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So if we could compromise and raise the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour, could we also entertain some other things to go along with this to help the situation and perhaps bring some normalcy, or is it too much to ask...

1. Raise minimum wage to $10.10

2. Institute fair tax plan, that allows the first $30K single / $50K married income from taxation, and do away with income tax, utilizing a VAT type system where purchased goods are taxed. This would take away the lucrative "cash only" business practices that skirt the law and help capture some of that money n the back end.

3.  The borders need to made secure, and allow open travel.  However, workers cannot work without a work visa.  Those caught working without documented SS# or proper visa are sent homw, no exceptions.

4. Businesses who provide jobs here in the country should be rewarded and not have increased burdens that force them to go elsewhere in search of cheap labor. I know some countries who supplementthe bankrolls of the company as long as they are producing items and keep the people at work.

5.  We are going to have to accept the fact that just raising the minimum wage is not going to cure poverty nor take from one group and give to another.  People are always going to figure out a way to maximize the system for their benefit.

6.  Stop the ridiculous class warfare perpetrated by the government parties.  Stop coveting your neighbors goods and property.  Worry more about what you have than what you want.

 

Originally Posted by teyates:

HF, We are in agreement. Until this stops nothing is going to change. But it requires a strict immigration policy that will stop them being accessible, and secondly it requires strict penalties for doing this underhanded cash only business.

Perhaps if we first fixed the immigration issue and stop allowing access to this cheap labor, and secondly insituted a fair tax plan that taxed people when they spent rather than when they were paid we could alleviate some of that problem

@QD

I am paying for specific knowledge and access to parts for a highly sensitive piece of machinery, that is not available for purchase anywhere in this area. There is no one within 150 miles capabable of fixing it.  We pay good money with 24 hour access to techinical support, and they are generally here within 24 hours of call.  This instrument has to work all night, unsupervised, and in two years it has only required two services calls.  The maintenance contract has been worth every dime we spend on it.

so t, you admit to charging patients for your ignorance but you want to deny them a raise in minimum wage,

 

HF you need to be looking out your window for buzzards not on here arguing. I've got electronic parts coming from DigtKey that need to arrive safe in case I have to repair t's robot.

QD sez "t, you admit to charging patients for your ignorance but you want to deny them a raise in minimum wage,"

No, much like Clint Eastwood says, I have learned that "a man needs to know his limitations". I don't try to do anything I know nothing about, nor put my foot in my blowhole when I really have nothing to say.  it is a prinicple you should learn to utilize. And like I said earlier, if you want to participate in the thread try and be decent and not let it be drug down into the ditch.  I am looking at this as an exercise to learn something and see if we are not all a little bit closer than we believe when it comes to governance.

And trust me t, I’m trying my best to teach you. Maybe you need to subscribe to some “crowd sourcing”.

“SmartCrowd” is one you might consider. I have been involved in crowd sourcing for several years now and have made great contributions to science doing it. If you teabagers would behave like adults rather than angry right-winger conserves you might learn something. Here is a link to a couple papers on ‘SmartCrowd’. Read it and give us a PhD Peer review through the eyes of a medical Dr. http://arxiv.org/pdf/1401.1302v1.pdf

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.5463v1.pdf

Originally Posted by teyates:

So if we could compromise and raise the minimum wage to $10.10 an hour, could we also entertain some other things to go along with this to help the situation and perhaps bring some normalcy, or is it too much to ask...

1. Raise minimum wage to $10.10

I would agree to that. I believe that by raising the minimum wage it will cause other wages to increase as well. It has in the past.

 

2. Institute fair tax plan, that allows the first $30K single / $50K married income from taxation, and do away with income tax, utilizing a VAT type system where purchased goods are taxed. This would take away the lucrative "cash only" business practices that skirt the law and help capture some of that money n the back end.

 

Not so sure about this one. I have been reading a lot lately about the idea of sales tax only systems or a VAT. The poor and middle class would be hit hard by this time of system. Since we are a consumer driven economy it could be devastating to businesses as well. Read this report.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/le...urprise-it-is-a-vat/

 

3.  The borders need to made secure, and allow open travel.  However, workers cannot work without a work visa.  Those caught working without documented SS# or proper visa are sent homw, no exceptions.

 

We are already spending more than we ever have on immigration control. The current administration has deported more illegal immigrants than any of the last 5 administrations. We also already have a law that says you can't work in the US without a work visa. There are not enough agents to enforce it. Also there is something to be said about the money that immigrants (legal and illegal) contribute to our economy. Studies have shown that it might actually hurt us more if we lost our immigrants and their spending power. When you say no exceptions then we are getting into areas where we are going to be breaking up families. Or making orphans. The cost of rounding up every illegal immigrant would be HUGE. Then everyone of them gets a trial so the court system would be over loaded. I'm not sure what the answer to this problem is, but I feel like we are doing everything possible now to keep the flow of illegal immigration down. The only thing I would think that would actually help us raise wages would be to make it easier for immigrants to become citizens and then they will be less likely to accept low paying jobs (that pay cash under the table). That would put those with low skills that are native born at an advantage due to their ability to speak English. 

 

 

4. Businesses who provide jobs here in the country should be rewarded and not have increased burdens that force them to go elsewhere in search of cheap labor. I know some countries who supplementthe bankrolls of the company as long as they are producing items and keep the people at work.

We could make it very simple. Stay in the US and you get incentives. Hire outsource your jobs to other countries you pay a fine. 

 

5.  We are going to have to accept the fact that just raising the minimum wage is not going to cure poverty nor take from one group and give to another.  People are always going to figure out a way to maximize the system for their benefit.

 

6.  Stop the ridiculous class warfare perpetrated by the government parties.  Stop coveting your neighbors goods and property.  Worry more about what you have than what you want.

 

This is a false statement IMO. The government is NOW echoing what the citizens have been screaming for years. It is not top down, its bottom up. The Occupy movement for instance was one of the first groups drawing attention to the fact that there is a very fast growing inequality of income in this country. The highest we have ever known. That is not manufactured by any political party, it is the way things truly are. Its the reason we are even talking about raising the minimum wage. To say that the poor are coveting what the rich have is an insult. They want opportunity and they want fair wages. When the top 1% holds half of the wealth in this country then you would have to be blind not to see that a crisis in income inequality is a real thing.

 

 

Jank,

You can't have it both ways.  you cannot cry that we are not paying the workers enough, while at the same time allowing an unfettered supply of workers into this country who are willing to work for less than minimum wages.  If you do they will be paid cash under the table, you cannot stop it with the current tax system we employ. And yes if they break the law, they should be deported, and their family with them if they want to stay togther.  It is harsh, but do you think if i went to Mexico and acted in that manner I would be set free to do as I please?

I have read many of the fair tax proposals and all of them utilize some form of deductions for the first $40K or so a family makes in order to offset their tax burden. EVERYONE would recieve this benefit and then everyone would pay the tax on goods they purcahse.  Obviously those who make more, spend more, and buy more luxurious items, therefore paying more in tax. The "poor" have an offset and in all likelihood are able to get back just about everything they spent.  how is that not fair?

And I disagree.  For the past few years it has been a steady assault by the Liberals that those making more than $250K are not paying enough taxes.  "The rich don't pay their fair share", etc.  This is echoed by Obama almost every time he speaks. In reality, there are very few of these high paid CEOs and certainly more people scamming the government system, and costing the tax payers money, than revenue being lost to these rich CEOs who shelter their money. The current assault by the administration has been to talk more about class warfare and create a stigma against those who make, or who might, make more than you.  there is always going to be income inequality.  Without it their is no incentive to anything.  This is basically a speaking point by the Libs that 1% holds 50% of the country's wealth. If you want to say that is true, then you also have to admit that 80% of the taxes in this country are being paid by the top 10% of the people.

Last edited by teyates
Originally Posted by teyates:

Jank,

You can't have it both ways.  you cannot cry that we are not paying the workers enough, while at the same time allowing an unfettered supply of workers into this country who are willing to work for less than minimum wages.  If you do they will be paid cash under the table, you cannot stop it with the current tax system we employ. And yes if they break the law, they should be deported, and their family with them if they want to stay togther.  It is harsh, but do you think if i went to Mexico and acted in that manner I would be set free to do as I please?

 

I thought you wanted honest discussion and debate? I'm not "crying" about anything. You just accused me of something I never said and then knocked it down. That is called a straw man argument. If we are going to have honest discussion and debate then you have to agree to actually abide by the rules of debate.

No where did I say we should have an "unfettered supply of workers willing to work for less than minimum wage" I actually said the opposite. We are deporting more than we ever have and I am not against that at all. However, I feel it is unrealistic to believe that we can round up all the illegals and deport them AND keep them from crossing back over again. So, in my opinion it would be better to make it easier for them to come over legally. Make the process faster and less expensive. Document them. If we did that then they could join the work force legally and in doing so not take jobs for less than minimum wage. 

 

I have read many of the fair tax proposals and all of them utilize some form of deductions for the first $40K or so a family makes in order to offset their tax burden. EVERYONE would recieve this benefit and then everyone would pay the tax on goods they purcahse.

 

Are you talking with or without income tax? I'm not sure what you mean by deductions for the fist 40k unless you are talking about income tax. What you had proposed before would do away with income taxes, right?

 

  Obviously those who make more, spend more, and buy more luxurious items, therefore paying more in tax. The "poor" have an offset and in all likelihood are able to get back just about everything they spent.  how is that not fair?

 

So when a gallon of milk cost 15 dollars and it takes a poor person an hour and a half (that's if we raise the minimum wage) to earn that much do you not think they will suffer and do without? I'm not saying they would pay more taxes, I'm saying they would end up doing without necessary goods that they need because they would not be able to afford them. 

 

And I disagree.  For the past few years it has been a steady assault by the Liberals that those making more than $250K are not paying enough taxes.  "The rich don't pay their fair share", etc.  This is echoed by Obama almost every time he speaks. In reality, there are very few of these high paid CEOs and certainly more people scamming the government system, and costing the tax payers money, than revenue being lost to these rich CEOs who shelter their money. The current assault by the administration has been to talk more about class warfare and create a stigma against those who make, or who might, make more than you.  there is always going to be income inequality.  Without it their is no incentive to anything.  This is basically a speaking point by the Libs that 1% holds 50% of the country's wealth. If you want to say that is true, then you also have to admit that 80% of the taxes in this country are being paid by the top 10% of the people.

 

Is it your opinion that rising income inequality is not an real issue? Are you saying that its not factual? Can you provide real proof that the gap has not increased to record highs unseen since before the Great Depression? I'm not saying there should be no inequality in income. I don't think anyone has ever said that. The issue is the growing gap. The rate that it is growing and the fact that the bottom is being outpaced at such a rate that it is causing serious problems with our economy. 

 

Here is some of my proof. And it doesn't come from the President.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fac...-highest-since-1928/

 

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3629

Last edited by Jankinonya

Jank,

The way most VAT or Flat Tax proposals work is everyone gets a payment from the Government for the taxes on the cost of the basic necessities i.e. food, utilities, etc and then everything gets taxed.   That means that gallon of milk was not taxed at all.

 

I do not by the argument about splitting up families by deportation as we do it every day when people are put in jail.

 

The income gap is growing in part due to the reasons I said the semi skilled jobs are being outsourced and the jobs that cannot be outsourced are being undercut by cheap illegal labor.

 

I do believe in the income gap I just do not believe that increasing the taxes are the answer.  I am fortunate enough to be through hard work to be in the 33% bracket.  That combined with all the sales gas, utilities taxes and fees etc result in a real tax rate of around 40%,  I think that is enough. 

 

Originally Posted by Jankinonya:
Originally Posted by teyates:

Jank,

You can't have it both ways.  you cannot cry that we are not paying the workers enough, while at the same time allowing an unfettered supply of workers into this country who are willing to work for less than minimum wages.  If you do they will be paid cash under the table, you cannot stop it with the current tax system we employ. And yes if they break the law, they should be deported, and their family with them if they want to stay togther.  It is harsh, but do you think if i went to Mexico and acted in that manner I would be set free to do as I please?

 

I apologize.  I was not inferring that you said this, I was referring to the fact that what we are doing now is not working.  I have no problem with making it easier for people to become citizens and obtaining a visa to work.  I just want it done legally.  The border is too porous, and there is no way short of building a fence that is going to stop the migration.  I don't like it any better than anyone else, but if the access to cheap labor is there ist is going to be exploited. the current administration states they are doing more to control the flow, but it still appears to me that it is not enough, and before you think I am bashing this administration, the previous one and the one before that did nothing either.  For some reason the people in Washington do not want to deal with this issue.

 

I have read many of the fair tax proposals and all of them utilize some form of deductions for the first $40K or so a family makes in order to offset their tax burden. EVERYONE would recieve this benefit and then everyone would pay the tax on goods they purcahse.

 

Most of the plans I have seen, like HF said, do away with the income tax and return a portion to the individual or family.  These taxes are not placed on food or utilites, so again there is no detriment to their buying power.  It captures the cash flow from drugs, prostituion and gambling that occur.  A drug dealer bringing down $1M a year spends that money, while his income is never taxed nor reliably traced.  Capture the taxes on the expenditures.

  Obviously those who make more, spend more, and buy more luxurious items, therefore paying more in tax. The "poor" have an offset and in all likelihood are able to get back just about everything they spent.  how is that not fair?

 

Refer to the above.  The poor would not be paying taxes on food, of course no one would.  This is why it is a "fair plan".  you are taxed on what you buy, therefore you have the option.

 

And I disagree.  For the past few years it has been a steady assault by the Liberals that those making more than $250K are not paying enough taxes.  "The rich don't pay their fair share", etc.  This is echoed by Obama almost every time he speaks. In reality, there are very few of these high paid CEOs and certainly more people scamming the government system, and costing the tax payers money, than revenue being lost to these rich CEOs who shelter their money. The current assault by the administration has been to talk more about class warfare and create a stigma against those who make, or who might, make more than you.  there is always going to be income inequality.  Without it their is no incentive to anything.  This is basically a speaking point by the Libs that 1% holds 50% of the country's wealth. If you want to say that is true, then you also have to admit that 80% of the taxes in this country are being paid by the top 10% of the people.

 

Of course thre is income inequality, however I do not think you would solve it with a simple increase of the minimum wage.  This is why I proposed a compromise.  Simply raising the minimum wage is going to contribute to inflation since the prices will rise, and eventually you are back to square one with less buying power.  It is a short term attempt at a fix that will provide no long term stability.

 

 

 

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