Let's talk about the minimum wage

If by BoD you mean board of directors you would be waiting a long time.  I am a conservative but this race to the bottom has to stop the BoD only cares about 2 things their pay and how low they can cut cost.  They have effectively destroyed the middle class buy off shoring everything they can and importing lower paying workers for what they cannot off s****.   This has put the hurt on America as the middle class is what keeps America together.  First it was Mexico then they were not cheap enough so off to Asia now I am hearing that Africa is the next great source of cheap "slave" labor.

Banker J.P. Morgan's idea that the proper ratio "between the top people and the rank and file should be twenty-fold, post-tax...Beyond that, you create social tension."

I agree HF, but I don't think that increasing the minimum wage will do anything but hurt the middle class.  Their buying power will decrease, and you will see a further shift to send jobs overseas.  There are many other countries where the minimum wage is less, and are more willing to entertain new businesses. Currently there is little in the way of traiffs on overseas produced goods, so a comapny could always produce and bring back into the country at a much lower cost.

And yes BoD meant board of directors, and I too think that most of them only make decisions based upon profit, BUT in reality if there is no profit there will be no business.

Increasing the min wage to what has been proposed by the left will only compact the lower class.  Those who are working skilled labor jobs at $20-25/hour will be shifted from middle to lower class as the purchasing power of their wage is lowered.  Effectively, those who currently make more than min wage will be taking a pay cut.

and how many states already have an increased minimum wage... to keep up with inflation?

and what would minimum wage be, today, had it kept up with inflation rates?

I honestly do not know, so tell us, and then tell us how raising it to $10.10 an hour will not affect the costs of goods. Please refrain from stepping in and taking pot shots at the subject, if you cannot provide some useful information or contribute to the dialogue, go somewhere else.

i've spend some time researching the topic instead of posting 'talking points'. obviously, you haven't or you would be able to answer the questions!

minimum wage, had it kept up with inflation would be $10.10/hour

currently 19 states already pay more than minimum wage. those states have lower unemployment than the national average. i'm sorry that contradicts your talking points.  there are 5 major economic studies researching minimum wage.. back to the early 90s/late 80s and yes, even in times of high unemployment... each of them show that 'less turnover' and "greater demand' more than made up for the increased pay. now, unless you have something pertinent to add.. or some great revelation.. i'd appreciate if you knew more about a topic, before trying to play 'king of the heap'.

Now I have fixed your reply to actually reflect some facts rather than the usually sarcastic azzhole attitude you attempt to portray.  Perhaps you don't do this in person, don't know I have never met you that I am aware of, but if so, it is likely that you are not very pleasant to be around.

As to your assertion, the reason I brought it up is because of a commentary in the Birmingham paper today who is carrying the Red Party line that the only way to succeed in this country is for us to raise the minimum wage, however most consumer advocates disagree with that assessment.  Like I said if you are willing to be cordial you are welcome to contribute, but do so without the attitude or go somewhere else.

Here are a few points that some economists make..

http://www.economicshelp.org/l...tages-minimum-wages/

On epoint in this article is "The  effect of a min wage on unemployment is uncertain, the structure of the       labour market is very important. E.g. if the labour market is a monopsony, a minimum wage may not cause unemployment."  I am ssuming here that they are talking about limited access to potential workers, so if this is the case then it would be good, however with the access to international job markets, the workforce is no longer a small group with simplistic bargaining.

teyates... perhaps you could heed your own advice and stop telling someone else how to post... you've gone so far as to chastise me, before i posted more than 2 SENTENCES! then, after you've informed us all 'how bad it would be to raise the minimum wage', you don't even know how many states pay over minimum wage, nor what it would SHOULD BE! you've informed us about several other countries. their minimum wage.. and their economy... but, you can't tell us about our own?

seems to me, if you wanted to have a 'civil discussion about minimum wage', you'd have come to the discussion informed.

I started the discussion to become informed.  Opened it with a nopen mind.  you instead showed up in the first post with your snarky attitude.  Like I said, keep it civil, as I do not want it degrading to some schoolyard namecalling fest like the majority of topics lately have gone.

In answer to your studies, two of which I had read on the Progressive website, let me relate to the recent min. wage increase at the SeaTac area, primarily targeting the airport, and the effects it is having on that area. Proposals for new hotels are being withdrawn, and the loss of potential airline providers is also in danger, because of the rapid increase in min. wage.  I am aware that some states have a higher minimum wage but here in Alabama we would be taling an almost 25% in the basic cost of the employee.

http://jonathanturley.org/2014...ial-and-detrimental/

The "going rate" for someone to clean my floors every two weeks is "60 here in the
Shoals. I cannot find anyone else.  Actually she wanted $80.  This ifs for 1.5  - 2 hrs work.  This has been enjoyed by these workers for at least 4 years as far as I know. This is my fourth helper in that time. I cannot understand why these people have set their rates so high and gotten  the money.  And you had better watch the clock.  She let me know the first day that she would not make the bed  I have orthopedic problems and do need help.  Otherwise I would go create my own "cleaning service"..   I see around $12.50 as a reasonable hourly rate for this job.. 

how do you put 'attitude' in two sentences? that makes zero sense. next... i'd say, right off hand, that should show you just how backwards we are, here in bama. not go to prove the 'horrors of higher minimum wage'. i'm certain the 'withdrawn hotels' and the 'loss of air providers' had nothing to do with the 'down economy'. check all the studies. compare. keep your mind open. it's hard to see the horror in raising people to a minimum wage.. to equal the cost of inflation.

Crash,

The implications of raising the min.wage of the airport and seaport workers is multifactorial.  If the airport has to raise the price of tickets to accomodate this increase in costs how will it be passed to the consumer?  Higher ticket prices or a "tax" added to the ticket?  Of course this really only affects the people who are traveling into SeaTac, right?  Well when the tourism dries up, and it would because of higher travel costs, who then suffers? The local economy, which in turn causes the airport to have to lay off employees, who used to have a job.  There is a fine balance here.

I have an open mind, but I see the ramifications of this increase and only see a short term benefit for those who will get the increase.

For instance, you have said you work in the food industry.  Does the wait staff get minimum wage plus tips? or is there some other arrangement for that?  Because Iwould see where most restaurants would have to increase the costs of food in order to offset this cost in manpower, and then the consumer would also be expected to tip generously.  That is not going to happen in 90% of the case, you know that.

te, the studies show , with the increase in pay, comes increase in demand. the studies all show that.

i haven't worked in the service industry in years. i do realize that minimum wage was supposed to keep up with inflation. why is that such a horrible idea?

I am not saying it is a horrible idea, but I am refuting your claim.  If you look at the issue I cited above about the SeaTac min. wage increase, you can see that airlines are contemplating pulling out, or even decreasing flights into the area.  The plans to build a hotel in the area of the airport is being held until the situation stabilizes (since the issue is currently being discussed in court as to whether the local government can exert their dominance on the airport, which was federally funded).  So not all is merry and bright at this point.  The investors are starting to pull back and the issues are starting to rise.  This is occurring in what can only be described as the Liberal Hotbed of the US (Washington State) so I think the long term effects will be carefully studied.  It is obvious that the newer Union members were smart enough to not allow Boeing to pull out the 777 manufacturing despite the call to arms by their older brethren.

My premise is that the inflation would be made worse by such a huge sudden increase in the minimum wage, not that I think it is horrible.

te, it's not a sudden rise.. almost half the country already makes the mark. we tried giving money to the 'top' to create jobs. we tried it for years. now, lets see how much the economy grows when you give it to the 'bottom'. studies show a boost in the economy. as i said. look at all the major studies. you'll see the pattern.

I get the opportunity to travel lots of places, and have always said the cost of living here is much lower than compared to most places.  The federal government even defines this area by Medicare Wage Index and it is reflected in medical payments to hospitals and providers.  When I am somewhere that has huge exhorbitant taxes (hotel luxury taxes, out of town room taxes, food service taxes, ie) it certainly is not condusive to me wanting to return to that area to either visit nor spend any long term time there. For instance, I hate going to New York, where a cab fare can cost $75 and they can get it because there is no where to park. A flea bag hotel will costs you $150 a night and a Happy Meal near downtown runs about $8.  I know that costs are built into these prices, and they can get it because of demand, but currently we don't have that demand here.  I think most of the studies I have seen tend to be leaning toward  the bias of the writer and there is little in common sense from either group. Most of the studies I have read which advocate raising the wage tend to be Progressive or Liberal authors, and vise versa.  I am trying to be unbiased, and only go by my experience and (somewhat) limited business knowledge.

I did not mean my post to imply that I supported the raising of the min wage to 15 per hour.  I am simply stating that by letting in millions of illegals we have destroyed a large section of the semi skilled middle Americans jobs.  When I was 14 I want a Columbia 10 speed bike so my mom and dad said if you want it you can earn the money by working for a builder my mom was selling houses for.  I spent that and the next 2 summers working on job sites with Americans doing blue collar work and supporting a family.  I also worked in the same trades after high school and still had Americans doing the work.  Along come people who will do the work for 1/2 the price but live 5 to 10 to a house and you know the rest.  It is not that Americans will not do the work they will not do it for a wage artificially lowered buy illegals.

I agree HF.  When I was in college I worked for minimum wage at a convenience store. I sometimes wondered if risking my life for $125 a week, after taxes, made much sense when the guy across town working at the same chain was killed in a robbery.

I too think we will not work for what others will work for, and because of that the market gets flooded with people. I for one have been advocate of restricting people into this country to work.  i know when I have visited other countries I certainly was told there was no way I could work for a wage, and no one ever offered it to me.  You can go down to I-10 every day and see trucks loads of migrant workers on their way to the feilds in Florida, and you know the same is occurring in California. Try getting a young kid today to work for what these workers will do, and be as productive, it is never going to happen. Of course, everyone wants instant satidfaction, and I don't think that would happen with a sudden wage increase.  It might intice those who will not work now to do so.

No offense but there is a difference between semi skilled construction jobs and picking fruit.   I do not think Americans ever supported middle class lifestyles while picking fruit but I know Americans did in the building trades.  Yes, picking fruit is hard but little or no skill required.

The minimum wage is more of a political issue then it is an economic issue.

Only 5% of hourly wage workers make minimum wage and of the 5%. A small percentage of that group file as head of household.

Only 20% of people who make minimum wage are below the poverty line. 

50% of minimum wage employees are between the ages of 16-24. In other words, they are either living with parents or are in college. 

If randomly setting wages solved the problem of poverty then why can't we just say set the minimum wage at $20 an hour then no one will be poor? 

The answer is obvious. If business owners are forced to raise wages they will either pass that cost onto the consumer or they will cut hours to maintain profitability.

Wages will go up as unemployment goes down. 

In 1978 ( I just kinda took a random year about 30 years ago),  the  min wage wa $2.65. According to the inflation calculator (http://www.westegg.com/inflation ) if the min wage had kept up with inflation, in 2012 it would have been $9.20 - the calculator only goes to 2012.

The miin wage in Australia is $16.37 American dollars, $11.69 in Belgum, $9.95 in Canada,$12.39  ( 9.53 euros) , and Great Britain is $8.02 .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country

Equating the hourly wages with other first world countries is kinda difficult tho, because  most have universal free (or very cheap) healthcare, and more vacation time, etc., But it does appear that instead of leading, we are falliing behind.
I would be in support of a miin wage of at least $10 an hour (except for farm workers etc), and there be cost of living increases based on , well, the cost of living.

Even a min wage of $15 an hour is not outrageous if there is not a provision to tie any increases to future cost of liviing.

Never forget that we are a consumer based economy, and well paid middle and lower class is going to build a stronger economy for us all.

 

kenny, who's advocating for 'randomly raising minimum wage'? nobody i've seen, except the rabid rt., using that as an argument against the increase.

HIFLIER - That is what i was observing in my post about cleaning services.  I really can't undesrtand why the employees in the various courthouse jobs do not switch to cleaning houses.  I told the cleaning person that I had taught at NWSCC and made very little above $20 but I lhired her anyway because i had to have her.  She does not work as hard as a school janitor and makes much more.  Semi skilled workere locally do not make $20 an hour.

What I am saying is that it will accomplish nothing. 

If simply raising wages was the solution then we could "raise" them to the point where there would be no poverty.

Let's use this scenario:

A business owner has 10 full time employees making $8 an hour. The gov't comes in and tells him he has to pay them $10 an hour. 

That means the business owners payroll will increase from $153,600 to $192,000. That means a $38,400 pay cut for the owner.

Does anyone think that the business owner will take that pay cut? Or, will they explore cutting hours? Maybe they look to automated processes to replace cashiers? Maybe they decide it is no longer worth their time to run the business and close shop?

As I have said before, the best way for wages to go up is for unemployment to go down. In 2005 when unemployment was at 4.5% fast food joints were in fact offering $9-$10 an hour to fill positions. 

My model shows that a fear of competition will prevent price increase due to minimum wage increase. Business will be forced to optimize labor skills of employees based on abilities to perform tasks. The willingness to perform tasks is a function of pay scale. Profits realized by the investor are determined by the ability of supervision in small frameworks of business. On corporate or large companies, stock holders look at CEO’s to maintain a profitable situation. Failure on the part of supervisors or CEO’s of large corporations will result in smaller bonuses and less pay to top money earners off-setting any rise in labor costs.

  This is really complicated to explain and I am not going to waste my time arguing and presenting algorithms which I know will be over the heads of our resident t-bagers .  They cannot even grasp the simple data by the critter on here.

P.S. t, your link to the graph is a derived falsehood when the actual site said this: The efficiency wage model suggests that firms that pay workers a wage above the equilibrium wage will find that the higher pay results in more productive workers. The higher pay results in less labor force turnover, lower training costs, and better motivated workers. If the increase in labor productivity is sufficiently large, an increase in the minimum wage need not reduce employment.

That is simply not true.

24% are teens

The rest are adults, with 40% of all min wage earners being adult women.

http://economy.money.cnn.com/2...-makes-minimum-wage/

I didn't say teens. I said 16-24 year olds. 

http://www.politifact.com/trut...ge-young-people-ent/

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.htm

• Minimum wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the Federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers paid by the hour, about 21 percent earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 3 percent of workers age 25 and over. (See table 1 and table 7.)

They're adults if they are making minimum wage, but "children" if they stay on mom and dad's insurance plan.

(Biologically, a child (plural: children) is generally a human between the stages of birth and puberty. The legal definition of child generally refers to a minor, otherwise known as a person younger than the age of majority.)

If a plan covers children, they can be added to or kept on a parent's health insurance policy until they turn 26 years old.

Children can join or remain on a parent's plan even if they are:

• married
• not living with their parents
• attending school
• not financially dependent on their parents
• eligible to enroll in their employer’s plan

These rules apply to both job-based plans and individual plans you buy yourself, inside or outside the Marketplace.

How to get coverage for adult children

Adult children may be enrolled during a plan’s open enrollment period or during other special enrollment opportunities. The employer or insurance company can provide details.

When you apply for a new plan in the Marketplace, you can sign up your under-26-year-olds directly. Be sure to include them on the list of people to be covered.

HF, you are right, but do you know "skilled" trained workers who are only being paid minimum wage?  I don't.  Those type of jobs typically pay what the market will bear.  If I have a construction job and need a skilled laborer and there are none to be had, I will pay his rate if it is $20 hour because that is what he can make somewhere else.  However, for those who are not necessarily skilled laborers, they are easy to find.  The problem becomes depnedability and dedication to the job.  If there comes a time when it becomes easier to replace those laborers with machines which can do the same job, at a lower price, then you replace them.  When the fast food workers were striking in NYC this summer for higher wages, the first thing that was announced was a new robotic machine that could assemble burgers.  The person who designed it saw a niche and could fill it.  Much simplier to update and do maintanence on the machine than it is to have to worry if Biff and Skip are gonna make it in to work today, call in sick, or show up stoned. At some point there become a law of diminishing return and it in order to provide the product for what the market will bear you have to look for alternate means of labor.

That is not to say that all jobs can be replaced with robots, we know that is not the fact, but most minimum wage jobs such as harvesting fruit or vegetables, assembling a burger, etc could be done by one.

I am for a modest increase in the minimum wage to account for inflation, I think Crash and Seeweed have made it clear that inflation has exceeded it, but I too believe that it will also contribute to inflation and it is a never ending cycle.

worry if Biff and Skip are gonna make it in to work today, call in sick, or show up stoned. 

-----------------------------------------

 Show up stoned, do drugs in, or sell drugs out of, the place, bathe in the kitchen sink, or a hundred other things immature "children" do.

-------------------------------------

(CNN) -- A McDonald's employee in Pittsburgh was arrested Wednesday after undercover police officers said they discovered her selling heroin in Happy Meal boxes, according to a criminal complaint.

Shantia Dennis, 26, was arrested after undercover law enforcement officials conducted a drug buy, according to a statement from Mike Manko, communications director for the Allegheny County District Attorney's Office.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/29/...ls-heroin/index.html

ATLANTA (AP) - A Wendy's employee who dropped a partially smoked blunt in a customer's cheeseburger has been fired and charged with marijuana possession.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/...ndys-burger/3886199/

Sez t “Much simplier(sic) to update and do maintanence(sic) on the machine”

Just wait until t has to fly someone in from Wisconsin at the tune of 10k to replace proprietary software and circuit boards with proprietary schematics for his robotic circumcising machine.

I am very familar with maintenance contracts, we buy them every year on our equipment. What is the difference in paying maintenance contracts and benefits pacakges QD? Most people open businesses for one reason and that reason is to make a profit, not to provide jobs.  Providing jobs is the secondary benefit to opening a business.

I know we have debated this issue before, but the person, or persons, who are making the investment, and taking the risk, with the business deserve to make a profit from that business.  I believe the workers should be fairly compensated, and I think in most cases paying a CEO millions, especially when he or she is not doing their job, is a slap in the face. But again, the purpose of the business is to make a profit and provide a service, lest there is no real reason to even risk your capital investment.

let me remind you t, your threat is that a rise in minimum wage will cause businesses to offset that cost by buying robots. Robots increase productivity which is good but the profit margin wont change due to expensive maintenance costs and having to buy new robots to keep pace with competition. A rise in wages has spin-offs. It forces better education and high tech progress. The service contractors have a hand in your pocket. I know all about your service contract there. You are paying a premium for knowledge you don't have about your equipment. Most of it is just thrown away when it could be repaired for parts that only cost pennies. you complain only about workers wages but you think costs to medicine added by big business who own your service contracts is just fine.

You left out the part where you semi skilled wage framing a house for example has been undercut by cheap illegal immigrant labor.   You know the guys who live 10 to 15 to a house and work as sub contractors to avoid paying tax for the employer and employee.  Until we address the illegal cheap foreign labor spilling into this country and the ones already here nothing changes.  If we stop the above then yes supply and demand will effect wages correctly.  

HF, We are in agreement. Until this stops nothing is going to change. But it requires a strict immigration policy that will stop them being accessible, and secondly it requires strict penalties for doing this underhanded cash only business.

Perhaps if we first fixed the immigration issue and stop allowing access to this cheap labor, and secondly insituted a fair tax plan that taxed people when they spent rather than when they were paid we could alleviate some of that problem

@QD

I am paying for specific knowledge and access to parts for a highly sensitive piece of machinery, that is not available for purchase anywhere in this area. There is no one within 150 miles capabable of fixing it.  We pay good money with 24 hour access to techinical support, and they are generally here within 24 hours of call.  This instrument has to work all night, unsupervised, and in two years it has only required two services calls.  The maintenance contract has been worth every dime we spend on it.

We agree 100%