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Happened to see that quote on an officialy recognized, by the United States of America, quarter today. Upon looking at other pieces of currency, I noticed it on them as well. I don't know if it's on $100 bills, as it's been so long since I've seen one.
This caused me to ponder...or, think, if you may, since there was nothing on TV at the time worth watching...Why is this reference to "God" on an instrument of the United States Government?
Upon further investigation, I found the quote "One Nation, Under GOD" on another accepted United States of America example (Pledge)
I know...I know! By now you are probably thinking "Get to the point, and stop blathering" you idiot!
So, after observing the discussions here for some time, and! knowing the various opinions, I pose this finding...
The Government of the United States of America has forbiden "Prayer in School"...No posting of the Biblical "10 Commandments" in any Federal/school building...but YET! The Government (President, Congress, TVA, Post Office...etc, takes a "Christmas Break?"
Uhh...have THEY not noticed that "Christ" is the opening word?
Yes, our Founding Fathers made sure there was a seperation of "church and State" meaning..as I was taught...many years ago, no forced Religion.
However, by officially taking a "CHRISTmas Break" are our leaders not endorsing...GOD?
If not, I want my Government to...deliver mail on Sunday, after all...it was set aside for "worship", BUT! it's just another day, and I can get my "duns" in the garbage by Monday pick-up.
No paid "Holidays" for Federal workers at "Christmas"
Rant over.
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The mail moves everyday of the week. It is just not delivered on Sunday.

Some people call it Winter Holiday or Winter Break instead of Christmas Break.

The Pledge. When joining the military, one is given the option of saying "under God." Also saying under God is not saying a specific God. It is addressing the God of the person saying the Pledge. Under God was not added until the 50's.

In closing, if you don't like the words of the Pledge, do not say them. No one is forced to.
Last edited by flotown79
You can pray until the cows come, at lunch, during recess, during gym before each free throw, at the toilet, ad naus., ad infin. What you cannot do is to disrupt a class during class or preach during an assembly, etc. at a publicly funded school, nor can any administration or teaching figure do more than be absolutely neutral in matters religious, while not endorsing any sect, branch, creed or lack thereof, nor can they suggest, urge or demand any religious test or exercise of any sort. Maybe you ought to learn the case law first and then try to make opinion and not just spout outrages of either side which I am sure were rather swiftly handled by law cases, and "swiftly" means, in this case, after the students were graduated, those sort tending to be engulfed by briefs filed by amici curae.
quote:
Originally posted by flotown79:

The Pledge. When joining the military, one is given the option of saying "under God."


Really? Since when? I enlisted in the Navy exactly 3 months after 9/11 and went on terminal leave 31 JAN 2007. Never were we ever informed of an option of saying "under God." It would be strange, considering the last 4 words of the swearing in ceremony are "so help me God."
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by flotown79:

The Pledge. When joining the military, one is given the option of saying "under God."


Really? Since when? I enlisted in the Navy exactly 3 months after 9/11 and went on terminal leave 31 JAN 2007. Never were we ever informed of an option of saying "under God." It would be strange, considering the last 4 words of the swearing in ceremony are "so help me God."


You are correct. It is the phrase "so help me God" that one does not have to say when joining the military.

The phrase "so help me God" is also optional for immigrants who wish to become US citizens.
quote:
Originally posted by CageTheElephant:
Yawn!...BIG yawn...


If you are yawning at the very correct and succinct explanation Aude Sapere provided, they content yourself with being bored. But be advised that all Aude posted is valid and true stuff. Aude just knocked the props out from under your little amateurish dissertation and you found no way to reply other than by your silly "BIG yawn." Grow up and get educated.
Aude is in fact correct. "Prayer not allowed in schools anymore" is just a lie made up by a bunch of preachers to strike fear into the minds of simpletons that "they are taking away our freedoms".
I can remember when those laws were placed into effect. The reason was that most of us didn't want our children subjected to the religion then being pushed which was the "Hare Krishna"s who were in most airports and public places giving away their literature. Even the "Beetles" were pushing that religion as in the song "My Sweet Lord".
More lately, I would doubt if any of you would desire your little Johnny bowing 5 times per day to Mecca on his little prayer rug.
The decision to keep public prayer out of schools is a good thing, whether it be to Jesus, Hare Krishna, Muhammad, or twirling a Buddhist prayer wheel.
On the bright side, you can privately pray all you want in school. Praying privately (in a closet) is what Jesus told us to do anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
Aude is in fact correct. "Prayer not allowed in schools anymore" is just a lie made up by a bunch of preachers to strike fear into the minds of simpletons that "they are taking away our freedoms".
I can remember when those laws were placed into effect. The reason was that most of us didn't want our children subjected to the religion then being pushed which was the "Hare Krishna"s who were in most airports and public places giving away their literature. Even the "Beetles" were pushing that religion as in the song "My Sweet Lord".
More lately, I would doubt if any of you would desire your little Johnny bowing 5 times per day to Mecca on his little prayer rug.
The decision to keep public prayer out of schools is a good thing, whether it be to Jesus, Hare Krishna, Muhammad, or twirling a Buddhist prayer wheel.
On the bright side, you can privately pray all you want in school. Praying privately (in a closet) is what Jesus told us to do anyway.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

seeweed says, "I can remember when those laws were placed into effect." That quote illustrates the very problem. For 150 plus years it was understood, Constitutionally, the FEDERAL government has no say in such matters...as referenced in the text of the First Amendment above. This question, along with an infinite number of other controversial issues, were to be left in state and local government hands...you know that goofy little idea the Founders had...Self Government.

And yes, beternU, this is a State's Right argument...I should probably change my signature to Thomas Jefferson's quote calling the Tenth Amendment the "cornerstone" of the Constitution.
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Nation:
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
Aude is in fact correct. "Prayer not allowed in schools anymore" is just a lie made up by a bunch of preachers to strike fear into the minds of simpletons that "they are taking away our freedoms".
I can remember when those laws were placed into effect. The reason was that most of us didn't want our children subjected to the religion then being pushed which was the "Hare Krishna"s who were in most airports and public places giving away their literature. Even the "Beetles" were pushing that religion as in the song "My Sweet Lord".
More lately, I would doubt if any of you would desire your little Johnny bowing 5 times per day to Mecca on his little prayer rug.
The decision to keep public prayer out of schools is a good thing, whether it be to Jesus, Hare Krishna, Muhammad, or twirling a Buddhist prayer wheel.
On the bright side, you can privately pray all you want in school. Praying privately (in a closet) is what Jesus told us to do anyway.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

seeweed says, "I can remember when those laws were placed into effect." That quote illustrates the very problem. For 150 plus years it was understood, Constitutionally, the FEDERAL government has no say in such matters...as referenced in the text of the First Amendment above. This question, along with an infinite number of other controversial issues, were to be left in state and local government hands...you know that goofy little idea the Founders had...Self Government.

And yes, beternU, this is a State's Right argument...I should probably change my signature to Thomas Jefferson's quote calling the Tenth Amendment the "cornerstone" of the Constitution.

Well, yes, BUT, this is NOT either a freedom of speech issue, nor is it a freedom of religion issue. It is an issue that prevents those of another faith than your own from forcing their religious beliefs on your children.
If you have prayer led by a person of authority in a school system, then that person would, in order to comply with the amendment, be required to offer prayers to all known deities.
Better to let prayer be a personal thing.
Again, Jesus told us to go pray in a closet, not openly and bostefully . (and for that matter, I have never found where Scripture told us to "bow our heads and close our eyes")
Matt 6:5 " But when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. When you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen ..." "

The real question is, why would you want public led prayer in school (synagogues), or anywhere else (street corners) , to start with ? Look at what Jesus said about that .

Sorry for the mini-sermon. Didn't mean to sound like Bill Gray.
quote:
Originally posted by Tomme73:
quote:
Originally posted by flotown79:

The Pledge. When joining the military, one is given the option of saying "under God."


Really? Since when? I enlisted in the Navy exactly 3 months after 9/11 and went on terminal leave 31 JAN 2007. Never were we ever informed of an option of saying "under God." It would be strange, considering the last 4 words of the swearing in ceremony are "so help me God."



You are correct. The option is only available to the 'army' division.


"6–18. Administration of oath of enlistment
A commissioned officer of any service will administer the Oath of Enlistment in DD Form 4 orally, in English, to each
applicant. Make a suitable arrangement to ensure that the oath is administered in a dignified manner and in proper
surroundings. Display the U.S. flag prominently near the officer giving the oath. The words “So help me God” may be
omitted for persons who desire to affirm rather than to swear to the oath."


The U.S. code does not provide an option...

"(a) Enlistment Oath.— Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
“I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
(b) Who May Administer.— The oath may be taken before the President, the Vice-President, the Secretary of Defense, any commissioned officer, or any other person designated under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense."
Renegade Nation,

You quoted the first amendment as though it proved YOUR point, which it decidedly does NOT.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone wants to trust the government, in the form of local public school administrators who ARE, without question, an element of GOVERNMENT, to decide when school children shall pray, where they shall pray, what form of address they shall make to the Deity (and which deity, for that matter), and what to pray for or about. THAT is not the role of school administrators or teachers. Yes, they got away with that in many schools for many years, but that does not make it constitutional. The First Amendment, which you quoted, is what prevents government from prescribing the times, places and contents of student prayers in public schools. If you wish to say a prayer, go ahead right now and thank your God that the Constitution prevents such government meddling in the spiritual lives of school children.
quote:
Originally posted by wtrfb2010:
I still don't see where it said to pray in a closet. Why would you go in a closet when it says to go to your room behind closed doors?

My apologies, I was remembering from the KJV ( But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet") but I copied that from the NIV.
The NIV I believe, is simpler to understand, and thought it's use on this forum would be appreciated. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Nation:
quote:
Originally posted by seeweed:
Aude is in fact correct. "Prayer not allowed in schools anymore" is just a lie made up by a bunch of preachers to strike fear into the minds of simpletons that "they are taking away our freedoms".
I can remember when those laws were placed into effect. The reason was that most of us didn't want our children subjected to the religion then being pushed which was the "Hare Krishna"s who were in most airports and public places giving away their literature. Even the "Beetles" were pushing that religion as in the song "My Sweet Lord".
More lately, I would doubt if any of you would desire your little Johnny bowing 5 times per day to Mecca on his little prayer rug.
The decision to keep public prayer out of schools is a good thing, whether it be to Jesus, Hare Krishna, Muhammad, or twirling a Buddhist prayer wheel.
On the bright side, you can privately pray all you want in school. Praying privately (in a closet) is what Jesus told us to do anyway.


"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

seeweed says, "I can remember when those laws were placed into effect." That quote illustrates the very problem. For 150 plus years it was understood, Constitutionally, the FEDERAL government has no say in such matters...as referenced in the text of the First Amendment above. This question, along with an infinite number of other controversial issues, were to be left in state and local government hands...you know that goofy little idea the Founders had...Self Government.

And yes, beternU, this is a State's Right argument...I should probably change my signature to Thomas Jefferson's quote calling the Tenth Amendment the "cornerstone" of the Constitution.

Well, yes, BUT, this is NOT either a freedom of speech issue, nor is it a freedom of religion issue. It is an issue that prevents those of another faith than your own from forcing their religious beliefs on your children.
If you have prayer led by a person of authority in a school system, then that person would, in order to comply with the amendment, be required to offer prayers to all known deities.
Better to let prayer be a personal thing.
Again, Jesus told us to go pray in a closet, not openly and bostefully . (and for that matter, I have never found where Scripture told us to "bow our heads and close our eyes")
Matt 6:5 " But when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. When you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen ..." "

The real question is, why would you want public led prayer in school (synagogues), or anywhere else (street corners) , to start with ? Look at what Jesus said about that .

Sorry for the mini-sermon. Didn't mean to sound like Bill Gray.


I never said I would want public led prayer in school...The point...Constitutionally speaking...this is one of the innumerable issues that is left under local/state jurisdication...It's not a Federal issue.

This is by design...local, self-government, with a limited federal government with specific enumerated powers.
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Renegade Nation,

You quoted the first amendment as though it proved YOUR point, which it decidedly does NOT.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone wants to trust the government, in the form of local public school administrators who ARE, without question, an element of GOVERNMENT, to decide when school children shall pray, where they shall pray, what form of address they shall make to the Deity (and which deity, for that matter), and what to pray for or about. THAT is not the role of school administrators or teachers. Yes, they got away with that in many schools for many years, but that does not make it constitutional. The First Amendment, which you quoted, is what prevents government from prescribing the times, places and contents of student prayers in public schools. If you wish to say a prayer, go ahead right now and thank your God that the Constitution prevents such government meddling in the spiritual lives of school children.


And yet another example of beternU missing the point and failing reading comprehension.

This issue like many others were originally to be left to local communities specificallybecause the founders did not trust the government.

The issue isn't whether or not I want school prayer or whatever, it's about government accountability. The founders understood that the more the government was decentralized the more accountablility the people would have. The more centralized, the more power is transfered from the people to the central government.
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Nation:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Renegade Nation,

You quoted the first amendment as though it proved YOUR point, which it decidedly does NOT.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone wants to trust the government, in the form of local public school administrators who ARE, without question, an element of GOVERNMENT, to decide when school children shall pray, where they shall pray, what form of address they shall make to the Deity (and which deity, for that matter), and what to pray for or about. THAT is not the role of school administrators or teachers. Yes, they got away with that in many schools for many years, but that does not make it constitutional. The First Amendment, which you quoted, is what prevents government from prescribing the times, places and contents of student prayers in public schools. If you wish to say a prayer, go ahead right now and thank your God that the Constitution prevents such government meddling in the spiritual lives of school children.


And yet another example of beternU missing the point and failing reading comprehension.

This issue like many others were originally to be left to local communities specificallybecause the founders did not trust the government.

The issue isn't whether or not I want school prayer or whatever, it's about government accountability. The founders understood that the more the government was decentralized the more accountablility the people would have. The more centralized, the more power is transfered from the people to the central government.


Whether as a result of decentralization of government or for some other reason, the evolution in this nation of the practice of allowing public school administrators and teachers to prescribe and control the conduct of religious exercises in public school classrooms was wrong, and was unconstitutional.

You said this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise rhereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

You chose to highlight ""prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"presumably because you consider the conduct of public school classroom religious activity by public school administrators as some kind of "free exercise" of religion. I can think of no other reason for your wanting to emphasize that clause. Now you tell me, Oh champion of individual freedom--
what kind of freedom of expression did Doug, Seymour, or Joan, the little Jewish kids in my 4th-grade public school classroom, have during the reading of the New Testament and the recitation of a Christian prayer, as they, Jews from traditionally Jewish families, were required to stay in that church-like atmosphere of the classroom while a religious exercise was underway that was contrary to their beliefs?
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
quote:
Originally posted by Renegade Nation:
quote:
Originally posted by beternU:
Renegade Nation,

You quoted the first amendment as though it proved YOUR point, which it decidedly does NOT.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone wants to trust the government, in the form of local public school administrators who ARE, without question, an element of GOVERNMENT, to decide when school children shall pray, where they shall pray, what form of address they shall make to the Deity (and which deity, for that matter), and what to pray for or about. THAT is not the role of school administrators or teachers. Yes, they got away with that in many schools for many years, but that does not make it constitutional. The First Amendment, which you quoted, is what prevents government from prescribing the times, places and contents of student prayers in public schools. If you wish to say a prayer, go ahead right now and thank your God that the Constitution prevents such government meddling in the spiritual lives of school children.


And yet another example of beternU missing the point and failing reading comprehension.

This issue like many others were originally to be left to local communities specificallybecause the founders did not trust the government.

The issue isn't whether or not I want school prayer or whatever, it's about government accountability. The founders understood that the more the government was decentralized the more accountablility the people would have. The more centralized, the more power is transfered from the people to the central government.


Whether as a result of decentralization of government or for some other reason, the evolution in this nation of the practice of allowing public school administrators and teachers to prescribe and control the conduct of religious exercises in public school classrooms was wrong, and was unconstitutional.

You said this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise rhereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

You chose to highlight ""prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"presumably because you consider the conduct of public school classroom religious activity by public school administrators as some kind of "free exercise" of religion. I can think of no other reason for your wanting to emphasize that clause. Now you tell me, Oh champion of individual freedom--
what kind of freedom of expression did Doug, Seymour, or Joan, the little Jewish kids in my 4th-grade public school classroom, have during the reading of the New Testament and the recitation of a Christian prayer, as they, Jews from traditionally Jewish families, were required to stay in that church-like atmosphere of the classroom while a religious exercise was underway that was contrary to their beliefs?


I've got to admit, you are better than most at throwing out the Red Herring...

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