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Originally Posted by semiannualchick:

Originally Posted by The Nagel:

just because YOU haven't heard him speak, doesn't mean he isn't there.

if you ask a question that cna only be answered by a book you don't believe in, why ask the question?

 

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I haven't said beyond a shadow of a doubt that He isn't there. But I find it hard to believe that He actually speaks. I believe it's our conscience talking & some people will say it's the voice of God. If that makes a person happy to think that way, more power to'em.

Jenn ask why God shouldn't be satisfied with all the happy followers he has, & not be concerned with the ones that don't believe in him. What's wrong with her asking people's opinion on that? Someone's opinion to that doesn't have to be found only in a book.


well.. i have to admit, from her question, when i first read it, i saw it the same way most people did.. it didn't appear to be looking for the opinions of the readers as the answer to the question, but instead looking for a reason from god himself as to why he would be concerned over the people who don't believe.

it's one of the reasons i didn't reply. if the question was intended as it was asked, i had no answer for her. i dunno what reasons god has for anything... all i can do is try to guess correctly without enough facts and hope i guess right.

 

but as for opinion... i think he would be happy with what's he's got, and that he feels remorse and loss for those who truly have broken enough rules to cause an afterlife of punishment.

the same way a father watches a child he raised head down a path of drugs and crime. he has done everythign he can to prevent it, and tried to derail it, but the kid juts keeps on breaking into stores and robbing gas stations.

 

admitedly, i don't think just not being able to believe in him is what will cause punishment. someone brought up the BTK killer for example.. he believed in god just as surely as Bill does and thought he was doing gods will.  will he be rewarded in heaven because he believed?

nope.

it's how you live... what's in your heart that determines your fate, not whether or not you are able to believe.

 

and people like bill don't get it. GB does...

i do.. Veep does... you cannot make yourself believe just because someone tells you to. you have to have a reason... a revelation.. or enough convincing information. you can't just decide ' oh.. hell, huh? eternity of fire? pitchforks up the bum? ok.. skip that, i believe now, praise jesus."

that's false faith, and God knows the difference. that's lying to god.

 

which do you think would make him happier... being told ' i never believed in you. i'm sorry, i was wrong." or being told ' i always believed in you!" when he KNows that it is not the case?

 

with my kids, the only capitol offence in this house is for them to lie to their parents. sure, if they own up to something they might get in trouble.. but it will be nothign near the trouble they get in if they mess up and then lie about it as well.

i can't think that God would feel much different....

Originally Posted by Jennifer:

There you go Nagel, that's what I was talking about. Your opinion. One little thing though, I can't equate a disbelief in a god to robbing gas stations, breaking into stores and doing drugs.


LOL.. /bow

neither can i.. was just useing that as a tool to suggest ' the wrong path' kinda thing....

god sees his children deny his existance... wrong path...

dad watches his kid hold up a liquer store.... wrong path...

 

not really similar.. i dont' mean to imply disbelief is a crime, just that it's not the optimal selection that He would have chosen, you know?

 

nah.. i have more in common with athiests than i do whacknut fundies like TheBill. you guys don't try to shovel sunshine up my butt and then tell me the sunburns are my own fault...

that's the fundies gig....

quote:
  Originally Posted by Jennifer:

I saw that question somewhere else and thought it was a pretty good one.  Shouldn't your god be satisfied with all the happy followers he has, and not be concerned with the ones that don't believe in him? 


Hi Jennifer,

 

God's desire is that all would believe and have eternal life in Christ.

 

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

 

So, why doesn't He just save everyone?  To do that He would have to revoke the gift of "free will" He gave to all mankind.  In that "free will" man is given the ability to choose to follow Christ -- or to reject His "paid in full" gift of eternal life.  If God revoked that gift of "free will" -- then, all men (and women) would be only robots -- doing what the Master tells them to do.   That is not life; that is barely existence.

 

Because God's love is perfect; He wants to save everyone. 

 

Because God's justice is perfect; He cannot. 

 

However, He loves YOU so much that He has already "prepaid" YOUR ticket to heaven.  All you have to do is to accept that free gift -- just walk up to the Free Gift Window and tell them you want your "prepaid" ticket on the Glory Train.   If you will do that, YOU will have an amazing eternity.

 

If you will NOT do that -- well, I do not want to share that eternity with you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

We're all God's children. He loves us equally. If someone is too imbecilic to recognize the reality of God, I couldn't care less on a personal level, but God does.


Um....Is there any chance you could actually SHOW ME that particular 'reality'.?

 

 As everybody knows, I'm not a believer, but I do ask questions of believers-as I've explained before-I think if I can figure out why people believe that stuff, then maybe I can figure out the belief itself.

  At the very least the answers I get help me to better understand human nature.

Last edited by Road Puppy
Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

We're all God's children. He loves us equally. If someone is too imbecilic to recognize the reality of God, I couldn't care less on a personal level, but God does.

Originally Posted by Road Puppy:

Um....Is there any chance you could actually SHOW ME that particular 'reality'.?

 

 

She considers people like you & me an imbecile so she believes you wouldn't understand if she could show you, & she couldn't care less.

Hi Firenze,

You write, "We're all God's children.  He loves us equally.  If someone is too imbecilic to recognize the reality of God, I couldn't care  less on a personal level, but God does."

Actually, the Bible tells us that we are all God's creation -- but, only those who have, by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, become  followers of Jesus Christ -- are His children.

Yes, He loves us all equally.  However, because His love is perfect; so, also does His justice have to be perfect.  And, His perfect  justice tells us that only those who receive Him as Lord and Savior have the right to be called children of God -- and only they have  eternal life in Christ.  

Those who choose to deny Christ -- have chosen to NOT be children of God and to NOT share in His eternal life.  They have chosen  -- for themselves -- to spend eternity out of the presence of God -- and that can only mean hell.

John 1:12,  "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His  name."

Romans 8:14-17, "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.  For you have not received a spirit of  slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!'   The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we (Christian believers)are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if  indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him."

And, as Christian believers, when we see others on the path which does not lead to eternal life in Christ -- we should love them  enough to tell them they are on the wrong path.

Not too long ago, I shared this story of being a Christian witness:

I recall a story I read in Our Daily Bread, Fall 1991 issue.  It was written by Henry Bosch and tells of a missionary to the Kiowa Indians.

The first missionary to the Kiowa Indians was a woman named Miss Reside.  After living with the Indians long enough for them to know what it meant to be a Christian, they began calling her "Aim Day Co."

Explaining the significance of this name, Chief Bigtree said, "When we Kiowas see anyone on the wrong trail, we call out, 'Aim day co,' which means 'Turn this way.'  Our sister came to us from a far land and found us on the wrong path and in great danger.  She stood and called to us and said, 'Turn this way.'  Then she showed us the Jesus road.  God bless Miss Aim Day Co."

Christian believers are called by Jesus Christ to tell those on the wrong path, "Turn this way.  Turn from following the world -- and  turn to follow Jesus Christ."   We should love them enough to share Jesus Christ with them.

Firenze, I realize there are many who will say, as Chick did to you, "I don't know if you consider yourself a Christian or not, (doesn't  sound like you are) but that comment is the attitude of most Christians."

Why is this?  Because no one likes to be told they are wrong -- even when they are on the wrong path.  And, most will declare, "How  can YOU say that we are on the wrong path?  Who says YOUR path is the right path?"

And, once again, we must remind folks that it is not what Bill Gray, or any other Christian says -- it is what God tells us in His Written Word, the Bible, that is the truth.  If the Bible tells us they are on the wrong path -- they are on the wrong path.  At least, according to God.

They can ignore God; which many choose to do.   They can even deny that God exists -- which is what our atheist Friends do.    Why?  If one ignores God, if one denies God -- then, that person, in his/her own mind -- is responsible only to himself/herself.   However, in the end, they will find that is wrong.  But, by then, it will be too late.

So, what is a Christian to do?  We must always do as He tells us in Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 1:8, and Mark 16:15 -- we must be His witnesses to all the world.  In doing so, we will have many, verbal and even, at times, physical, rocks and stones thrown at us.  But, He does tell us, in Matthew 5:11,  "Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me."

Pastor David Guzik, Director of Calvary Chapel College in Germany, tells us in his commentary on Matthew 5:11, "Jesus brings insults and spoken malice into the sphere of persecution.  We cannot limit our idea of persecution to only physical opposition or torture."

Yes, many will mock Christians, many will accuse of us spreading hatred, many will accuse us of being liars and even worse.  But, keep in mind that the anger they vent most often is a by-product of knowing (at least within their own hearts) that we are speaking the truth -- a truth they are not yet ready to face.

Hey, I speak from personal knowledge!  For many years I was somewhat abusive verbally to any Christian who tried to share Jesus Christ with me.  I wanted none of that.  And, don't even dare try to give me a Christian tract or any other Christian literature.  Right into the trash can with that!  

 

Yet, now, as a believer -- I collect as many Christian tracts, etc., as I can find.  I have often picked up tracts that others, after having it given to them, have thrown on the ground.  I will stop and pick up those tracts.  Who knows, I just  might find a "golden nugget" in one of them -- a "golden nugget" I can share with others.

Why did I resist the Christian witnesses so strongly?  It interfered with the fun I thought I was having by living "in the world."   Yes, I  thought I was having too much fun to let God interfere.  But, praise God, He did not give up on me.  And we Christians should not give up on those who do not yet believe -- even when they have a hand full of stones -- or a mouth full of curses.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Semi, the first thing you have to realize is that some of them feel they are allowed by their god to call you anything or accuse you of anything they want, and if you respond in kind they go into the "christian persecution" mode. "Oh you awful atheist, look how you speak to god's people".   It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
  Originally Posted by Jennifer:

I saw that question somewhere else and thought it was a pretty good one.  Shouldn't your god be satisfied with all the happy followers he has, and not be concerned with the ones that don't believe in him? 


Hi Jennifer,

 

God's desire is that all would believe and have eternal life in Christ.

 

2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

 

So, why doesn't He just save everyone?  To do that He would have to revoke the gift of "free will" He gave to all mankind.  In that "free will" man is given the ability to choose to follow Christ -- or to reject His "paid in full" gift of eternal life.  If God revoked that gift of "free will" -- then, all men (and women) would be only robots -- doing what the Master tells them to do.   That is not life; that is barely existence.

 

Because God's love is perfect; He wants to save everyone. 

 

Because God's justice is perfect; He cannot. 

 

However, He loves YOU so much that He has already "prepaid" YOUR ticket to heaven.  All you have to do is to accept that free gift -- just walk up to the Free Gift Window and tell them you want your "prepaid" ticket on the Glory Train.   If you will do that, YOU will have an amazing eternity.

 

If you will NOT do that -- well, I do not want to share that eternity with you.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill


ok bill.. i'll bite-

 

all we have to do is believe, huh?

 

so.. how are the people who don't believe because logic and science have led them to believe something else supposed to just suddenly ignore that logical path and decide to believe in something that doesn't make any sense?

it's not as simple as just saying ' well, ok.. i believe now, so i'ma go to heaven.'

and it's not as simple as 'praying' to be shown the light. if that worked there'd be no athiests left, because at some point every of them tries it... and when they do try it, most of them genuinely mean it. and each time they are answered with.... nothing. i know, because i was there - i spent a lot of years there.

 

so how does one just decide to believe in god, when everything you know says otherwise?

it would be like you decideing that tomorrow you were going to believe that evoloution was fact.

 

 

Good luck with that one Nagel. That's one of many, well most, well all, the questions bill will never answer. He knows people don't choose to believe or not believe, but if he admitted that he couldn't put, what he thinks, is a guilt trip on them.  And he can't get it through his head those little guilt trips don't work. He actually thinks he's clever. Bill's motto: "If you can't dazzle them with BS confuse them with lies". It still doesn't work, but he works hard at it.

 

yeah... but we've all come to understand how insane bills take on it all is.

like Jenn notes above.. he acctually DOES think he's clever, and he thinks we are all either in awe of him, or afraid of him so we try to discredit him.

poor litle senile old fool, he doesn't grasp that he does a better job of making himself look foolish that we ever could.

 

Originally Posted by Rramnlimnn_TheGreat:

 

It is so entertaining to watch Bro. Bill play with youse guys with one arm tied behind his back and the other dividing bone from marrow with the Sword of the Word.

 

Rev 1:16 & 19:16 says, "He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS".

In 2 Timothy 2:15 (NIV)  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth".

 

Bill doesn't know how to handle the word of truth. Scripture should not be used to cut people down, or knocking people over the head with it. Bill uses it to justify his own ends, to justify his beliefs, his ways. Sad, isn't it?

Let me elaborate on my answer of "I don't care personally." If I mention God to you, and you say you'd rather not discuss religion or a similar answer, I see no need to pursue the topic as some do. You've made your decision. I have no desire to push it down your throat. If that person should ever change his or her mind, I would always be happy to discuss it with them.

 

It does seem that many people don't like it either way...

 

Originally Posted by FirenzeVeritas:

Let me elaborate on my answer of "I don't care personally." If I mention God to you, and you say you'd rather not discuss religion or a similar answer, I see no need to pursue the topic as some do. You've made your decision. I have no desire to push it down your throat. If that person should ever change his or her mind, I would always be happy to discuss it with them.

 

It does seem that many people don't like it either way.

 

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You called anyone that doesn’t believe the way you do an imbecile, (A stupid or silly person; a dolt). When RP ask if you could actually SHOW him that particular 'reality', I assumed you wouldn’t since you couldn’t care less.  

I’m far from stupid & wouldn’t consider anyone stupid for not believing as I do. Just a simple difference of opinion. 

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