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ok.. i just learned this from my 12 year old daughter.

she goes to florence city schools.

she is in the band.

they are coming up on their christmas concert.

while she was telling us about it, she mentioned that they would be missing some of their players on a few of the songs.
i asked her why, and she said:

"because they are religious songs, and their church won't allow them to play instruments on religious songs because it's against the bible."

yes, the children in question are CoC.

but i'd never heard this opne before. i was in the band... and i daresay there were CoC kids in the band when i was in school.

my problem is, when did schools turn into such total gutless milquetoasts?
if a kid had told my band director ' i'm sorry, bt i can't play on that song' they would have been out of the band fast enough to leave skidmarks on the floor.

i mean what the heck? what would happen if the kid told the coach ' sorry coach, but it's against my religion to hit curveballs. i won't even swing at em."

or ' sorry coach, i can't play today, jesus doesn't allow punting during lent'

a kid tells the director that they will not play the song for the concert?

well, then that's one kid that shouldn't be in the band. you're either in or your not, you can't pick and choose the song you want to play.

i hate florence city schools.
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quote:
Well, you can't exactly force someone to do something that is against his/her religion and punish them for it.

They have no problem borrowing a Baptist Church for their weddings when they want music. Their preacher has no problem perfoming the ceremony there. The COC members invited have no problem attending. So why would they have a problem playing religious songs?
quote:
They have no problem borrowing a Baptist Church for their weddings when they want music. Their preacher has no problem perfoming the ceremony there. The COC members invited have no problem attending. So why would they have a problem playing religious songs?


So you are lumping an entire religion/denomination into one group? Even inside same denominations, people's views differ, these kids may just be on a more strict path than others.
quote:
Originally posted by hayssco23:
quote:
i'm sorry, bt i can't play on that song' they would have been out of the band fast enough to leave skidmarks on the floor.


Well, you can't exactly force someone to do something that is against his/her religion and punish them for it.


it's not a matter of punishing them... it's a matter of either you are part of the team, or you are not. if you are, you play what we play. if you don't play what we play, then you can't be on the team.
they aren't special because their parents are retards. they shouldn't be allowed to participate at all, if they are only going to participate a little.

if cam newton had told his high school coach "coach, my mom's religion won't allow me to ever practive or play on a saturday, and my dad's says i can't practice or play on a thursday."

do you think we'd have ever heard this kids name? no, cause the coach would have never put him on the team.

when did we reach the point where the students tell the teachers what material they will work on, and the teachers have to accept it?

all for one, one for all, or get out.

it's just disgusting.
quote:
Originally posted by hayssco23:
quote:
Well, Florence does have an avowed atheist on the school board. Need I say more?


And that sure as heck doesn't have anything to do with it.


it most absoloutly does not have anything to do with it.. the problem isn't athiesim, the problem is fundemental christians... well, the church of christ.. not exactly christians...

the problem is too much religion, not a lack thereof.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi all,

Well, Florence does have an avowed atheist on the school board. Need I say more?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yes Bill, you need to say more.

What in the world does that have to do with children not playing x-mas music in school due to their religion?

Hi Jan,

Not sure if I can explain this so that an atheist can understand. But, duh, let me try.

Christmas music at Christmas means CHRIST, a word which is anathema to all atheists.

A devoted atheist on the Florence School Board. School band playing CHRIST based music -- devoted atheist gets ants in his pants and is very uncomfortable knowing that Florence kids are allowed to play CHRIST music.

Are you getting the picture yet?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
If I had to come up with one reason which you would all understand as to why I'm not a Christian, it's Bill Gray. I'll happily avoid any heaven that would have him.


Aww.....slimshady,
Please don't feel that way. He does not represent the majority of Christian people. He is an embarassment (gasp) to those who sincerely strive to live in God's graces.
Sad but true.
I cringe when I read the smug remarks and snide garbage- because it does just as you say- drive people further away from Faith.
I am not going to try to convert you (lol) but please, please don't allow this one man to be your image of Christianity.
Cheers.
My dear Veep,

I said "if I only had to come up with one".

You know I have a thousand reasons, but he's the one everyone here would understand.

Serious question: How could someone who studies the Prince of Peace so assiduously become so bitter and hateful? Why doesn't christianity produce better people? How can one steep one's self in it and come out as sour as he?

Same question for Islam. Well, not really, we all know when the Qu'ran is insufficient, the sword solves the problem.


nsns
I believe the answer lies in the Fundamentalist movement. They are self righteous, in that they feel they are already saints (or will be when they die), and they believe their sinfulness is not visible to God. They subscribe to the "once saved always saved" my *&#* don't stink holier than thou doctrines.

This kind of immunity and superiority could make one callous and cold.

Now, clearly when a man such as this hypothetical individual studies the Word of God, he is probably not being open to the Holy Spirit to allow the MESSAGE into his heart.

In short, it's a very self indulgent "religion" and does not require any consequences to actions.
All true, from what I've seen, but still, how does one study Christianity in such detail and not have it transform one from one's evil ways?

Is it that ineffective?

If I can find this: Psalm 10:4

4 In his pride the wicked does not seek him;

in all his thoughts there is no room for God.


So could a believer.

I must admit that my atheism does not lead me to hate anyone. You know I don't hate you, but have enough respect for you to challenge you fairly. But religions do lead to hatred so often.

Is it the sense of entitlement that comes from being "saved" or "blessed"? Is it the fear that comes when scripture (and, sigh, tradition) are so clear to one that when another does not come to the same conclusion that one is in fear of being wrong?

I'm asking.


nsns
Interesting questions...
You know, there has been occasion on which someone has made me so irate that I have felt strong strong dislike (ok, maybe cussing out- kinda hate) . People are so passionate about their religions- anytime you enter into a topic of religion you have to expect inflammatory responses and anger.
My grandmother used to say it is not polite to discuss politics or religion.
Maybe she was right.... Wink

"Is it the sense of entitlement that comes from being "saved" or "blessed"? "

.....who knows. Maybe. You know if you think you are a shoo-in for Heaven, and your earthly life is of no consequence, than I suppose it would be easy to adopt a sense of entitlement and superiority.

Jesus, on the other hand, was humble. Surrounded Himself with sinners. Helped people learn to recognize and seek forgiveness for their sinful ways. He loved them.
HUMONGALOID difference in approach. We as Christians are called to be "Christ-like"- strive to follow the example of Jesus. (charity, humility, etc)
I daresay Jesus was more effective.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi all,

Well, Florence does have an avowed atheist on the school board. Need I say more?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yes Bill, you need to say more.

What in the world does that have to do with children not playing x-mas music in school due to their religion?

Hi Jan,

Not sure if I can explain this so that an atheist can understand. But, duh, let me try.

Christmas music at Christmas means CHRIST, a word which is anathema to all atheists.

A devoted atheist on the Florence School Board. School band playing CHRIST based music -- devoted atheist gets ants in his pants and is very uncomfortable knowing that Florence kids are allowed to play CHRIST music.

Are you getting the picture yet?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


Ok,

You obviously didn't read the original post Bill.

I hope that is the problem here, or you are completely bonkers.

Let go through this one step at a time for YOU.

His daughter was talking about the Christmas program her school band was putting on.

She indicated that on some of the CHRISTIAN Christmas songs they would not have all their players.

Reason?

It was against their (those players sitting out) religious beliefs to play jesus songs with instruments (I am assuming since they are COC)

The school band is PLAYING CHRISTIAN CHRISTMAS songs Bill.

The children that are not playing are not being penalized for not playing with their band members because it would infringe upon their religious rights.

Jesus Christ man!

The fake persecution complex you have is unbelievable.
I have to jump in on this also. Mr. Gray, how in the world could you take the OP's point and turn it into a salvo against one of BOE members? It's true, you do have a comprehension issue.

I know the person that you refer to and have always found him to be an honorable man. I also believe that he was elected to the position because of his abilities, not his beliefs. I am confident that he does not have an "agenda" to spread atheism in our schools.

In addition, I belief that he is trying his level best to improve our education system, period.

Please do try to follow what's being said and if you don't mind, I would appreciate it if you would apologize to Jank for "talking down to her". Okay? Thanks..............
quote:
Originally posted by uwsoftball:
I have to jump in on this also. Mr. Gray, how in the world could you take the OP's point and turn it into a salvo against one of BOE members? It's true, you do have a comprehension issue.

I know the person that you refer to and have always found him to be an honorable man. I also believe that he was elected to the position because of his abilities, not his beliefs. I am confident that he does not have an "agenda" to spread atheism in our schools.

In addition, I belief that he is trying his level best to improve our education system, period.

Please do try to follow what's being said and if you don't mind, I would appreciate it if you would apologize to Jank for "talking down to her". Okay? Thanks..............

Hi UW,

First, I am not sure where you thought I "talked down to Jan." Although with the many names and allusions she has attached to my name -- it would be easy for a person to do.

You say you know our Fishy Friend -- but, I am not sure you really KNOW our Friend. The reason I came on the TD Forums in January 2007 was because he and Deep were dominating the Forum with their atheist evangelism. He has many times adamantly declared his strong atheistic views -- and that NOTHING but Darwinian Evolution should be taught in schools. And, he has adamantly disavowed ANY mentions of God, Christ, or Christianity in schools -- in any way, means, or capacity.

And, over the years, he became so nasty with other Forum members that, even when they wanted to meet, have coffee, and discuss their differences -- he flatly refused. His excuse was that because he had been so nasty to folks, and because he had been so hard nosed about his atheistic views -- he was afraid to meet anyone face to face. And, he told us that he wanted to get into local politics and did not want his strong atheist view to be a handicap.

That aside, for several years he was the master of back stabbing and underhanded tricks. First, he attempted to send an e-mail to my wife claiming he was a woman with whom I had an affair at a computer convention. But, of course, he was so smart -- that he sent the e-mail to my e-mail address. It was comical, for my wife has always accompanied me to all computer conventions. These were our way of having a vacation while still working. When I showed her his e-mail, she laughed at his silliness and at his attempt at deceit.

Then, there are the times when he tried to use my photo as his avatar on the Forums. And, the times when he posted writings on the Forum and signed my name -- in an attempt to make people think it came from me. And, there was the time when he created a phony posting name -- using my name with a period in it to get it through the computer -- and began to post very nasty, negative writings, supposedly coming from me. These problems I easily took care of with the help of the TD mods.

While I have, for almost four years, crossed swords with Deep -- I give him credit. He has called me the normal atheist names, i.e, stupid, uneducated, liar, etc., in his atheist attempt to spread Dawkinisms on the Forum -- but, Deep never did any of the deceitful things our other Friend so often attempted.

Therefore, even though I disagree on virtually everything Deep writes -- I do believe he is an above board person. On the other hand, I believe our Fishy Friend is just a deceitful back stabber. As the old television detective, Sgt. Joe Friday, used to say, "Just the facts, ma'am -- just the facts."

But, UW, this is the "honorable" person you think I have dishonored. Am I out to denigrate our Friend? No. It is only that whenever anyone mentions the Florence school system and Christmas in the same breath -- my fondest thoughts become Fishy.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi all,

Well, Florence does have an avowed atheist on the school board. Need I say more?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

Yes Bill, you need to say more.

What in the world does that have to do with children not playing x-mas music in school due to their religion?

Hi Jan,

Not sure if I can explain this so that an atheist can understand. But, duh, let me try.

Christmas music at Christmas means CHRIST, a word which is anathema to all atheists.

A devoted atheist on the Florence School Board. School band playing CHRIST based music -- devoted atheist gets ants in his pants and is very uncomfortable knowing that Florence kids are allowed to play CHRIST music.

Are you getting the picture yet?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


not sure if i can explain this so a Fundy will understand, but Duh, let me try...

the student's parents are not allowing the children to play the religious type christmas songs in the band concert ( angels we have heard on high.. hark, the herald angels sing... god rest ye merry gentlmen.. etc) because the parents say religious songs are only for church and must not be played on any insruments.. only sung ... and lemmie tell you, CoC congregations can't sing. if i were god that noise would tick me off. no wonder people say he doesn't answer prayers.. the CoC has deafened him with 100 years of screeches and caterwauling.

this isn't athiests saying ' no religious songs'
the school board doesn't have anything to do with it except for being to cowardly to stand up to super-religious idiot parents.
this is overly religious nut job parents saying ' you can't play that because god says no intruments.', not athiests saying ' you can't play religious based christmas carols.


once again, bill, you are 100% wrong on the topic at hand, and have taken exactly the wrong position on the issue, and once again ended up sounding liek a total buffoon.
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
New digression: What was a public high school doing playing religious music anyway?

Maybe the ACLU would defend the CoC on this one.


nsns


fair queston .. maybe i didn't make it clear enough... if so, my apologies.

christmas concert... any christmas carol that is written form a religious point instead of secular ( ie, silent night, instead of jingle bell rock) is what the parents are objecting to their children playing, from the basis that it the song involves religion, it should be perforned only in church and only accapella, because intstruments are De Debbil

sorry for hte confusion
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
Hi all,
Well, Florence does have an avowed atheist on the school board. Need I say more?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
Yes Bill, you need to say more.

What in the world does that have to do with children not playing x-mas music in school due to their religion?


Jank, Bill is nuts, as we all know! But even I would like to know how he gets that a school board member would have anything to do with a child's religion.
Bill,

You don't KNOW the person which you keep persecuting here in the forum. I and apparently others here do. He is a good man and a very good school board member. He cares about the education of our children and does his job very well.

It is absolutely none of your business what goes on in our local school board. You are not a citizen of our town, nor have you ever been. You live about as far away from this area as a person can get and still live on the same continent.

You have no proof of what you are accusing this person of doing yet you have repeated these accusations many times before. You come on here using your real name and your information is readily available to anyone who wants to find it. You have had pictures of yourself and wife on the Internet. Anyone could do these things you say were done to you. If you don't want others to have access to you and your family then do as the rest of us and keep your personal information private. Otherwise stop your whining and moaning when your name or a picture is used .

You stir up more trouble here on this forum than anyone else ever has. This was not a subject of our local school board members, but you took the opportunity to try and turn it into a way of sticking your nose into our local business and insinuate an untruth about a man you do not personally know.

Keep on shining that christian light Bill! You get better and better at it each and every day.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
First, I am not sure where you thought I "talked down to Jan."


Well "DUH", how about the "DUH" part of the your post to her, and then the "are you getting the picture". Wow, your comprehension failure even extends to your own posts. Amazing! But please, don't fret about it. I really didn't expect you to acknowledge it in the first place.

quote:
You say you know our Fishy Friend -- but, I am not sure you really KNOW our Friend.


yep, for about twenty years now.

quote:
And, he has adamantly disavowed ANY mentions of God, Christ, or Christianity in schools -- in any way, means, or capacity.


Yes, from the stand point of the "separation clause", which I as a "believer" also support. Sorry dude, but I had rather that the "gummmit" stay out of my religious beliefs.


quote:
Then, there are the times when he tried to use my photo as his avatar on the Forums. And, the times when he posted writings on the Forum and signed my name -- in an attempt to make people think it came from me. And, there was the time when he created a phony posting name -- using my name with a period in it to get it through the computer -- and began to post very nasty, negative writings, supposedly coming from me.


Satire is a wonderful thing, that is if you "comprehend" it Wink

quote:
It is only that whenever anyone mentions the Florence school system and Christmas in the same breath -- my fondest thoughts become Fishy.


Obsessed Much?
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
UW,

Thanks for the support, but I don't want or expect an apology from Bill. He is not capable of admitting when he is wrong. It would not be sincere if he offered it and to tell you the truth I could not care less what he thinks of me.


Yeah, I know Jank. But there are some things that you just can't ignore and you have to stand up and say "that ain't right" Wink
quote:
Originally posted by Not Shallow Not Slim:
New digression: What was a public high school doing playing religious music anyway?

Maybe the ACLU would defend the CoC on this one.


nsns


nah. if "religion" is done in a more or less secular manner, its perfectly acceptable. christmas music is a form of art. its entertainment. i imagine that it could be argued that the instructor is coercing the children into religious indoctrination but that would be a stretch. by the same logic, it could be argued that playing beetles music is coercing them into using drugs. a bit of a stretch with a small bit of logic to it. i jsut don't think the ACLU would be interested.

by the same token, the school could not force a student to comply with playing christmas music in the band. this is nothing new to band directors of course. the CoC has been around for a while so band leaders must know that some players will not be allowed to play by their fundamentalist parents so im sure adjustments are made for that.

on the other hand, if a jewish parent chose to protest, he would be within his rights but schools won't issue a ban until threatened. the try to deliver what the parents want until they are told they cannot. so until more jewish/atheist/muslim parents conplain, christmas is safe in florence city schools.
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
UW,

Thanks for the support, but I don't want or expect an apology from Bill. He is not capable of admitting when he is wrong. It would not be sincere if he offered it and to tell you the truth I could not care less what he thinks of me.


i think it would be more correct to say that bill is not capable of understanding when he is wrong.

he never admits it because he doesn't get it. if something contradicts something that bill believes, then automatically that's what is in error.. not bill. he's never admited error or apologized for being wrong becuase he doesn't comprehend that he is wrong. show him proof that he's wrong, and it just never makes it to his brain.. it's filtered out before it gets there...
he's decided what he believes and cemented it in place. anything that questions that is disreguarded as tho it never existed.

if anything ever cracks that cement, bill will end up in a rubber room. he's no longer able to cope with the real world unless it is fed through his filter first.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Jankinonya:
UW,

Thanks for the support, but I don't want or expect an apology from Bill. He is not capable of admitting when he is wrong. It would not be sincere if he offered it and to tell you the truth I could not care less what he thinks of me.


i think it would be more correct to say that bill is not capable of understanding when he is wrong.

he never admits it because he doesn't get it. if something contradicts something that bill believes, then automatically that's what is in error.. not bill. he's never admited error or apologized for being wrong becuase he doesn't comprehend that he is wrong. show him proof that he's wrong, and it just never makes it to his brain.. it's filtered out before it gets there...
he's decided what he believes and cemented it in place. anything that questions that is disreguarded as tho it never existed.

if anything ever cracks that cement, bill will end up in a rubber room. he's no longer able to cope with the real world unless it is fed through his filter first.


--------------------------

I think that about nails it down nagel.

Kvn
quote:
Originally posted by Unobtanium:

by the same token, the school could not force a student to comply with playing christmas music in the band. this is nothing new to band directors of course. the CoC has been around for a while so band leaders must know that some players will not be allowed to play by their fundamentalist parents so im sure adjustments are made for that.


and they should by no means try. that wasn't my suggestion...
my point was, either they should play the songs chosen, or they should not be allowed in the band.
regardless of the reason, they shouldn't be able to refuse to play the songs and remain in the band.
if a kid on the fooball team tells the coach he can no longer touch the ball because his father converted to islam, and the skin of pigs is unclean, how long will the child remain on the football team?

if they aren't going to participate, they should not be allowed in the band.

i was in the band. no one was excused from playing the songs the band director selected.
i do not know that this was ever an issue. it might never have come up, tho my band in my freshman year had over 140 musicians.. i find it hard to believe that none of them were children of the CoC, when there are (i think) 4 in a band that is maybe half that size. but i do know that no one sat out during a song because god doesn't like saxaphones or trumpets.

if they weren't going to play the songs, why did the little pansies join the band to begin with?

i'm sorry... this sort of thing annoys me, and always has, in any situation, for any reason.

"i'm special, because of my beliefs or my lifestyle, so all of you other people must change your rules and allow for my specialness, because my wants are more important than all of these other peoples."

yeah. sit down and shut up. no one cares about your specialness. quit whining, because you're not special.
play the song, or get out of the band.

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