I found this article on a airline site. It explains what has happened in the commodities sector that is allowing oil prices to climb. Read and weep!
http://www.star-telegram.com/ed_wallace/story/659081.html
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Very interesting article. Kinda wish I hadn't read it tho, now I'm even more pissed off than I was.
OK, I've stated this in about 3 or 4 posts. And, was told how wrong I was. That it was all big oil's fault. 
quote:Originally posted by Howard Roark:
OK, I've stated this in about 3 or 4 posts. And, was told how wrong I was. That it was all big oil's fault.
This is how I feel at my house, I'm the Village Idiot as far as my wife and kids are concerned.
Crusty,
You have my sympathies.
What the article doesn't address is that with the drop in the stock market and the ups and downs lately, investments managers have concentrated more on the commodities market driving up everything beyond what is probably a marketable price.
One consolation, historically, such over priced commodities usually bust and investors lose.
You have my sympathies.
What the article doesn't address is that with the drop in the stock market and the ups and downs lately, investments managers have concentrated more on the commodities market driving up everything beyond what is probably a marketable price.
One consolation, historically, such over priced commodities usually bust and investors lose.
Howard, history shows that you are correct in that with every speculative boom there follows a painful bust. Unfortunately the big boys who engineered the boom won't be around when the craze goes bust. It will effect those in retirement pension funds whose administrators are using an employee's money to drive up prices now and then lessen an employee's pension later. It's a case of getting shafted twice, and with ones own money.
Agree on the pension funds. But, 401(k) account holders deserve what they get. Diversify! Diversify!
Actually Howard I don't remember you saying any of this in the discussions I have had with you on the subject.
I have continually said that the price was manipulated by Wall Street and on the spot market. You would take issue over other tings in my post, like the EPA and refineries and drilling in the US, and Peak Oil but I stated the price was being manipulated. You didn't say you agree with me and I am not sure you mentioned it at all.
There have been other threads on this subject that I have not been in so you may have said it then but this is what the Progressive Press has been pointing out. This began with Ken Lay and Reporter Greg Palast has done a number of excellent pieces on it. The speculation drove up the "Dot.Com" boom and when that collapsed it went into the Housing Market, as a number of progressive liberal economists have pointed out and when they drove that to bust they are now in oil.
I have condemned this Wall Street speculation as poison to our economy but I seem to remember you telling me that they were adding money into the economy, either through investment or savings and it was good. But as I have read they add nothing and only destroy markets and lives.
Just wanted to say that.
I have continually said that the price was manipulated by Wall Street and on the spot market. You would take issue over other tings in my post, like the EPA and refineries and drilling in the US, and Peak Oil but I stated the price was being manipulated. You didn't say you agree with me and I am not sure you mentioned it at all.
There have been other threads on this subject that I have not been in so you may have said it then but this is what the Progressive Press has been pointing out. This began with Ken Lay and Reporter Greg Palast has done a number of excellent pieces on it. The speculation drove up the "Dot.Com" boom and when that collapsed it went into the Housing Market, as a number of progressive liberal economists have pointed out and when they drove that to bust they are now in oil.
I have condemned this Wall Street speculation as poison to our economy but I seem to remember you telling me that they were adding money into the economy, either through investment or savings and it was good. But as I have read they add nothing and only destroy markets and lives.
Just wanted to say that.
Pogo,
That is the problem with people who have framed their whole view of the world thru the eyes of a drug addict. (RUSH IS NOT RIGHT).
The old adage about what is good for the rich is good for everyone else is just not good. We now see that the republican revolutuion started by Reagan has reached its highpoint under Bush. It's not trickle down, it's gusher up, just like an oil well. The rich are getting filthy rich and the rest are left to fight each other for a piece of bread.
That is the problem with people who have framed their whole view of the world thru the eyes of a drug addict. (RUSH IS NOT RIGHT).
The old adage about what is good for the rich is good for everyone else is just not good. We now see that the republican revolutuion started by Reagan has reached its highpoint under Bush. It's not trickle down, it's gusher up, just like an oil well. The rich are getting filthy rich and the rest are left to fight each other for a piece of bread.
Pogo
Two more previos posts on the subject:
One more time! The US oil companies are not making exorbitant profit margins from the selling of fuel. Their profit margins are running from 7 to 10 percent, which is in line for most retail sales companies. US oil companies have smaller proven reserves than most of the other global oil companies. ExxonMobil, our largest, is the 17th largest in the world.
The profits are going partially to the oil sheiks (oil companies owned by nations). But, the largest share is now going to speculators.
This was addressed in the forumthread at: http://forums.timesdaily.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6501027...101002627#1101002627.
The real question is why aren't you supporting transparency for commodities speculation and trying to attack US oil comapnies. Do you think it will be better when all the companies in the US are Shell, Aramco,Iraqco, Iranco and Citgo?
http://forums.timesdaily.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6501027316/m/5321092527/p/3
Two more previos posts on the subject:
One more time! The US oil companies are not making exorbitant profit margins from the selling of fuel. Their profit margins are running from 7 to 10 percent, which is in line for most retail sales companies. US oil companies have smaller proven reserves than most of the other global oil companies. ExxonMobil, our largest, is the 17th largest in the world.
The profits are going partially to the oil sheiks (oil companies owned by nations). But, the largest share is now going to speculators.
This was addressed in the forumthread at: http://forums.timesdaily.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6501027...101002627#1101002627.
The real question is why aren't you supporting transparency for commodities speculation and trying to attack US oil comapnies. Do you think it will be better when all the companies in the US are Shell, Aramco,Iraqco, Iranco and Citgo?
http://forums.timesdaily.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6501027316/m/5321092527/p/3
Howard, According to a post you made in another thread, You quoted the link that is in the first post of this thread. According to that link and the thorough reporting in it, it was deregulation of the energy market headed up by Ken Lay and Phil Gramm ( former senator from Texas and former presidential candidate on the republican side ) and his wife Wendy Gramm ( who i am sure got her job on her creditials and not because of who she slept with) who was over some cushy govt job as well as a cabal of other republican leadership who slid this thing into an 11,000 page bill that Clinton signed.
Ken Lay was a Republican, but examining the funding bills he supported, its obvious he was no conservative.
Just to point out also that the Oil Corporations are recording Record Profits and it is so out of line that Congress held hearings on it.
It mainly comes by purchasing oil at a low price, sitting with it and then selling it when it rises.
Wall Street is making money in the speculative market and casuing the same "instability" brought to the housing market but the Oil Corporations are soaking it up also.
It mainly comes by purchasing oil at a low price, sitting with it and then selling it when it rises.
Wall Street is making money in the speculative market and casuing the same "instability" brought to the housing market but the Oil Corporations are soaking it up also.
The oil companies are recording record sells, but their profit margin of 7.5 to 10 percent is still about the same.
The real money is going to sovereign funds and speculators in the futures market. Does one realize the commodities trading market and the stock market are different entities?
The real money is going to sovereign funds and speculators in the futures market. Does one realize the commodities trading market and the stock market are different entities?
quote:Originally posted by Pogo142:
Just to point out also that the Oil Corporations are recording Record Profits and it is so out of line that Congress held hearings on it.
It mainly comes by purchasing oil at a low price, sitting with it and then selling it when it rises.
Wall Street is making money in the speculative market and casuing the same "instability" brought to the housing market but the Oil Corporations are soaking it up also.
pogo,
Don't confuse the facts with a Congressional hearing, those guys will hold a "hearing" for almost anything, most of which have little to no importance to the American people. Look at the money they have spent having hearings on "steroids in baseball"...gimme a break...first, illegal prescription drugs are just that, illegal. Second if they aren't illegal, then no law was broken, and third if some jock wants to fry his brain and 'nads for bigger biceps, I say let him go for it, the theory of natural selection will eventaully eliminate their consumption of our precious resources.
I have stated before and we agree that the price is being manipulated by speculative investing by Wall Street, but the Oil Companies are not innocent bystanders and their profits are up. They have deliberately closed refineries and not built new ones to manipulate the supply of refined oil so they can buy when the price is low and the sell when the price rises. They blame environmentalists but they are not stopping them from building new refineries, only making sure they are responsible to the communities and area they are in.
The price is also effected by world events and Bush's War in Iraq and threatening Iran has also added to anunstable market. When Bush came into office the price was about $20 dollars a barrel and now it hovers around $100. I have read though that the oil Corporations opposed the War in fear of destabilizing the region so much it would effect their access in the entire region.
I agree to an extent that Congressional hearings are not always up to what they should be but they hold them to show an angry public that they are trying to help. Most of the times they are nothing but whitewashes, especially when it comes to big dollar donors to their campaign war chests. But other times they are meaningful and productive investigations.
The price is also effected by world events and Bush's War in Iraq and threatening Iran has also added to anunstable market. When Bush came into office the price was about $20 dollars a barrel and now it hovers around $100. I have read though that the oil Corporations opposed the War in fear of destabilizing the region so much it would effect their access in the entire region.
I agree to an extent that Congressional hearings are not always up to what they should be but they hold them to show an angry public that they are trying to help. Most of the times they are nothing but whitewashes, especially when it comes to big dollar donors to their campaign war chests. But other times they are meaningful and productive investigations.
Profits are up as sells are up, but profit margins -- percent of profits to sells aren't up.
Yes, 7% or 8% of $20 a barrel is one profit and when the price rises $100 a barrel their profits increase but as I understand it we have plenty of oil and these shocks and manipulations don't necessarily have to affect the consumer as badly as they do, especially when gas is such so vital.
They closed refineries but have not opened new ones which keeps the amount of refined oil at a certain level and open to prices being vulnerable to world events.
They know what they are doing and are not so innocent.
They closed refineries but have not opened new ones which keeps the amount of refined oil at a certain level and open to prices being vulnerable to world events.
They know what they are doing and are not so innocent.
I forgot to add that a good deal of their profits came from buying oil at $20 dollars a barrel and as the price rose their profit margins did increase.
Pogo,
“I forgot to add that a good deal of their profits came from buying oil at $20 dollars a barrel and as the price rose their profit margins did increase.”
US refinery storage capacity for petroleum is about 186 million barrels
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/8_na_8ssc_nus_mbbla.htm
US petroleum usage per day is 21 million barrels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_use_in_the_United_States
Therefore, the oil companies have about a nine day supply on-hand. Hardly enough to profit from speculation. True, there is more storage capacity at the tanks farms where some ships unload and within the pipelines themselves. But, not enough for long term storage.
“I forgot to add that a good deal of their profits came from buying oil at $20 dollars a barrel and as the price rose their profit margins did increase.”
US refinery storage capacity for petroleum is about 186 million barrels
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/8_na_8ssc_nus_mbbla.htm
US petroleum usage per day is 21 million barrels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_use_in_the_United_States
Therefore, the oil companies have about a nine day supply on-hand. Hardly enough to profit from speculation. True, there is more storage capacity at the tanks farms where some ships unload and within the pipelines themselves. But, not enough for long term storage.
Yes, they have about a 9 day supply. This lets the price of oil to be vulnerable to world events on the spot market. That's why they haven't built any new refineries to add to that storage.
Enron and other electric companies did a similar thing in theory when they basically fired repairmen and didn't renew or keep up with old equipment which caused breakdowns and shortages and helped Enron get control and manipulate the market.
Enron and other electric companies did a similar thing in theory when they basically fired repairmen and didn't renew or keep up with old equipment which caused breakdowns and shortages and helped Enron get control and manipulate the market.
So, where is all that cheap oil you said they had in strorage to resell at a higher profit?
First in America Since 1976
Voters have said yes to a zoning ordinance that would result in construction of the nation’s newest oil refinery in over 30 years.
The highly contentious issue has pitted neighbor against neighbor in Union County, SD for months after Hyperion Energy first applied for a zoning permit to build the refinery.
Elk Point, SD city officials, quoted in the Sioux City Journal, were elated over the vote, saying it could bring thousands of new jobs and millions of dollars into the farming community.
$10 Billion Project
Hyperion plans to use 3,292 acres of farm land to build what Hyperion claimed would be a “green” energy center, the worlds cleanest, at a cost of $10 billion
The facility would process 400,000 barrels of Alberta tar sands crude a day, turning it into what the company says is low-sulfur gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, in addition to an IGCC (integrated Gasification Combined Cycle) power plant.
Read below, under “Posts Related to Oil and the Environment“, for an article I wrote last year on the tar sands, and a podcast interview with Liz Moore on her run-in with Syncrude.
At stake, according to company and local officials, will be 4,500 construction jobs, and over 1,800 permanent full time employees.
Opposition Unbowed
Opponents of the plan vow to do anything possible to stop the plant from becoming reality. The “not in my back yard” crowd cites health issues from pollution and other troubles the refinery would bring to their neighborhoods.
While the zoning issue is a big step, the company now has to submit a series of applications to local, state and federal agencies before construction can begin.
Opponents say they have strategies that will slow or delay the permit processes.
Hyperion says it plans to break ground in 2010.
http://gas2.org/2008/06/04/new-south-dakota-oil-refiner...p-closer-to-reality/
Finally, a new refinery in planning, and, of course, eco-freaks, to stop it. The increasing cost of litigation is a major block to new refineries.
Voters have said yes to a zoning ordinance that would result in construction of the nation’s newest oil refinery in over 30 years.
The highly contentious issue has pitted neighbor against neighbor in Union County, SD for months after Hyperion Energy first applied for a zoning permit to build the refinery.
Elk Point, SD city officials, quoted in the Sioux City Journal, were elated over the vote, saying it could bring thousands of new jobs and millions of dollars into the farming community.
$10 Billion Project
Hyperion plans to use 3,292 acres of farm land to build what Hyperion claimed would be a “green” energy center, the worlds cleanest, at a cost of $10 billion
The facility would process 400,000 barrels of Alberta tar sands crude a day, turning it into what the company says is low-sulfur gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, in addition to an IGCC (integrated Gasification Combined Cycle) power plant.
Read below, under “Posts Related to Oil and the Environment“, for an article I wrote last year on the tar sands, and a podcast interview with Liz Moore on her run-in with Syncrude.
At stake, according to company and local officials, will be 4,500 construction jobs, and over 1,800 permanent full time employees.
Opposition Unbowed
Opponents of the plan vow to do anything possible to stop the plant from becoming reality. The “not in my back yard” crowd cites health issues from pollution and other troubles the refinery would bring to their neighborhoods.
While the zoning issue is a big step, the company now has to submit a series of applications to local, state and federal agencies before construction can begin.
Opponents say they have strategies that will slow or delay the permit processes.
Hyperion says it plans to break ground in 2010.
http://gas2.org/2008/06/04/new-south-dakota-oil-refiner...p-closer-to-reality/
Finally, a new refinery in planning, and, of course, eco-freaks, to stop it. The increasing cost of litigation is a major block to new refineries.
I have always said that they keep the supply low and haven't built any new refineries since the 70's. This forces the supply to be vulnerable to world events as the price goes on the spot market.
I have also read that they will buy when the price is low and keep it in storage and sell when the price is high.
As your figures state we are talking about 186 million barrels. That adds up.
I love the way the post is presented, PROSPERITY FOR ALL WITH NO PROBLEMS!!!! against those, you know, those "Not in my backyard crowd."
Especially the part about "....and other troubles the refinery would bring to their neighborhoods." Nothing specific mentioned, just the usual "nay-sayers" against progress innuendoes that is strung on the end of the sentence, like muttered under your breath with a brush of your hand.
The "health issues from pollution" also just a minor matter. Yeah, Sure, those selfish environmentalists, just thinking about the health concerns of everyone over the BIG $$$$$ that can be made by CEO's and Shareholders, who don't even live anywhere near any these things.
Every ecological disaster was always built with the promise of "Thousands of new high paying jobs and prosperity for everyone" but the reality is usually different. It usually turns out it's big profits for Corporations who give big contributions to politicians that help them and the public screwed.
Also, I am sure you are old enough to remember the promises of all the new jobs and prosperity NAFTA and Corporate Globalization would bring.
Also we need the Farm land and we also need to develop safe, renewable energy.
Se my previous posts on it.
I have also read that they will buy when the price is low and keep it in storage and sell when the price is high.
As your figures state we are talking about 186 million barrels. That adds up.
I love the way the post is presented, PROSPERITY FOR ALL WITH NO PROBLEMS!!!! against those, you know, those "Not in my backyard crowd."
Especially the part about "....and other troubles the refinery would bring to their neighborhoods." Nothing specific mentioned, just the usual "nay-sayers" against progress innuendoes that is strung on the end of the sentence, like muttered under your breath with a brush of your hand.
The "health issues from pollution" also just a minor matter. Yeah, Sure, those selfish environmentalists, just thinking about the health concerns of everyone over the BIG $$$$$ that can be made by CEO's and Shareholders, who don't even live anywhere near any these things.
Every ecological disaster was always built with the promise of "Thousands of new high paying jobs and prosperity for everyone" but the reality is usually different. It usually turns out it's big profits for Corporations who give big contributions to politicians that help them and the public screwed.
Also, I am sure you are old enough to remember the promises of all the new jobs and prosperity NAFTA and Corporate Globalization would bring.
Also we need the Farm land and we also need to develop safe, renewable energy.
Se my previous posts on it.
Pogo,
First, you complain of insufficient refinery capacity, then you complain of the complications of a new refinery. Can't have it both ways! Canada uses such refineries already. What great calamities are happening from their present refineries?
You speak of storing cheap oil to sell it later for a higher price. Where? As I showed earlier the 186 million barrels is about a nine day supply. Hardly enough to reap great profits.
As to farmland, one refinery is minimal. Farmland, without fuel for farm machinery, is useless.
Your post contradicts earlier posts you’ve made and ignores computations I’ve posted earlier.
First, you complain of insufficient refinery capacity, then you complain of the complications of a new refinery. Can't have it both ways! Canada uses such refineries already. What great calamities are happening from their present refineries?
You speak of storing cheap oil to sell it later for a higher price. Where? As I showed earlier the 186 million barrels is about a nine day supply. Hardly enough to reap great profits.
As to farmland, one refinery is minimal. Farmland, without fuel for farm machinery, is useless.
Your post contradicts earlier posts you’ve made and ignores computations I’ve posted earlier.
Oh, i don't know what's so difficult to understand, even for right wingers. If you check the posts I have written I have always said that they closed refineries to keep a short supply that can fluctuate with the spot market. You and other posters would right away blame the EPA.It's been going on for a year, at least.
I also pointed out that using your own figure of 186 million gallons when the price continues to rise so do their profits.
When this cycle continues to rise so dramaticlly so do profits and it's called "Windfall" Profts. Progressive writers and democratic senetors who you make fun of all the time understand it. So do Exxon and other Oil Corporations, as well as their stockholders.
It's not so difficult to understand.
But your techniques of trying to switch things around is a typical technique of Right Wingers when they are shown to be wrong.
I also pointed out that using your own figure of 186 million gallons when the price continues to rise so do their profits.
When this cycle continues to rise so dramaticlly so do profits and it's called "Windfall" Profts. Progressive writers and democratic senetors who you make fun of all the time understand it. So do Exxon and other Oil Corporations, as well as their stockholders.
It's not so difficult to understand.
But your techniques of trying to switch things around is a typical technique of Right Wingers when they are shown to be wrong.
Pogo,
Is it invulnerable ignorance or a mindset that will not absorb anything that is in disagreement with your worldview.
Your post:
“If you check the posts I have written I have always said that they closed refineries to keep a short supply that can fluctuate with the spot market. You and other posters would right away blame the EPA.It's been going on for a year, at least.”
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I posted an article about a new refinery being planned and your reaction was not one of relief or an exclamatory of joy, but
Your post:
“love the way the post is presented, PROSPERITY FOR ALL WITH NO PROBLEMS!!!! against those, you know, those "Not in my backyard crowd."
Especially the part about "....and other troubles the refinery would bring to their neighborhoods." Nothing specific mentioned, just the usual "nay-sayers" against progress innuendoes that is strung on the end of the sentence, like muttered under your breath with a brush of your hand.
The "health issues from pollution" also just a minor matter. Yeah, Sure, those selfish environmentalists, just thinking about the health concerns of everyone over the BIG $$$$$ that can be made by CEO's and Shareholders, who don't even live anywhere near any these things.
Every ecological disaster was always built with the promise of "Thousands of new high paying jobs and prosperity for everyone" but the reality is usually different. It usually turns out it's big profits for Corporations who give big contributions to politicians that help them and the public screwed.
Also, I am sure you are old enough to remember the promises of all the new jobs and prosperity NAFTA and Corporate Globalization would bring.”
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From you, only complaints about some catastrophic ecological disaster – from a type refinery already working in Canada, with no such disasters. With no data or facts, you digress to some imagined cataclysm.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your post: “also pointed out that using your own figure of 186 million gallons when the price continues to rise so do their profits.”
Actually I stated, “US refinery storage capacity for petroleum is about 186 million barrels” – not gallons.
The I pointed out that “US petroleum usage per day is 21 million barrels.”
186 million barrels storage capacity divided by 21 million barrels daily usage equals to 9 days storage capacity. Nine days is not enough time to profit from storing cheap oil while waiting for the price to rise (you said $20 a barrel oil in an earlier post).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your post: “When this cycle continues to rise so dramaticlly so do profits and it's called "Windfall" Profts. Progressive writers and democratic senetors who you make fun of all the time understand it. So do Exxon and other Oil Corporations, as well as their stockholders.”
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Again, I showed that the profit margins have remained about the same 7.5 to 10 percent – no windfall profits. if you do not understand elementary accounting, I understand -- many lefties are mathmatically challenged.
Once more, the hugh new profits are going to the oil sheiks and soverign funds and to speculators, not the oil companies.
Is it invulnerable ignorance or a mindset that will not absorb anything that is in disagreement with your worldview.
Your post:
“If you check the posts I have written I have always said that they closed refineries to keep a short supply that can fluctuate with the spot market. You and other posters would right away blame the EPA.It's been going on for a year, at least.”
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I posted an article about a new refinery being planned and your reaction was not one of relief or an exclamatory of joy, but
Your post:
“love the way the post is presented, PROSPERITY FOR ALL WITH NO PROBLEMS!!!! against those, you know, those "Not in my backyard crowd."
Especially the part about "....and other troubles the refinery would bring to their neighborhoods." Nothing specific mentioned, just the usual "nay-sayers" against progress innuendoes that is strung on the end of the sentence, like muttered under your breath with a brush of your hand.
The "health issues from pollution" also just a minor matter. Yeah, Sure, those selfish environmentalists, just thinking about the health concerns of everyone over the BIG $$$$$ that can be made by CEO's and Shareholders, who don't even live anywhere near any these things.
Every ecological disaster was always built with the promise of "Thousands of new high paying jobs and prosperity for everyone" but the reality is usually different. It usually turns out it's big profits for Corporations who give big contributions to politicians that help them and the public screwed.
Also, I am sure you are old enough to remember the promises of all the new jobs and prosperity NAFTA and Corporate Globalization would bring.”
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
From you, only complaints about some catastrophic ecological disaster – from a type refinery already working in Canada, with no such disasters. With no data or facts, you digress to some imagined cataclysm.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your post: “also pointed out that using your own figure of 186 million gallons when the price continues to rise so do their profits.”
Actually I stated, “US refinery storage capacity for petroleum is about 186 million barrels” – not gallons.
The I pointed out that “US petroleum usage per day is 21 million barrels.”
186 million barrels storage capacity divided by 21 million barrels daily usage equals to 9 days storage capacity. Nine days is not enough time to profit from storing cheap oil while waiting for the price to rise (you said $20 a barrel oil in an earlier post).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Your post: “When this cycle continues to rise so dramaticlly so do profits and it's called "Windfall" Profts. Progressive writers and democratic senetors who you make fun of all the time understand it. So do Exxon and other Oil Corporations, as well as their stockholders.”
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Again, I showed that the profit margins have remained about the same 7.5 to 10 percent – no windfall profits. if you do not understand elementary accounting, I understand -- many lefties are mathmatically challenged.
Once more, the hugh new profits are going to the oil sheiks and soverign funds and to speculators, not the oil companies.
More republican fuzzy math that leads to 9 trillion dollar national debt.
Extra,
Do you anything concrete to add or just bumper sticker philosphy?
Do you anything concrete to add or just bumper sticker philosphy?
quote:Originally posted by Howard Roark:
Extra,
Do you anything concrete to add or just bumper sticker philosphy?
Howard,
The problem is that the republicans have had their time to implement their economic philosophy; And the verdict is in. And unfortunately it's not good. It's about time someone turned the tables on the Rush-ites.
Thank you for verifying you have nothing concrete to add!
Now Howard, be nice. It seems your the only one who has "nothing concrete to add" but the usual double talk and insults. Have to do better then that. The republican noise machine is losing steam as the "Reagan and Republican Revolution" is exposed as the rip-off and lies it is. The rich got richer and the American people suffer. Summed up neatly for a bumper sticker
In my haste while at work I wrote "186 million gallons" instead of barrels.
The oil corporations closed refineries to keep a short supply, 9 days, in reserve so prices are not stable.
Profits are definetly going to oil producers but simple math tells me when you buy at $20 dollars a barrel and then sell it based on the new costs to replace it at $30 a barrel and so forth the profits increase. That's business, all businesses will do that. Just like the business I work for. We can't contorl the price but if we continue to sell like that our profits increase.
But my bussness and most others can't dictate to the public. We will be out of buiness. America and the world, runs on oil. Those who control it control the world. Cheney said something to that effect in the 1990's. Not an exact quote but along those lines. That's why we are in Iraq.
Simple math tells me 10% of $20 is $2 dollars. 10% of $30, $50, $100, is a lot more. The percentages stay the same but not the money coming in. Exxon and the Oil Corporations are recording "Record Profits". If they are not making more money why are they recording "Record Profits?
It's the dependence on oil and the whole system itself. They are guilty of behind the scenes lobbying to prevent alternatives sources while they keep the storages low.
Now they want to build a new refinery when the price is high because consumption is greater and profits will be higher, so now they will be eager to open them up. There are people in the area that are pointing out the hazards to the community. If they want to build one they can build it elsewhere. But they want to maximize profits. That's why they won't do it.
New refineries or not the price is not going down, that's part of the peak oil problem, The oil that's easiest to drill is being guzzled up and new prospects, like off shore and deep sea are more costly. Profits will go up and so will the price.
We need to be off oil. That's what's in the American peoples interests, Safe, renewable energy.
In my haste while at work I wrote "186 million gallons" instead of barrels.
The oil corporations closed refineries to keep a short supply, 9 days, in reserve so prices are not stable.
Profits are definetly going to oil producers but simple math tells me when you buy at $20 dollars a barrel and then sell it based on the new costs to replace it at $30 a barrel and so forth the profits increase. That's business, all businesses will do that. Just like the business I work for. We can't contorl the price but if we continue to sell like that our profits increase.
But my bussness and most others can't dictate to the public. We will be out of buiness. America and the world, runs on oil. Those who control it control the world. Cheney said something to that effect in the 1990's. Not an exact quote but along those lines. That's why we are in Iraq.
Simple math tells me 10% of $20 is $2 dollars. 10% of $30, $50, $100, is a lot more. The percentages stay the same but not the money coming in. Exxon and the Oil Corporations are recording "Record Profits". If they are not making more money why are they recording "Record Profits?
It's the dependence on oil and the whole system itself. They are guilty of behind the scenes lobbying to prevent alternatives sources while they keep the storages low.
Now they want to build a new refinery when the price is high because consumption is greater and profits will be higher, so now they will be eager to open them up. There are people in the area that are pointing out the hazards to the community. If they want to build one they can build it elsewhere. But they want to maximize profits. That's why they won't do it.
New refineries or not the price is not going down, that's part of the peak oil problem, The oil that's easiest to drill is being guzzled up and new prospects, like off shore and deep sea are more costly. Profits will go up and so will the price.
We need to be off oil. That's what's in the American peoples interests, Safe, renewable energy.
So, if an oil company actual plans a new refinery, which you also stated the oil companies conspired to limit, you're against that as well?
All complaint and no solutions.
All complaint and no solutions.
Pogo,
That nine day supply is their working inventory. Consider, if there is a crisis in the middle east or storms that prevent shipments to part of the country or cause some refineries to close down. That nine day supply is all that stand between such disasters and a gas shortage.
True, there is fuel in trucks, pipelines and gas stations, but that is probably only another four day supply. You've stated you run a business. Do you have an inventory and how long can you stay in busines without being re-supplied?
That nine day supply is their working inventory. Consider, if there is a crisis in the middle east or storms that prevent shipments to part of the country or cause some refineries to close down. That nine day supply is all that stand between such disasters and a gas shortage.
True, there is fuel in trucks, pipelines and gas stations, but that is probably only another four day supply. You've stated you run a business. Do you have an inventory and how long can you stay in busines without being re-supplied?
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Howard Roak:
That nine day supply is their working inventory. Consider, if there is a crisis in the middle east or storms that prevent shipments to part of the country or cause some refineries to close down. That nine day supply is all that stand between such disasters and a gas shortage.
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That's the point of not building more refineries and only having a 9 day supply. It keeps the supply low and vulnerbale to price rises on the spot market.
With only a small inventory when a storm or disaster occurs, it raises the price of what's left. Every time Bush threatens Iran or there is some sort of crises the it causes panic in the market.
The Oil Corporations are not innocent business people. They know what they are doing.
Howard Roak:
That nine day supply is their working inventory. Consider, if there is a crisis in the middle east or storms that prevent shipments to part of the country or cause some refineries to close down. That nine day supply is all that stand between such disasters and a gas shortage.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
That's the point of not building more refineries and only having a 9 day supply. It keeps the supply low and vulnerbale to price rises on the spot market.
With only a small inventory when a storm or disaster occurs, it raises the price of what's left. Every time Bush threatens Iran or there is some sort of crises the it causes panic in the market.
The Oil Corporations are not innocent business people. They know what they are doing.
quote:That's the point of not building more refineries and only having a 9 day supply. It keeps the supply low and vulnerbale to price rises on the spot market.
With only a small inventory when a storm or disaster occurs, it raises the price of what's left. Every time Bush threatens Iran or there is some sort of crises the it causes panic in the market.
So lets drill in ANWR and increase the supply. That would help drop prices quickly.
Which party is preventing that?
Nash,
The old varmint has contradicted himself at every post. He exclaims about insufficient refinery capacity. I post about a new planned refinery. He exclaims about the environmental problems.
He tells of storage capacity used to manipulate fuel prices. I point out its only nine days. He tries to state the nine day capacity is sufficient for price manipulation. I point out nine days is a small working inventory. He states its because the oil companies want it small to manipulate the market.
He's like a cat chasing his tail.
The old varmint has contradicted himself at every post. He exclaims about insufficient refinery capacity. I post about a new planned refinery. He exclaims about the environmental problems.
He tells of storage capacity used to manipulate fuel prices. I point out its only nine days. He tries to state the nine day capacity is sufficient for price manipulation. I point out nine days is a small working inventory. He states its because the oil companies want it small to manipulate the market.
He's like a cat chasing his tail.
The drilling in ANWR will not increase the amount of refined oil in storage and it will not lower the price.
The Oil Corporations keep the supply low so that the price is vulnerable to world events. Keeps the market unstable. Not a hard thing to understand and I have explained it already.
I didn't say they couldn't build more refineries Howard, it's where they what to build them. They want to build them now but they want to build them where they can maximize profits at the cost of the environment of the local citizens.
Again, not such a hard thing to understand, especially when we have been going over it so many times.
It truly scares me that you say you work for the government. No wonder we are in such deep "Do Do."
The Oil Corporations keep the supply low so that the price is vulnerable to world events. Keeps the market unstable. Not a hard thing to understand and I have explained it already.
I didn't say they couldn't build more refineries Howard, it's where they what to build them. They want to build them now but they want to build them where they can maximize profits at the cost of the environment of the local citizens.
Again, not such a hard thing to understand, especially when we have been going over it so many times.
It truly scares me that you say you work for the government. No wonder we are in such deep "Do Do."
quote:Originally posted by Pogo142:
The drilling in ANWR will not increase the amount of refined oil in storage and it will not lower the price.
The Oil Corporations keep the supply low so that the price is vulnerable to world events. Keeps the market unstable. Not a hard thing to understand and I have explained it already.
I didn't say they couldn't build more refineries Howard, it's where they what to build them. They want to build them now but they want to build them where they can maximize profits at the cost of the environment of the local citizens.
Again, not such a hard thing to understand, especially when we have been going over it so many times.
It truly scares me that you say you work for the government. No wonder we are in such deep "Do Do."
So I guess "big oil" was just stupid a few years back when a barrel was only 20$ and they were making little money, right.
Oh, by the way, if you don't think the oil from ANWR flowing in to the market won't drop the price you need to go back and brush up on your ecconomics.
His "working for the government" does not scare me nearly as much as the fact that people like you are allowed the right to vote....which more likely explains why we are in such deep "doo doo" as you call it.
What part of the conversation you just mouthed do you not understand. You just said "the world runs on oil" and we need it, since there is no foreseeable alternative, but yet your party will not allow us to drill for it, and when we have it, will not allow refineries to be built, thus they be litigated to death while doing so. There is no sense to this logic.
You also build refineries where the oil is available, where it comes to port, or where it is delivered. Unfortuantely there is no place where someone or something is not trying to procreate, there has to be some compromise.
What part of the conversation you just mouthed do you not understand. You just said "the world runs on oil" and we need it, since there is no foreseeable alternative, but yet your party will not allow us to drill for it, and when we have it, will not allow refineries to be built, thus they be litigated to death while doing so. There is no sense to this logic.
You also build refineries where the oil is available, where it comes to port, or where it is delivered. Unfortuantely there is no place where someone or something is not trying to procreate, there has to be some compromise.