I have questions for Bill

Oh, one other assumption I'm making.  You believe, as do I, that Bill Gray is at least an above average Biblical scholar.  You know the Bible well, and understand all its tenets.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Can I step in & play too?

Those people you ask Bill about? He will give you a typical Bill Answer.

They were never saved.

I'm just trying to clarify that one way or the other before we begin.

Crust, the Catholic invocation will hedge any attempt by you to pin Bill to the mat.  Don’t forget Bill was Catholic and has learnt the art of fabrication on the fly by invviiccuulleousxxiviimm. You are no match for the Pope, Bill and innccvvileousxxiciivmllm. It is never know their position and momentum at any given instant.

Maybe so, Quail, but it will be fun to watch.

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Bill can't handle it when you back him in a corner. He either runs or post a silly cartoon. Looks like he chose to run this time.

 

You have questions-good luck with getting an answer. All you'll get is some long story about something that no one cares about. 

 

 PATIENCE, KIDDIES!   PATIENCE!

 

And the cartoons, don't forget the cartoons. 

Lol!!'  You've asked bill a question. 
Oh that's funny. 
If he does answer he will say the people in your hypothesis were never truly saved to begin with.  They were "fake saved"

That's fine.  I'm just trying to establish Bill's position prior to asking my questions.

 

It's also my understanding that if there is some conflict between the Old Testament and the New Testament, the New Testament wins out.  Think an eye for an eye versus turn the other cheek, and the whole mess with Leviticus (New Testament trumps Leviticus).  

 

If I'm wrong about any of this, correct me.  I don't need thousands of words, just something a four year old can understand.

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Here is some help for you, Crusty:

http://www.examiner.com/articl...stament-fit-together

 

You and others overlook certain key considerations of Biblical scholarship in your quest to discredit scripture by asserting that the Old and new Testaments contradict one another. There are numerous New Testament passages that address the relationship between the testaments and make it clear that the Law of Moses, and particularly the Levitical laws, were a "schoolmaster to bring us to Christ."  "Schoolmaster,"sometimes translated "tutor", is from a Greek word that identified a household servant who escorted a child to school.  In Galatians,this metaphor is teaching that the law of Moses has served its purpose.  Those who are in Christ do not need the "tutor"--the Mosaic Law; it has served its purpose. 

 

Galatians 3:24:  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

 

It is clear from scripture that the Jews of the Old Testament looked to the coming of a Messiah and a fulfillment of  Law and Prophecy in a new kingdom.  

 

If you really wish to understand the relationship between the Old Testament and the New, you should read the entirely of the short book of Galatians and the 7th through the 10th chapters of the Book of Hebrews. 

I'm just clarifying Bill's take on that matter.  Thanks anyway, Contendah.

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Here's one more for you:

 

http://www.christianitytoday.c...-marcions-ghost.html

 

Thank you for that good explanation.  I agree with you.  And, that is a good article.  I only find one part of the article with which I would disagree:

 

That is the key difference between the people of God in the Old Testament compared to the New.  In ancient days, Israel was not only “the church”, but they were also a government. Today, the church is a community of faith, but it is not a political entity. “Church discipline” in ancient times may have meant being executed for adultery. Today, church discipline means being excommunicated from the assembly, in hopes that the person will repent and be restored (as can be seen in 2 Corinthians).

 

Israel has never been, nor will they ever be "the church."    They were a religion, based around their synagogues and temple, based upon the Law of Moses -- but, the title or name "the church" is reserved for the body of Christian believers worldwide, the body of Christ. 

 

Judaism, the nation Israel, are the chosen people of God from whom He will redeem the remnant of His chosen people through the seven year Tribulation.

 

The nation Israel and Judaism, His chosen people, is a totally separate and different entity from the church.  In the Millennial Kingdom of Christ on earth -- we will find five groups of people:  (1) His chosen people, the remnant of Israel who have come to faith in their Messiah, (2) the church, the body of believers who were raptured into heaven and are the Bride of Christ at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb, (3) the Old Testament saints, (4) all the Tribulation saints who came to faith in Christ after the Tribulation began and were martyred, and (5) all believers who survived the Tribulation and came into Christ's Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies.

 

But, since the article is from the Jackson Presbyterian Examiner, the writer's leaning toward Replacement Theology, that the church had replaced Israel as the chosen people (spiritually) of God -- I can see why he wrote that.  Still, I, and the Bible, disagree with him.

 

Otherwise, a good article and I agree with what you have written.  Good work.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Okay, so Bill isn't going to answer. 

Crusty, my Friend,

 

Haven't you heard the old saying, "Patience is a virtue."? 

 

My Friend, I am only trying to help you become more virtuous.  So, work with me,   I promise you will NOT be disappointed.  A wee ticked off as usual; but, not disappointed.

 

Bless your impatient little heart!

 

Bill

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I wonder why you thought he would answer, and I wonder why you care.

Bill claims that he wants to tutor me.  I'm trying to give him the opportunity.  However, he obviously can't even agree to what he believes.  I'm expecting a massive post that can be summed up in about eight lines, unless it is just jibber-jabber. 

Crusty, my Friend,

 

I never call myself a Bible Study Teacher or Tutor.  Rather I will say that I like to lead a Bible study, i.e., it is an interactive discussion which I will start, join in, and if it seems to be getting off-track, try to bring it back on subject.

 

When one "teaches" that implies that he/she is an expert and knows all about the subject.  I am, like you and many others, still learning when it comes to knowing God's Word.  We are all usually at different peaks or levels of learning -- but, all still learning.

 

When I lead a Bible study, I learn as much as others.  Most often, my learning begins as I prepare for the study -- but, during the study discussions I learn a lot.  The Holy Spirit gives light at the appropriate time and from the appropriate source.  

 

Many times during a study discussion, the Holy Spirit will give new insight to one of the participants -- which he/she then shares with the group.  Thus, we all learn.  That is why I highly prefer an interactive Bible study instead of having one person standing at a pulpit teaching.

 

My preferred Bible study is when we all sit together, in a home, at church, wherever -- all on the same level sharing and discussing God's Word.   That is when we all are more open to learning and understanding.

 

So, no Tutor, no Teacher -- just a group of Friends enjoying reading and talking about God's Word, found in the Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

crust, what religious denomination are you or, are you possibly COC?

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Honestly, Bill.  You really are confused.  It doesn't make for either a good leader or a good tutor.

 

---

Crusty, my Friend,

 

As I have told you several time -- I am willing to tutor you on understanding the Bible.  How shall we do this?  On the Forum, via PM, telephone, e-mail, Facebook?  Your choice.  But, from where we would be starting -- the only way is UP!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

 

 

Crusty, my Friend,

 

Can you not see why I said I would "tutor" you?   When one is leading a Bible study; that goes with the assumption that other participants have some knowledge of and desire to learn more about God's Word.

 

On the other side of that coin is the old farmer who sold his very gentle mule to the city slicker -- and then hit the mule over the head with a 2X4.  When the stunned city slicker asked why, the farmer told him, "He is a gentle mule -- but, first you have to get his attention!"

 

So, my Friend, when I offered to "tutor" you -- I was only trying to get your attention.

 

Bless your heart!

 

Bill

I see crust has the same intention as he accuses Bill of; not answering.

what brand aarr ye there crust?

No brand.

where have you ever attended? [brand]

Well, lets see.  I've attended Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, CoC, and Episcopalian churches at one point or another.  I've also attended a Japanese Tea Ceremony, and a goat roping.

crust,

which brand if, asked in a survey, would you say you would most likely associate with, if an urge to attend regularly for no particular reason struck you as something you were determined to do?  

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What?! No greased pig chases?

Bill Gray,

 

Do not be too hard on the author of the article I posted for his statement regarding Israel as not only "the church" but the government.  He placed the words "the church" in quotes, just as you quoted him.  I believe it was his intent not to literally associate Israel with the church of the New Testament (Christ's church), but only to identify the Jewish religious system of the pre-Christian era. Otherwise he would not have placed "the church" within quotation marks. 

Hi Contendah,

 

The reason I drew that assumption is that the article is from the Jackson Presbyterian Examiner.  And, it is common knowledge that Replacement Theology is big among many Presbyterians.  

 

D. James Kennedy, who was the founding pastor of the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, and the most visible Presbyterian clergyman until his death in 2007 -- did advocate Replacement Theology.

 

If that was a wrong assumption, then I accept your premise.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

BillCoral Ridge Presbyterian Church

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Of those on the list, I would not attend a Baptist or CoC church. 

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Well, Razorback games.  Close enough?

i have two questions..

what difference does 'denomination' make anyway??
what 'denomination' was jesus?

Quail wants to stick a label on me.  He's afraid I'm a Sneetch with a Star.

Well, the star-bellied sneetches were the best on the beaches.

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Good point, but not a question anyone can answer truthfully.

Pretty sure he was Jewish.