Is It Belittling To Warn Of Mormonism's Cult Teachings?

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Well just to name a couple off the top of my head, that Jesus is going to send you to hell, just because of a geographical accident of birth, or that Jesus hates homosexuals and is going to send them to hell, or that if you believe in evolution, you are anti-Christ and therefore going to hell, or that if you don't believe exactly the way Bill believes then you are denigrating God and therefore going to hell, or that worshiping the Bible is more important than loving your neighbors, or that saying you are a Good Christian is more important that actually being a good Christian, or that Jesus sends natural disasters to punish people .....  need I go on? 

Look at the content of 90% of your posts and you will answer your own question.

  Oh, and let me add one more specific - that the Holy Spirit is some kind of ghost.  Until you understand the Holy Spirit, you really don't get it at all.  I hope you can turn it around, Bill; time is running out for you.

Beternun you say,

Once more, Skippy, you are at odds with the allegedly inspired words of the flagship book of your collection of scriptures, the Book of Mormon itself! Perhaps you should report yourself to your bishop and ask for prayers and guidance so that you do not again slip into this kind of ignorant and flagrant conflict with Joseph Smith's magnum opus!

You say, above:

"I have spoke of minor mistakes in the Bible before. These mistakes are small clerical and miss-prints that are from the many times the Bible has been passed hand to hand for translations. I do not believe that these very minor and minimal mistakes have changed the context or meaning in any way."

But, Skippy, the Book of Mormon claims that there are errors in the Bible far more serious than the "minor mistakes" or "very minor and minimal mistakes" you acknowledge. The BOM goes on to say that some of those mistakes are so serious as to cause many to stumble and fall under the power of SATAN! I always put up the goods, Skippy. I do not rely on what I imagine Mormon beliefs to be; I quote from Mormon sources. So here goes; THIS is what the Book of Mormon says about human tampering with the Bible and the fruits thereof:

“... thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

Wherefore, thou seeth that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

... because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceeding great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them (Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13:26-29).”

Now Skippy, what are we to regard as the official Mormon position regarding the correctness and reliability of the Bible?

Shall we rely on that which is plainly set forth in the Book of Mormon or shall we accept instead the semi-literate ramblings of a blundering Mormon apologist on a local Internet forum?

Your call, Skippy

Beternun,

To start with I’m not a Mormon Apologist. I apologize for nothing. I have nothing to apologize for. I’ve said before that our Leaders are not perfect. They say and write some things that are incorrect that is their opinions. But as far as the scripture above in the Book of Mormon 1 Nephi 13:26-29, I’ll break it down for you. Nephi was a Prophet from Jerusalem at about 600 BC. His Mother Father and his Brothers along with another Family were told by the Lord to leave Jerusalem because of the City was about to be sacked as foretold in Prophecy by Jeremiah the Prophet by the Babylonians.  It states:

“... thou seest the foundation of a great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

Wherefore, thou seeth that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.”

  The great and abominable church it speaks of is the church of Satan. It is not any Church

in specific just speaking of those who do evil. The book that is spoken of is the

many modern translations and distortions of the true Bible. Possibly the 

translation you read from Beternun. The great abominable church could be yours Bills or both. So if that is your church and your book, that would be why you preach your

Hatred instead of what our Savior has taught us about Love. Beternun you think your so brilliant. I got news for you, your not as bright as you think. So keep preaching your d*mnation and burning in hell thing. For myself I chose to follow my Savior in his example of love.

Keep Smiling,

Skippy  

Hi Skippy,

You tell Head, "To start with I’m not a Mormon Apologist.  I apologies (sic) for nothing.  I have nothing to apologies (sic) for.  I’ve said before that our Leaders are not perfect."

Biblical Apologetics has NOTHING to do with apologizing.   The following will give you a better, or an initial, understanding of Biblical Apologetics:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
APOLOGETICS
The Logical Presentation And Defense Of The Christian Fait

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/a13.html

Definition:   Christian Apologetics

Apologetics - from the Greek "apologia," a legal term meaning "defense" -- is the branch of Christian theology concerned with the intelligent presentation and defense of the historical Christian faith.  This defense is aimed at challenges from both outside and  inside the Church.  Christianity is under attack today, and it must be defended.

There are attacks from within -- from cults, sects, and heresies.  And there are attacks from without-- atheists, skeptics, and other religions.  The discipline that deals with a rational defense of the Christian Faith is called apologetics.  It comes from the Greek word apologia (cf. 1 Peter 3:15) which means to give a reason or defense.   Source: The Need For Defending The Faith by Norman  Geisler.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Skippy, this is what Head, I, and other Christians mean when we mention apologetics.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Beternun you say;

“WRONG AGAIN, Skippy. You started by alleging that the changes in the Bible are "very minimal and minor mistakes." Now that I have called your hand, you are dodging and darting and claiming that only certain modern translations and distortions of "the true Bible" are laden with serious error. That being your adjusted position, can you do the forum the favor of telling you just which translation(s) of the Bible have only "very minor and minimal mistakes" and thus fit your descriptor of "the true Bible"? Which translation(s) are not tainted by the machinations of the "church of Satan"?

Beternun, don’t need to dodge the likes of you. The translation I referred to in the first post was the King James Version. It is the version that I stated has very minimal mistakes that I believe are so small that the don’t either change the meaning or context.

   The versions Nephi foreseen were modern day versions that are changed to suit the different beliefs of the manipulating clergy. You know like you. You have no facts or evidence to say whether any version of the Bible or Book of Mormon is the word of God all lies of men. It is only your belief and faith that you can go by in this manner. Unless you were there and heard God yourself or walked with Jesus you have nothing but your belief. Remember what your opinion means is squat. You post all these authorities and authors from the internet that supposedly are all knowledgeable. They don’t know anymore than a new born babe about the validity of the Bible. I believe the Bible is the Word of God. My opinion doesn’t mean anymore than yours. What part of the King James Version is True don’t you understand. What does it matter what you or I or even Bill thinks. Everyone on this forum has their own mind and I doubt you’ll change it. Nor will I try.

Then Beternun you say;    

     Meanwhile, think about this. In 1832, the Mormon publication The Evening and the Morning Star (vol. 1, No. 1, p. 3), said that the changes in the Bible were made "by the Mother of Harlots while it was confined in that Church,—say, from the year A.D. 460 to 1400" , over 200 years prior to the translation of the King James Version. Now, Skippy, that sure sounds like the Roman Catholic Church rather than any "church of Satan." It was indeed the Catholic Church that translated and copied Biblical manuscripts in that period and that carefully controlled the distribution of the Holy Scriptures. "Mother of Harlots" is a term commonly used to describe the Catholic Church. Where do you find the church of Satan in all this?

     Probably on a plaque on the side of your Church building. In all seriousness the Morning Star was a newspaper I believe. I do not or ever will consider a News Paper scripture or the word of God. Brigham’s Journal of Discourses is not LDS scripture. Brigham said a lot of things that were his opinion not the Word of God.

Beternobody you then say;

Your attempt to identify the "great and abominable church" with some "church of Satan" is just laughable, Skippy.

Right now I’m thinking maybe it is your denomination is what the scripture referred to.

Then you tell me;

You will not find one official Mormon source or authority that agrees with you on that silly assertion. I have had Mormon missionaries in my home on at least three occasions who argued insistently that the "great and abominable church" that allegedly corrupted the Bible was indeed the Roman Catholic Church. Not once did any of them mention a "church of Satan."You just make this strange stuff up as you go, don't you Skippy?”

  There is not anything about the church of Satan mentioned in scripture

  nor did the scripture mention the Catholic Church. I don’t believe you about the Missionaries. It is not the teaching or the stand of the LDS Church that the Catholic Church is anything but a Christian Church and has worked with the Catholic Church on relief aid and proclamations.

Wrong again my bitter misinformed friend.

Skippy

Alright beternun your now just becoming a bore.

I don’t want to get in a ****ing match with you(prostate problems).

   If and only if your missionary friends said what you said they did so without the knowledge of their district leaders. This is not what I or my Church believe. Maybe their Jehovah Witnesses or something. My sister and her family are Catholic.

  What it boils down to I’m right your wrong. That is my opinion. You think I’m wrong.

That your opinion. We both believe in the Bible. That’s our opinions. I believe it is the Word of God but not the power of God. That is his and his Son’s. So please remember we both believe in Christ. I believe that God is a God that loves everyone even you. You believe that he hates everyone that doesn’t believe in him or conform to your strict version of his rules. I don’t like rules. But I do like Good. Good food, Good people, Good sense of humor and people that can see the good in the World not just the bad. So Buck Up and realize, It’s all good.

       I WIN YOU LOSE!!   That was Arthur from the King of Queens. Funny stuff. Just Remember my friend you wasn't there with Christ or his Disciples. You really can't say you know anything for a fact.

You reluctant pal,

Skippy

The Bible from 200 AD TO 2011 AD

The periphery of the canon is not yet determined. According to one list, compiled at Rome c. AD 200 (the Muratorian Canon), the NT consists of the 4 gospels; Acts; 13 letters of Paul (Hebrews is not included); 3 of the 7 General Epistles (1-2 John and Jude); and also the Apocalypse of Peter.

The earliest extant list of the books of the NT, in exactly the number and order in which we presently have them, is written by Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, in his Festal letter # 39 of 367 A.D..

Council of Rome (whereby Pope Damasus started the ball rolling for the defining of a universal canon for all city-churches). Listed the New Testament books in their present number and order.

In the year 382 .

At the Council of Florence, the entire Church recognized the 27 books. This council confirmed the Roman Catholic Canon of the Bible which Pope Damasus I had published a thousand years earlier. So, by 1439, all orthodox branches of the Church were legally bound to the same canon.  This is 100 years before the Reformation.

In the year 1546,  At the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church reaffirmed once and for all the full list of 27 books. The council also confirmed the inclusion of the Deuterocanonical books which had been a part of the Bible canon since the early Church and was confirmed at the councils of 393 AD, 373, 787 and 1442 AD. At Trent Rome actually dogmatized the canon, making it more than a matter of canon law, which had been the case up to that point, closing it for good.

St. Jerome considered the seven Deutero-Canonical books to be NOT inspired by God, but he was commissioned by Pope Damasus to translate all 73 books into Latin. Pope Damasus considered the 7 DC books to be inspired by God. Later in 1946, after the finding of the dead-sea scrolls, it was discovered that these 7 DC books were used by the Jews in Alexandria, even in their services. This verifies that Pope Damasus was correct.

The Bible I use, Douay Rheims, is the same Bible as the year 382.

Mormons use the Joseph Smith Translation (JST). It is a watered down version of the King James Version, where Smith actually rewrote chapters and made changes to over 3000 verses.

Skippy, Not trying to tell you how to make your argument, but maybe you should

leave the Christian Bible out of it. It hasn't changed until Joseph Smith changed it.

 Iv

Invic,

  don't want to be a smart a*s but if you want to rub elbows with Upsidedehead go ahead.

I've got nothing but respect for most Catholics. As iIve said, my sister and her family is Catholic.

I do not own nor study from the book you spoke of. Mabey you shouldn't comment on something you don't know. I own and study from the King James Version of the Holy Bible. The Sunday School and Priesthood class I attend study from the KJV of the Holy Bible. Emma Smith took the JST of the bible with thier sons after Joseph Smith was murdered by so called Christians. The Community of Christ which splintered from the main LDS Church when Smith died own the rights to that book. So I know the Catholic Bible is not the KJV Bible. So which version do you consider the Christian Bible. The JST Bible is not a complete work nor is it much different from the KJV. So in short, my KJV Bible I guess would be full strength Holy Bible. You know as well as I do there were Evil Popes. And the Crusades that's all you guys so please stay off my toes.

Like I said I won't bother people that don't mess with me. Surrenity Now,  Surrenity Now

By the way I injoyed most of your post Invic.

Skippy

And I 've read your posts Skippy, all of them.

The last people I would side with is Billie jo & upside, so you can't go there.

Again, I've read what you've to say.

serenity is fine with me.

.

    Sorry Invic,

      I know what you said was well intended. I really didn't mean that elbo thing.

     Skippy

First off, let me apologize for this long post. I know how we all hate them. It's intended for Bill Gray & is in response to some things he said to me within this topic. So might be best if you stopped reading at this point,

cause it's long!!!!

Hope you all have a wonderful day.

Gamble that I could spend an eternity in Hell? Bill, it’s isn’t a gamble at all. The Bible speaks plainly of how/why a person goes there.

You asked that I look privately within myself? Logic should tell you a person has already done that to be able to make the statement I did.  What makes you think that any influence from anyone on this Forum  & how they may or may not have answered a question brought me to that decision????  That’s just plain silly. I knew I was going to Hell long before I came to this forum.

You think my purpose is to ignore that small voice within & adamantly deny God? What voice? I’ve always heard that people with mental issues hear voices in their head & I don’t have metal issues. I’m a very sane human being. How can you say you do not believe I really want to do that when you don’t even know me?

Bill, your ego is something to behold. Do you honestly believe that I or any of us on this forum would think that Faith in you, or hatred for you would give anyone any kind of salvation?????? Do you really believe I’m that stupid??

When you asked why would I consider something from someone I have no faith in & do not see as a Christian, I didn’t mean that person could/couldn’t give me salvation. Have you never had a friend or a Pastor that you have confidence in? Someone you can sit down to confide in & share your inner most thoughts with? To share private thoughts with someone like that, you would have to have a measure of Faith in that person to even confide in them in the first place. Do you understand now?

You asked me to put aside any thoughts of Bill Gray & of any Forum member & look within myself. Again, no one here has had anything to do with my thoughts of salvation. I never think of you at all except when I read your post & am amazed of your treatment of the people on this forum. I think of the Atheist when I read their post & some of the things they say make sense to me. They have been much kinder to me than you have. You have not one iota of compassion/love within you. Your heart is as cold as ice & I feel very sorry for you. I have confidence in O No as a Christian & have had private conversations with her in PM’s as I did with vplee before she left the forum, but neither had anything to do with any decision I made.

I have not said that I am positive that God does not exist & have never said I am an Atheist. What I have said is that I’m not sure of any of it. Another one of those times you weren't paying attention or chose not to.

You say there is no sin, that there is nothing you or I can do that He will not forgive but you are very wrong in that.

You say you care about my relationship with God & that you will do whatever you can to help me restore it. RESTORE IT?????  If you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, how can that be? A person would have to lose something to be able to restore it.

Speaking of OSAS, if I were to believe that, then I’m not lost at all & would go to Heaven upon my death.

Thank you for your offer to help, but no thank you. Have a good day.