Is It Belittling To Warn Of Mormonism's Cult Teachings?

Yes.

Yer a narcissistic, pompous ass. 

Now siddown and shaddap.

Today at 4:15 PM

Bill, you may be here to refute false & cult teachings but only as you see it. You are not God & it’s not up to you to tell someone if they are saved or not. It’s not your call to make!!!

Skippy has told you numerous times that he is a believer in Christ, that he believes He is Lord & King, that He is the Son of God & the Creator of this Universe.

Just about everyone on this forum has told you that you are wrong in your delivery of the Word, that some of us believe you’re wrong in your Once Saved, Always Saved theory but does that stop you??? How does it hurt you what church Skippy goes to, or what religion he believes in?

You’re a pitiful old man that has no room to learn, to give even the slightest thought that you may have some of it wrong. For God’s sake, leave Skippy alone!!!!!

Bill belongs to a cult. Shhhhh. It's a secret.

                     
Mormons Are New Testament Christians, not Creedal Christians

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This post helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's theology relating to baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ, and His Grace and Atonement.
 
Baptism: Jesus Christ’s church must baptize by immersion (Matt 3:13-16),  must practice proxy baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29),  and have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

Early Christian churches, practiced baptism of youth (not infants) by immersion by the father of the family. The local congregation had a lay ministry. An early Christian Church has been re-constructed at the Israel Museum, and the above can be verified. The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continues baptism and a lay ministry as taught by Jesus’ Apostles. Early Christians were persecuted for keeping their practices sacred, and prohibiting non-Christians from witnessing them.

The Trinity:  Jesus Christ’s church must teach that God and Jesus are separate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17), and that they have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

A literal reading of the New Testament points to God and Jesus Christ , His Son , being separate , divine beings , united in purpose. . To whom was Jesus praying in Gethsemane, and Who was speaking to Him and his apostles on the Mount of Transfiguration? The Nicene Creed’s  definition of the Trinity was influenced by scribes translating the Greek manuscripts into Latin. The scribes embellished on a passage explaining the Trinity , which is the Catholic and Protestant belief that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The oldest versions of the epistle of 1 John, read: "There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water and the blood and these three are one." Scribes later added "the Father, the Word and the Spirit," and it remained in the epistle when it was translated into English for the King James Version, according to Dr. Bart Ehrman, Chairman of the Religion Department at UNC- Chapel Hill. He no longer believes in the Nicene Trinity. . Scholars agree that Early Christians believed in an embodied God; it was neo-Platonist influences that later turned Him into a disembodied Spirit.  For example, it was an emperor (Constantine) . who  introduced a term, homousious, which defined the Son as “consubstantial” (one being) with the Father.  Neither term or anything like it is in the New Testament.   Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”   Furthermore, 11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were non-Trinitarian Christians  http://scienceblogs.com/dispat...01/richard_price.php  Thomas Jefferson rejected the doctrine of the Trinity, calling it "mere Abracadabra" and "hocus-pocus phantasm."  The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) views the Trinity as three separate divine beings , in accord with the earliest Greek New Testament manuscripts and the Founders.

Theosis  Jesus Christ’s church must represent man’s potential correctly 1 Corinthians 8:5-6, Psalm 82,  John 10:34   "If we are children (of God)," wrote the apostle Paul to the Romans (8:17, New International Version), "then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ."   "To him that overcometh," says the Savior to John the Revelator (3:21, KJV), "will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear."

Divinization, narrowing the space between God and humans, was also part of Early Christian belief. St. Athanasius of Alexandria (Eastern Orthodox) wrote, regarding theosis, "The Son of God became man, that we might become God."   Irenaeus wrote in the late 2^nd Century: “we have not been made gods from the beginning, but at first merely men, then at length gods”   Justin Martyr in mid 2^nd Century said: “all men are deemed worthy of becoming ‘gods,’ and of having power to become sons of the Highest”   St. Jerome the translator of the Latin Vulgate Bible, (d. A.D. 419), wrote that “God made man for that purpose, that from men they may become gods. They who cease to be mere men, abandon the ways of vice, and are become perfect, are gods and sons of the Most Hig"  Clement of Alexandria said worthy men "are called by the appellation of gods, being destined to sit on thrones with the other gods that have been first put in their places by the Savior."  Origen in reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 said "Now it is possible that some may dislike what we have said representing the Father as the one true God, but admitting other beings besides the true God, who have become gods by having a share of God . . As, then there are many gods, but to us there is but one God the Father, and many Lords, but to us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.”  The Gospel of Thomas (which pre-dates the 4 Gospels, but was considered non-canonical by the Nicene Council) quotes the Savior: "He who will drink from my mouth will become as I am: I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him," (Gospel of Thomas 50, 28-30, Nag Hammadi Library in English, J.M.Robinson, 1st ed 1977; 3rd ed. 1988)   For further information on this subject,  refer to http://NewTestamentTempleRitual.blogspot.com   The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) agrees with Early Christian church leaders regarding theosis.

To paraphrase Origin’s thoughts in the words of  Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie: "There is and can only be one who is supreme, who is the head and to whom all others are subject".  Becoming like God is not saying we will ever be equal to Him, frankly we won't and can't  He, and only He, will forever be worshipped by us.

The Deity of Jesus Christ

Mormons hold firmly to the deity of Christ. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS), Jesus is not only the Son of God but also God the Son. Evangelical pollster George Barna found in 2001 that while only 33 percent of American Catholics, Lutherans, and Methodists (28 percent of Episcopalians) agreed that Jesus was “without sin”, 70 percent of Mormons believe Jesus was sinless.

The Cross and Christ’s Atonement:

The Cross became popular as a Christian symbol in the Fifth Century A.D. The Emperor Constantine first used it as a battle symbol for his soldiers in his quest for the Roman Empire . Members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) believe the proper Christian symbol is Christ’s resurrection, not his crucifixion on the Cross.  [If your son died in a car accident, would you hang a replica of the smashed car around your neck!]  Many Mormon chapels feature paintings of the resurrected Christ or His Second Coming, which give us assurance of the re-uniting of our bodies and spirits. Furthermore, members of the church believe the major part of Christ’s atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane as Jesus Christ took upon him the sins of all mankind.

Grace Versus Works

One Evangelical Christian author wrote of his sudden discovery that his previous beliefs about salvation were very different from those held by the early Christians:

“If there's any single doctrine that we would expect to find the faithful associates of the apostles teaching, it's the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. After all, that is the cornerstone doctrine of the Reformation. In fact, we frequently say that persons who don't hold to this doctrine aren't really Christians…

Our problem is that Augustine, Luther, and other Western theologians have convinced us that there's an irreconcilable conflict between salvation based on grace and salvation conditioned on works or obedience. They have used a fallacious form of argumentation known as the "false dilemma," by asserting that there are only two possibilities regarding salvation: it's either (1) a gift from God or (2) it's something we earn by our works.

The early Christians [and  Latter-day Saints!] would have replied that a gift is no less a gift simply because it's conditioned on obedience....

The early Christians believed that salvation is a gift from God but that God gives His gift to whomever He chooses. And He chooses to give it to those who love and obey him.”

—David W. Bercot, Will The Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity, 3rd edition, (Tyler, Texas: Scroll Publishing Company, 1999[1989]), 57, 61–62.

  The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) agrees with the earliest Christians that grace is conditioned upon obedience  to Jesus Christ’s commandments.

• 
  Definition of “Christian”: .  Christ’s church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)
  But Mormons don’t term Catholics and Protestants “non-Christian”. They believe Christ’s atonement applies to all mankind. The dictionary definition of a Christian is “of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to a religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ”: All of the above denominations are followers of Christ, and consider him divine, and the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. They all worship the one and only true God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and address Him in prayer as prescribed in The Lord’s Prayer.  The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) teaches that good Christians of any denomination will be able to dwell with Jesus Christ in the Eternities.  They do not teach (as some denominations do) that people who don’t worship “their Jesus” are destined for Hell.  It’s important to understand the difference between Reformation and Restoration when we consider who might be authentic Christians.   The terms Christian or Christians occur only three times in the New Testament (at Acts 11:26; 26:28; and 1 Peter 4:16).  In each case these terms simply refer to those who follow Christ.  Early Christians had certain rituals which defined a Christian , which members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) continue today. . If members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) embrace early Christian theology, they are likely more “Christian” than their detractors.

Mormons have a better understanding of Christianity than any other denomination, according to a 2010 Pew Forum poll: 

http://www.pewforum.org/Other-...nowledge-Survey.aspx

• · The Need for a Restoration of the Christian Church:

Jesus Christ’s church must claim divine authority (Heb 4:4-10),  have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14),  must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7),  and must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

The founder of the Baptist Church in America, Roger Williams, just prior to leaving the church he established, said this: "There is no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person qualified to administer any church ordinances; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking.” (Picturesque America, p. 502.) Martin Luther had similar thoughts: "Nor can a Christian believer be forced beyond sacred Scriptures,...unless some new and proved revelation should be added; for we are forbidden by divine law to believe except what is proved either through the divine Scriptures or through Manifest revelation." He also wrote: "I have sought nothing beyond reforming the Church in conformity with the Holy Scriptures. The spiritual powers have been not only corrupted by sin, but absolutely destroyed; so that there is now nothing in them but a depraved reason and a will that is the enemy and opponent of God. I simply say that Christianity has ceased to exist among those who should have preserved it." The Lutheran, Baptist and Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) churches recognize an apostasy from early Christianity. The Lutheran and Baptist churches have attempted reform, but Mormonism (and Roger Williams, and perhaps Martin Luther) require inspired restoration, so as to re-establish an unbroken line of authority and apostolic succession.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .* * *

· "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

The 2005 National Study of Youth and Religion published by UNC-Chapel Hill found that Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) youth (ages 13 to 17) were more likely to exhibit these Christian characteristics than Evangelicals (the next most observant group):

1. Attend Religious Services weekly

2. Importance of Religious Faith in shaping daily life – extremely important

3. Believes in life after death

4. Does NOT believe in psychics or fortune-tellers

5. Has taught religious education classes

6. Has fasted or denied something as spiritual discipline

7. Sabbath Observance

8. Shared religious faith with someone not of their faith

9. Family talks about God, scriptures, prayer daily

10. Supportiveness of church for parent in trying to raise teen (very supportive)

11. Church congregation has done an excellent job in helping teens better understand their own sexuality and sexual morality

. LDS . Evangelical

1. 71% . . 55%

2. 52 . . . 28

3. 76 . . . 62

4. 100 . . 95

5. 42 . . . 28

6. 68 . . . 22

7. 67 . . . 40

8. 72 . . . 56

9. 50 . . . 19

10 65 . . . 26

11 84 . . . 35

So what do you think the motivation is for some Evangelical preachers to denigrate the Mormon Church by calling it a "cult"? You would think Evangelical preachers would be emulating Mormon practices (a creed to believe, a place to belong, a calling to live out, and a hope to hold onto) which were noted by Methodist Rev. Kenda Creasy Dean of the Princeton Theological Seminary, as causing Mormon teenagers to “top the charts” in Christian characteristics. http://mormonteenagersreligiousity.blogspot.com/

 It seems obvious pastors shouldn't be denigrating a church based on First Century Christianity, with high efficacy. The only plausible reason to denigrate Mormons by calling the church a "cult" is for Evangelical pastors to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

_______

Bill is far from alone in his perception of Mormonism as an heretical cultic religion.  You and others scarcely ever address the very substantive points Bill raises concerning Mormonism.  Both Bill and I have quoted extensively from authentic Mormon sources that establish without doubt that the God of Mormonism and the Jesus of Mormonism are NOT the God and Jesus described in the Bible, and are in fact vastly different in concept from the latter.  This documentation establishes the cultic character of Mormonism from the Mormon sources cited and thus we are not simply describing Mormonism as we see it, but as Mormons themselves have described and defined it.  And they have left a very varied and extensive paper trail (some of which they probably wish would go away) of their litany of false doctrine and prophetic nonsense. 

Sure, Bill can be a bit irritating, and I suppose some of you see me in that way as well, but if you are truly in this forum do discuss religion, you should be ashamed of your apparent lack of interest in the very substantive things that we both have posted, documenting the wildly un-Biblical concepts of the Mormon belief system. Seems you are much more interested in having a nice friendly interchange than in "prov[ing] all things" and "hold[ing] to that which is good."(I Thessalonians 5:21).

If Skippy really wanted to be left alone, he should have considered the consequences of his coming on this forum from time to time and, with no provocation,  posting his challenges to other beliefs and his championing of Mormonism as the only true church. Such a gratuitous throwing down of the gauntlet is not entitled to deference by silence that might be interpreted as either agreement or fear to dissent.  This is a forum, after all, and a forum is a marketplace of ideas, ideologies and beliefs.  If you disagree with mine, say so and if I disagree with yours, I will say so.  But don't think that yours, or mine, or Bill's or Skippy's are entitled to immunity from critical commentary.

Bill is far from alone in his perception of Mormonism as an heretical cultic religion.  You and others scarcely ever address the very substantive points Bill raises concerning Mormonism.

***************************************************************************************************************

That might be because we don't care to read bill's and your long rants. All religions are cults, all have their screwed up ideas and practices, and as long as there are no human or animal sacrifices involved why can't you and bill both let the Mormons alone? Please don't refer to Jeffs because there is no religious group on earth that doesn't have child molesters/murderers/criminals of all types among their devoted followers. Thankfully he got caught and got what was coming to him. He will be one of many "brides" in prison and they'll be telling him what to do sexually.

Skippy

Whoa horsee, Whoa!

  Both you and the Reverand Bill are just a couple of bitter old men. Nothing better to do than interpret the Bible and preach to us on what you believe on this Forum. You are both fools by thinking anyone would believe anything you might say. I spend most of my time on the Political Forum and like to join in on the Religious Forum because I enjoy it most the time. I don't preach or attack anyone unless they attack me. The Thread on Warren Jeffs being found guilty firenze and Jenn mistakenly associated myself with this Child molester. I was just correcting them and who buts in but the Reverand Bill. He likes to put myself and my Church down. Then low and behold here comes his partner in the Bible Beternun. Niether one of their churches teach tolerance apparantly. I say I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior, The Son of God the Creater of the Universe. They say I'm not a Christian. I say their bad Christians for being so Judgemental. Judgemental about stuff they don't know much about. So both of you Bill and beternun put on a happy face and wipe away your

face and be thankful you have the right to your incorrect interpretations of the Bible. I'm thankful for the facilitators of this Forum and even for the opposing views. Even though in my opinion and my belief these two ya-hooos are off their rockers.

Skippy

Hi Bot,

Welcome to the Religion Forum, or welcome back -- whichever is appropriate.

You state, "Mormons Are New Testament Christians, not Creedal Christians"

And, beginning with that -- your complete post is false.  How can Mormons be New Testament Christians -- when you DO NOT believe in Jesus Christ of John 1:1?  You believe and teach that Jesus Christ (your Jesus Christ) is a created being -- the brother of Lucifer/Satan.  You teach that your Jesus Christ is created and, therefore, not the preexisting Logos of John 1:1.

So, how can you honestly call yourself New Testament Christians when you deny John 1:1 -- the Cornerstone of Christianity?

Sorry, my Friend, but Mormonism is a cult and a false religion.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Hi Skippy,

You tell Head, "Whoa horsee, Whoa!   Both you and the Reverand (sic) Bill are just a couple of bitter old men.  Nothing better to do than interpret the Bible and preach to us on what you believe on this Forum.  You are both fools by thinking anyone would believe anything you might say."

Okay.  Let's clear the air.  In your words, what is the full meaning of John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, -- and the Word was with God -- and the Word was God."

Please explain those three phrases.

Then, explain the meaning found in John 1:2, "He was in the beginning with God."

And, then, if you can -- please explain this last verse.  John 1:3, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being."

Skippy, you and Bot tell us you are Christian believers, i.e., to quote Bot, "New Testament Christians."    This Scripture passage is one of the most important in the New Testament.  If you cannot give us a proper "exegesis" of this passage, i.e., the meaning drawn from Scripture -- how can you call yourself a Biblical Christian?

What I am sure we will get from you is what we call an "eisegesis" -- in other words, an interpretation of the Bible from some source outside the Bible, i.e., your Mormon sacred books -- Book of Mormon, Doctrines & Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price.

These books are nothing more that commentaries, i.e., books written by men to try to explain their religion.   The overpowering difference between these books and the Bible -- is that the Bible is truly the God inspired Written Word of God -- and your Mormon books are books contrived by men who were followers of Joseph Smith, instead of Jesus Christ, He of John 1:1 -- in an attempt to create a new religion, the cult religion of Mormonism.

So, Skippy, please do share your thoughts on this very critical Scripture passage.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

upsidedehead:  I don’t give a rats behind about Bill’sperception of Mormonism or his brand of religion (Once Saved, Always Saved). I don't & never have believed in the Mormon religion. They used to come to our door until my husband got his Bible out & started showing them scripture. They left real quick & haven’t been back.

The point I was trying to make is why it matters to Bill? God will be the final judge & he will judge Skippy just as He will you, Bill, & myself. Both of you have already killed the horse you started beating months ago. You’ve let us all know you believe Skippy belongs to a cult, you’ve told it for months on end. If you are so concerned about Skippy, & concerned for his soul, pray for him. Don’t keep coming on this forum & showing your unbelief in God by trying to change Skippy yourself.

You have mentioned being a member of the Church of Christ. The COC is not far from being a cult, in they believe they are the only ones going to Heaven. Should people on this forum be beating you over the head the way you & Bill do Skippy?

If anyone has a lack of interest in any substantive things that you & Bill have posted, about documenting the wildly un-Biblical concepts of the Mormon belief system, maybe it’s because we already know it or we take what either of you say with a grain of salt.

If I were posting on the Religion Forum just for the small handful of dissenters such as yourself, Skippy, Jennifer, Deep, and the other few who spend the most time arguing with us -- I would not stay.  As you have said, as far as you are concerned -- "My mind is made up; don't bother me with facts!"   So be it.

However, the main reason I am here has nothing to do with this small gang.  If Skippy wants to stand on the street corner praising Joseph Smith, et al -- God bless him.   But, when Skippy comes on the Religion Forum sharing his cult Mormon rhetoric, I will refute him.  Just as I have for five years refuted Deep's religion of atheism.  

Why do I do this?  Not for the local gang of non-believers; but, whether you want to believe it or not -- there are people who come to the forums to read only.  If even one person comes to the Religion Forum, reads Skippy's cult teachings and is misled by it -- then, I have not done the task given to me and all Christian believers by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Chick, you ask, ". . . why it matters to Bill?  God will be the final judge & he will judge Skippy just as He will you, Bill, & myself."

It matters to me because He tells all believers to be His witnesses to all the lost of the world (Acts 1:8, Mark 16:15).  If we sit on our butts, ignore His command to do this -- and let a soul slip into hell because we did not want to upset the Forum non-believers -- that lost soul becomes my responsibility, his/her soul is on my shoulders.  However, if I tell them about the Savior -- and they, of their own "free will" choose to deny Him; then, that is on them and not me.   I will not risk having to answer for a lost soul if I can help it.

He tells us, in Matthew 28:19-20 to Go, Make Disciples, Baptize Them, TEACH THEM -- "teaching them to observe all that I (Jesus Christ) commanded you."    He is not telling us to teach all that Joseph Smith commanded; nor all that the Pope commanded; nor all that any man commanded -- not even Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens.   No, He told us to share His teachings, and only His teachings, with the world.

We are also told by the apostle Peter, in 2 Peter 2:1,  "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

What could be more destructive to the new believer or to the new seeker -- than to be confused and misled by false, cult Mormon teachings?  Atheism is easy to refute -- it almost refutes itself.  But, with the Mormons misusing the name of Jesus Christ -- that can be confusing to the "babe in Christ" and to the new seeker.

If, God willing, by consistently refuting the false, cult teachings of Mormonism -- we can keep even one person from being led down the wrong path toward destruction -- then, we have fulfilled the task given to us by our Lord, Jesus Christ.  And, that is why I am writing on the Religion Forum.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Skippy says:

"Both you and the Reverand Bill are just a couple of bitter old men. Nothing better to do than interpret the Bible and preach to us on what you believe on this Forum. You are both fools by thinking anyone would believe anything you might say. I spend most of my time on the Political Forum and like to join in on the Religious Forum because I enjoy it most the time. I don't preach or attack anyone unless they attack me. The Thread on Warren Jeffs being found guilty firenze and Jenn mistakenly associated myself with this Child molester. I was just correcting them and who buts in but the Reverand Bill. He likes to put myself and my Church down. Then low and behold here comes his partner in the Bible Beternun. Niether one of their churches teach tolerance apparantly. I say I believe in Christ as my Lord and Savior, The Son of God the Creater of the Universe. They say I'm not a Christian. I say their bad Christians for being so Judgemental. Judgemental about stuff they don't know much about. So both of you Bill and beternun put on a happy face and wipe away yourface and be thankful you have the right to your incorrect interpretations of the Bible. I'm thankful for the facilitators of this Forum and even for the opposing views. Even though in my opinion and my belief these two ya-hooos are off their rockers." 

"Nothing better to do than interpret the Bible and preach to us on what you believe on this Forum"?

Well, Skippy, take a look at one of your posts from the past and tell us that YOU never do anything like that.  Here's a sample from one of your "masterpieces":

"Folks, this is the deal. Can I take your car keys and give them to whomever I wish and tell them they can do whatever they wish with your car whenever they want? We know the answer is NO and the reason is because I havent been given the Power or Authority by you to do so.

      Well folks, there are thousands of churches out there doing the same thing. Their preachers and priests are taking it upon themselves to perform baptisms and performing the ordinance of the sacrament and they have NO Power or Authority from GOD to do so."

Here is a link to the full blithering diatribe

  https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/210000191789892694

When you look in the mirror, Skippy, pot is seeing kettle!

What about you, Bill? Is no one here allowed to refute you & your message of Once Saved, Always Saved? What about those people who come to the forums just to read?

If even one person reads your teachings of OSAS, they are being misled. You could easily let a soul slip into hell because of your teachings. That lost soul is your responsibility, his/her soul is on your shoulders. You will have to answer for that lost soul.

You are one of those false teachers that the Bible speaks of. You are one of those spiritually dangerous people that preach eternal security. You go so far as to say that a Christian’s future sins are already forgiven, even before they are committed. 

.

According to many Bible verses, obedience affects salvation & you can lose it. Of what use is the majority of the New Testament if a person is saved with no possibility of falling away? Most of it is to extort Christians so they do not lose their salvation.

I have never said  "My mind is made up; don't bother me with facts!"  That’s just another one of the lies that you make up about myself & others on this forum. My mind is not made up. I’m not like you, Bill. I’m always willing to learn but I do not take one person’s word for something. I will research, study & find the answers for myself if need be. I sure wouldn’t take your word for anything concerning the Bible. Be careful or God just might knock you off that pedestal that you’ve put yourself on.

________

________

Seems to me that YOU, Chick, have taken a whack at Skippy here and there, as in your post this past April 25, as follows:

"So........His only organization is Mormonism & His chosen living prophet is a Mormon? Is that what you're putting down?    I do believe that Bill's Once Saved, Always Saved, you're going to H*e*l*l, I'm always right spirit has somehow baptized itself with your Mormon spirit & they both have intermingled to the point that you have become a crazy man!!  Is this what we get since Bill doesn't like our playground anymore?"

Source:  https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/210000191789892694

Chick, you say this:  " Is this what we get since Bill doesn't like our playground anymore?"

In other words, you were equating the tenor of Skippy's post with your perception of the tenor of Bill's--birds of a feather, so to speak.

Tell us--do you still believe that Skippy is a "crazy man" or have you found cause to reconsider your diagnosis?

Tell us also--is it really your role to decide for me or for Bill or for anyone else just when and where to discontinue discussing any given subject?  I would remind you that the subject matter of this string really was begun with a post by Bill that replies to a recent nattering post from Skippy, wherein the latter charged Bill with a "crude belittling of everyone." (See opening post in this string). Should Bill or I or you or anyone else just lie down and play dead in the face of such an accusation? Do we not have the legitimate right to respond in this sometimes contentious marketplace of ideas?

 If Skippy wanted to let sleeping dogs lie, he would not venture out to the porch so often to kick them awake!

The Thread on Warren Jeffs being found guilty firenze and Jenn mistakenly associated myself with this Child molester.

************************************************************************************************************************

Actually skippy I wasn't associating you with jeffs. Fire ask where you were in all this. Read what I posted. Maybe I should have gone into more detail, One thing is for sure, when the COC or Baptists preachers are convicted of crimes you don't hear a lot about them from bettern-nun or bill.

http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/news.html

Bill, it would appear that the only religeous thing you have done is take up a collection.  This country is founded on freedom of religeon, which is why people even tolerate you.So go back to your Bible with all your favorite quotes marked in yellow and copy the thoughts of someone you can't even begin to understand. 

Another Bill

 ________________________________________________________________

Beternun, you have got it wrong again.

You say,

Well, Skippy, take a look at one of your posts from the past and tell us that YOU never do anything like that. Here's a sample from one of your "masterpieces":

You said I said,

"Folks, this is the deal. Can I take your car keys and give them to whomever I wish and tell them they can do whatever they wish with your car whenever they want? We know the answer is NO and the reason is because I havent been given the Power or Authority by you to do so.

Well folks, there are thousands of churches out there doing the same thing. Their preachers and priests are taking it upon themselves to perform baptisms and performing the ordinance of the sacrament and they have NO Power or Authority from GOD to do so."

Your Reference is:

https://www.tnvalleytalks.com/d...t/210000191789892694

If you would just take the time to check your very own reference, you would see that it is not my post. It is somebody else’s.

That’s one of the reasons I don’t give what you post any credence. Check your facts before you crack your knuckles. 

Skippy

Word. And I'm all outta popcorn.

Ya better start poppin.

Now this is my kind of Catfight.

http://www.catfightband.com/frame_index.html

Skippy

That post was to Windsong, not skippy. You may be convinced the two are the same but I'm not. I would call anyone crazy that thinks their religion is the only one going to Heaven. I may give my opinion on something but you & Bill are constantly telling skippy he's in a cult. I think he's probably gotten your message by now & doesn't agree with you.

As far as his comment to Bill about his "crude belittling of everyone", he's not the only one to ever say that to Bill, & it's true. Bill's MO is belittling everyone here.

Of course it's not my role to decide for you, Bill or anyone else when & where to discontinue discussing any given subject. So go for it.......tell skippy he's in a cult.

Whether Skippy or Windsong, the point is the same, namely that you have unleashed some pretty caustic remarks at an odious  Mormon forum member. As to decisions of when to stop posting about Mormons and their doctrine, I would suggest that if you really want that outcome, you could start by urging Skippy/Windsong, etc. to cease and desist posting semi-literate broadsides in support of that cult.  Personally, however, I do not care whether they continue, for each time they post their  cultic tripe, it provides an opportunity to counter  their heresies with the truth.

Why should skippy or any other Mormon stop posting on this forum? They have as much right to post their beliefs as you, bill, and the rest. One thing about skippy, he knows how to do it without all the bile the rest of you have.

I would do that to anyone that said their religion was the only one going to Heaven. I don't agree with the Mormons or the COC in the way they believe but it's not up to me to say they're for sure going to Hell. You can pretty much guess by the fruit they bear, but it's not up to me to send them there. If Hell exist, I'll be the first to say that's where I'm going. I don't need anyone telling me something I already know.

Beternun

your a Pompous Ass. Even your invited to heaven with Jesus. He loves Bill he loves you.

He loves RP, he loves Chick and Jenn. He loves everyone even Jimbo. As far as being literate, I’ve corrected one of your mistakes above. Windsong and I are of the same religion but are two different individuals. It’s not a cult, but if you want to call it a cult, If it makes you feel like a man go for it. If it makes you feel beternme go for it. What you think and a buck fifty will get me a cup of coffee. Decaf  HA HA . I like almost everybody on here, and I think some of them like or at least tolerate me. Man could I use a Drink (Double Jack and coke) Ha Ha . Anyway back on topic. Say what you please.

I will always catch your mistakes and bring them to light. Windsong has his veiws and I have mine.

And ****ation is not part of my belief system. Just the LOVE part.

Skippy

Hi Chick,

Knowing what you do of hell, whether you will admit to believing it all or not -- are you truly okay with that?  Even if there is an iota of truth in what the Bible says about hell; even if there is an iota of truth about following Jesus Christ and not going to hell -- are you really willing to gamble that you COULD spend an ETERNITY in that miserable place, when you CAN spend it in paradise?

If you say, "Yes, I am happy with my choice to send myself to hell" -- is that a true response from your heart -- or is it a knee-jerk response to defy Christians because we tell you of hell?

Please -- do not answer my question.  But, please, do, in the quiet of your own heart -- seriously consider what I have suggested.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Here Beternun, I'll help you out.

CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT-CULT

Speaking of that,

  how's that Obama Kool-Aid tasting/

        A little Bitter I'll Bet.

Skippy

Hi skippy,

Yes, God loves everyone in His creation and would love for all to be saved; as we are told in 2 Peter 3:9 -- but, not all will be saved.  Many will choose to deny Christ and condemn themselves to hell.  As Jesus Christ (of John 1:1) tells us, "I am the WAY, and the Truth, and the Life; NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me"  (John 14:6).  This does not mean through any so called prophets, this does not mean through any specific church, this does not mean through any pastor, priest, pope, or church-designated saints -- He tells us that the ONLY WAY to the Father -- is through HIM. 

Just curious, Skippy, you say you want to have a Jack Daniels drink.  I thought that is strictly forbidden in Mormonism.    Are you, maybe, not as devout a Mormon as you would have us believe?

You say Mormonism is not a cult.   But, since you have a different Jesus Christ, since you have a different god, since you have three other sacred books which take precedence over the Word of God, the Bible -- what else can we call Mormonism -- except a cult?

You can keep Joseph Smith, all your man-appointed prophets, leaders, rituals, traditions, and false gods -- personally, I agree with Joshua 24:15,  "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve. . .  but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Why asked a question I'm not supposed to answer? Kinda defeats the purpose, don't it? I'm not trying to be mean, but why would I consider something from someone I have no faith in & do not see as a Christian? But I will answer your question anyway. Not a knee jerk response at all, but a honest to goodness, heart felt response. I've never been one to fool myself about the truth or stick my head in a cloud. I see things exactly as they are, especially something that cannot be changed.

skippy, Bill said you have a different Jesus Christ, & three other sacred books which take precedence over the Bible. I would honestly love to know if this is true? If you don't want to answer on the forum, please PM me. 

Anytime anyone has a different interpretation of the Bible than Bill, then they have a different God, and a different Jesus.  I assume this includes the Jews also.  Bill claims that his Jesus is found in the Bible, but the attributes he assigns to Jesus are not very Christlike.

Hi Chick,

In my earlier post, I wrote to you:  Knowing what you do of hell, whether you will admit to believing it all or not -- are you truly okay  with that?  Even if there is an iota of truth in what the Bible says about hell; even if there is an iota of truth about following Jesus  Christ and not going to hell -- are you really willing to gamble that you COULD spend an ETERNITY in that miserable place, when  you CAN spend it in paradise?

If you say, "Yes, I am happy with my choice to send myself to hell" -- is that a true response from your heart -- or is it a knee-jerk  response to defy Christians because we tell you of hell?

Please -- do not answer my question.  But, please, do, in the quiet of your own heart -- seriously consider what I have suggested.

And, you respond, "Why asked a question I'm not supposed to answer?  Kinda defeats the purpose, don't it?"

No, I am asking you to privately look within yourself.  I am asking you to put aside any outside influence from other Forum members and how they may or may not answer -- and to seriously look within yourself.  This defeats no purpose -- unless your purpose is to ignore that small voice within and adamantly deny God.  And, I do not believe you really want to do that.

Then, you ask, "I'm not trying to be mean, but why would I consider something from someone I have no faith in & do not see as a Christian?"

Chick, it is not a matter of having faith in me or hating me.  Faith in me, or hatred for me -- will not give you eternal salvation.  I am asking you to consider what God is telling all of us in His Written Word, the Bible.

You may like me or dislike me; you may question whether I am a Christian or not -- and, that may sadden me.  But, that should have no bearing upon you taking a look within yourself.  And, that is what I am asking you to do -- put aside any thoughts of Bill Gray; put aside any thoughts of any Forum member -- and look within Chick.  That is where you will find the real answers -- if you will look for any remnants of the feelings you once had for God -- and try to nurture those feelings once again.

Next, you tell me, "But I will answer your question anyway.  Not a knee jerk response at all, but a honest to goodness, heart felt response.  I've never been one to fool myself about the truth or stick my head in a cloud.  I see things exactly as they are, especially something that cannot be changed."

Are you saying that God does not exist?  I don't think that is what you believe, I do not believe you are an atheist -- but, you have to answer that within yourself.

Are you saying that God does exist -- but, He has given up on YOU?  I know that is not true.  God will never give up on you until you breathe that last breath.  Until then, you only have to turn to Him and ask His forgiveness and love -- and, He WILL give it.  There is no sin, there is nothing you or I have ever done that He will not forgive -- if we only will ask.   God HAS NOT given up on you.  So,  why should you give up on yourself?

It is not a matter of fooling yourself or sticking your head in a cloud.  Yes, a person can continue to run from God, continue to deny God -- until after that final breath.  But, that would have to be a pretty foolish person -- to purposely choose an eternal hell over an eternity of love and happiness.

You tell me, "I see things exactly as they are, especially something that cannot be changed."

Chick, there is NOTHING that cannot be changed in your relationship with God -- IF you will do it before that last breath.  There is nothing you could have done or could ever do -- that He will not forgive.  You merely have to ask -- and, HE WILL FORGIVE.

Do you want His forgiveness?  Do you want to be a child of God and live in eternal happiness?   You can.  You merely have to sincerely ask.  I pray that you will do that -- as soon as possible.

Chick, regardless of how you feel about me -- I want to be your Friend.  And, I am always willing to chat -- via Private Message, via  e-mail, or even via telephone.  I do care about your relationship with God and I will do whatever I can to help you restore it.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Actually, the God of the Jews is the same God all Christians worship.  And, the Jesus Christ of the Bible, the Jesus Christ of all Christian believers -- is the Jewish Messiah.  It is just that they have not yet come to recognize this.   But, they will.  That is the purpose of the seven year Tribulation -- to bring the remnant of Israel to belief in their Messiah, Jesus Christ.

However, I am curious.  You say, "but the attributes he assigns to Jesus are not very Christlike."

Would you care to expand upon that?  What attributes have I attributed to Jesus Christ which are false?  I say that He has the exact same attributes as God the Father -- three of which are omniscience (all knowing), omnipotence (all powerful), and omnipresence (all places present).  On top of that -- the Trinity, i.e., God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all three preexisting -- meaning that they have always existed -- and will always exist, eternally.  And, they have preexisted as three equal, but distinct, Persons.

On which of these attributes do you disagree with me?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

This URL will take you to a section of the book "The Kingdom Of The Cults" by Dr. Walter Martin -- the leading cult apologist of our time.  This book is the text book on cult religions.  This link will take you to the section titled:  The Truth About The God Of The Mormons, page 235.

 http://www.waltermartin.com/mormon.html#godmorm

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

You all realize you're arguing over which superstition is the correct one? Right?

LOL

"My invisible magical guy can kick your invisible magical guy's ass."

Is It Belittling To Warn Of Mormonism's Cult Teachings?

Maybe we need a new thread called "Is it belittling to warn of ALL religious cults teachings"? I'd say no of course, but belittling is in the eye of the beholder. Just what is bill "warning" people about?  Bill, even the title of your thread is an attempt to belittle Mormons. But you knew that already, that was your intent.

I answered Bills allegations many times, yet he continues to repeat himself. I and Mormons believe:  that Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. He is the Son of God, the only begotten Son of God the same God who is the Creator of the Universe. I always only use Bible references because I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. I have spoke of minor mistakes in the Bible before. These mistakes are small clerical and miss-prints that are from the many times the Bible has been passed hand to hand for translations. I do not believe that these very minor and minimal mistakes have changed the context or meaning in any way. He is the same Jesus that died for all of us for our sins, to make it possible for us to be resurrected and return to the presence of our Father in Heaven. No difference.

The only difference is in Bill’s feeble mind. I don’t bring it up much for Bill’s sake, do you remember in the early spring when Bill and I were going back and forth about Bill’s interpretation of Genesis. He and his flock believe that the Earth had absolutely no rain before the Flood of Noah. I don’t believe that because I think the earth has been basically the same from the time of Adam and Eve. This includes evaporation and precipitation.

The references he gave for his belief were read by me different. That’s the Main Reason I question any of Bill’s interpretations of the Bible. There is no basis for different Jesus and God theory. My Jesus, everyone’s Jesus is our Lord from the Bible. I don’t try to antagonize Bill or Upsided/ BeternU, I only try to address their false claims. The C word don’t really bother me as much as it did before because they over use it. Plus they never really talk about their specific Church unless cornered. For all we know their in a Cult and brainwashed. I do not agree with everything that the modern or ancient Prophets have said or written. The reason is they are only men that are subject to sometimes their opinions and the same problems the rest of us go thru. Here is the Biblical God and his Son that I believe in as follows: 

John 3:16

16 ¶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

St.Mark_15

13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.

14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more   

exceedingly, Crucify him.

15 ¶And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified.

16 And the soldiers led him away into the hall, called Prætorium; and they call together the whole band.

17 And they clothed him with purple, and platted a crown of

thorns, and put it about his head,

18 And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!

19 And they smote him on the head with a reed, and did spit upon him, and bowing their knees worshipped him.

20 And when they had mocked him, they took off the purple from him, and put his own clothes on him, and led him out to crucify him.

21 And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.

22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.

23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.

24 And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, The King of the Jews.

27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.

36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.

37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

39 ¶And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Skippy

Once more, Skippy, you are at odds with the allegedly inspired words of the flagship book of your collection of scriptures, the Book of Mormon itself! Perhaps you should report yourself to your bishop and ask for prayers and guidance so that you do not again slip into this kind of ignorant and flagrant conflict with Joseph Smith's magnum opus!

You say, above:

"I have spoke of minor mistakes in the Bible before. These mistakes are small clerical and miss-prints that are from the many times the Bible has been passed hand to hand for translations. I do not believe that these very minor and minimal mistakes have changed the context or meaning in any way."

But, Skippy, the Book of Mormon claims that there are errors in the Bible far more serious than the "minor mistakes" or "very minor and minimal mistakes" you acknowledge.  The BOM goes on to say that some of those mistakes are so serious as to cause many to stumble and fall under the power of SATAN!  I always put up the goods, Skippy.  I do not rely on what I imagine Mormon beliefs to be; I quote from Mormon sources.  So here goes; THIS is what the Book of Mormon says about human tampering with the Bible and the fruits thereof:

“... thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

Wherefore, thou seeth that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

... because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13:26-29).”

Now Skippy,  what are we to regard as the official Mormon position regarding the correctness and reliability of the Bible?

Shall we rely on that which is plainly set forth in the Book of Mormon or shall we accept instead the semi-literate ramblings of a blundering Mormon apologist on a local Internet forum?

Your call, Skippy.