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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the Timesdaily News Forum, a discussion was begun titled, "Gay Ban Dishonors Military's Integrity" -- and our new Forum Friend, Unreligious, responds to the original poster by writing "Biblical scholars (you know, people who read it in the original languages, not mis-translations) says that God destroyed Sodom for rape and inhospitality. Kind of like the inhospitality you are displaying towards gay people."

My Friend, you are just as wrong as the person who began that discussion by posting, ]"We don't need any queers in this country...little own in our military: Why did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah?"

While I totally dislike the original post and believe his/her wording to be misguided and disgraceful -- I do agree that our leaders should not change the ban on homosexuals in the military. Why? Well, in the military, as in our police departments -- those on the front lines need to know and respect the ones who have their backs. Discipline is the backbone of any military unit. When our leaders insert this barrier between groups in the military -- discipline breaks down.

Yes, I was in the military. And, yes, like most in the military I went in as a 17 year old teenager. In Basic Training, or Boot Camp, or whatever the different branches call their initial military training -- the Drill Instructor is a god. His word is the law; no exceptions. The first thing the military instills in new recruits newly arrived at a training base is -- do not, in any way, make your Drill Instructor unhappy.

Given that kind of atmosphere -- and given a group of 60 scared teenagers -- this could be a breeding ground for disasters if the Drill Instructor happens to be gay. What do we have in this situation? We have 60 scared new teenage recruits living in the same training barracks with a person who is to be viewed as an inerrant god, not to be questioned. What happens if this god tells a recruit to come to his room tonight for late night training? The frightened recruit is powerless to say no. And, we all know what that late night training entails -- at least in the mind of this military appointed god.

Would you want your teenage son or daughter put into such a situation?

And, even after the initial Basic Training -- gays in a military unit can be very disruptive. Young military people have enough trouble with the gays who gather in a community surrounding a military base -- waiting for an opportunity to attempt a seduction upon the young men and women. Yes, I have experienced this also. When I went through Tech School training in Denver -- gays swarmed around the young military people like flies. We could not stand on the bus stop in the evening without gays in cars lining up to try and pick up unsuspecting young GIs.

And, yes, gays allowed in the military can become predatory. This I experienced also. I was stationed at Osan Air Base in Korea. This was a rather large base; so a person could walk to another side of the base and not be recognized. At that time, we lived in twenty men quonset huts and our toilet and showers were in a quonset hut across the street.

One evening I had worked late and went to take a shower. I was the only one in the shower quonset hut -- when suddenly I looked up and saw a guy I did not recognize staring at me. When he made his verbal approach -- I told him in no uncertain terms what I would do to him if he was still there when I got out of the shower. He disappeared in a flash. Was it because he was afraid of what this skinny teenage kid from Alabama could to to him physically? No. He was afraid because if he was caught, or reported, making homosexual advances toward another man -- he would be drummed out of the Air Force.

Today, if we remove the ban on gays in the military -- this restraint will be gone -- for the gays will have no fear of discovery and being kicked out of the military. In other words, it will be "open season" for all gay predators within our military units and bases. God help the poor, innocent young kids trapped by older gay predators.

Openly gay recognition in the military will be a very destructive force from within. And, our current administration, which is very anti-military, sees no problem with this.

But, Unreligious, to address your comment, "Biblical scholars (you know, people who read it in the original languages, not mistranslations) says that God destroyed Sodom for rape and inhospitality. Kind of like the inhospitality you are displaying towards gay people."

The only so called Bible Scholars who support this thinking are the Liberal Theology proponents who are trying to build support for gay and lesbian leaders in Christian churches. Yes, I have seen this advocated by lesbian pastors and other gay theologians -- but, this is truly an abortion of Biblical teaching -- a feeble attempt to rewrite the Bible to fit their worldly desires.

Homosexuality, the homosexual lifestyle, is Biblically a worldly lifestyle and is condemned in the Bible -- and there is absolutely no way to rewrite Genesis 19:4-5 to mean anything except homosexuality.

Genesis 19:4-5, "Before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, surrounded the house, both young and old, all the people from every quarter; and they called to Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them.'"

The men of the city wanted to have homosexual relations with the angels. And, when it says "the men of the city. . . all the people from every quarter" -- we are not talking about a few misfits -- but ALL THE MEN OF THE CITY.

And, it was not the hands of the angels the "men of the city" wanted to shake!

No, my Friend, there is no way Genesis 19 can be honestly translated except to mean homosexuality -- regardless of how gays and lesbians want to rewrite it to include their worldly lifestyle.

Sorry, my Friend -- but, no cigar -- not even if your name is Clinton.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Original Post

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The thing I see wrong in your assumption is that you are saying 'straight' drill instructors would not order a recruit of the opposite sex to come for night training.

I see no difference on the battle field between two homosexual or two heterosexual soldiers. You don't think that having women in the armed services didn't cause a new type of training?

A soldier is a soldier, sexual orientation does not come into the equation.
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Originally posted by b50m:
The thing I see wrong in your assumption is that you are saying 'straight' drill instructors would not order a recruit of the opposite sex to come for night training.

I see no difference on the battle field between two homosexual or two heterosexual soldiers. You don't think that having women in the armed services didn't cause a new type of training?

A soldier is a soldier, sexual orientation does not come into the equation.

WHEN AND WHERE DID YOU SERVE IN THE MILITARY?

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Ahh, I see. Only military personnel need respond. I guess being a Navy brat and having grandparents, father, and brother in service doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. This is the same type of discrimination my dad hated when blacks were first serving.

Tell you what Bill, if you have to be part of the military to answer this question, then you have to be Catholic to talk about their practices. Fair?

I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.
quote:
Originally posted by b50m:
Ahh, I see. Only military personnel need respond. I guess being a Navy brat and having grandparents, father, and brother in service doesn't qualify me to have an opinion. This is the same type of discrimination my dad hated when blacks were first serving.

Tell you what Bill, if you have to be part of the military to answer this question, then you have to be Catholic to talk about their practices. Fair? I repeat, a soldier is a soldier. Period.

Hi B50,

If you have never ridden a horse; how can you advise jockeys who race thoroughbreds? Sure, maybe your dad or brother rode horses -- but, what first-hand knowledge does this give YOU?

And, no, the ban on gays in the military is nowhere near like the discrimination against blacks in the military, or anywhere else. To compare the gays and their agenda to the plight of the black people of America is big slap in the face to our black brothers, sisters, and friends.

Do I have any first-hand knowledge of the Roman Catholic church? Well, I would say that twenty years in that church does give me a wee bit of first-hand knowledge.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Yes, gays should have the right to serve openly in the military. This all started because gays were once considered a security risk because of blackmail threats, etc. Attitudes have changed since then and those type of risks are almost unheard of today.

As far as Bill Gray's idiotic ranting, those things can easily occur between heterosexuals. People who serve our country and protect us should be respected and it should not matter who a person sleeps with.
Personally I feel that this decision belongs in the Military among Military personnel. If an overwhelming majority of folks, serving in the military vote or express that they do not wish openly gay people to serve then I feel they should not. It shouldn't be politicized and since I haven't served I will not yield my views one way or the other, with the exception of saying who I think should decide.

If you politically force something on the troops, when they feel overwhelmingly against it then you stand a chance of disenfranchisement of the troops. You also stand a chance that if people overwhelmingly oppose it then revenge could be exacted upon someone, thought to be homosexual, just because others feel it forced upon them.

There are many sides of this issue but the people most effected should have the most say, That's the only opinion I'll give on this subject.
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Originally posted by David L.:
Yes, gays should have the right to serve openly in the military. This all started because gays were once considered a security risk because of blackmail threats, etc. Attitudes have changed since then and those type of risks are almost unheard of today.

As far as Bill Gray's idiotic ranting, those things can easily occur between heterosexuals. People who serve our country and protect us should be respected and it should not matter who a person sleeps with.

Hi David,

No, David, the ban on gays in the military has little, if anything, to do with blackmail threats or national security in that sense. Yes, gays in sensitive offices such as high leadership, i.e., Congress, Senate, the Oval Office -- have always been seen as security risks -- and is still. But, for military people on the front line -- that is a moot point.

The big concern has to do with morale and discipline -- and it has to do with parents concerned about their teenage kids being put at the mercy of older gay predators while serving in the military.

You say the same thing could happen with heterosexuals. David, I have lived a few more years than you. And, I have had gay predators come after me many times -- both in the military and in civilian life. However, I have NEVER had a heterosexual man try to put the make on me -- not once. Am I doing something wrong?

David, since you have often stated your feeling about the gay lifestyle -- you have no credibility in such a discussion. Needless to say, no one doubts that you are a wee bit biased. And, yes, I am biased -- for I have personally experienced gay predators. And, I do not want to turn them loose with an "open season" license on our young kids in the military.

It is more than enough that our young men and women have to, in their teenage years, go into harm's way to protect our, yours and mine, way of life. So, let's not put that extra burden upon them of having to keep looking over their shoulders to ward off gay predators.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Ok.
Maybe this will make you feel better about having agreed with me earlier in a different place, Bill.

I don't care if the person that feels called to fight for this country is white, black, male, female, gay, straight tall, short or whatever.
if they are physically and mentally competent to stand and fight, who am i to say ' no, we don't want YOUR kind defending this country.

I recognize that there can be a lot of homophobia in the military, and that if this passes then there will be an outbreak of violence aganst members of the armed services who 'come out' publicly. It's their choice. If they are prepaired for the consequinces, then they should be able to take the action if they choose. I think that for a long time a lot of them will not choose to come out, because they know what could happen to them.

I Dunno. This could be a good thing, eventually, but i'm afraid at first it's just going to make for splashy headlines and lawsuits, and even more persecution of gays.

Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Whatever is or is not a sin is God's purview. I'll leave the judgement up to him.
Bill, I was talking about heterosexual men making advances on females.

Since you are not gay, you should have no say so in the discussion either.

If everyone in the military shared your opinion and derision of gays, then there might be a problem. Thankfully, the majority of people don't think like you do. Thank God for that!
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Originally posted by thenagel:
Sorry... but I'm against persecution and bigotry for any reason.

Hi Nagel,

I, too, am against persecution and bigotry of any kind. However, I am also against predators who will find a "happy hunting ground" among the young people new in the military.

And, there will be a morale problem caused by openly gay people flouting their new freedom.

Our military people do not need additional problems stacked on their backs by Liberal Politically Correct Politicians seeking votes.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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I got an E-Mail with a picture of the Mexicans out West Protesting and I would have shown the Picture but I didn't know how to, but one of them had a Sign that said "Give us free Healthcare, Jobs, no Taxes,house and Food, You owe us America, we will Shoot more Police in Arizona until we get Free." so it looks to me like that we have become a society that can just about do or say anything we want to.
Another newsflash for you Bill - all gays are not predators as you seem to think. And the notion that a gay person would join the military just to find sexual partners is ludicrous.

As for gays "flouting their new freedom", I honestly don't know what you mean by that statement or how that would be a morale problem.

I also think you have a problem with bigotry.
Gay Predators? What the??????

You are really losing ground fast here, Bill.
The very fact that you say you have fallen victim to "gay predators" more than once in military and civilian life is more than a little bit weird. Maybe you are really gay, and people are trying to help you "out". ?? just kidding.........
WHO cares what the sexual orientation is, if an individual is ready and able to fight for our country. Do you think they should be banned from the Police Departments too? Where will it end????? Do you want to ostracize gays from all positions in the public eye?
Come on, people are people. Who are you to judge this way??????
If I were in harms way, I don't think I'd be inclined to ask my rescuer his/her sexual orientation before accepting help.
Just because YOU don't agree with homosexuality, and state that it is sinful, let me say again, Bill, let he who has no sin cast the first stone...........
As for me, I'll be thankful for any service men/women that have the courage to fight for our freedom.
Bill, when his life was on the line daily from such dangers as unpolished boots or a bad gig line in the USAF -- aka the Hair Force -- in the early 60s or thereabouts, used to recoil at the sight of vile potential predators in the men's room at the bus station in Colorado Springs. Why he learned to hold it all the way to Denver!

Good thing he was never in the Navy and stationed at the Brooklyn Navy Yard -- all those manly men lounging in the facilities at Washington Square and the nightly gauntlet he would have to run to and from the Village!

Grow up, Billy-O. It ain't too late.
I still say when it comes to the Military and the people who protect our country they should have the overriding say. If they are against Homosexuals serving then even though a homosexual person can and should be able to serve openly political correctness or what we deem as we "should be free to do" should take a back seat. Have Homosexuals performed as heros in the military? I have no doubt they have and would continue to. Again the over riding factor to me is IF it would effect the bulk of our fighting folks then we should defer to their wishes and keep it as it is rather than pushing things on people because it's a politically hot potato.
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Do I have any first-hand knowledge of the Roman Catholic church? Well, I would say that twenty years in that church does give me a wee bit of first-hand knowledge.


No, not at all. First, you have stated you were not a Christian at the time. You never heard the Gospel at Mass, and you claim to be surrounded by people kissing statues.
So, no, Bill. You have no knowledge of the Catholic Church. You have a lot of misconceptions, and you were not open to receiving the Faith at the time. So, sorry, no cigar. If I were you, I don't know that I'd publicize how much time you spent in the Church. It kind of makes you look dumb to all of us who DO know what the Church is all about.
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If they are against Homosexuals serving then even though a homosexual person can and should be able to serve openly political correctness or what we deem as we "should be free to do" should take a back seat


I think, with all due respect, I disagree here. I don't think that political correctedness should trump a person's right to serve in the military. My feeling, is that in this very hostile time, anyone and everyone that is willing to serve, should be allowed, and THANKED for doing so. To heck with political correctness- These are dangerous times. If a gay man or woman is willing to lay down his life, who are we to say that he/she is not "good enough". ? Just my opinion....

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