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Hi to my Forum Friends,

In the discussion begun by our atheist Friend, Jennifer, titled "20 Reasons To Abandon Christianity" -- our resident "atheist in perpetuity" Deep, declares, "Your book (the Bible) says that blind obedience is required for salvation?"

And, my Christian sister, O No, challenges that, "DeepFat, there is no place in the Bible that says blind obedience is required for salvation.  Not one, because it isn't true and you KNOW that.  So stop exaggerating if you want to be taken seriously."

Deeps response, "O No, what, precisely, IS required for 'salvation'?  Is it nothing more or less than accepting Jesus as who he said  he was?  Doing what he said you have to do?   Doing so is a matter of blind faith and obedience.  Wake up."


Salvation?  Salvation is by the grace of God, through FAITH in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). 

 

Is FAITH blind?  No way.   FAITH is based upon me personally seeing God work in my life -- daily. 

 

But, what is FAITH in Jesus Christ?   Glad you asked.

 

Well, that is FAITH in knowing that He came to earth as the Incarnate God; that He was born of the virgin Mary; that He went to the cross, taking my sins and my sentence of death with him, and died for me -- that I might live; that He rose from the grave in three days, and for forty days was seen by and talked with over 500 believers, even eating breakfast with some. 

 

FAITH is knowing that He, on the 40th day, ascended into heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God, continually interceding as the one and only mediator between man and God, for all Christian believers.

 

FAITH is knowing that He WILL come again in the clouds to Rapture His church, His body of believers worldwide into heaven to be with Him during the seven year Tribulation; that He WILL return to earth after the seven year Tribulation to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth, from the throne of David in Jerusalem where He will rule the earth for 1000 years in peace; and, then, that He WILL take all believers into eternity to be with Him forever.

 

That, my Friend, is FAITH -- and there is nothing blind about it.

 

And, finally, my Friend -- FAITH is knowing that, no matter how much YOU denigrate His name, no matter how much YOU deny Him, no matter how much YOU spit in His face -- He will forgive YOU and accept YOU into the family of God.

 

But, there is just one catch.   YOU have to open the door of your heart (Revelation 3:20) and invite Him to come in -- while you are still breathing in this mortal body.  For once you breathe your last breath in this body -- your next breath WILL be in eternity.  That eternity can be either heaven or hell -- your choice.  But, you MUST make that choice while still breathing in this life. 

 

So, until you make that wise move and invite Him to be your personal Lord and Savior -- I advise you to walk and drive very carefully -- and, watch your blood pressure.  For you do not want to suddenly be killed or drop dead BEFORE you make that eternal decision.

 

And, that, Deep, my Friend -- IS FAITH!  ETERNAL FAITH!   Don't leave home without it!

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

If You Died Today

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Bill, you say:

 

"FAITH is knowing that He WILL come again in the clouds to Rapture His church, His body of believers worldwide into heaven to be with Him during the seven year Tribulation; that He WILL return to earth after the seven year Tribulation to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth, from the throne of David in Jerusalem where He will rule the earth for 1000 years in peace; and, then, that He WILL take all believers into eternity to be with Him forever."

 

So now you have placed belief in the so-called "Rapture," the alleged seven-year "Tribulation," and the purported 1000-year reign of Christ in a literal Jerusalem within the category of "FAITH in Jesus Christ."

 

Tell us, Bill, is that aspect of "FAITH in Jesus Christ." something that I and others can not afford to "leave home without"? At other times, you have asserted that belief in this tribulation/rapture/ millennial reign stuff is not essential to one's salvation, but now you have listed that element of faith with other items under the heading "But what is FAITH in Jesus Christ?" If faith in Christ is essential to salvation (and I do not argue that it is not), and if belief in the tribulation/rapture, premillennialist concept is part of "FAITH in Jesus Christ" (as your post clearly argues) it logically follows that one must believe in that eschatological concept in order to have "FAITH in Jesus Christ" and thus in order to be saved.

 

Are we seeing a change in your theology, Bill?  Or has your devotion to the triburapturist fable coaxed out a Freudian slip to reveal the depth of your fanatical devotion to this Darbyite/Scofieldian nonsense that has deluded so much of the evangelical community?

 

See here, Bill, what I am arguing follows very sound principles of logic.  I have described a perfect syllogism, based not on any arguments of my own, but on what YOU posted.  Your "logic" goes like this--just so you won't miss it:

 

Major premise:  "FAITH in Jesus Christ" is necessary for salvation.

 

Minor premise:  Belief in the tribulation, rapture, 1000-year millennial reign is a part of "FAITH in Jesus Christ."

 

Conclusion:  Belief in the tribulation, rapture, 1000-year millennial reign is a requirement for salvation.

 

That is how YOU have explained your concept of "FAITH in Jesus Christ," Bill.  Care to modify that, or have you become so suffused with premillennialist ardor that you now actually consider belief in Triburapturism to be necessary for the saving of one's soul?

Hi BeterCon,

 

If you can get past the Rapture -- which will occur whether you believe it or not -- you will notice that I prefaced my statement with:

 

FAITH is based upon me personally seeing God work in my life -- daily.

 

That is where my FAITH and my SALVATION stand.  Hey, if you want to bank completely on Legalism, not a problem.  I will stand on my PreTrib/PreMillennial FAITH -- and you can swing on your Legalism faith.

 

One day, on the way up -- one of us will have egg on his face -- and, it will not be me.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi BeterCon,

 

If you can get past the Rapture -- which will occur whether you believe it or not -- you will notice that I prefaced my statement with:

 

FAITH is based upon me personally seeing God work in my life -- daily.

 

That is where my FAITH and my SALVATION stand.  Hey, if you want to bank completely on Legalism, not a problem.  I will stand on my PreTrib/PreMillennial FAITH -- and you can swing on your Legalism faith.

 

One day, on the way up -- one of us will have egg on his face -- and, it will not be me.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

____

Nice dodge, Bill.

 

You say "FAITH is based upon me personally seeing God work in my life -- daily"(emphasis added).

 

BUT, when you defined what faith IS, you included all THIS:

 

"FAITH is knowing that He WILL come again in the clouds to Rapture His church, His body of believers worldwide into heaven to be with Him during the seven year Tribulation; that He WILL return to earth after the seven year Tribulation to establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth, from the throne of David in Jerusalem where He will rule the earth for 1000 years in peace; and, then, that He WILL take all believers into eternity to be with Him forever."(emphasis added)

 

To make your point even more emphatically, you add this:

 

"That is where my FAITH and my SALVATION stand.  Hey, if you want to bank completely on Legalism, not a problem.  I will stand on my PreTrib/PreMillennial FAITH -- and you can swing on your Legalism faith."(emphasis added) 

 

That makes it even plainer than in your earlier posts.  Your eschatological belief system is so hard-wired to your notion of "FAITH," so intrinsically wedded to it, that it defines your faith for you!  Just answer THIS, Bill:   Having asserted that "FAITH in Jesus Christ" is essential to salvation, and having included recognition of the rapture/tribulation/millennial reign within your definition of "FAITH," how can you now maintain that belief in these "end times" phenomena is not necessary for salvation?

 

Your attempt to weasel away from the clear meaning of what you posted just does not wash, Bill.  And slinging that old canard about my "bankl[ing] completely on Legalism" or having a "Legalism faith" is both wrong and irrelevant to the discussion. It is this kind of evasive, unresponsive, and intellectually dishonest performance on your part that impels many unbelievers to reject even the truthful material you post.  The pity is that you either can not or will not realize this. 

 

Again  you have deflected from the real question and you have done so in a transparently obvious fashion, as the record of this string clearly, unambiguously documents.

 

Last edited by Contendah
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Nice dodge, Bill.

Your attempt to weasel away from the clear meaning of what you posted just does not wash, Bill. 

It is this kind of evasive, unresponsive, and intellectually dishonest performance on your part that impels many unbelievers to reject even the truthful material you post.  The pity is that you either can not or will not realize this. 

Again  you have deflected from the real question and you have done so in a transparently obvious fashion, as the record of this string clearly, unambiguously documents.

_____________________________

No matter if you call it dodge, weasel (I like that one), evasive, unresponsive, or just plain running away, that's Bill's MO. If he says something is true, there's no way he will engage in a debate where someone could possibly show him he's wrong.

Bill doesn't care if unbelievers reject what he says or not, it's all about Bill.

 

You did notice this part, right?

"If you can get past the Rapture -- which will occur whether you believe it or not".

You do know that it will happen because big Bill said it would?

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by Contendah:
Nice dodge, Bill.

Your attempt to weasel away from the clear meaning of what you posted just does not wash, Bill. 

It is this kind of evasive, unresponsive, and intellectually dishonest performance on your part that impels many unbelievers to reject even the truthful material you post.  The pity is that you either can not or will not realize this. 

Again  you have deflected from the real question and you have done so in a transparently obvious fashion, as the record of this string clearly, unambiguously documents.

_____________________________

No matter if you call it dodge, weasel (I like that one), evasive, unresponsive, or just plain running away, that's Bill's MO. If he says something is true, there's no way he will engage in a debate where someone could possibly show him he's wrong.

Bill doesn't care if unbelievers reject what he says or not, it's all about Bill.

 

You did notice this part, right?

"If you can get past the Rapture -- which will occur whether you believe it or not".

You do know that it will happen because big Bill said it would?

____

"Weasel" is just my favorite term for situations like this.  Bill is the highest-ranking mustelid I have encountered in a long time.  He longs to prevail on disputed issues, but when he is thrust up against the wall (polemically speaking), the disput ation, on his part, dwindles to diversion, deflection, and denial.  Bill says he does not like "arguing," but for one who ostensibly holds that position, he does about as much of it as anyone on here, except maybe yours truly (who sees nothing negative about a good, well-focused argument).

 

Trouble is, the arguments Bill can't prevail on he turns into rabbit trails and red herrings, puffing out responses that superficially might sound  authoritative, but that when examined in light of the actual issue under discussion, turn out to be irrelevant, escapist fluff.

In other words, to kiss, when proven wrong, which is all the time, he acts like he didn't see the response, declares it a "spitting contest", drops the subject or runs to make a new thread. OR if he thinks someone else has a thread getting more attention than his, which is most of them, he hijacks it and tries to make it about him.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

In other words, to kiss, when proven wrong, which is all the time, he acts like he didn't see the response, declares it a "spitting contest", drops the subject or runs to make a new thread. OR if he thinks someone else has a thread getting more attention than his, which is most of them, he hijacks it and tries to make it about him.

____

Congratulations.  You have now fully qualified to be Bill's biographer!

Hi BeterCon,

 

You and I agree on one thing.  My comments and the points I make will NEVER stand up under the scrutiny of the LEGALISTIC THEOLOGY you practice.  Nor will they ever satisfy your shadow, Jennifer's, athiest road test.

 

However, any conservative Christian will recognize them as being Biblically based, and, in my opinion, accurate and in agreement with the Bible.   So, you choose your path and I will choose mine -- and we can compare notes on the way up during the Rapture.

 

Of course, unless Jennifer has a major change of mind and heart -- she will not be a part of the upward bound Rapture dialogue.  Yet, she still has time to change and join the team which has already won the war -- and is only doing cleanup skirmishes.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

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Originally Posted by Bestworking:

In other words, to kiss, when proven wrong, which is all the time, he acts like he didn't see the response, declares it a "spitting contest", drops the subject or runs to make a new thread. OR if he thinks someone else has a thread getting more attention than his, which is most of them, he hijacks it and tries to make it about him.

____

Originally Posted by Contendah:

Congratulations.  You have now fully qualified to be Bill's biographer!

________________________

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi BeterCon,

 Nor will they ever satisfy your shadow, Jennifer's, athiest road test.

____________________________

Gosh, Contendah, I didn't know you had a shadow.

quote: Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:
And for someone that has "won the war" you sure do whine and cry a lot about all the battles you're losing.

Hi Jennifer,

 

Jesus Christ won the war on the cross over 2000 years ago.   I am merely one of the workers trying to help the wounded and those still wandering in darkness -- find their Way to the Light.  Agreed we will not be able to help them all; for some have become so accustomed to the darkness -- that they feel more comfortable and secure there.  The Light scares them -- for it shines on their wounds.

 

Yes, He has won the war.  And, one day these minor skirmishes will be finished -- and, He WILL rule again for 1000 years before doing a final major refurbishing of heaven and earth.  Then, He will lead all who believe into a glorious eternity with God.

 

But, sadly, there will be many who will cling to their darkness until it is to late to come into the Light.  And, they, too, will enter eternity -- but, not with God.

 

Today, many like you are at the crossroad of eternity.  I sincerely pray that you, and they, will find the Way to that Life, the only Path, to eternity with God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

If You Died Today

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Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi BeterCon,

 

You and I agree on one thing.  My comments and the points I make will NEVER stand up under the scrutiny of the LEGALISTIC THEOLOGY you practice.  Nor will they ever satisfy your shadow, Jennifer's, athiest road test.

 

However, any conservative Christian will recognize them as being Biblically based, and, in my opinion, accurate and in agreement with the Bible.   So, you choose your path and I will choose mine -- and we can compare notes on the way up during the Rapture.

 

Of course, unless Jennifer has a major change of mind and heart -- she will not be a part of the upward bound Rapture dialogue.  Yet, she still has time to change and join the team which has already won the war -- and is only doing cleanup skirmishes.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Charlie-Brown_Snoopy-2_CLOUDS_IN-WITH

____

And still you vacillate and avoid the central question I have posed to you, Bill.  Your initial post indeed makes the assertion that belief in the rapture/tribulation/millennial reign is part of "faith" and thus is necessary for salvation.  I put the question to you squarely; I asked if you indeed believe that.  You have yet to answer me.  Instead you drift around on the periphery of the subject matter.  You remind me of an unprepared student taking an exam and encountering a question he can  not answer.  He decides to "fake it" by writing a large amount of text that is related to the subject matter, but that does not actually answer the question posed in the exam.  The experienced professor will quickly catch on and mark the answer wrong.  Well, Bill, I am your professor today and I am marking YOUR non-answers to my question WRONG, and not only wrong, but willfully deceptive.  You have been faking it, Bill, as is obvious to those following this string!

Of course, unless Jennifer has a major change of mind and heart -- she will not be a part of the upward bound Rapture dialogue.  Yet, she still has time to change and join the team which has already won the war -- and is only doing cleanup skirmishes

 ------------------------------------------------------

And again, you sure whine a lot for someone that's "won". Join you and the other "christians" that post here? The thought makes me want to throw up. 

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:
quote: Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:
And for someone that has "won the war" you sure do whine and cry a lot about all the battles you're losing.

Hi Jennifer,

 

Jesus Christ won the war on the cross over 2000 years ago.   I am merely one of the workers trying to help the wounded and those still wandering in darkness -- find their Way to the Light.  Agreed we will not be able to help them all; for some have become so accustomed to the darkness -- that they feel more comfortable and secure there.  The Light scares them -- for it shines on their wounds.

 

Yes, He has won the war.  And, one day these minor skirmishes will be finished -- and, He WILL rule again for 1000 years before doing a final major refurbishing of heaven and earth.  Then, He will lead all who believe into a glorious eternity with God.

 

But, sadly, there will be many who will cling to their darkness until it is to late to come into the Light.  And, they, too, will enter eternity -- but, not with God.

 

Today, many like you are at the crossroad of eternity.  I sincerely pray that you, and they, will find the Way to that Life, the only Path, to eternity with God.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

If You Died Today

Bill, hang in there! You are being heard by those who are searching for something other than the material things of this world. They need to hear the Word and you have given it to them over and over, you are to be commended. As for the unbelievers, they hide behind their father Satan, constantly changing their disguise to attempt to keep others that are lost from becoming Children of Light. Some, who once believed have turned their backs on Christ for the things of this world. Since they are lost they want some company. God bless you Bill! You are being challenged from many sides yet you have held to the truth of the Word. There are many who will never accept the Word. Yet there are those who haven't heard the word who are silently watching and listening and will have to choose their path in this world. Will it be the Glory of God after we leave this world (which we will) or will they worship the evil of this world? They must choose whether they believe or not because by not choosing they will have chose to not believe. Remember Bill that if you are being persecuted for telling others of God's Word you will receive your reward in Heaven.

God bless!

Gingee, please explain the "material things" of this world that unbelievers are seeking. Did you not work gingee? Didn't you gather "material things", aren't you seeking material things still? Christmas is coming, how much will you spend on material things to give, and how many material things will you get? What material things have you given up? Satan?  Satan only exists for believers. There is no more a satan than there is a god. What "darkness", what "wounds" do you think non-believers have? It's only you believers that live in darkness, fear, and have wounds that you think some mythical god will one day "heal". Why can't your loving god give you peace and comfort in the here and now? Why do you have to wait until you're dead? Pitiful pitiful pitiful is all I can say about you and the bill's of this world. You can't live a happy life because you're fixated on another one. Is that what your god wants? That's why as far as I'm concerned you can keep your god and the misery he brings to you.

Gingee, you say:

 

"God bless you Bill! You are being challenged from many sides yet you have held to the truth of the Word."

 

You say this notwithstanding Bill's very obvious crawfishing away from answering one simple question I posed to him.  Bill puts a lot of stuff up on this forum, occupying a great deal of space, but in this string  he will not use even a couple of lines to straightforwardly answer one plain question I put to him about his beliefs.  Don't you find that more than a bit evasive? Why will Bill not meet this challenge?

 

Your champion, Gingee, is jousting with a broken lance.

Last edited by Contendah
Originally Posted by Contendah:

Gingee, you say:

"God bless you Bill! You are being challenged from many sides yet you have held to the truth of the Word."

 

You say this notwithstanding Bill's very obvious crawfishing away from answering one simple question I posed to him. 

he will not use even a couple of lines to straightforwardly answer one plain question I put to him about his beliefs.  Don't you find that more than a bit evasive? Why will Bill not meet this challenge?

_____________________

Gingee doesn't answer questions either.

Hi BeterCon,

 

If you will take a look at my new post titled "Does Saving Faith Include Belief In A Specific Eschatology?" -- you will find a complete answer to your attempted "gotcha!" question.  Of course, neither you, nor Chick, nor Jennifer will believe what I wrote.  But, that is not a problem.  You have your own "alligators" to wrestle with for now.

 

At the Rapture, on the way up, as you are trying to overcome your shock at being raptured -- we can discuss eschatology.  And, I sincerely pray that Chick, Jennifer, and our old "atheist in perpetuity" Friend, Deep, will also be with us.  But, that depends upon how much they treasure their worldly gods today -- in lieu of our eternal God for eternity.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

At the Rapture, on the way up, as you are trying to overcome your shock at being raptured -- we can discuss eschatology.  And, I sincerely pray that Chick, Jennifer, and our old "atheist in perpetuity" Friend, Deep, will also be with us.  But, that depends upon how much they treasure their worldly gods today -- in lieu of our eternal God for eternity.

 

 

Eternity with you would be a hell. Now tell me which worldly gods I treasure. And remember, it's you and your wife that, in their 70s, are still chasing that worldly almighty dollar. Now that said, tell me what worldly things I treasure that you don't.

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi BeterCon,

 Of course, neither you, nor Chick, nor Jennifer will believe what I wrote.  

Bill

_______________________

I can't speak for Jenn or Condendah, but you're correct. I don't believe one word of what you write.

 

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say"?

In case you don't know where that scripture is, it's in Luke 6:46

quote:  Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

 

At the Rapture, on the way up, as you are trying to overcome your shock at being raptured -- we can discuss eschatology.  And, I sincerely pray that Chick, Jennifer, and our old "atheist in perpetuity" Friend, Deep, will also be with us.  But, that depends upon how much they treasure their worldly gods today -- in lieu of our eternal God for eternity.

 

Eternity with you would be a hell.  Now tell me which worldly gods I treasure.  And remember, it's you and your wife that, in their 70s, are still chasing that worldly almighty dollar.  Now that said, tell me what worldly things I treasure that you don't.


Hi Jennifer,

 

And, that, my Friend, is why God gave each of us the gift of "free will."   So, that you can choose to spend eternity in hell to avoid me -- if that is truly your desire.  Isn't God awesome?  He will not force even you to accept Him and spend eternity in heaven.

 

If my wife and I are chasing the almighty dollar -- I sure wish some would slow down so that we can catch them.   I could sure use a few of them today.

 

Wanting material things is not a sin.  Making them your main goal in life -- is idolatry.  That is when the non-believer will make gods of their worldly desires.   Personally, if I were as you say, chasing the almighty dollar -- I would not have retired from the computer industry about 12 years ago -- to devote full time to study of God's Word and my writing ministry.  

 

But, this I can say.  I am far richer today than I was in past years when we had a big home and my wife and I both drove luxury cars.  How am I richer?  I have peace with God through Jesus Christ, I know that all in my family are also Christian believers, and, I know that we all will spend eternity with God.  That, my Friend, is called "eternal security" in capital letters!

 

Would I like to have a nice luxury car?  Sure, why not?  But, will I put that before my desire to serve God?  No way!

 

And, that, my Friend -- is how the old ball bounces.  By the way, you might want to give thought to the ending of my new discussion "Does Saving Faith Include Belief In A Specific Eschatology?" -- it could be an eternal blessing for you -- and your family.

If you are not yet a Christian believer -- I pray that you will take a moment to consider how long eternity will be, and that our brief life in this mortal body is but a blink of the eye compared to eternity.  Eternity will never end.

Given that fact, please take a moment to seriously, sincerely consider inviting Jesus Christ to come into your heart, and into your life, to be your personal Lord and Savior.  He wants to be your absolute Best Friend.  Why not take Him up on this "free gift" offer which He has already purchased, and which He has "paid in full" -- just for YOU?

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

If my wife and I are chasing the almighty dollar -- I sure wish some would slow down so that we can catch them.   I could sure use a few of them today.

 

Wanting material things is not a sin.  Making them your main goal in life -- is idolatry.  That is when the non-believer will make gods of their worldly desires.   Personally, if I were as you say, chasing the almighty dollar -- I would not have retired from the computer industry about 12 years ago -- to devote full time to study of God's Word and my writing ministry.

 

 

True or false, your wife still works. Now then, answer the question, why is it ok for you to chase the dollar but non believers working for a living are making gods of their worldly desires? What worldly desires do non believers have that YOU and your family don't?  Right there is just ONE of your lies. You have no right to say non believers make gods out of "worldly" things or make them their main goals in life. You just show your ignorance with that statement. Our family comes before anything, but like anyone else that wants to live we have to work. What the heck are worldly things anyway? The same things you and all other christians amass but in a larger volume? Look how greedy your churches are.

Bill advises Bestworking: "By the way, you might want to give thought to the ending of my new discussion "Does Saving Faith Include Belief In A Specific Eschatology?" 

 

For the information of forum participants, the new discussion cited by Bill is strategically designed by him to create a break in the discussion in this string, thus partially insulating Bill from actually having to answer a question of mine that he has so steadfastly avoided answering within this string. Go to the new discussion and read his weasel-worded response and my reply.  

quote:  Originally Posted by JimiHendrix:

Another silly topic. How about none of the above?


Hi Jimi,

 

When Deep wrote of "blind faith" -- he must have had you in mind, at least, partially.   You most certainly are blind -- spiritually blind.  And, I am sure you have faith in something.  It is just that you cannot seem to find what it is or where to find it.

 

But, young man, just keep looking.   One day, you may just stumble over Him and find real faith -- LIVING FAITH, saving faith.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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