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Nash, I have already stated the reasons it is the governments responsibility to invest in alternative energy, as it has invested in past ventures that benefited the country.

The electric car was in it's early stages but worked fine and had satisfied customers that did not want to give it up. You should checkout the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car," before you start spouting off the propaganda you are fed from the Corporate Media. I posted this documentary last year some time
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Nash, I have already stated the reasons it is the governments responsibility to invest in alternative energy, as it has invested in past ventures that benefited the country.

The electric car was in it's early stages but worked fine and had satisfied customers that did not want to give it up. You should checkout the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car," before you start spouting off the propaganda you are fed from the Corporate Media. I posted this documentary last year some time



You stated nothing of the sort.

I'd prefer you state the reason you are here if you have no ties to the Shoals. It would be a lot easier to have a conversation with you knowing you aren't hiding something.

The electric car is not dead. That version simply failed. You're paranoid delusions of a government conspiracy is simply false.

Here's something you can't do, provide proof.

http://www.teslamotors.com/

http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/

Those two links prove your point about the government killing the electric car wrong. There they are.

Pogo, what are your ties to the Shoals?
Man Nash, it's like taling to myself don't you even read what I post? No wonder we are having such problems on this Forum. I didn't say the government killed the electric car. I said the oil corporations put pressure on the car companies and they recalled them. People were not allowed to buy them but had to lease them. They ran fine and were good for local transportation. The people did not want to give them up but were forced too.

Actually the California State Legislature required them. The government was erquiring them.

Back last year when I posted the link to the documentary the poster Karl, or Ed, posted your links. But my point stands. They had an electric car that was in operation, being manufactured by a major car company, I forget which one without checking and had major distribution and promotion with satirized customers. It was withdrawn.

I have already explained how the government has stepped during the past and how it is it's responsibility to serve the country as a whole. When oil prices are hurting the economy they have the responsibly to act. You spout off the right wing mantra that is allowing a virtual monopoly dictate our economy for their own profits.
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Back last year when I posted the link to the documentary the poster Karl, or Ed, posted your links. But my point stands. They had an electric car that was in operation, being manufactured by a major car company, I forget which one without checking and had major distribution and promotion with satirized customers. It was withdrawn.


Karl (Ed) was from Arizona. He had no problem sharing that with us. It made discussions a lot easier and less formal knowing a little about the person on the other side.

So if Karl can tell us where he is from, why can't you?

There was no demand for the electric car and there were plenty of problems with it. It was underpowered, took too long to recharge, and there wasn't enough recharge stations to make it viable.

The main reason was that it was introduced with gas was $1 a gallon, there was no demand. There was no great conspiracy, no one wanted it. Just like liberal talk radio, yet the left wants to force products on people that they don't want.

2010 is less than 18 months away, not like that's in the distant future. Besides, new technology starts out expensive, then drops in price as demand increases. Look at the iPhone for example. $600 down to $400, then $200 for the newest one.

Pogo, why are you on these forums if you have never been to the Shoals? Why do avoid this simple question?
GM is coming out with a plug-in hybrid called the Volt in 2010. Reportedly, it will go 40 miles on a six hour charge and then the gasoline engine kicks in to charge the batteries at 40 MPG. About 100,000 planned for 2010. If the price is reasonable it put a dent in pollution and gas usage. The all electrics are special purpose vehicles for local commutes only.
Howard, we've spoken about how the grid needs to be updated to handle the increased demand. We, as a country, had better get busy with pebble bed reactors, clean coal,mass transit, car pooling, conservation and also reinforcing our grid or we'll face a serious cost/distribution problem.

Toyota and Honda are players here too. I know that Toyota has promised a plug-in hybrid mass produced for 2010 as well.
High powered batteries also contain lead and sulfuric acid. The more power they are required to produce, the more toxic chemicals they may have. When it comes time to dispose of them, where do you put them? That's much more of an environmental hazard than a naturally occurring gas.

We do need a new kind of fuel and we're not far off from finding it. If there is any benefit from these high gas prices, is that it motivates people to find alternate fuels.

Cheap fuel is a necessity, and necessity is the mother of invention.
Politics aside, I think everyone is interested in getting away from a dependency on foriegn oil, even the evil Bush administration.

"The FreedomCAR program, initiated by President Bush in 2002, focuses on developing hydrogen-powered electric vehicles to help free the U.S. from dependence on foreign oil supplies. Five national laboratories — Sandia, Argonne, Lawrence Berkeley, Idaho, and Brookhaven — are involved in the program, each researching different aspects of making hybrid electric-hydrogen vehicles a reality."

From this link:
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2006/re...y-batt/battery2.html
Last edited by Flatus the Ancient
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Originally posted by Flatus the Ancient:
Politics aside, I think everyone is interested in getting away from a dependancy on foriegn oil, even the evil Bush administration.

"The FreedomCAR program, initiated by President Bush in 2002, focuses on developing hydrogen-powered electric vehicles to help free the U.S. from dependence on foreign oil supplies. Five national laboratories — Sandia, Argonne, Lawrence Berkeley, Idaho, and Brookhaven — are involved in the program, each researching different aspects of making hybrid electric-hydrogen vehicles a reality."

From this link:
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2006/re...y-batt/battery2.html

The real look to the future is to see who will come up with the hydrogen re-fueling stations. As it is right now, the cars look great, but if there is no where to fuel them, they will have a limited appeal and range.
My workings in the past with hydrogen have led me to believe it is also very violatile and much more dangerous to work with than typical hydrocarcons (remmber the Hindenburg), so how does this fuel cell work? Is it a gas, a liquid compound? How do they plan to reful it? Will it require a special technician? Can it be refueled in a hurry or require special handling and careful attention to detail? Is the refueling procedure something anyone can do (ie, my wife and kids)? What happens to the fuel cell in an accident, is it prone to explode or is it fairly safe?
Lots of questions have to be answered, but it looks promising.
Hydrogen may may be stored as we store gases for welding -- a compressed liquid in tanks with metal bits that increase the storage capacity. Not much more dangerous than gasoline. But, how are we to produce hydrogen? Not any hydrogen mines around. To produce hydrogen cheaply requires cheap electric power -- breeder reactor nuclear or fusion.
*click the link and scroll down to the schematics*

Honda has home hydrogen station now.

In addition to a solar cell-powered hydrogen refueling station, Honda is operating an experimental Home Energy Station that generates hydrogen from natural gas for use in fuel cell vehicles while supplying electricity and hot water to the home as part of its ongoing research into development of hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future.


Honda has long been conducting research into hydrogen production and supply systems for a hydrogen-based society of the future. At the solar-powered water electrolyzing hydrogen station that has been operating on an experimental basis since 2001 at Honda R&D Americas in Torrance, California, employment of Honda’s water electrolyzing module, which boasts world-leading efficiency, as well as next-generation solar cell panels made by Honda Engineering, has further improved hydrogen production efficiency and greatly reduced CO2 emissions during system manufacturing. In 2003 Honda established an experimental Home Energy Station that generates hydrogen from natural gas for use in fuel cell vehicles, while supplying electricity and hot water to the home through fuel cell cogeneration functions. In November 2004, in collaboration with Plug Power Inc. of the US, Honda began operating a second-generation Home Energy Station, which unifies natural gas reformer and pressurizing units into one compact component to reduce the overall volume by approximately 50%. Honda is continuing its efforts to develop systems required for a hydrogen-based society of the future through experiments with various hydrogen production and usage systems.
Article in Today's NY Times Business Section. This is an excerpt.

Latest Honda Runs on Hydrogen, Not Petroleum
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/business/worldbusines...business&oref=slogin

By MARTIN FACKLER
Published: June 17, 2008

TAKANEZAWA, Japan — It looks like an ordinary family sedan, costs more to build than a Ferrari and may have just moved the world one step closer to a future free of petroleum.

On Monday, Honda Motor celebrated the start of production of its FCX Clarity, the world’s first hydrogen-powered fuel-cell vehicle intended for mass production. In a ceremony at a factory an hour north of Tokyo, the first assembly-line FCX Clarity rolled out to the applause of hundreds of Honda employees wearing white jump suits.

Honda will make just 200 of the futuristic vehicles over the next three years, but said it eventually planned to increase production volumes, especially as hydrogen filling stations became more common. On Monday, Honda announced its first five customers, who included the actress Jamie Lee Curtis.

Honda said even the small initial production run represented progress toward a clean-burning technology that many rejected as too exotic and too expensive to gain wide acceptance.

“Basically, we can mass produce these now,” said Kazuaki Umezu, head of Honda’s Automobile New Model Center, where the FCX Clarity is built. “We are waiting for the infrastructure to catch up.”
We won't be world leaders in technology because we are in the gripes of hungry greedy oil producers who spend big $$$$ on Politicians to keep the status quo. It's exactly what the Founders of this country were trying prevent. The US being held back by the power and influence of a certain technology. The rest of the world is moving forward.
How much is gas where you are, Pogo?

Maybe that's why you are so against domestic oil drilling. You either live in a place where oil is cheap or a place with mass transit where you don't have to own a car.

Maybe if you were spending $50 a week or more on gas like most everyone else, you would have a different tune. Obviously, you are in a place where the prices of gas doesn't affect you very much.
I support the end of dependence on fossil fuels, an old technology that is out of date. We need to develop new safe and renewable energy sources.

The Oil Corporations have stood in the way of progress for their own greed. The price is not going down by drilling more but the profits of the corporations will continue to grow. And our dependence on an old technology will continue.
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I support the end of dependence on fossil fuels, an old technology that is out of date. We need to develop new safe and renewable energy sources.

The Oil Corporations have stood in the way of progress for their own greed. The price is not going down by drilling more but the profits of the corporations will continue to grow. And our dependence on an old technology will continue.


Pogo, how do you expect to carry on a conversation if you avoid questions like a coward?

How much is gas where you are?

Do you use public transportation to work or do you drive? If you drive, how many miles round trip?

I'll answer those questions as well.

Gas is about $3.89-$3.99 a gallon here. I drive about 70 miles round trip a day. I have a 10 gallon tank, so I'm putting about $38 a week in the tank.

You can't just take gas out of the system and expect everything to be fine. A reliable fuel has to be developed and it requires a period of transition. Oil companies know that their resource is limited. So for them to prevent any other fuel from being developed is not good business sense. To ensure they will be around in the future, they have to find and develop alternate fuels for when the oil runs out.

If they don't, someone else will and they will be out of business. Oil companies know that. So to say that they are preventing anyone else from developing alternate fuel technology is pure crap.

When you respond, please answer the questions first, then make your point. Thanks
The Oil Corporations have stood in the way of progress for their own greed. The price is not going down by drilling more but the profits of the corporations will continue to grow. And our dependence on an old technology will continue.

So capitalism is the problem, right? Well it's good to know that Democrats have the solution. We'll just have to get used to the guys in jackboots when we fill up.

http://www.germanystockblog.com/article/80647-nationali...ntentioned-but-wrong

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=67490

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