds like you are worse off than I thought

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

—2 Corinthians 5:10

Hebrews 9:27
27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

—Hebrews 9:27
Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

—Revelation 20:12-15

quote:

Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
I will end this now with no ill feelings. You have done nothing by your comments but make my faith stronger.

I don't think DF was trying to get you to lose your faith (and I KNOW I'm not). And I assure you I am not employed by Satan.

What I am trying to do is demonstrate how utterly ridiculous it is to take the bible literally. I am trying to get the point across that science and religion simply do not mix. When you try to mix them, religious people appear as primitives who cower in caves at the sound of thunder from the Gods.

omg,

I am just SO lmao. Imagine me, your humble DF, a minion of Beelzebub. Never met him, don't believe he exists.

Sorry if I flamed you out of the sky, OJ, but whenever you try to drive the square peg of religion into the round hole of reason, you're going to cause friction. The Ark is a fairy tale, nothing more. Just go with it on that basis, ok?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:
omg,

I am just SO lmao. Imagine me, your humble DF, a minion of Beelzebub. Never met him, don't believe he exists.

Sorry if I flamed you out of the sky, OJ, but whenever you try to drive the square peg of religion into the round hole of reason, you're going to cause friction. The Ark is a fairy tale, nothing more. Just go with it on that basis, ok?

DF

I have a computer science degree and work in the nuclear field so I assure you that I am not a backwoods redneck that is beleiving in a fable. As I said before, judgment day will come and I am certain of that. I wish you nothing but the best.

quote:

Originally posted by GoFish:

quote:

Originally posted by SO TIRED OF IGNORANCE:
I will end this now with no ill feelings. You have done nothing by your comments but make my faith stronger.

I don't think DF was trying to get you to lose your faith (and I KNOW I'm not). And I assure you I am not employed by Satan.

What I am trying to do is demonstrate how utterly ridiculous it is to take the bible literally. I am trying to get the point across that science and religion simply do not mix. When you try to mix them, religious people appear as primitives who cower in caves at the sound of thunder from the Gods.

I'm glad to know the next time I present my vitae, with the four college degrees, wearing my Omega watch, and speaking perfect grammar and using unsurpassed diction, I will be perceived as a cowaring primitive.

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I'm glad to know the next time I present my vitae, with the four college degrees, wearing my Omega watch, and speaking perfect grammar and using unsurpassed diction, I will be perceived as a cowaring primitive.

Ooooo, impressive.

If you base your religion in a literal interpretation of the bible, you are indeed primitive and stupid not matter how many college degrees you have.*

I'm a college dropout and wear a Timex.

(*Note that I did NOT say that a belief in God is necessarily stupid.)

ooh, impressive. I graduated valedictorian of my college class. We're all scholars.

Now, let's discuss how we best understand nature. Is it more reasonable to believe those things we see, measure, test, try, and predict based on sound science?

Or is it better to abandon reason and intellect, and accept the poetic superstitions of primitive shepherds?

I submit it's good poetry, but a poor basis for the advancement of human knowledge.

My friends, if we want to use the Bible as a starting point for a discussion of morality, let's go. It is not the last word on morality, but it's a common point of reference on which we can begin a dialogue.

But the bible is often completely silent on many of the important things that are necessary for human life, comfort, and knowledge. And when the bible does speak of certain things, such as cosmology and biology, it is demonstrably wrong.

As for the ark. You know it's a fable. The story is impossible on many levels. There is exactly no evidence it ever happened. I'm sure that you, my fellow scholars, have examined the evidence for this and applied the proper scientific skepticism. To what conclusion did you come?

DF

LOL....I never professed to be a scholar. I was simply making the point that I also am not "stupid". I am sure there are thousands maybe a million people "smarter" than I am. However, the lack of common courtesy and maturity is not shown here in this discussion. I cannot answer every scientific question that you might have. Fortunately, I beleive in the impossible through God. But through your own definition of a miracle before would that not apply to the events surrounding the Ark? Something that cannot be explained with science that you must see with your own eyes? I am not going to fight with you especially when some have not had the raising to not call names like a 6 year old. If you have a logical question that you beleive the Bible does not address, please ask me and I will find the answer. Maybe we will both learn something.

That's what roofer addict said.

did you post here before?

DF

STOI


You wound me. What do you mean, lack of common courtesy and maturity?

We are talking about the examination of nature. Is the acceptance of science and reason less mature than belief in superstition?

DF

Previous posts of GoFish and DeepFat:
What I am trying to do is demonstrate how utterly ridiculous it is to take the bible literally. I am trying to get the point across that science and religion simply do not mix. When you try to mix them, religious people appear as primitives who cower in caves at the sound of thunder from the Gods.

If you base your religion in a literal interpretation of the bible, you are indeed primitive and stupid not matter how many college degrees you have.*

We are talking about the examination of nature. Is the acceptance of science and reason less mature than belief in superstition?
________________________________________________

Below is my reply:

You say science and religion don’t mix. You have hit the very reason that scientists have not been able to discover or prove how man or the universe came into existence. Evolution is a theory or guess that makes an attempt to determine our existence by using only the things that can be studied and documented. Science automatically rules out anything supernatural before even beginning, because they have no way of measuring it, or proving their findings to others. Scientists have no way of studying the supernatural without observing it in action. Scientists were not present when God created the heavens and the earth and when he made man from the dust of the ground and breathed into him life. God will not fit into their laboratory. Since science eliminates God and the supernatural from their studies, they have eliminated the answer to their problem before they even get started. Scientists have learned much, but the scientists that use scientific methods to determine how we came into existence have committed themselves in attaining an impossible goal. The role of recognizing how we came into existence is more the role of a detective than a scientist. The signs are everywhere that our Creator has been here. You can’t put God under a microscope. You can’t locate Him with a telescope. And you can’t fit Him into a laboratory. There are some things that scientists have no ability to do, because the means of approaching the subject using scientific methods is not feasible or possible. The reason science has chosen evolution as their theory, is because it removes God and the supernatural from the picture, and allows them to study rocks and organic matter to find the pieces of their puzzle. That is the only way they can study and document their findings in a way to prove to others what they have found to be true. Yet in all their efforts, they have not come close to proving that life can exist by accidental means. Nor have they even proved that life can evolve without any intelligent intervention. Evolution is still just as much an unproven theory today as it was when they first drew up this theory. You put your trust in a theory that man cannot prove, although they have put great effort in trying to do so. Show me the proof that you are right by scientific methods, and I will show you that I’m right by scientific methods.

You criticize those who attempt to prove their faith in God or in the bible by using science. I agree with you to a large degree on this, because science is so limited in its abilities to prove anything, that it often has no place in an intelligent discussion on certain issues. Besides, science excludes God and the supernatural from the very beginning in its studies, because it would be difficult to study God and observe His actions in a controlled laboratory environment. God cannot be made to act when they have their cameras ready to catch Him in action. God will not stick His finger under a microscope when He is asked to. God cannot be controlled by man, nor can he be confined to a laboratory. Also God isn’t limited to the laws understood by scientists, because God is capable of the impossible. Since science can only prove something by careful observation and the examination and study of things in a controlled laboratory environment, they have an understood rule to keep God out of their picture. That only leaves them with the ability to study rocks, planets, organisms, etc. that they might put under a microscope and be able to examine. Scientists cannot use scientific analysis to take God’s word on anything, nor can they take the word of another. Although it is 100% true that God created the heavens and the earth and all life that is on it, scientists have no means of proving it. So they continue to plod along picking up things, turning them over and breaking them apart in order to make their analysis. Scientists will not discover the origin of life, or the origin of the universe, because of the very limitations that they impose on themselves in their study. From the very beginning, scientists exclude God from the picture, because they cannot fit him into their laboratory. Scientists are extremely handicapped by their self-imposed limitations. Scientists may very well believe in God, but they would have a difficult time in proving His existence by limited scientific methods. All they can do is study what God has made. In studying God’s handwork they have made some awesome discoveries that should make any person realize that neither we, nor the universe could ever exist by a freak accident, or a series of freak accidents. Many scientists believe in God, but they cannot prove it by scientific methods. Many scientists do not believe in God, yet they cannot prove their belief by any evidence studied. Scientists can’t put God under a microscope and prove His existence, but neither can they prove the theory of evolution under a microscope either. Where does that leave your baseless argument? You have no proof by science, neither can you prove God doesn’t exist by science. Science is not the reasonable way of finding the answers in all scenarios, and this is one of those scenarios that science makes a fool of itself in.

Scientists are no different than anyone else. There are foolish scientists and there are wise ones. You put a lot of stock in people whose only ability is to analyze rocks and such, and in all their years of study, they have yet to get anywhere close to proving their theory of evolution.

The question then might be if evolution is only a theory that has yet to be proved, then why is it still around? I might see God, but to prove I see Him to a skeptical audience with only my word would be difficult. Many might see a noticeable difference in me that no logic can explain; yet many would still refuse to believe that God had a hand in it. Even when a large group sees a miracle of God in action, and knows He has made an entrance before their eyes, they may still find their unified testimony to be counted as baloney of fabrication by others who weren’t there. God is a personal God, and those who know Him, know that He exists, but it is often their word against the skeptic’s word. Evolution, even though it is a preposterous and yet to be provable concept, is the closest thing that scientists can come up with to explain life without the inclusion of God or the supernatural, so they cling to their beloved theory as if it were gold. The theory of evolution is no more than an idea put together by mans limited imagination, that allows scientists to have something to focus on in their search, without having to put God under the microscope, or having to prove His existence. Yet scientists have yet to discover any credible evidence to prove the theory of evolution to be a fact, so today after years and years of study, it is still only a theory.

If you want to believe that something extremely complicated was created by an accident, then your only logic would be to start at the least complicated and proceed to the more complicated. There is nothing mind blowing in the theory of evolution. Yet evolution is ridiculous when examined closer, and it is full of unplugged holes. Evolution is the only leg that scientists and atheists have to stand on, even though it is a wooden leg of their own fabrication. Once God is known to be real, then the whole premise of evolution appears foolish. Evolution has no scientific basis, and all odds are against it. What logical process do scientists have to offer that explains our wondrous existence? Scientists can only study what exists, yet how everything got here they have no earthly idea. They can never start with a lifeless material and figure out how life came to be. Neither can they start with life and trace it to its raw beginning. There is no scientific evidence that sheds any credible light on the preposterous idea of evolution. There is no evidence to support this theory, and that is the reason it is called a theory. Evolution is nothing more than a premise or guess that lacks any solid foundation in science or anything else. Looking at fossils doesn’t tell you how life got here. Studying the basic materials that compose a living thing doesn’t tell you how it was formed or how life was imparted to it? But if we consider more than what meets the eye, we should be aware that what we are and what we see would not exists without a maker, who we call God.

So often people like yourself will criticize others who take the bible literally, simply because they consider its stories impossible to have happened. Tell me how the universe can be possible. Tell me how life, intelligence, emotions, physical attraction, and the remarkable abilities to move, see, hear, smell, and taste can be possible. How can a human brain exist, and be so complexly wired as to send an electrical signal to the one unique nerve ending that will cause a muscle to contract or relax in just the right way and at just the right part of the body to lift a heavy weight or guide a delicate precision instrument? How can that human brain take signals from the eye and from the touch of the hand so that the whole body seems to work in synchronization and purpose? Could all of these things happen by accident? What designed the heart so that it would pump the blood through all its arteries and vessels, so that all the body might receive life and sustenance? How can we move our fingers and blink our eyes with only a thought? How did the heart know it should speed up at times and slow down at other times, based on the energy expended? How long would man have had to live before his heart and brain would have evolved to that level? What of our emotions and our ability to understand and use intelligence? Could that have happened by accident? What is it that sets the forces in action within the mind to control the many functions of the body without any necessary conscious effort on our part? Would this remarkable brain have evolved before the finger evolved, or after the finger evolved? Would the heart have evolved before the blood vessels or after? Would emotions have existed before or after the human being was developed? How can there be so many different people in the world who are basically built and designed in a similar fashion, yet have recognizable distinctions so that we are all individuals with different finger prints, different voices, and different faces and physiques, allowing us all to be special and recognizable in this great scheme of things. Do your honestly accept the preposterous belief that all these remarkable things could have evolved from a long series of accidents, which occurred exactly in the proper sequence and timing necessary to progress to where it is today? You expect others to acknowledge your ridiculous and impossible conclusion as a reasonable hypothesis, even though you present it without factual basis? Then you turn around and are you so vain as to believe that God could not have done the things written of Him in the bible, simply because He would have had to work beyond the realm of what you consider to be possible? If you consider evolution and the big bang to be the explanation of the existence of the world and of human life, surely you can believe in anything. Is your tremendous capacity for logic and reason the standard for all other logic and reason? I bet that you could create the world if you chose to. Is it necessary that a God, who created the universe and breathed life into the first man, would have to do things in a way that would be dictated by the laws and limitations that we are subject to? Is it beyond our Creator’s ability to keep an ark made of wood intact that is built according to His instructions? Could He have not designed every detail exactly as needed to contain all its various creatures? Could the birds not ride on the backs of the animals? What makes you think it could not be done, simply because you wouldn’t be able to do it? You are constantly referring to those who disagree with you as ignorant people because they take the bible literally. Shouldn’t the one who created the universe out of nothing, and created all living things, not also be able to keep a wooden ark together, even if it were made of paper or straw? God is a God who works the impossible. He does not work in your limited boundaries of reality. What law would hinder God from doing what ever He chose to do, and in whatever manner he determined to do it? Is it impossible for the entire world to be covered with water, yet only one family survive it because they believed God and obeyed His commands? You mock those who take the bible literally. Why do you only attribute to God the limited ability of the human? Have you considered the strength of the ant according to its size? Could God not create a man with remarkable strengths and abilities if He chose to? Could the one who created the oceans and rivers and lakes not be able to walk on them also? What makes you think that God must work within the realms of what you consider to be possible? Can a God who designed the forces not be able to work outside the laws of physics? Are you the one who has the responsibility to keep check on God’s children, in order to ensure that we only keep our belief within the realm of your accepted boundaries? Why is it that you do not believe in a God who might be capable of doing what you cannot? If you were God, would you place the same limitations on yourself that you would place on your creation? Would you make it so that you could never intervene in your own work? Once you set things in motion, would you have limited yourself to act only within the natural laws you placed on your creation. Did the laws exist before the universe came into existence, or did the laws only maintain the universe within boundaries that God imposed on it? You look at the word of God and say hogwash because you count its remarkable stories as impossible. You look at the universe and foolishly count its complexities the possibility of an accident without design or purpose. In both respects you remove all possibility of any intelligent intervention, and rid yourself of all intellectual reasoning? You are a fool in both perceptions. The incredible existence of the universe and of all the complex forms of life reveal that a maker must exist who is wondrously capable beyond the realm of our imagination, and whose abilities far exceed ours. At least it does to most of us. However when you look at the universe you see an accident resulting from an explosion of some kind. And when you look at the human race you see a long series of mutations developing from the first accidental one-celled amoeba that came into existence billions of years ago. Aren’t you intelligent!


You don’t need science to make logical conclusions. It is amazing the capability we already have to evaluate many things around us without using scientific methods. We don’t need a college degree to learn how to make use of the senses and intelligence we were born with. Yet do you know how they work? Can you understand which nerve that your brain sends a signal to in order to move your little finger? Do you know how great an electrical impulse to send to control the force and direction of movement of the little finger? How is it that it works when you don’t understand it? Could you actually be a freak accident? Why is it that so many like yourself can’t realize what is so obvious? I look and see the moon circle the planet and always facing the earth from the same side while most every other body is rotating. Scientists call the attractions between the heavenly bodies gravity, and they calculate the force of it to a large degree because of its consistency, but just because they have a name for this force, doesn’t mean they know why it exists? What brought these laws into existence? Why do heavenly bodies attract instead of repel one another. Did they have some chaotic and random beginning and then by accident end up in some fantastic arrangement that held them all together in patterns and rhythms of time. Did some unknown explosion put together the entire universe? What is responsible for the final precise balancing act of the universe which allows us to predict the phases of the moon and the time of each day’s revolution on its axis, so much that we can use it as a standard to measure time against? The Hubble telescope has made some fascinating snapshots of strange and mysterious things in the universe. Scientists try to look into the past in order to determine our beginning. They study as best they can the elements that might be found on the planets and stars by examining light wavelengths, etc. but they are only more fascinated and bewildered by what they see, than narrowing down their explanation of it all. They come up with theories and then have to reevaluate them as more evidence is discovered. There seems to be no limit to what is in space, and the boundary of space is yet to be found. But consider also what you see everyday on this earth. Doctors and biologists take a close look at life and the complication and precision of it, and it is no less fascinating. There are fascinating plants and creatures all around us. Yet isn’t it fascinating how a human is always born to a human, and a dog to a dog. Why does the giraffe have such a long neck? Did it evolve because the tree leaves got higher off of the ground? Did the mother and father deer decide that their children should have longer necks, and out popped this new creature we call a giraffe that was better equipped to survive the elements? Did that giraffe look around and find another giraffe and then have intercourse and populate the world with giraffes? You mock the Christian for His ignorant belief in the impossible. My friend, I wouldn’t throw stones if I were you.

quote:

Originally posted by dialectic:

quote:

Originally posted by FirenzeVeritas:
I'm glad to know the next time I present my vitae, with the four college degrees, wearing my Omega watch, and speaking perfect grammar and using unsurpassed diction, I will be perceived as a cowaring primitive.

Spell check would have given this that extra "umph". A-

Sorry, think that was my typing. Still, I was shooting for some humor...

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Why does the giraffe have such a long neck? Did it evolve because the tree leaves got higher off of the ground? Did the mother and father deer decide that their children should have longer necks, and out popped this new creature we call a giraffe that was better equipped to survive the elements? Did that giraffe look around and find another giraffe and then have intercourse and populate the world with giraffes? You mock the Christian for His ignorant belief in the impossible. My friend, I wouldn’t throw stones if I were you.

Your ignorance is so very profound that I don't know where to begin. So I won't. I hope your self delusion brings you much happiness. I will choose to live in the light of reason and sanity.

quote:

The question then might be if evolution is only a theory that has yet to be proved, then why is it still around?

Evolution is a stone cold fact. Anyone with three brain cells and an honest mind knows it.

quote:

Evolution has no scientific basis,

I'm afraid I have to agree with my friend gofish again. You are too ignorant to discuss this topic with.

So, how are the fish biting?

DF

quote from DeepFat:
Evolution is a stone cold fact. Anyone with three brain cells and an honest mind knows it.
________________________________________________

What do you believe a theory is? Do we call evolution a law or a theory? Look it up.

Will you be happy if we call it the Law of Evolution? fine.

It's a Law, then.

DF

Evolution is a stone cold fact. Anyone with three brain cells and an honest mind knows it.


quote:
Evolution has no scientific basis,
________________________________________________

What I should have said is that evolution is not based on any provable scientific evidence. Even though a theory is a logical conclusion based on the study of facts, it cannot be termed a fact unless it has the potential of being proven as such. Scientific theories accepted as factual must be falsifiable. Evolution cannot be falsifiable, because it has no provable or disprovable conclusion derived from the factual evidence. Some theories are easily accepted as facts because they can be shown in calculations using mathematical methods, or they can produce predictable and reliable outcomes in repeated demonstrations. However, the theory of evolution cannot be proven by mathematics. It cannot be proven in a experimental demonstration because it requires thousands to billions of years to even build a workable case for it. Any intelligent intervention would destroy the premise that it is a natural progression. When evolution is closely examined it loses all credibility, and has no proof whatsoever for its claims.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
When evolution is closely examined it loses all credibility, and has no proof whatsoever for its claims.

Okay. Let's "closely examine" one single aspect of evolution. I'll let you pick the subject.

Some suggestions would be:

The evidence for a 6000 year old earth.

Dinosaurs walked with man.

The Grand Canyon.

The lack of evidence for one animal evolving into another (a small, furry, ferret-like animal to an elephant, for example)

The human eye.

I'm sure you have some others. Let's take a close look at the one, single aspect that you feel epitomizes Evolution's shortcoming the most.

Okay. Let's "closely examine" one single aspect of evolution. I'll let you pick the subject.

Some suggestions would be:

The evidence for a 6000 year old earth.

Dinosaurs walked with man.

The Grand Canyon.

The lack of evidence for one animal evolving into another (a small, furry, ferret-like animal to an elephant, for example)

The human eye.

I'm sure you have some others. Let's take a close look at the one, single aspect that you feel epitomizes Evolution's shortcoming the most.
________________________________________________
There you go. You ask me to disprove your theory. Diprove God if you will. If you can prove your theory, I will prove there is a God.
I really don't see how either of these subjects can lend any credibility to your theory. You have the burden of proof, not me.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
There you go. You ask me to disprove your theory. Diprove God if you will. If you can prove your theory, I will prove there is a God.

Ahh yes, the old "evade and deflect" strategy. I'm going to bite, anyway:

I would never, ever ask anyone to "disprove" anything. That is not how science works. You "prove" things by presenting supporting evidence. It is the evidence that supports the theory, not the other way around.

I was only asking you to pick your best or most favorite single piece of evidence that supports your hypothesis that all of creation was poofed into existence 6000 years ago by a omnipotent space alien.

Heck, I'll start if you wish: My favorite piece of evidence for a unimaginably old universe (other than my mother-in-law) is the distance between opposite ends of our own tiny galaxy: 100,000 light-years.

go, you know as well as I that what4 can't prove one thing. There is nothing to prove. His "mind" is poisoned by a primitive superstition that was created by understandably ignorant people a long time ago before the realities of nature became apparent.

The sad part is his, and others', reluctance to recognize the progress our species has made in understanding nature. Their insistence on clinging to a world of demons and magic, when there is a better way of looking at things, is truly pitiful. Deliberate, stubborn, ignorance with conviction is just so pathetic. It is the reason why people all over laugh at the South.

When people think of backwards idiots, mired in cobwebbed superstitions, they don't think of Chicago. They see snake-handling, speaking-in-tongues, Creationists from the South.

To abandon intelligence and progress is truly embarrassing.

DF

Quote:
Ahh yes, the old "evade and deflect" strategy. I'm going to bite, anyway:

I would never, ever ask anyone to "disprove" anything. That is not how science works. You "prove" things by presenting supporting evidence. It is the evidence that supports the theory, not the other way around.

I was only asking you to pick your best or most favorite single piece of evidence that supports your hypothesis that all of creation was poofed into existence 6000 years ago by a omnipotent space alien.

Heck, I'll start if you wish: My favorite piece of evidence for a unimaginably old universe (other than my mother-in-law) is the distance between opposite ends of our own tiny galaxy: 100,000 light-years.
________________________________________________

My Reply:

First off I’ve shown to you that the theory of evolution has no provable or disprovable conclusion. It requires a great leap of faith to believe in it. It can’t stand up under any merits of mathematical evaluation and it cannot predict any future state of life that will give credibility or provable verification based on any predictable conclusion. You cannot disprove a theory that presents no standard that it can be measured by. However, I will make an effort to understand your argument and debate you on the time issue, because many people by their ignorance on the matter try and destroy the credibility of the bible with it.

I’m not sure where you’re headed in referring to the distance between opposite ends of our own galaxy. I suppose you are referring to a possible estimate of when our galaxy might have began by studying the distances of stars or heavenly bodies from us, and making note of how fast they might be traveling away from us. If scientists have an accurate way of determining present distance along with speed, direction, and acceleration of a body in space, they might be able to determine the time when all the bodies of space would have had some common beginning. This may be what you are referring to. However, their conclusion must be based on the premise that the speed or acceleration has remained constant since it first began. I have no real problem with the universe being produced in one moment of time. That would coincide completely with God’s word on the matter. I also have no problem with the age of the universe, although I’m not sure just how accurate scientific conclusions are when looking at the age of our universe. However, I have no issue with the age of our universe or of the earth being in question, because to me it has no relevance as to how it was created. There is no conflict in time estimates, as far as I understand it, with the scientific estimation of time against the light the bible sheds on the matter. Believe what you want to believe on time. I see no conflict in believing in God, and accepting Him as the Creator, and still agree somewhat in the initial premise that the earth was created in an instant of time by an explosion of immense power. That sounds like the way God would have began the universe as far as I’m concerned. However, the problem with the Big Bang theory is that when God is left out of the picture, you have no reason for the beginning action to take place, and surely no way that the complicated and mysterious universe could have reached the stable and beautiful existence that it now exhibits.

What is your concern in proving evolution with how old the earth or the universe is? The creation of the universe and the creation of life are covered under different theories. I have no problem with the estimated age of the universe by scientists. But where the theory of evolution is concerned, if it makes no sense whether it has 3000 years or 100 billion years for life to form, because it would be impossible to have happened by pure chance, no matter how long you give it. If in your mention of the age of the earth you are trying to pit science against the bible, maybe we can discuss the issue. But if you are trying to prove evolution, you are way off the mark here.

I don’t believe you can determine the age of the universe by scripture, although many believe they can. There are primarily 2 reasons I don’t believe you can. Many try and determine the age of the earth from the bible by determining the age of the generations of man from Adam until the present. I believe that they erroneously determine that the earth and the universe were created about 5 - 24 hr days before Adam was formed. Also, I don’t believe that Adam’s age starts from when he was first formed, but rather it started on the day when he first sinned, and the countdown to death began. To start with, when God first created the heavens and the earth, the earth was void and dark, and covered with water. It probably bore little resemblance to what we know it as today. Light had not yet come into existence on its behalf. After it was created it could have remained for billions of years in this dark and water covered state. What reason would an eternal God have to hurry on such matters? Later God said let there be light, and there was light. So some point in time after God created the heavens and the earth, He caused light to enter the picture and shine on the earth. It was only at this point in time that day and night came into play for the planet earth. These may have been 24 hr. days but there is no way of knowing. What this source of light was I do not know, because the sun, moon, and the stars were not part of the earth’s firmament to provide it light until the 4th day. It could be that the earth was at this time not circling the sun, or the sun’s light was hid from it. The earth may have not even been caught up in the present stable rotation and orbit, as we understand it today. Whatever the length of day, the days began to be numbered and would mark the dividing line between God’s interventions concerning His creation. It wasn’t until the 4th day that the sun, the stars, and the moon became a part of the earth’s continued source of light, and became a standard by which today’s time is measured. How long did these first 3 days last? Were they 24 hr. days or thousand year days? How long did the earth exist before day and night even came into existence on its behalf? The length of time that the earth was in its initial state of darkness could have been billions of years. The length of time that the waters took to recede from the earth and dry land appear, and the sky form between the waters on the earth and above the earth, could have been thousands or billions of years. The length of time the earth was being prepared with grass, shrubs, fruit bearing trees, etc. could have been thousands or billions of years. It wasn’t until the 4th day that a situation is described where the earth appears to share today’s same relation to the sun, moon and stars, and has them in its surrounding view, so this is the only time we can reasonably expect that an actual 24 hr. day and night cycle might have began.

We often assume that the earth always was positioned with the same familiar sky we see each day and night, but that appears it might not be the case. In the very beginning, the earth probably held little if any resemblance to what it is today, and the place in the universe that it held is unknown. Some do not accept Genesis as an actual day-by-day account of creation. Some believe that God may have been more interested in letting us know how we fit into the scheme of His creation, rather than giving us a literal day to day account on how everything came into being. Whatever a person’s belief, I do not believe the bible can be used as a source to determine the age of the universe, because I believe that there is no way of knowing given the account told of it, just how long the universe existed before the time that Adam and Eve sinned, and before their days would have been numbered. The age of the universe and of earth might be a question for the curios, but in our relationship to God, that answer is not important.

If you read on in Genesis chapter 2, you might notice that when Adam was formed that the grass and shrubs had not yet appeared on the earth, or at least not outside of the Garden of Eden that God had prepared for Adam. It appears that life on the rest of the earth had yet to be developed to the point that any animal or man could be sustained by it. Even though God had set things in motion on the 6th day for all life on the dry land to come into existence, there is no telling how much longer it took for the earth to be populated with plants and living creatures. Only in the Garden of Eden was plant life, animal life, or human life to be found with any certainty. Yet, by the time that Adam and Eve sinned against God and were cast out of the garden, plant life and animals would have surely populated the earth so that a support basis for Adam and his descendants would have been there. So the question then is how long did Adam and Eve live before they sinned against God and were cast out of the Garden of Eden. They could have lived thousands or billions of years before being deceived by Satan and sinning against God. It was only when they had sinned, and death was to be their certain end, that their remaining days would have any reason to be numbered. Adam and Eve were created to live forever. Why would there have been a reason to keep a record of the number of days they lived, until they knew that they had time running out on them? Why measure someone’s age when they have no end to them? I don’t expect that those who enter the kingdom of heaven will bother keeping up with the years of their age throughout eternity? We do not know how long Adam and Eve lived without death looking over their shoulders. They could have easily lived for billions of years before Satan found a way to draw them into disobedience by deception, and caused them to doubt God’s word. I strongly believe that any age attributed to Adam must start from the day that he first sinned against God, because only then would His remaining days have reason to be numbered. So then the question is how long did the earth exist before Adam and Eve sinned against God and their age was actually counted? There is no reason why scientific estimates could not be right according to scripture. Scripture gives no conclusive time to estimate the age of the universe or of the earth. Scripture doesn’t even give the time as to how long Adam and Eve lived on earth before the fall. At least it doesn’t according to what I have read. If it does, then I will accept the scripture before I will accept the conclusion of man, because I have much more confidence in scripture, than I do in any man’s conclusions that conflicts with it.

If you are trying to say that the bible gives a wrong account of the age of our earth, it may be that you have been given wrong information. The bible will stand the test of time. Any conclusion that science draws that is in opposition to God’s word will surely fly back in the face of the scientists when they later discover the truth. However, sometimes there is no real conflict, but rather only misinterpretation of scripture. Often people make the mistake that just because something has been accepted or even taught from the pulpit, that it is true. Sometimes we all have to take a second look in order to see the truth more clearly. Science has yet to prove the bible wrong. The conclusion that the theory of evolution makes cannot be proved. If you can prove it, then do so. I’m a little irritated at people trying to declare that it is a fact when it is not. A conclusion based on the study of facts, is not always a factual conclusion. Scientists seem to stand strong on their theory of evolution and ask that we disprove it when we disagree with it. They are going to have to prove it first. I hold God to His word and expect that He will honor His word. I stand on it by faith. I have seen God come through for me when all natural logical circumstances were against it. Science, however, seems to get away with saying anything and not being held accountable to back up their claims with verifiable proof. Most theories of science are reasonable and even provable. Why they destroy their credibility with something as ridiculous as the theory of evolution, makes no real sense, unless God’s impossibilities so trouble them that they are willing to accept anything that comes close to explaining life, as long as it gets God out of the picture.

You ask my to prove God. God has proved Himself to me by honoring His word. I believe His word, and science has offered me no reason not to. If you are really interested in learning if God is real or not, and are willing to listen to and allow God to change your heart, and give you a new purpose for living, you will eventually see proof of His existence. However, if you resist every effort God makes on your behalf, and continue to mock Him and those who trust Him, then I could tell you everything God has done for me, but you would not believe me. I'm no longer trying to convince you that God is real. However, I'm tired of seeing the ignorant theory of evolution presented as if it is a fact, and people using science as if it has the final answer without it offering proof of its findings.

It may be some time before I can respond to any future posts because of situations coming up.

Well, I am a believer and I do believe in creation and I have had my share of arguments here with DF and GF. I also agree with them on some things, not concerning God of course. Right now I don't feel like going to battle but I do have one question for the "Big Bangers". Let's just say that the evolutionists are right. Well then, I spent my life being the best person I could be. I have tried to love everyone as myself. I have truly been a moral person. I have been a good husband and father. I have helped the needy and just genuinely loved people. What happens when I die but nothing. I return to the earth as fertilizer. I cease to exist. No harm, no foul. BUT, what if I am right? Where does that leave you?

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
I have no issue with the age of our universe or of the earth being in question, because to me it has no relevance as to how it was created. There is no conflict in time estimates, as far as I understand it, with the scientific estimation of time against the light the bible sheds on the matter.

Then you are completely and utterly contrary to your faith. The Bible is very clear that the Earth and the rest of the universe are exactly the same age: 6000 years old.

Again I ask: What single piece of evidence best supports your theory that all we see was poofed into existence by an omnipotent space alien? Come now, you speak as if you understand the science behind all this. You must have a piece of evidence that you have deemed as incontrovertible. What is it?

quote:

Originally posted by outspokenjerk:
I spent my life being the best person I could be. I have tried to love everyone as myself. I have truly been a moral person. I have been a good husband and father. I have helped the needy and just genuinely loved people.

Then you and I have much in common.

quote:

What happens when I die but nothing. I return to the earth as fertilizer. I cease to exist. No harm, no foul. BUT, what if I am right? Where does that leave you?

Let's assume we both lead moral lives as we both say we have done. Where do you think that leaves me?

You asked: Let's assume we both lead moral lives as we both say we have done. Where do you think that leaves me?

Assuming you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, as all Christians have, then you my friend will be in heaven. We can't get there by just being good people. In my last post I thought it was understood of me already having been a believer. That's my bad. I should've been clearer.

quote:

Assuming you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, as all Christians have, then you my friend will be in heaven.

Would an evil believer be more likely to get to heaven than a moral, fine unbeliever?

DF

GoFish, you said "The Bible is very clear that the Earth and the rest of the universe are exactly the same age: 6000 years old." Could you expound on that please? Where does it say that?

You know, I don't think I've ever asked either of you (GoFish, DeepFat) this question...how do you think the world began? Please forgive me if it's actually on this thread...my time is limited right now.

of course, joy.

The world is a collection of fortunate chemicals that came together as the universe became more ordered than the original chaos of the Big Bang.

Of the billions of planets that exist, we are the only one we recognize as having the elements that make life,as we know it, possible. But, among all those planets, this fortunate circumstance is almost inevitable!

Lucky us! But of course, we take it for granted.

DF

I think I'm experiencing the same stunned wonder that you may have experienced when I told you what I believed...lol. Dude, it takes way more faith to believe what you believe than what I believe, but that's just my opinion. You'd probably say the same about me.

I lean more towards the Gap Creationism, or the concept of it.

DF, do you like the nebular hypothesis theory? I'm just curious on your thoughts of various things like heat death or the steady state theory. Have you ever believed in God or a god? If I'm being intrusive, please don't answer and I'm sorry. I'm just curious about the belief of a nonexistence god and/or possibly those who believe in empiricism. I guess what I'm really wondering is most Christians, those born again, come to a point where they accept Jesus as their saviour; when do atheist come to the point where they accept their beliefs? Does that make sense?

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
GoFish, you said "The Bible is very clear that the Earth and the rest of the universe are exactly the same age: 6000 years old." Could you expound on that please? Where does it say that?

Hello,

If you don't mind me stepping in here: Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
I think I'm experiencing the same stunned wonder that you may have experienced when I told you what I believed...lol. Dude, it takes way more faith to believe what you believe than what I believe, but that's just my opinion. You'd probably say the same about me.

I kinda had that same experience when I discovered that little people actually don't live inside the television set (which really destroyed my life-long fantasy or marrying Penelope Pitstop but that's another story).

Believe it or not, those little people are generated by some miraculous mixture of phosphorus, cathode rays and magnets.

Jim, don't go tempting me to dig in my t.v. again! LOL <See "Something I Just Found Out" thread in Feedback Forum>

I looked at the website you posted. Thank you. This is probably what GoFish was referring to.

I really do not know if the 7 days of creation were literally 7 24-hour days or not. Second Peter 2:8 says "With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Also, I'm not so sure that the word "day" as we refer to it was the actual meaning in this verse. When you look at the Greek/Hebrew lexicon, it gives the following meaning for the word translated to English as day.


1. day, time year
a. day (as opposed to night)
b. day (24 hour period)
1. As defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2. As a division of time
c. a working day, a day’s journey
d. days, lifetime (pl.)
e. time, period (general)
f. year
g. temporal references
1. today
2. yesterday
3. tomorrow


So, I guess we just don't know for sure.

<edit - well, for some reason I can't get that definition to reformat - hope you can make sense of it>

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
Jim, don't go tempting me to dig in my t.v. again! LOL <See "Something I Just Found Out" thread in Feedback Forum>

I looked at the website you posted. Thank you. This is probably what GoFish was referring to.

I really do not know if the 7 days of creation were literally 7 24-hour days or not. You know there's that verse that says something like "to God a day is a thousand years and a thousand years is a day".

Also, I'm not so sure that the word "day" as we refer to it was the actual meaning in this verse. When you look at the Greek/Hebrew lexicon, it gives the following meaning for the word translated to English as day.

1. day, time, year
a. day (as opposed to night)
b. day (24 hour period)
1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2. as a division of time 1b
c. a working day, a day's journey
d. days, lifetime (pl.)
e. time, period (general)
f. year
g. temporal references
1. today
2. yesterday
3. tomorrow


So, I guess we just don't know for sure.

With God,..... time means nothing. To man a day means 24 hours..... it could have taken God 4 million years to complete the first week. Ive always thought that it wasnt 24 hours per day that first week...... till man was formed. This would explain why the beasts of the fields roamed before man... ie dinosaurs. But eventually it all comes down to faith or lack of it. If you believe, you do, if you dont, aint nothing im gonna say gonna change that. I also think the flood seperated the land mass..... i look at how S. America can fit into Africa...... like a puzzle...... ok, laugh,.... lol..... its all good.... but its just somethings ive thought about.

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
1. day, time, year
a. day (as opposed to night)
b. day (24 hour period)
1. as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2. as a division of time 1b
c. a working day, a day's journey
d. days, lifetime (pl.)
e. time, period (general)
f. year
g. temporal references
1. today
2. yesterday
3. tomorrow


So, I guess we just don't know for sure.

As usual, your response sounds reasonable. However, your contemporaries and cohorts staunchly believe in a LITERAL interpretation which means 6000 years ago and everything created in 6 LITERAL days.

The 20 million dollar Creation Museum you defended some moons ago is built around that exact premise.

So, again, your beliefs are completely at odds with your own camp. How do you reconcile that?

Easy. I'm right and they are wrong...haha. Just kidding of course.

I defended the Creation Museum's right to put on display their ideas of Bible and Science walking hand in hand. Since I have never been there, I cannot say whether I agree with their ideas or not. I am quite curious; I would love to see it. I'll have to talk hubby into a road trip.

I actually think that there are more Christians that would agree with my interpretation of scripture than you think. We don't all agree with the extremists quoted in the news. The very fact that they were quoted in the news should make you hesitant to believe they represent all Christians.

I do admit that I'm kind of an oddball Christian in a way (tread carefully, Buster...haha). I don't agree with any one denomination's doctrine of belief to the letter. However, since I am certain without a doubt that God could care less what denomination I belong to anyway, I'm okay with that.

I have to wonder if this is not another characteristic true of more Christians than we'd think.

Quote from GoFish:
Then you are completely and utterly contrary to your faith. The Bible is very clear that the Earth and the rest of the universe are exactly the same age: 6000 years old.
________________________________________________________________________


My reply:

I just told you that there are two problems with getting the age of the universe from the bible. I’ll start with the first problem once more. Don’t you recall that the sun, moon, and stars as we know it did not give light to the earth until day 4. God created the heavens and the earth, and then after that, He said let there be light. He referred to the light and darkness that He called into existence as day and night, well before the sun and moon ever had been made to shine upon the earth from its surrounding heavens. What gave light and how long each day and night were before the 4th day of creation is not identified. Also, keep in mind that the heavens and the earth were created before God even said, “Let there be light.” There would have been no day before light came into existence. We know for a fact that the earth was dark and void when it was first created, because God said it was so. So light did not exist the same time the earth was created. How can anybody know how long the earth existed in that dark state? It was only after God called light into existence that the day and night began to be a dividing line between each of God’s interventions in His creation. How, can you assume, given the word of God in Genesis, that the earth was only 5 - 24 hr. days old before Adam was formed from its dust. How can anybody derive from the word of God the age of the universe, unless they choose to ignore exactly what the scripture says? I look at Genesis and get a lot of information, but I do not get the age of the earth or of the universe. I tend to believe that the earth and the universe are the same age, because God said in the beginning He created the heavens and the earth. But how old they are, I have no idea by reading the bible. God clearly identified the progressive stages of His creation until He got to man. Only on the 4th day, can we feel reasonable that 24 hr. days might have begun. Much of these stages are captured in man’s theory of evolution, as if Charles Darwin was the first to figure this progression out. God gave us the order of His creation in Genesis, long before Charles Darwin was ever born. I can see from Genesis and on throughout the bible, that mankind is the most precious thing to God out of all His creation. I see how man was created from the dust of the earth, and I see the reason that we all must die and return again to dust. God gives us a record in His word of the individual phases of how the world and life came into existence, and the order that things were created, but He gives us no record of the actual age of the earth or of its surrounding universe. I believe too often people read the bible with preconceived ideas, and they never really pay close attention to what it actually says.

I don’t believe God gave us the revelation in Genesis of His creation as a means of determining the age of the universe. It was only intended to let us know that He created it and the order that all was created. However, the 2nd reason I gave you is further evidence that we can’t use the bible as a source of determining the earth’s age. There is a clear problem in trying to calculate the age of the earth by going back through each generation of man from Adam, and calculating an approximate age of the earth by the record of how long each generation lived. I strongly believe that Adam’s age given would not have been a record of how long he lived from the day that he was first created, because there would have been no reason to keep up with his age until the countdown till death became an issue for him. I strongly believe Adam’s age is a record of how long he lived after he first sinned, because that is the first time the remaining days of his life would have had any reason to be numbered. Adam would not have died had he not sinned. Who cares how old you are if you are going to live forever? Look at the following first mention of age given to Adam.

Ge 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Now, if you start counting the age of Adam from the day that He was created and not from the day that he first sinned, then you are going to have to make Adam’s fall and awfully quick thing. He wouldn’t have much more been in the world until he sinned and was cursed to die if that was the case. Adam walked with God and talked with Him on a daily basis. God brought all the animals that He created to Adam to see what he would name them. At some point in time, God took one of Adam’s ribs and created a woman as a companion for Adam, because He said that it was not good for man to be alone. To say that Adam lived only one hundred and thirty years from the day he was first created, until the day that Eve was made, and until the day they sinned and were cast out of the garden, and finally until the day that Eve had her first child by Adam, is making everything happen pretty doggone fast. If that was the case, Eve got in an awful rush to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree and get things topsy-turvy for poor ole Adam and herself. I strongly believe that the age given to Adam at the time his first son was born would have been the years he had lived from the day that he and Eve had first sinned, and not from the day that he was created. Only after his sin, would his remaining days have any reason to be numbered. It wouldn’t surprise me if Adam and Eve lived a million years or longer before Satan set things in motion to make them doubt God’s word. If Adam’s age is from the day he sinned, and not from the day that he was created, and if the earth was created before light was in existence and it was not until later that the sun, moon and stars were in its heavens, then how can we determine that the earth was only created 5 – 24 hr. days longer than the given age of Adam?

You might consider this verse also:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

If the age of the universe is all that you have as proof that evolution is true, and that God doesn’t exist, then you have nothing. I’m getting my information directly from the bible. Where are you getting yours?

My friend, just because somebody tells you something that the bible says is so, doesn’t make it so. The pope in the day of Columbus said the earth was flat. The bible does not say that. I have learned a long time ago not to believe everything I hear. I put my trust in the bible as the final authority on what God has to say about a matter, and I thank God that I can read and study it for myself, and not have to depend on what others tell me it says. I suggest you read it for yourself sometime. You might be surprised what you will discover.

[Just saying,

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/solarsys/nebular.html

This would seem to imply that the nebulous hypothesis is more philosophical than scientific. Not a bad effort for the time, but probably insufficient these days.

As for the steady state theory of cosmology, it doesn't seem to have held up well after the discovery of the background radiation predicted by the Big Bang theory. I'm not sure what this has to do with the conversation at hand, but it seems to be inconsistent with contemporary measurements.

And as for heat death, it seems to be a possibility. We don't know if the universe will continue to expand into infinity, in which case heat death is a likely end. If, however, the universe eventually re contracts, due to dark matter, etc. then heat death will not occur. We don't really know yet. Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" gives both scenarios. I wish I understood it better.

DF

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Fisher:

quote:

Originally posted by _Joy_:
GoFish, you said "The Bible is very clear that the Earth and the rest of the universe are exactly the same age: 6000 years old." Could you expound on that please? Where does it say that?

Hello,

If you don't mind me stepping in here: Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism.

Jim Fisher, my friend, you are always welcome anywhere! Seen Spunk lately?

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
We know for a fact that the earth was dark and void when it was first created, because God said it was so. So light did not exist the same time the earth was created.

Wow.

Did you ever read a science book while in school? Did you even go to school?

This one single point invalidates your entire, rambling point. Do you have any idea that astronomers have discovered 236 planets outside our solar system so far?

Do you have any idea that planets are created only after a sun forms?

Did you know that the universe filled with light-giving stars and galaxies 10 billion years before our entire solar system was even a sparkle in Someone's eye?

No, I suppose you don't. Your self delusion is far too ingrained for you to ever be able to make sense of these kinds of things.

Quote:
Do you have any idea that planets are created only after a sun forms?
________________________________________________________________________

My friend, if this is still all you have, I'm still not impressed. Could it be possible that scientists don't even take notice of a galaxy until a bright star gets their attention? And if what you say is true, is it not possible that the earth could have been hid from the sun behind a massive body in space, or that space could have been filled with so much debris that the sun's rays could not reach the earth? All I know is that at some point God said let there be light, and at that time light appeared on the earth in a continual day and night manner. I didn't say that the sun had not already been created. I only said that the sun, moon and stars did not light up the earth’s sky in the beginning, and that in the beginning the earth was dark. How can you be so omnipotent to say that no planet could exist for a time without a star in its heavens being a source of light to it? Since you know so much, then what is it that makes a star appear out of nowhere? I have no problem with the earth being dark and empty in the beginning like you might. Besides, I’m not trying to give you exactly every detail that happened, because God’s word only gives a brief and very generalized overview of how the universe, earth, and life, came into existence. All I’m saying is that there can be no conclusion drawn concerning how old the earth is from the record given in Genesis.

If you want to spend your life believing in random happenings that result in wondrously complicated endings that would by all probabilities be impossible, then that is up to you. Again it comes down to what you want to believe in. You can state your life on the word of scientists if you want, but I state my eternal soul on the word of God.

Have you ever wondered why accidental evolution steered everything in a forward progression from a miraculous transformation of raw materials to life, on to extremely complicated forms of life, without regressing backward and dieing out again? How could any life accidentally come into existence in the first place, much less survive? Could the chaotic environment that once existed have so many odds in its favor that we who were once only raw materials, have become so complex that we can’t begin to comprehend all the complexities of which we are made? What ever happened to Murphy’s Law? Have you ever wondered why an accidental bang in the sky, and the random chaotic chance of evolution can accidentally produce life, and accidentally progress through all the wondrously complicated and various stages of life, but not be able to accidentally bring us to the point that we get past dieing? How is it that the accidents that so miraculously got us to where we are, all of a sudden fizzled out in the end? Why is it that not even one person has evolved to live forever, or even past 200 years? Wouldn’t it seem unlikely that evolution could get us so far, but would not have worked this little minor thing out yet? You continue to believe what you want, but don’t expect me to have the faith it takes to accept your theory of accidental elusion.

what4

you've never read a science book in your life, have you?

DF

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
Wouldn’t it seem unlikely that evolution could get us so far, but would not have worked this little minor thing out yet? You continue to believe what you want, but don’t expect me to have the faith it takes to accept your theory of accidental elusion.

No, I don't suppose you will ever understand or accept any of it. Your religion has lost souls. Mine has lost minds.

There is so very much that you do not understand about science that I am challenged to know where to begin. You have such an utter lack of knowledge concerning very basic fundamentals of the physical world. If you would have stayed awake in chemistry class, you would understand how very easy it is for chemicals to spontaneously combine to form new chemicals and gain complexity. If you had just opened the first few pages of a third grade astronomy guide, you would know just enough to see how utterly ignorant so many of your statements are.

I guess I know what it feels like when you religious folks come across one who is so very lost that there is no hope for their soul.

With all sincerity, if I were capable of it, I would pray for your lost mind as fervently as you might pray for my lost soul. Such profound ignorance and self-delusion is so very sad.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

quote:

Assuming you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, as all Christians have, then you my friend will be in heaven.

Would an evil believer be more likely to get to heaven than a moral, fine unbeliever?

DF

I would consider "evil believer" to be an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Good try.

The Bible says even the devils believe and tremble. A Christian has to do more than believe.

There are lots of evil believers. Always have been. Take Cardinal Roger mahoney, for example.

DF

Quote from GoFish:
If you would have stayed awake in chemistry class, you would understand how very easy it is for chemicals to spontaneously combine to form new chemicals and gain complexity.
________________________________________________________________________

What I hope to be my final answer:

Any 10 year old knows that chemicals will combine with other chemicals and the compounds they form will change in its properties and complexity. However, name any group of chemicals that have combined in complexity and came to life, and I will consider your theory. If you can’t prove that to me, then please don’t bother trying to impress me with all the other nonsense that is built around this impossibility. I’ve got better things to do than to spend my time discussing or reading science fiction when I can simply wait for the next Star Trek movie to come out. You can take all the raw materials you want and they will not come to life, no matter what chemicals you mix them with, what temperature you bring them to, or what catalyst you introduce into the reaction. It seems that most people are not looking for the truth, but rather they are just looking to prove what they already believe. I hope we can both agree on that issue and let things end with that.

NOPE, we won't.

The chemicals that combined to form life existed in primitive earth. Carbon, Iron, nitrogen, oxygen, calcium, you name it, the chemicals of life exist on earth.

Over a billion years, with gazillions of opportunities to combine, they eventually did. Chemists say it's pretty much inevitable, considering the circumstances.

Biology is reducible to chemistry. Why do you ignore this?

DF

quote:

Biology is reducible to chemistry. Why do you ignore this?

_______________________________________________

Again, back up your claim with proof. I ignore it because it is baloney, and you have given me no proof or evidence. Chemists are chemists, they are nothing more. In case you don't know it, Frakenstein was just a movie.

quote:

Originally posted by what4:
name any group of chemicals that have combined in complexity and came to life, and I will consider your theory. If you can’t prove that to me, then please don’t bother trying to impress me with all the other nonsense that is built around this impossibility.

You know what? I can't do that. I'm not smart enough to do that and you aren't equipped to understated it even if I could.

But I'll tell you this: (drum roll please . . . .) We don't know how it happened.

That's right, we don't know. Science doesn't have the answer. Yet. Hypothesis abound in scientific circles. The chances of the right types of chemicals coming together in the right mixture and forming self replicating molecules is astoundingly minimal. One Nobel PRize winning scientists put the odds of it happening at 1 chance in 10 to the 40,000th power (1 followed by 40,000 zeros).

In short, there is almost no chance that life would happen. Almost.

But give "Almost" an unimaginably long period of time -- a few thousands-million years, perhaps -- and "Almost" becomes probable.

The fact is this: You and I are here. Therefore it happened.

So, there. There is your proof.

Really,What4, science has come a long way since you slept through all your science classes a hundred years ago. We have gone from a wacky hypothesis that all animals evolved from lower life forms to discovering DNA to sequencing the entire human genome. Our understanding of how we got here is increasing at an accelerating pace. Science is getting closer and closer to fully understanding how we came to be and it excites me to think that we may have the answer before I power-down.

Before I became a full-blown atheist, I used to consider the thought that science is a means to understand the mind of God. There is still the the slightest possibility that science could find the signature of your God buried within the code. How cool would THAT be?

Too bad you can't be a part of that search.

quote:

Again, back up your claim with proof. I ignore it because it is baloney, and you have given me no proof or evidence.

Ever read "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan? Pulitzer Prize winner, it is. Read the chapter on how the chemicals of the early Earth combined to form amino acids. A similar environment can be duplicated in a laboratory. Good stuff.

DF

quote:

I would consider "evil believer" to be an oxymoron. There is no such thing. Good try.

Yes there is.

quote:

Originally posted by DeepFat:

Ever read "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan?

From cover to cover whe I was a youngun. It still has a prized spot on my bookshelf.

You ever read "A Brief History of Time"?

yes, although I'd be lying if I said I understand it in its entirety..... lol

DF

Cosmos is my favorite book. Loved the TV series, too. I read it when I'm between trashy thriller novels....... lol

DF

Quote:

Read the chapter on how the chemicals of the early Earth combined to form amino acids. A similar environment can be duplicated in a laboratory. Good stuff.

Quote:

Really,What4, science has come a long way since you slept through all your science classes a hundred years ago.


My reply:

I ask for proof or evidence of raw materials being made to come to life, and you point me to the ability we have of making amino acids from chemicals and to the progress of science. We have been able to make nitric, sulfuric, and phosphoric acid, and now we have progressed to being able to make amino acids. Give the man a hand that was able to make them. Give him a Pulitzer Prize! Now let him make a living organism. As impressive as man’s ability seems to you, and as complicated as an amino acid might be, it is still an impossible leap from acids to the simplest living organism. We can analyze the chemicals that make up a living organism, but name me any time we have come close to making a living organism from chemicals. If man cannot do the impossible, then why do you believe that a coincidental accident of nature can? Amino acids are a far cry from a living organism. I bet we could make sugar if we tried hard. You keep missing the point. Just because the same chemicals that make up an organism can be found in the natural environment, it doesn’t mean that the organism can be made from chemicals by mere coincidental chance. Even if the simplest dead organism had a chance of 1 in 1 billion with the billionth power of being formed by an accidental spontaneous combustion with all the right ingredients being together at just the right time and in just the right proportion, what are the odds of that simple organic matter then coming to life, and then surviving long enough to advance to the next stage? I don’t doubt that every chemical that makes up a human being can be found in the natural environment, because my most reliable source of information tells me that the human being was made from the earth. Our body can be analyzed to determine the elements and compounds that make it up. That means nothing. The body is impossible to be made by an accident of nature, and the more we learn about it the more illogical this premise becomes. But beyond that, tell me what elements makes up the soul or the spirit. What raw materials can produce the life that drives the body into action? Aren’t life and the body separate? What is life and where does it come from? The body is lifeless without the soul and spirit. The brain is of no use on its own, without the driving force of life behind it. Doesn’t a lifeless body have the same chemical makeup that a living body has? What chemical can restore life to a dead body?

We can analyze the material that makes up the building blocks used to make the pyramids in Egypt, yet why do we always assume that the pyramids were made by an intelligent being rather than existing by mere coincidental chance? How much more are the complicated makings of a simple one celled organism than that of a pyramid, never mind the mind blowing complicated makings of a human being? Can emotions, intelligence, and the sense of touch and sight be made from chemicals? Which is the most complicated… a computer or the human brain? Which would be easiest to happen by mere accident? The computer as we know it today is a much more advanced accomplishment than producing a simple amino acid, but there was no Pulitzer Prize given for that. Those who believe in the theory of evolution will applaud and award the simplest of findings, because their impossible leap of faith is going to take every ounce of help it can get. I know how much you want to believe in your theory. But I believe you should get real and face the facts. What you believe in is impossible beyond imagination.

Science may have come a long way, but those pursuing a course in life to prove their favorite theory will tend to be biased, and will overlook the obvious when it destroys their credibility. Logic is logic no matter who presents it. Logic that is built on an illogical premise will remain illogical no matter who presents it or no matter how many Pulitzer Prizes are given by others who share their same persuasion. Mankind will continue to learn and impress himself as time goes on. There will continue to be educated fools in our society, no matter how educated they become. Those who want to prove what they believe will gather all the evidence that helps their cause and will ignore all the rest. Those who desire to know the truth will accept it, even when it destroys their life’s work and personal ambition. The truth is not always easy to swallow. The educated and proud often have the most difficulty in swallowing it.