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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion "Do You Care Whether The Religious Ideas You Believe In Are True Or Not?" begun by Nobluedog, our Forum Friend, Nagel, tells us, "See.. that's the interesting part. I have not, nor will I ever say another person's belief is wrong. I don't see any problem with Christianity being true -- as well as Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, and pretty much any other faith you can think of."

Basically what we have here is an extreme example of what I have described before as Liberal Theology. i.e., "I'm Christian -- but, I'm not sure what I believe about God; I don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God; I'm not really sure what I believe about Jesus Christ -- but, I'm a Christian. The Bible is just a book of allegories, a good guidebook; but, definitely not the literal Word of God."

When one decides to ignore the Bible or to rewrite the Bible to fit his own personal world views, his own worldly desires and worldly religions, i.e, allegorizes the Bible -- we have what Nagel has described. In Nagel's world he tells us that he has FAITH. However, the question remains: Faith in what or who? Nagel says he is seeking -- seeking what, a world view designed around his own desires and pleasures?

Nagel says that God has revealed Himself to be the different gods of the many world religions.

Yet, in Isaiah 45:21, God declares through the prophet Isaiah, "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me."

And, in Isaiah 45:22, God tells us, "Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other."

In Exodus 20:1-6 we read, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."


Has God shown Himself to be Allah, Krishna, or any of the millions of gods in the world religions? Absolutely not!

Who is right -- Nagel or God?

Nagel tells us, "So.. Shiva... Vishnu.. Krishna.. Allah.. Jehovah.. Yahweh.. it's all the same entity, different aspects of the One God. To me, for me, God sent his son, Jesus, to earth. For Ahmed, in Mecca, He sent Mohammed to be his prophet."

Maybe in a New Age religion. But, even in most Liberal Christian Religions they will dispute this claim. Or they should.

And, when Nagel refers to our Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, as "Jebus" -- once again I have to ask him -- is this where your FAITH lies -- in someone you refer to as "Jebus."

And, of course, our good old resident atheist, Deep, will always cheer on anyone who claims to be Christian -- yet, describes his faith in this manner. What more could a Dawkins atheist ask -- than a person who will put on a Christian hat and then defame God?

And, when VP jumps on Nagel's bandwagon with, "That was possibly the best post I've ever read. I never really thought about God revealing Himself to people in different ways (Allah, Yahweh), etc." -- I do have to wonder what they are teaching in the Roman Catholic churches these days.

In the twenty years I spent attending the Roman Catholic church I never heard any teachings which would support the statement, "So.. Shiva... Vishnu.. Krishna.. Allah.. Jehovah.. Yahweh.. it's all the same entity, different aspects of the One God. To me, for me, God sent his son, Jesus, to earth. for Ahmed in Mecca, He sent Mohammed to be his prophet."

VP, has the Roman Catholic church changed that much? Or, are you getting your catechism lessons and theology lessons from a different source?

My Friends, anyone can say, "Yes, I'm a Christian!" Until I was fifty years old, when asked the question, I would quickly affirm, "Yes, I am a Christian!" Why? Because I wanted to fit in. And, after all, I did attend the Nazarene, Baptist, and Methodist churches while growing up in Sheffield.

I have attended Roman Catholic, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Crystal Cathedral (a Reform Church), and a few others over the years, including a couple of non-denominational churches. Yes, before I was a Christian, I was in and out of more churches than you have flies at a Sunday picnic.

I believed in God and Jesus Christ. I believed the Bible was the Word of God. I was born and raised in the "belt buckle" of the Bible Belt -- North Alabama. How could anyone be more Christian than me?

No, the better question would have been: How could anyone have been less of a Christian than I was then? For, I had been given the Gospel -- but, I obviously had not listened. I listened just enough to believe in God. But, hey, I was young; I still had time AFTER I had my fun first. That is the sad mistake so many lost souls have made -- believing, "I will have time later." But, so often -- "later" happens before we know it. Past your next breath, you have no guarantees.

But, even as a young man -- as a back up, just in case I was wrong -- I felt a strong need to find a church which would tell me that hell does not exist. And, I found a chaplain at Bergstrom Air Force Base in Austin, Texas -- a chaplain from a large denominational church -- who assured me, guaranteed me, that hell is only a myth. Oh, praise the Lord! Now, I could live as I liked and not have to worry about any consequences. Time for wine, women, and song -- let's party!

And, this is what so many folks are looking for -- a Christian life, a Christian church, which will not hold them accountable to God.

That is the reason for the phenomenal growth of the "Feel Good" churches. These are the churches which will NEVER teach about hell, seldom mention Satan -- and will tell you that if you live a "good life" and do "good deeds" -- that will earn you a ticket into heaven.

That is why there are churches like the one in the Mid-West who did not have their Biblical Beliefs posted on their web site. And, when I sent an e-mail asking why they do not post their Biblical Beliefs -- they replied, "We do not post our Biblical Beliefs because we do not want to offend anyone."

Can you really believe a Christian church will not post its Biblical Beliefs -- for fear of offending someone? What do they teach in their sermons -- that God is love and everyone will be saved? That is Universalism -- and is a sure ticket on the Express Train to hell.

My Friends, anyone or any church who will tell you this -- is only greasing the slippery slope into hell for many, many misled souls.

There is only ONE GOD (Isaiah 45:22); and He is the God of the Bible; the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There is ONLY ONE WAY to God and that is through His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). We are saved, by the grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ (not Jebus) -- plus NOTHING else (Ephesians 2:8-9).

And, when we do become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ -- we are indwelt, sealed, by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). He takes up residence in us -- and can never be evicted and will never sublet to any other spirits.

My Friends, when this happens for us -- we do not hide it out of fear of offending someone. No! We shout it from the roof tops.

We do as He tells us in Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15, and Acts 1:8 -- We Go, be His witnesses -- in all the world. We do not hide under the bed. We take His Gospel to the world!

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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cool your britches, Bill. I am simply saying that I agree that God reveals Himself to people in different ways.
Did I mention the Mohammed Prophet? No. Am I a liberal theologist? No.
But I graciously receive any ideas, and don't "poopoo" them just because their view is different. In fact, I can usually say "thank you" for broadening my mind.
Nagels post was excellent because he really shared honest feelings about faith, religion and life in general. He showed love to all his brothers- in every religion.
I am not a liberal theologist. A liberal theologist would say, "No, Jesus didn't really mean that that "Not everyone who says to me Lord, shall enter the gates of Heaven".
Feel good theology, in my opinion, hangs on that SINGLE scripture that says "For if you believe and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior you shall have eternal life..." (paraphrasing for sake of time).
Feel good "once saved" theology cannot answer questions about accountability, penance or falling from grace. Feel good theology also doesn't like to see their sins on the Cross- ie the Crucifix. Catholics really put a lot of importance on the Crucifix, as a reminder that He was put on that cross because of OUR sinfulness.
Not only that, but they also feel that "works based theology" means some form of manual labor. When in fact, what the Catholic Church teaches, is that certain things bring about graces (GIFTS and BLESSINGS FROM GOD) to keep us closer in His frienship. So, I am not "working" my way into Heaven, but I will follow Jesus' example and give to the poor, shelter the homeless, give food to the hungry.etc.
These are "works" that you speak so often of.
Remember, Bill, Jesus said "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, is what you do unto me".
So it seems that Jesus DOES care what we **DO** here on earth.
The God I know is slow to anger, rich in kindness, but also does have certain "ground rules" that may be perceived as "works".
Anyway, I believe in ONE GOD, begotten not made, and in His Son Jesus Christ who sits at His Right Hand. ANd the Holy Spirit together, creating the ONE GOD in 3 persons.
If God is known to others in different languages, and revealed in different ways, WHO AM I to dispute that?
I think, Bill, you may have the "sola scriptura" down, but by many ways, I would consider you liberal in your theology, because you hang your hat on a couple of verses, and don't seem to respect others views.
Sola Scriptura is not the way it started. It started by ORAL TRADITION. Words passed down through word of mouth.
YOU came along late in the game, and took out or refuted the Tradition part. So, in a way, you are more liberal, as your views departed from the oldest ways of Jesus and Apostolic Tradition. When did the Fundamentalist/Sola Scriptura movement begin?
At what point did your movement depart from the original Church?
Just wondering......
And no ill-will intended. But hopefully you will see that when you call a Catholic, or other Apostolic Church believer a "liberal theologist", you might take into consideratino that YOU detoured from us, through the Protestant movement.
Just saying.....
AND I have NOTHING against Protestants, of course, just saying- the timeline of the Church clearly shows when the schizms, breaks and splits occurred.
Fact is fact.
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
cool your britches, Bill. I am simply saying that I agree that God reveals Himself to people in different ways. Did I mention the Mohammed Prophet? No. Am I a liberal theologist? No.
But I graciously receive any ideas, and don't "poopoo" them just because their view is different. In fact, I can usually say "thank you" for broadening my mind.

Hi VP,

In other words, it matters little to you what the Bible tells us -- you would rather believe what Nagel tells us -- when he obviously hasn't dusted his Bible in years -- if ever.

You did write, "That was possibly the best post I've ever read. I never really thought about God revealing Himself to people in different ways (Allah, Yahweh), etc."

From this, I have to assume that you believe Allah and God to be the same; which would then lead to Nagel's other statement about Mohammed.

My Friend, either you believe that God is right or you believe that Nagel is right. Both cannot be -- and, I will put my money on God. How about you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi to my Forum Friends,


Hiiii Biiiill.

we're all in our places, with bright shining faces.!
quote:


In the discussion "Do You Care Whether The Religious Ideas You Believe In Are True Or Not?" begun by Nobluedog, our Forum Friend, Nagel, tells us, "See.. that's the interesting part. I have not, nor will I ever say another person's belief is wrong. I don't see any problem with Christianity being true -- as well as Hinduism, Taoism, Islam, and pretty much any other faith you can think of."


Yup. that's what i said.

quote:


Basically what we have here is an extreme example of what I have described before as Liberal Theology. i.e., "I'm Christian -- but, I'm not sure what I believe about God; I don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God; I'm not really sure what I believe about Jesus Christ -- but, I'm a Christian. The Bible is just a book of allegories, a good guidebook; but, definitely not the literal Word of God."


that's not quite what i said.
so let me clarify.
i try to be a christian, but i know that i fail - i ask forgivness for the failure, and keep on trying.
i know exactly what i 'believe' about God, but it doesn't stop me from seeking further truth, because i understand that i am failable and that i might not be right. so i keep looking in hopes of getting it right.
i know exactly what i believe about Christ, but, etc etc ( read the line above and apply it to this one)
the last part you did get right. exactly right.

quote:

When one decides to ignore the Bible or to rewrite the Bible to fit his own personal world views, his own worldly desires and worldly religions, i.e, allegorizes the Bible -- we have what Nagel has described. In Nagel's world he tells us that he has FAITH. However, the question remains: Faith in what or who? Nagel says he is seeking -- seeking what, a world view designed around his own desires and pleasures?



No, Billy joe bob gene said i was seeking.
however, i'll accept it, because it's the truth. i Believe i know the situation, but since i know i might be wrong, i continue to seek the truth. Like Richard Rahl, I seek the truth through a myriad of lies and deceptions.
and to your remaining question, the answer remains - Faith in our lord god and his son Jesus.
My desires and pleasures have nothing to do with it.
my desires? all filled. i have a wonderful wife and wonderful children. i need nothing more on this earth than that. i don't need or even want gobs of money or fancy cars or whatever.. i HAVE my deepest desire and fondest wish. everything else is just fluff and iceing.

quote:


Nagel says that God has revealed Himself to be the different gods of the many world religions.


no i didn't. i said i thought it was possible. (remember the key word.. ' possible' ?)

quote:

Yet, in Isaiah 45:21, God declares through the prophet Isaiah, "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me."

And, in Isaiah 45:22, God tells us, "Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other."

In Exodus 20:1-6 we read, "Then God spoke all these words, saying, 'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments."


Has God shown Himself to be Allah, Krishna, or any of the millions of gods in the world religions? Absolutely not!



has he shown himself Not to be?
Yes, he is the God of the bible ( if you accept the bible).... or if you don't for that matter.
He is also the god of the Torah and the Qua'ran and he is both Shiva and Brahma.
Many books, Many faiths, many names. ONE god.

quote:

"Turn to Me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other."
And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me
You shall have no other gods before Me.



i didn't say there was another God. i said that there was One True God, and that he was the same God for all religions, even if they call him by another name.
so all of your scripture here does nothign to prove me wrong. In fact, your quotes add a little weight to my point, because i am agreeing with scripture.. that there is only one Lord God
i am saying that there is ONE god. One. and he is the god of the whole world, and different people ofthe world call Him by different names. To christians he sent Jesus, to the Muslim He sent Mohammad.
One God to rule them all, One God to find them, One God to Bring them all, etc etc.. ( sorry for the geeky Tolkein referance)

(also.. i said this idea was possible. i didn't say i really believed it. i think it IS possible, but i'm undecided about the truth of it. i have always found it interesting that when someone mentions a speculation or pondering, Bill lands on them like they were claiming it as absoloute truth. Bill is all or nothing - he has no middle gears.)

quote:

Who is right -- Nagel or God?


except the real question here is, who's right, me or Bill?
because on this topic i haven't questioned god's word at all, just bill's interpretation of it.
quote:


Nagel tells us, "So.. Shiva... Vishnu.. Krishna.. Allah.. Jehovah.. Yahweh.. it's all the same entity, different aspects of the One God. To me, for me, God sent his son, Jesus, to earth. For Ahmed, in Mecca, He sent Mohammed to be his prophet."

Maybe in a New Age religion. But, even in most Liberal Christian Religions they will dispute this claim. Or they should.


Why should they?
Don't you believe there is only one true God?
so what's the problem?
and as to New Age Religion i say Pff.. i don't have a religion.
i have faith. because i have faith, i don't need religion.

quote:


And, when Nagel refers to our Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, as "Jebus" -- once again I have to ask him -- is this where your FAITH lies -- in someone you refer to as "Jebus."



i did. i did it as a cheap shot to the over zealous people... like you... who spend all day talking about christ and annoying all those around them.
" Jesus came to me and told me it was tiem to wash my hair." and " Oh the Lord Jesus sure did save me a lot of money at the wal marts today. he had them put aigs on sale."
(i kid you not. that last one i have acctually heard in person. i laughed so hard i almost choked on my soda)

i meant no disrespect to Christ - and what's more, HE knows this. He know my heart, so he doesn't require explination. you don't know my heart, and don't deserve one.
in other words, i was making fun of you, not Christ.

quote:


My Friends, anyone can say, "Yes, I'm a Christian!" Until I was fifty years old, when asked the question, I would quickly affirm, "Yes, I am a Christian!" Why? Because I wanted to fit in. And, after all, I did attend the Nazarene, Baptist, and Methodist churches while growing up in Sheffield.



ROFL.. Fit In? ME? ROFL.
oddly enough, Bill, i've never said i was a christian.
ever.
first i denied it, because i wasn't, and didn't believe. then i said no becuase i wasn't sure. now i DO believe, and i still won't claim the title christian because i'm afraid people would lump me in with Fundies like you. when people ask if i am a christian, i answer simply 'i believe in Jesus and in his Father.' or i answer 'well, i try, but of course none of us ever get it right, but it doesn't stop us from trying our best.' the answer depends on the setting and the person asking.
the root of it is, it's none of their bloody business. I no longer deny Jesus, i just deny that it's any one elses business. it's between He and I. end of list.

quote:


There is only ONE GOD (Isaiah 45:22); and He is the God of the Bible; the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There is ONLY ONE WAY to God and that is through His Son, Jesus Christ (John 14:6). We are saved, by the grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ (not Jebus) -- plus NOTHING else (Ephesians 2:8-9).


WHOLE lot of irrelevant preaching snipped to get back to the topic at hand. i don't care how awsome and holy you are bill, stay on topic please.

Yes! You Get It! The is only ONE GOD!
that's what i have been saying the whole time! Praise the lord and pass the biscuits, Bill Understands!

(just kidding.. of course he doesn't.)

quote:

There is only ONE GOD (Isaiah 45:22); and He is the God of the Bible; the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

And Ishmael and Mohammad and Confuscious and ....

quote:

And, when we do become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ -- we are indwelt, sealed, by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). He takes up residence in us -- and can never be evicted and will never sublet to any other spirits.

My Friends, when this happens for us -- we do not hide it out of fear of offending someone. No! We shout it from the roof tops.


yeah.. i'm ALWAYS worried i'll offend someone. it keeps me awake at night, the fear that something i say will hurt someones feelings.
/smirk
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
I have NOTHING against Protestants, of course, just saying - the timeline of the Church clearly shows when the schisms, breaks and splits occurred. Fact is fact.

Hi VP,

Yes, the time line is very clear. On the Day of Pentecost, fifty days after His resurrection, ten days after Jesus Christ's ascension into heaven -- the Holy Spirit came upon the 120 disciples waiting and praying in the Upper Room and they indwelt them. That was the beginning of the Christian church.

Then Peter and the other apostles went out and preached to the people in the street and 3000 became believers. The Christian church began to grow. Shortly after that, another 5000 confessed faith in Jesus Christ and became part of the Christian church, the body of believers.

Then, the apostles, including the apostle Paul, began to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and the church began to grow and spread. Eventually, the church spread to Rome -- yet, it was still the Christian church.

And, how did they worship? No. No liturgical services, no priests, no pope, no robes, and no fancy garments -- no, just plain folks gathering in fellowship to worship our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are told in Acts 2:42, "They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." Yes, just like in a good old Baptist Bible study -- fellowship, prayer, and study of God's Word, or, in their case then, sharing the teachings Jesus Christ had given them over the previous three years -- and sharing their memories of Him.

No, He was not still hanging on the cross -- He had ascended into heaven, where He is today sitting at the right hand of God the Father -- the ONLY MEDIATOR between man and God.

For the next three hundred years, the Christian church, the body of believers, went though many periods of persecution by the Roman Emperors. Then, in 312 AD, Emperor Constantine had a battle field conversion to Christianity (his mother, being Greek, was already a Christian) and mandated that the Roman Empire would be a Christian empire.

Of course, he found resistance from the many pagan worshipers in his empire -- so, to placate them and to encourage them to come to his Christian church to worship -- he allowed them to bring their pagan statues and idols with them. Mother/infant worship had been followed in the different pagan religions since the days of Nimrod in Babylon.

When Nimrod died, his wife, Semiramis, fearful of losing her queen power -- declared her infant son to be the reincarnation of Nimrod -- and established herself and her infant son as god and goddess. When the nations were dispersed, this mother/child worship also migrated into the many nations.

And, in Rome, the pagans had their temple and their mother/child worship. So, to bring them into his Christian church in Rome -- Constantine allowed them to bring in their mother/child statues, renamed them Mary and Jesus -- and, viola! -- the beginning of what later became Mariology, the worship of Mary. Hundreds of years later, the worship of Mary was made official by Rome.

So, VP, you are right. Follow the time line and you will find a gap of about three hundred years between the beginning of the Christian church and the birth of the Roman Catholic church. Fast forward to 1517 and Martin Luther posted his Ninety-Five Theses initiating the Reformation.

In 1531 King Henry VIII fired the Pope in England, and declared himself to be the church head in England. Although Henry declared himself to be the English version of the Pope; he changed very little else about the Church of England. Basically, the Church of England was the same as the Roman Catholic -- but, King Henry was the head, not the Pope.

When Henry died, his young son, Edward became king in name only -- while the Anglican Archbishop actually ran the country. Upon Edwards early death, Mary became the queen and restored Roman Catholicism in England. After Mary, her half sister, Elizabeth became queen and pulled away from Roman Catholicism again and restored the Church of England, the Anglican church, which is the mother church for the American Episcopalian church.

In the middle of all this, those who did not want a king nor a pope ruling them, i.e, the Baptists, Methodists, Anabaptists, Separatists, Pilgrims, etc., tiring of persecution under the rule of the Church of England -- migrated to America.

In 1620, the Pilgrims landed at what would later be called Plymouth Rock (after the town of Plymouth, England, where the company which sponsored their travel to America was located). Before landing at Plymouth Rock, they gathered and wrote the Mayflower Compact declaring themselves Christians and this new venture to be for the spreading of the Christian faith and for the glory of God.

This was the first of our American founding documents -- followed by the Declaration of Independence and later, the Constitution -- all based upon Biblical principals of Christian self government.

So, VP, my Friend, you are right -- follow the time line and you will see that Roman Catholicism was merely a short side trip for the Christian church and the Christian faith we have today.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
cool your britches, Bill. I am simply saying that I agree that God reveals Himself to people in different ways. Did I mention the Mohammed Prophet? No. Am I a liberal theologist? No.
But I graciously receive any ideas, and don't "poopoo" them just because their view is different. In fact, I can usually say "thank you" for broadening my mind.

Hi VP,

In other words, it matters little to you what the Bible tells us -- you would rather believe what Nagel tells us -- when he obviously hasn't dusted his Bible in years -- if ever.



one more mistaken assumption on your part, Bill.
my bible is sitting beside my monitor. i use it often.

quote:


You did write, "That was possibly the best post I've ever read. I never really thought about God revealing Himself to people in different ways (Allah, Yahweh), etc."

From this, I have to assume that you believe Allah and God to be the same; which would then lead to Nagel's other statement about Mohammed.

one more mistaken assumption, Bill. VP says she hadn't thought about it. i don't see anythign there that mentions her agreeing with me. it means' hey.. that's an interesting idea, i never thought about that.
it does NOT mean, " omg, you're right!"
quote:

My Friend, either you believe that God is right or you believe that Nagel is right. Both cannot be -- and, I will put my money on God. How about you?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,



here's one for ya bill...

let's do it this way.

i'll say this-

there is only one god. there is no other god.
( which is what i've said from the first minute i wrote that original post)

Now.. prove me wrong. you can even use the bible this time.

then, for the second part
Prove that the God in the bible isn't Shiva, or krishna or Allah.

ya know.. i'm genuinely a little confused why you are so venomous about this idea.. .because it really does prove that you are absoloutly correct... there is only one god.
is the reason you have a problem with it because if it were to be right, then it means that all those heathen mooslams and hintdos and the other savages like that aren't going to burn in hell?
is your real problem here the idea that the people you designate 'the wicked' won't be punished like you think they should be?
Poor Bill.. if i'm right it means he won't get to cast his gleeful gaze down upon the infidels as they burn and rot.
I am at a crossroads here. On the one hand, I think the lunatic Gray has a point, on the other hand I'm reluctant to agree with anything he says.

His point is, that each religion certifies that it is the True Religion. Jesus said "I am the way", not one way. Islam says "Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his only prophet".

They can't all be right. At most, only one can be. For a religious person to say they're all valid is to deny his own religion. If one says only his religion is right is dubious in the extreme, since people made up god and his attendant orders.

Gray's right: Choose one and defend it, or regard them all with skepticism. They are all contradictory and cannot all be right, this is simple logic. So simple, even Gray gets it.

So, his, and your, work is laid out for you. Tell me why your religion is right, and everyone's else is wrong.
BJBG, there is only ONE GOD. On this we all agree. He may reveal Himself to people in different ways. For example, I find Him in the Holy Eucharist. Others do not. I put a strong emphasis on ORAL TRADITION, because I firmly believe that, before Scripture was written, that was the way the teachings of Jesus Christ were upheld.
You're right about one thing- everyone thinks "their" religion is the right one. That is exactly why they are faithful to the doctrines of said religion. I would suggest focusing on Faith on the ONE FATHER, One God, and see what He tells you, and how He reveals and speaks to you. Smiler
I don't believe in the Prophet Mohammed, and the Islamic religion- but I don't dispute anyone's faith in it, either. I respect anyone's faith, and believe that God will be merciful to those who have not been taught the ways of His Son. You have a lot to think about. Sometimes, it's just best to not ask God what He wants for you, but to listen...and He may reveal Himself to you through someone's words, Scripture, or a random act of mercy- yours or someone else's. It's all a mystery, and we just do the best we can, and put our faith in God, as we have been taught, as we hold Him in our hearts, and however seems "right" to us.
I wish you well.
quote:
Then, the apostles, including the apostle Paul, began to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and the church began to grow and spread. Eventually, the church spread to Rome -- yet, it was still the Christian church.


Correct. The original church, Bill. In Rome. As it remains today.
The split did not begin at Pentecost:

1517 - The Protestant Reformation begins; Martin Luther nails his "95 Theses" against the Catholic practice of selling indulgences, on the church door at Wittenberg

1520 - Field of Cloth of Gold: Francois I of France meets Henry VIII but fails to gain his support against Holy Roman Emperor, Charles V
1521 - Henry VIII receives the title "Defender of the Faith" from Pope Leo X for his opposition to Luther

1529 - Henry VIII dismisses Lord Chancellor Thomas Wolsey for failing to obtain the Pope's consent to his divorce from Catherine of Aragon; Sir Thomas More appointed Lord Chancellor; Henry VIII summons the "Reformation Parliament" and begins to cut the ties with the Church of Rome

Read a History book.
How bout lets just get down to nuts and bolts...nobody really knows about God or Jesus....we have people who study, and prognosticate...but we won't know until we pass, everything else is discussion, finger-pointing, name-calling....Believe what gets you through this miserable world...put your faith in whatever seems to make the most sense to you...
quote:
BJBG, there is only ONE GOD.

My dear vp,

There are many gods. There have been thousands of gods among people exactly as intelligent as us.

Quetzalcoatl is exactly as valid as Yahweh, and he has those who believe in him. But he's not the same god. A little closer to home, the god of the Jews is the vindictive shbt of the Old Testament. At least the Jews don't dwell on the threat of Hell that the New Testament god so mercifully Roll Eyes threatens us with.

It's absurd to think that the various religions are all compatible. If you think that, you haven't made even the most cursory study of them.

The most rudimentary analysis of the truth of things insists that, at most, only one religion is true. And if you think it's yours, you have lots of work to do.


KK
No, BJBG, I don't believe all religions are compatible. And I'm not the smartest kid around, but I do know my faith, and I do believe that most Christian faiths are compatible- to a certain extent.
I believe in ONE GOD.Word made flesh, in Jesus Christ. Re-read my post- i am not saying all religions are compatible. I am saying that God reveals Himself to people in different ways.
I do have a lot of work to do, as we all do. I struggle on a daily basis.Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Then, the apostles, including the apostle Paul, began to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- and the church began to grow and spread. Eventually, the church spread to Rome -- yet, it was still the Christian church.

Correct. The original church, Bill. In Rome. As it remains today. The split did not begin at Pentecost:

Hi VP,

The church in Rome initially was just the Christian church. It did not become the Roman Catholic church until Constantine. One the Day of Pentecost, there was no split. There was only the Christian church, no denominations, no popes, no cardinals, no fancy robes -- just the plain folks, i.e., the apostles and the disciples, all sharing the Word of God, all sharing fellowship, breaking bread and praying together. It was one body of Christ, Christian believers.

Then, Constantine, to fill his church told the pagans, "Come on in, folks, and bring all your idols, statues, and gods. We'll just give them Christian names and all will be well."

Today, Nagel is saying, "All roads lead to God!"

And, you are cheering him on, "Yes, yes, I agree with you!"

And, just as Constantine polluted the Christian faith -- folks like Nagel are still trying to do it when he tells us, "All beliefs can worship together." Wrong!

God does not share the podium with anyone, no other gods. So, you worship Him -- or you worship the gods of the world religions. But, you cannot do both.

Of course, VP, I know you cannot respond to this -- for you have given your word that you will put me on Ignore.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
quote:
BJBG, there is only ONE GOD.

My dear vp,

There are many gods. There have been thousands of gods among people exactly as intelligent as us. KK

Hi Deep,

Actually, there are MILLIONS of gods. Hey, Hindus alone have millions. Then, throw in all the other world religions -- and, wow, overflowing with gods.

However, there IS only one GOD!

So, you play with your millions -- and we will worship our ONE.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
I am at a crossroads here. On the one hand, I think the lunatic Gray has a point, on the other hand I'm reluctant to agree with anything he says.

His point is, that each religion certifies that it is the True Religion. Jesus said "I am the way", not one way. Islam says "Allah is the only god and Muhammad is his only prophet".

They can't all be right. At most, only one can be. For a religious person to say they're all valid is to deny his own religion. If one says only his religion is right is dubious in the extreme, since people made up god and his attendant orders.

Gray's right: Choose one and defend it, or regard them all with skepticism. They are all contradictory and cannot all be right, this is simple logic. So simple, even Gray gets it.

So, his, and your, work is laid out for you. Tell me why your religion is right, and everyone's else is wrong.


Meh - it was only an exersize in thought, not an advocation of truth. i think VPLee got that part of it.
call it a big " what if" project.
i didn't, and don't, say that the idea was anything more than a ' posibility'.

i'm pretty sure i've used that word often during this topic.

but to follow along that line of possibility -

of course Jesus wouldn't say " i am one of the ways" to each of us. that pretty much defeats the purpose of the whole idea - to offer diffferent people of different capaibilities a path to heaven.

there are 6, almost 7 BILLION people on this earth. the idea that all but 1/6 of them will suffer in eternal darnation (because ****ation is blocked on this forum) is a little more than i can cope with.

consider - we, as christian are taught
god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-beneveloent.
he sees all, he knows all, and is benevelant to all.
ok, fine, then why are 5/6's of the world going to burn in hell? what's benevolent about that?

so i came up wiht this little idea that we ALL have a chance, as long as we believe, of salvation.

maybe we believe in Shiva, and cows are sacred, for some reason. maybe we believe in christ, and sundays are sacred, for some reason.
etc etc

maybe i believe that God would give us every possible chance to be saved, and not send the majority of the world straight to hell.

it's just an idea, and belief in Quetzalcoatl would be just as valid as belief in Jehovah.

Yes.. there is some contridiction.. jesus says i am THE way. Mohammad mentions that his is the only path to paradise.

on one hand, they cancel each other out.
on the other hand, if you consider them both.. or all.. to be right, it's all just a matter of perspective.
to someone raised baptist, the muslims are screwed. to someone raised muslim, the epicopalians are screwed.

why must it be one or the other?
why wouldn't God, the all seeing, all knowing, super kind God Almighty want to give as many people as possible a chance to find a way to heaven?
if one path doesn't work for them, maybe another would?
is it a bad thing to consider the possibility that HE doesn't want us to spend eternity in the proverbial lake of fire?

the posibility i bring up offers a way for Him to truly be Omni-benevolent.

the path that bill offers makes him a hateful, spiteful, petty SoB.

take your pick.

again, i brought all of this up only as a possibility... somethign to think about... an idea.. nothing definitive.

make of it what you will.
quote:
Meh - it was only an exersize in thought, not an advocation of truth. i think VPLee got that part of it.


I did! Thanks! It's never a bad thing to 'think', and try and look at the world from other viewpoints. In fact, I think sometimes, it can make one a more openminded and empathetic individual........Veep Smiler
quote:
call it a big " what if" project.

OK. It's a big "what if" project.

A long time ago, I played "what if" myself, once. I asked myself "what if the gods are just things we people made up? What would the world look like then"?

And it would look exactly as it does.

Then I asked myself "what if there really is a god? Why doesn't he simply show himself? Why doesn't he settle the issue of himself once and for all? (Don't say Jesus did that, it's absurd to even think.)"

And the answer became clear. There is no god. The obviousness of it was an eye-opener.

What if?

Imagine.


TR
quote:
Originally posted by Billy Joe Bob Gene:
quote:
call it a big " what if" project.

OK. It's a big "what if" project.

A long time ago, I played "what if" myself, once. I asked myself "what if the gods are just things we people made up? What would the world look like then"?

And it would look exactly as it does.

Then I asked myself "what if there really is a god? Why doesn't he simply show himself? Why doesn't he settle the issue of himself once and for all? (Don't say Jesus did that, it's absurd to even think.)"

And the answer became clear. There is no god. The obviousness of it was an eye-opener.

What if?

Imagine.


TR


LOL.. no.. no i'd not say Jesus did that. that'd be like bill trying to prove the bible is the truth because it says it is lol

A speculative answer to why God doesn't just show himself -

Because that would be proof.
He doesn't work on Proof. he works on faith.
it means more when someone believes in you when they don't have any hard concrete reason to.

which means more - someone cheering you on at soemthing at an event/activity when you aren't convinced you cna pull it off? they offer support and encouragment because they believe you can do it, because they believe in you.

or when someone is cheering you on at something you've done hundreds of times, and both you and they know you can do it with your eyes closed.

to me, the faith in the face of uncertainty means more to me, when they believe in me whe nthey don't have to, when they don't know for sure i can get it done, but they know me and believe in me anyway.

He wants us to believe in him, without proof.
he wants Faith.

Just my take on it.
Hi Nagel,

You tell us, "i try to be a christian, but i know that i fail - i ask forgiveness for the failure, and keep on trying. i know exactly what i 'believe' about God, but it doesn't stop me from seeking further truth, because i understand that i am fallible and that i might not be right. so i keep looking in hopes of getting it right. i know exactly what i believe about Christ, but, etc etc (read the line above and apply it to this one) the last part you did get right. exactly right."

So, you are telling us, "Yes, I believe in God -- but, I want to hedge my bet just in case He isn't really there. I want to look for other deities -- just in case."

He tells us clearly, in the Bible, and in all of nature and the creation, that He is God, the one and only God. Yet, you will make your bed with our atheist Friends -- just in case. Good luck!

By the way, on your keyboard -- that big wide key just to the left of your "Z" key and the one to the right of your "?" key -- is the Shift key and it does wonders for your typing. And, if you like -- I can recommend a free download which will give you Spell Check in your browser.

Then, you tell me, "No, Billy joe bob gene said i was seeking. however, i'll accept it, because it's the truth. i Believe i know the situation, but since i know i might be wrong, i continue to seek the truth. Like Richard Rahl, I seek the truth through a myriad of lies and deceptions. and to your remaining question, the answer remains - Faith in our lord god and his son Jesus.

My desires and pleasures have nothing to do with it. my desires? all filled. i have a wonderful wife and wonderful children. i need nothing more on this earth than that. i don't need or even want gobs of money or fancy cars or whatever.. i HAVE my deepest desire and fondest wish. everything else is just fluff and icing."


Like you, I am fulfilled with the blessings God has given me in my family; especially my five grandchildren. But, the greatest blessing -- above all the rest -- is knowing the everyone in my family HAS eternal life, eternal security, in Jesus Christ. All of my children and all of my grandchildren who are old enough to understand -- have believed and received Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

And, since my grandchildren are all being raised in a Christian home -- I have no worry about the younger ones following the same path as their older siblings.

This is a greater blessing than all the wealth of the world, health, or anything else.

Nagel, you say that God has blessed you with a wonderful family. Have YOU assured their eternal security by bringing them to Jesus Christ?

Jesus tells us, in Luke 18:16, "But Jesus called them to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God."

Have you brought your children to Him?

And, Nagel, when I asked you, "Has God shown Himself to be Allah, Krishna, or any of the millions of gods in the world religions? Absolutely not!"

Nagel, you say, "has he shown himself Not to be? Yes, he is the God of the bible ( if you accept the bible).... or if you don't for that matter. He is also the god of the Torah and the Qur'an and he is both Shiva and Brahma. Many books, Many faiths, many names. ONE god."

You emphasize, "if you accept the bible."

How can you say you believe in God -- when you deny His Written Word? He tells us, in 2 Timothy 3:16, "ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God. . ." -- meaning that ALL SCRIPTURE was authored by God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Yet, you tell Him, "No, God, I do not believe You!" Saying that, how can you say that you believe in God?

And, you continue, "i didn't say there was another God. i said that there was One True God, and that he was the same God for all religions, even if they call him by another name. so all of your scripture here does nothing to prove me wrong. In fact, your quotes add a little weight to my point, because i am agreeing with scripture.. that there is only one Lord God

i am saying that there is ONE god. One. and he is the god of the whole world, and different people of the world call Him by different names. To christians he sent Jesus, to the Muslim He sent Mohammed. One God to rule them all, One God to find them, One God to Bring them all, etc etc."


In the Bible, He tells us, in Acts 3:13, "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, . . ." Show us anywhere in the Bible where He tells us He is the God of Islam, or the God of any of the world religions.

You, my Friend, are once again trying to hedge your bet -- making the New Age polytheistic gods your bedfellows. You tell us, "I believe in God" -- but, at the same time you lay claim to all the gods of the world religions -- just in case.

You tell us, "and as to New Age Religion i say Pff.. i don't have a religion. i have faith. because i have faith, i don't need religion."

You may have faith -- but, you seem to spread it over the millions of pagan gods -- just in case.

I confronted you, Nagel, on your denigrating name for our Lord, "And, when Nagel refers to our Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior, as "Jebus" -- once again I have to ask him -- is this where your FAITH lies -- in someone you refer to as "Jebus."

And, you respond, "i did. i did it as a cheap shot to the over zealous people... like you... who spend all day talking about christ and annoying all those around them."

You may have intended it as a slam against Conservative Christians. But, when is denigrating the name of our Lord a tool you can use to put down other people? Take a moment and read, in the Bible, what He tells us about taking His name in vain.

You justify your denigration of His name by saying, "i meant no disrespect to Christ - and what's more, HE knows this. He know my heart, so he doesn't require explanation. you don't know my heart, and don't deserve one. in other words, i was making fun of you, not Christ."

Yes, He knows your heart. But, He also told you, if you are a believer, to be His WITNESS to folks in all the world. What kind of witness for Him are you being when you slander, misuse, His name?

In 2 Corinthians 5:20, we are told, "Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; . . ." Are you being a good representative, an ambassador to the world, for Christ -- when you defame His name as a joke? This verse tells us, ". . .as though God were making an appeal through us; . . ." Is God speaking through you when you misuse His name as a means of putting down someone else?

You continue, "oddly enough, Bill, i've never said i was a christian. ever. first i denied it, because i wasn't, and didn't believe. then i said no because i wasn't sure. now i DO believe, and i still won't claim the title christian because i'm afraid people would lump me in with Fundies like you."

He died a cruel death on the cross for you -- but, you deny Him, you refuse to wear His name -- because you do not want the world to know you are a Christian? Now, that really makes sense.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 10:32-33, "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men -- I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. BUT whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

My Friend, you are treading on very thin ice.

And, you say, "when people ask if i am a christian, i answer simply 'i believe in Jesus and in his Father.' or i answer 'well, i try, but of course none of us ever get it right, but it doesn't stop us from trying our best.' the answer depends on the setting and the person asking."

No one believes in God and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- more than Satan. He has stood before both, face to face. Yet, do you want to be the same kind of believer as Satan?

Next, you declare, "the root of it is, it's none of their bloody business. I no longer deny Jesus, i just deny that it's any one else's business. it's between He and I. end of list."

Matthew 10:32-33, "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

When I wrote, "There is only ONE GOD (Isaiah 45:22); and He is the God of the Bible; the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" -- Nagel, you add, "And Ishmael and Mohammed and Confucius and ...."

Yes, Ishmael was in son of Abraham through a concubine -- but, he was cast out by God; the same God who declared Isaac to be the son He had promised to Abraham and Sarah to be the start of His chosen people, Israel.

You will not find Mohammed, Conscious, or any of the other gods you worship, in the Bible -- except possibly through an indirect reference of Satan.

Finally, I wrote, "And, when we do become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ -- we are indwelt, sealed, by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). He takes up residence in us -- and can never be evicted and will never sublet to any other spirits. My Friends, when this happens for us -- we do not hide it out of fear of offending someone. No! We shout it from the roof tops."

Nagel, you respond, "yeah.. i'm ALWAYS worried i'll offend someone. it keeps me awake at night, the fear that something i say will hurt someone's feelings."

So, you are afraid of offending other people -- but, you have no problem with offending our Lord by making a joke of His name. You have no problem offending our Lord -- by declaring for yourself all the gods of the world religions. You have no problem offending our Lord by telling people that you are a believer -- but, are ashamed to tell anyone.

Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, . . ."

Nagel, my Friend, I sincerely suggest you go to your quiet corner, with your Bible, and in prayer -- and examine what it really means to believe in God and Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind what we are told in Romans 1:21-22, "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."

Those "images" are the millions of gods in your world religions.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi Nagel,

You tell us, "i try to be a christian, but i know that i fail - i ask forgiveness for the failure, and keep on trying. i know exactly what i 'believe' about God, but it doesn't stop me from seeking further truth, because i understand that i am fallible and that i might not be right. so i keep looking in hopes of getting it right. i know exactly what i believe about Christ, but, etc etc (read the line above and apply it to this one) the last part you did get right. exactly right."

So, you are telling us, "Yes, I believe in God -- but, I want to hedge my bet just in case He isn't really there. I want to look for other deities -- just in case."


there you go trying interperation again. first on the bible, now on me.
That isn't what i said Bill. stop trying to put words into my mouth.
you make a sorry interpreter.

quote:



He tells us clearly, in the Bible, and in all of nature and the creation, that He is God, the one and only God. Yet, you will make your bed with our atheist Friends -- just in case. Good luck!


show me in this thread where i said there is more than one true God?

quote:

By the way, on your keyboard -- that big wide key just to the left of your "Z" key and the one to the right of your "?" key -- is the Shift key and it does wonders for your typing. And, if you like -- I can recommend a free download which will give you Spell Check in your browser.


but.. i thought you said in another thread that we should not judge or belittle someone because of their typing, spelling, grammatical etc habits?
you said it after making fun of me for poor typing habits. now you've once again flip flopped back.
good Ol Wishy-washy Bill.

quote:

Like you, I am fulfilled with the blessings God has given me in my family; especially my five grandchildren. But, the greatest blessing -- above all the rest -- is knowing the everyone in my family HAS eternal life, eternal security, in Jesus Christ. All of my children and all of my grandchildren who are old enough to understand -- have believed and received Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.

Have you brought your children to Him?


that is none of your business.

quote:

And, Nagel, when I asked you, "Has God shown Himself to be Allah, Krishna, or any of the millions of gods in the world religions? Absolutely not!"

Nagel, you say, "has he shown himself Not to be? Yes, he is the God of the bible ( if you accept the bible).... or if you don't for that matter. He is also the god of the Torah and the Qur'an and he is both Shiva and Brahma. Many books, Many faiths, many names. ONE god."

You emphasize, "if you accept the bible."

How can you say you believe in God -- when you deny His Written Word? He tells us, in 2 Timothy 3:16, "ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired by God. . ." -- meaning that ALL SCRIPTURE was authored by God through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.


except that isn't what insired means there.
the events in Somalia and Bosnia INSPIRED a couple of movies.
the writings of bram sroker INSPIRED a whole new genre of movies.

the scripture was INSPIRED by God.
"hey.. i like God. i think i'm going to write a couple stories about him."

Inspired by doesn't mean written by.

quote:


Yet, you tell Him, "No, God, I do not believe You!" Saying that, how can you say that you believe in God?


except what what i am acctually saying is:

"No, preacherman, I do not believe you!" i believe that you are following false doctrine and fiction, that you have been led astry by twisted and corrupt and power hungry men of long ago."

and with that said, just because i think YOU are full of crap doesn't mean i don't believe in God.
Unless you are claiming to be god?

quote:


In the Bible, He tells us, in Acts 3:13, "The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus, . . ." Show us anywhere in the Bible where He tells us He is the God of Islam, or the God of any of the world religions.


well good grief, why would he?
would you put instructions on how to rebuild a starter for a 87 mustang into the repair manual for a 72 dodge colt?
why would islam or hindu even be mentioned in the hebrew/christian manual?
noah and issac and daniel and peter, paul and mary aren't in the Qua'ran or the Bhagavadgītā.
of course they aren't. they shouldn't be.

i think the problem here is that you just can't grasp the concept i'm talking about. your mind has been calcified for so long, no new idea or thought can make it through.


quote:


You, my Friend, are once again trying to hedge your bet -- making the New Age polytheistic gods your bedfellows. You tell us, "I believe in God" -- but, at the same time you lay claim to all the gods of the world religions -- just in case.



No, i don't.
i have no interest, other than academical, in any other religion.



quote:


Yes, He knows your heart. But, He also told you, if you are a believer, to be His WITNESS to folks in all the world. What kind of witness for Him are you being when you slander, misuse, His name?


about the same kind of witness as you when you mislead, lie and teach hate and intollerance.
Christ said to love thy neighbor.
he did not add 'except those people over there, and that guy.. oh, and those two girls.. they're freaks."

quote:


You continue, "oddly enough, Bill, i've never said i was a christian. ever. first i denied it, because i wasn't, and didn't believe. then i said no because i wasn't sure. now i DO believe, and i still won't claim the title christian because i'm afraid people would lump me in with Fundies like you."

He died a cruel death on the cross for you -- but, you deny Him, you refuse to wear His name -- because you do not want the world to know you are a Christian? Now, that really makes sense.


yet again, you are wrong.
i'll tell people i believe in christ.
i won't accept the appelation ' christian' because it has come to be synonymous with 'obnoxious, judgemental, corrupt hateful hypocrite.'
today someone says " I'm a Christian!" and most people around them instantly think ' oh lord, here we go. who invited this twit?"

i had a couple try to pray with me in the middle of wal mart, because i helped them pick out a TV.
i told em i was on the clock, but they were welcome to go right ahead

they tried to pin me down again in the parking lot when i took the TV out to their car. i put the tv in their trunk, tied the trunk down and turned around and the guy reached out and grabbed my arm and started spouting " Oh dear heavenly father.." and i jerked away my arm. (he had a pretty serious grip on it) and i said ' enjoy the tube, have a nice evening" and went back inside, with him yelling his prayer at me across the parking lot.
obnoxious.

quote:

Jesus tells us in Matthew 10:32-33, "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men -- I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. BUT whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."

My Friend, you are treading on very thin ice.



maybe. but if i am it's not because i deny him. i deny a label.
i'm pretty sure he knows the difference.
i'm also pretty sure i don't care what you think about it.

quote:


Matthew 10:32-33, "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."


Matthew 6:5-6
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

this means, to me, keep it to yourself. don't stand around and spend all day talking about how saved you are or how christian you are.

in other words, i repeat, it's no one elses business.

quote:


Finally, I wrote, "And, when we do become children of God through faith in Jesus Christ -- we are indwelt, sealed, by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30). He takes up residence in us -- and can never be evicted and will never sublet to any other spirits. My Friends, when this happens for us -- we do not hide it out of fear of offending someone. No! We shout it from the roof tops."

Nagel, you respond, "yeah.. i'm ALWAYS worried i'll offend someone. it keeps me awake at night, the fear that something i say will hurt someone's feelings."

So, you are afraid of offending other people -- but, you have no problem with offending our Lord by making a joke of His name. You have no problem offending our Lord -- by declaring for yourself all the gods of the world religions. You have no problem offending our Lord by telling people that you are a believer -- but, are ashamed to tell anyone.


the word here Bill is Sarcasm. i guess it's beyond your ability to understand.
i shouldn't have tried it. i apologize for assuming you were smart enough to catch it.

let me re write that part in a way you'll understand.

quote
My Friends, when this happens for us -- we do not hide it out of fear of offending someone. No! We shout it from the roof tops."[/i]
/quote

Bill, i have never worried about offending any one for any reason. i rarely go out of my way to be sure i DO offened someone anymore, but there are times when polite hints and gentle suggestions just don't get the job done, so i unload on them.

if someone is offended by something i say, and it wasn't intentional, i'll apologize. usually.
but typically - i am who i am. i am who God made me. people can either like me or loathe me, it really doesn't matter to me either way. my wife and my kids love me. my sisters love me. my inlaws no longer hate me. other than that short list, i couldn't possibly care any less about what people think of me.
i have never and will never pretend to be someone or something i'm not, just to have people like me.

i am not ashamed of anything i've ever done or said. there are things i've asked forgivness for because i came to understand how wrong it was, but i'm not ashamed that i did them. nor am i proud of them. they are just a part of my past, steps i took that lead to who i am today.
they are no more important than, for example, your personal opinion of me.
what's done is done. when the ship lifts, all bills are paid. no regrets, ever.

quote:

Nagel, my Friend, I sincerely suggest you go to your quiet corner, with your Bible, and in prayer -- and examine what it really means to believe in God and Jesus Christ.


Bill, old guy, no need. i already know what it means.

believe it or not, i do read the bible. a lot.
why? because i'm aware that i could be wrong about something, and i look to see if there is anything in the book that covers it.
whether i believe it or not is irrelevent - it's the only guide book we have, and in the midst of the fiction there might be a grain of truth to find.

quote:


Those "images" are the millions of gods in your world religions.


i don't have millions of gods.
i have 1 god, who is the center of ALL religions.

we already know that He has many names. why can't one of the be Allah?
Last edited by thenagel
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Well done, Nagel. Well done.
I know you are not looking for approval, but I very much respect what you have written.
**virtual buying of a cyber- beer coming your way****

YEAH! - YOU TELL HIM, NAGEL! - HOW DARE BILL GRAY SHARE GOD'S WRITTEN WORD ON THE RELIGION FORUM! - IT SHOULD BE OUR "TRADITION" ONLY - NOT THE BIBLE!

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Well done, Nagel. Well done.
I know you are not looking for approval, but I very much respect what you have written.
**virtual buying of a cyber- beer coming your way****

YEAH! - YOU TELL HIM, NAGEL! - HOW DARE BILL GRAY SHARE GOD'S WRITTEN WORD ON THE RELIGION FORUM! - IT SHOULD BE OUR "TRADITION" ONLY - NOT THE BIBLE!


---Bill's way of yelling OH YEAH, WELL NAH-NAH-BOO-BOO! every time he thinks someone is leading one of his potential 'flock' astray.

Remember now, the one who dies with the most sheep wins. Smiler

PUH-thetic.
Hey Deep,

Not bad. But, can you tell a joke without it being an "oil joke" -- you know, "atheist crude"?

Let me give you a few examples:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THE ALABAMA BAPTIST DOG

A farmer lived alone in the Alabama countryside except for a pet dog which he doted on. The dog finally died and the farmer went to the local preacher, saying "Pastor, my dog is dead. Could you possibly say a few words for the poor creature?"

The preacher told the farmer, "No, we can't have services for an animal in the church. But I tell you what, there's a new denomination down the road apiece, and no telling what they believe in. Maybe they'll do something for the animal."

The farmer humbly told told the Baptist pastor, "Thank you, pastor. I'll go right now. By the way, do you think $50,000 is enough to donate for the service?"

The preacher grabbed the man's arm, and with a huge smile, asked him, "Why didn't you tell me your dog was a Baptist?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A BAPTIST DOG?

A Baptist couple felt it important to own an equally Baptist pet. So they went shopping at a kennel specializing in Baptist dogs. They found one dog they really liked. As a test, they told the dog to fetch the Bible; he did it in a flash. Then, they instructed him to look up Psalm 23. Once again, he did this equally fast, using his paws with dexterity.

Impressed, they purchased the animal, and took him home. That night, they had friends over for dinner. They were so proud of their new Baptist dog and his skills; they decided to show off a little. The friends were impressed! They asked whether the dog was able to do any of the usual dog tricks as well.

This stopped the couple cold. They hadn't thought of normal dog tricks. "Well," they said, "let's give it a try."

They called the dog --- and clearly pronounced the command, "Heel!"

Quick as a wink, the dog jumped up, put his paw on the man's forehead, closed his eyes in concentration, and bowed his head -- it was then that the couple realized they'd been deceived.

The shocked husband cried, "That kennel man didn't tell us the dog was a Pentecostal ‘healer!'"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Y'all come back now, ya heah?

Bill

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sorry, Bill, you really shouldn't try to tell jokes.

both were old and were only semi funny when they were new - now it's just tried old tripe.

i don't require jokes to be dirty. neither do i require them to be clean. i just require them to be funny.

Gene's joke was funny. mine was also kinda tired and old, but i thought it appropriate to the topic at hand.

yours were liek your sermons - old, tired, stale, nothing new or interesting about them.

care to try another, or you gonan go back to calling everyone that isn't cheering you on an athiest?

youre welcoem to try again - maybe there is a sense of humor in there some place
quote:
/bows
can you make sure to send a slice of cyberlime for the Virtual Corona.

heh.. Beer 2.0


Nope, sorry...I'm already upgraded to wine 2.5
And I still don't really get the whole sheep thing... Wink

I have a joke, though....
Q_whats the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
A- the Catholic will say hello to you in the liquor store. Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Nope, sorry...I'm already upgraded to wine 2.5
And I still don't really get the whole sheep thing... I have a joke, though....
Q_whats the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
A- the Catholic will say hello to you in the liquor store.

THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE TERRITORY!

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quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
/bows
can you make sure to send a slice of cyberlime for the Virtual Corona.

heh.. Beer 2.0


Nope, sorry...I'm already upgraded to wine 2.5
And I still don't really get the whole sheep thing... Wink

I have a joke, though....
Q_whats the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
A- the Catholic will say hello to you in the liquor store. Smiler


heh.. not bad.

lets just say, as to the sheep, some scotsmen of old came to prefer them to women because they never demanded anything.

Oh Ba-a-a-a-a-a-a--a--aby
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
can you make sure to send a slice of cyberlime for the Virtual Corona. heh.. Beer 2.0

Nope, sorry...I'm already upgraded to wine 5
And I still don't really get the whole sheep thing... I have a joke, though....
Q_whats the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist? A- the Catholic will say hello to you in the liquor store.

heh.. not bad. lets just say, as to the sheep, some scotsmen of old came to prefer them to women because they never demanded anything.
Oh Ba-a-a-a-a-a-a--a--aby

AND, THAT - IS YOUR CATECHISM LESSON FOR TODAY!

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
heh.. not bad. lets just say, as to the sheep, some scotsmen of old came to prefer them to women because they never demanded anything.
Oh Ba-a-a-a-a-a-a--a--aby

AND, THAT - IS YOUR CATECHISM LESSON FOR TODAY![/QUOTE]

i think bills been hitting the nyquil a little heavy tonight.
what does that even mean, bill? i was trying to explain the sheep thing to a catholic who mentioned she didn't understand the sheep rererance...
so you take the chance to make a inane and cheap shot at catholisim?

what?
quote:
so you take the chance to make a inane and cheap shot at catholisim?


Yes, He does. But sometimes he will say stuff like "Oh, I spent 20 years in a catholic church and never heard about Jesus", or call us cannibals. And that's when it really gets laughable. But also he thinks we sit around talking to statues. Which, after a few adult beverages, I have been known to talk to inanimate objects, but statues? No, I don't think so.
I think he is a closet catholic. Or maybe just jealous cause we have more fun. me thinks Thou doth protest too much!! Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Nope, sorry...I'm already upgraded to wine 2.5
And I still don't really get the whole sheep thing... I have a joke, though....
Q_whats the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
A- the Catholic will say hello to you in the liquor store.

THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE TERRITORY!


What are you trying to say Bill, that Catholics are drunks? You are pathetic.
quote:
Originally posted by smokey1:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by vplee123:
Nope, sorry...I'm already upgraded to wine 2.5
And I still don't really get the whole sheep thing... I have a joke, though....
Q_whats the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
A- the Catholic will say hello to you in the liquor store.

THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE THEY ARE MORE FAMILIAR WITH THE TERRITORY!

What are you trying to say Bill, that Catholics are drunks? You are pathetic.

Hi Smokey,

No, I would NEVER say that. I am just joshing VP with his joke about RCs in the liquor store.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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