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quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
To ignore a problem or sweep it under the rug is to love yourself more than the person who needs you to tell them the truth in love.

Hi Joy,

If it is a thing done once, for whatever reason, I would not consider that the person has a problem. True, he should have known better -- but, we all make mistakes.

If it is a thing done habitually -- yes, the elders should approach him, in love, and discuss the problem with him.

If the elders did not notice his faux pas -- then that church has a much larger problem. At this point, a member, or members, should approach the elders questioning why they have overlooked the problem.

In this way, we follow the teachings of Matthew 18 and, hopefully, can resolve the problem in love and with no distractions in the church.

Just my thoughts.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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Bill, I think if you had read the book, you'd surely feel differently. It's brilliant.

As stated in the original post here, this pastor read "Crazy Love" as if it was a sermon written by himself. Don't you think it would be a good idea to let him know that you, and more than likely others present, recognized it as a quote from Francis Chan? I mean, to say nothing seems almost mean to me. He looks like a dufus. If he did it once, he will do it again.

It's not like anyone here is saying to get rid of the man. I think saying nothing is a really bad plan. You could stop a bad situation from getting worse if you simply go talk to him.

If for no other reason that to clear the confusion between you...what if he meant to give credit and just forgot? You'll never know if you don't go talk to him. Then he could correct the mistake.
Hi Joy,

You tell me, "Bill, I think if you had read the book, you'd surely feel differently. It's brilliant."

The issue is not how brilliant the book is -- or is not. No book is more brilliant than the Bible. After all, look at who authored the Bible. The real issue is: Was this a one time faux pas -- or is it a habitual problem? Depending upon the answer -- that should guide the action required.

Then, you tell me, "As stated in the original post here, this pastor read "Crazy Love" as if it was a sermon written by himself. Don't you think it would be a good idea to let him know that you, and more than likely others present, recognized it as a quote from Francis Chan? I mean, to say nothing seems almost mean to me. He looks like a dufus. If he did it once, he will do it again."

Are we now judging the man on his looks? "He looks like a dufus."

And, isn't that a wee bit harsh, to say, "If he did it once, he will do it again."?

Have you or I never made a mistake -- one time -- and not repeated it? Why would you judge the man by declaring that he will do it again?

Next, you tell me, "It's not like anyone here is saying to get rid of the man. I think saying nothing is a really bad plan. You could stop a bad situation from getting worse if you simply go talk to him."

If it was a one time mistake; is that a bad situation that will get worse? Once again, we have to look at the situation -- was it a one time faux pas or is it a habitual problem? I have never met a pastor, or anyone, who has not, on some occasion, put his foot in his mouth. Have you? If so, maybe you met Jesus without realizing it.

Finally, you tell me, "If for no other reason that to clear the confusion between you...what if he meant to give credit and just forgot? You'll never know if you don't go talk to him. Then he could correct the mistake."

Yes, that would work. But, it also could create a wee bit of tension which is not necessary. Why not just let it ride -- but, be alert to a second occurrence. That, in my mind, would be the time to approach him privately and discuss what has become, by that time, an issue.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
buff, I take it you missed part of the conversation. He plagiarized Frances Chan, not the Bible. How exactly am I putting too much confidence in my pastor?


Exactly my point. Chan has no business claiming anything from the Bible as his. If Chan is speaking the truth why conclude anyone else saying the same thing is plagiariszing?
buff...Chan does include quotes from the Bible & quotes from people he respects, but the rest is Chan's work and, unlike this pastor, gives credit to anyone he quotes. Here, this summary of the chapters may help you see just how much the pastor got from Francis Chan, essentially stole from Francis Chan when he did not give him credit for his work...

http://www.shepherdproject.com...ces/wordpress/?p=726
Bill, because it is extremely likely that several if not many of those present know what he did. This book is a best seller.

It has already hurt his witness. Look how HP responded, just like most of us would. If some of those who noticed discuss it with others and we both know at least one will, it will hurt his and his church's witness. You may not see it as stealing, but most people do.

Anyhoo, you are welcome to handle a situation like this anyway you see fit. I'd just rather talk it through in his office, get everything out there in the open between us and move on. If you speak in love and with humility, there is no reason for tension in the future.

...oh, and please stop being silly. You know I wasn't referring to his hairstyle when I said "looks like a dufus". Him doing this again is likely...if he saw no problem doing it once, no problem doing it more than once...this may not be the first time anyway, just the first time HP noticed.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
buff...Chan does include quotes from the Bible & quotes from people he respects, but the rest is Chan's work and, unlike this pastor, gives credit to anyone he quotes. Here, this summary of the chapters may help you see just how much the pastor got from Francis Chan, essentially stole from Francis Chan when he did not give him credit for his work...

http://www.shepherdproject.com...ces/wordpress/?p=726


joy. chan has not said anything regarding the Bible that has not been said a million times before by someone else. Chan gives no credit thaI i saw giving others any credit.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Him doing this again is likely...if he saw no problem doing it once, no problem doing it more than once...this may not be the first time anyway, just the first time HP noticed.

Hi Joy,

Have you ever made mistakes? Do YOU continue to repeat those mistakes?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
I have the book. He gives credit when he quotes other authors or the Bible.

Why are you defending plagiarism?

I am condemning the commercialism of the Bible.

I have always done so.

No evidence yet that Diogenes ever found an honest man in a religious bookstore.


Who gets the royalties for every bible sold? Does god have a bank account?
quote:
Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
I have the book. He gives credit when he quotes other authors or the Bible. Why are you defending plagiarism?

I am condemning the commercialism of the Bible.
I have always done so. No evidence yet that Diogenes ever found an honest man in a religious bookstore.

Who gets the royalties for every bible sold? Does god have a bank account?


YES, IT IS CALLED THE "BANK OF HEAVEN" - AND ALL BELIEVERS MAKE DAILY DEPOSITS!

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quote:
Originally posted by bluetick:
If God can create anything then why does he/she need money? What did he/she do before the advent of money? Big Grin

Hey, I kind of like this answer a question with another question thing.

Hi Tick,

God makes Bill Gates and Warren Buffet look like penniless paupers. God needs nothing from us -- He owns the whole universe.

All He asks from us is our love. And, our giving back to God from what He has given us, i.e., tithing, -- to be used in His churches and ministries to help others and to further His Christian faith -- is only showing our love for Him.

It is sort of like when you were in college. If Dad sent you money each month to cover your expenses in college -- you knew he loved you. However, if he stops sending money -- you are in deep stuff. So, God, since he has no need for money -- simply asks Christians to send some of the money He has provided for them -- to some of his other children who are in need.

You see, God does not need us to share His wealth or to spread His Word; but, He allows us to be His "feet on the streets" so that we can be blessed. It is the same when we provide money to those less fortunate or to churches and ministries so that they can continue to share the Gospel with the lost world.

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill

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quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
I have the book. He gives credit when he quotes other authors or the Bible. Why are you defending plagiarism?

I am condemning the commercialism of the Bible.
I have always done so. No evidence yet that Diogenes ever found an honest man in a religious bookstore.

Who gets the royalties for every bible sold? Does god have a bank account?


YES, IT IS CALLED THE "BANK OF HEAVEN" - AND ALL BELIEVERS MAKE DAILY DEPOSITS!


and sadly, some people are taught that the more they donate to the church, the better a seat they will get in heaven.

i went church shopping again a while back... we decided which one to test drive and we showed up on sunday morning just a couple minutes before the service was supposed to start... we snuck in and sat in the back so as not to get in peoples way... and listen for 30 minutes as the preacher explained how one of the most important points of christianity and the bible was that the tithing part.
he told us that a large and frequint tithe was no promise of getting into heaven, but that he was sure than the scripture told us that we couldn't get in with out that 10%.

we left before the sermon was over.

maybe every other day of the year, htey did a great sermon with a great message.... but on the one day we showed up we get told we're not going to heaven unless we give him our money... well, it wasn't the best introduction to a church. needless to say, we haven't been back, nor will we go back.
quote:
Originally posted by thenagel:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by Opie Cunningham:
quote:
Originally posted by buffalo:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
I have the book. He gives credit when he quotes other authors or the Bible. Why are you defending plagiarism?

I am condemning the commercialism of the Bible.
I have always done so. No evidence yet that Diogenes ever found an honest man in a religious bookstore.

Who gets the royalties for every bible sold? Does god have a bank account?


YES, IT IS CALLED THE "BANK OF HEAVEN" - AND ALL BELIEVERS MAKE DAILY DEPOSITS!


and sadly, some people are taught that the more they donate to the church, the better a seat they will get in heaven.

i went church shopping again a while back... we decided which one to test drive and we showed up on sunday morning just a couple minutes before the service was supposed to start... we snuck in and sat in the back so as not to get in peoples way... and listen for 30 minutes as the preacher explained how one of the most important points of christianity and the bible was that the tithing part.
he told us that a large and frequint tithe was no promise of getting into heaven, but that he was sure than the scripture told us that we couldn't get in with out that 10%.

we left before the sermon was over.

maybe every other day of the year, htey did a great sermon with a great message.... but on the one day we showed up we get told we're not going to heaven unless we give him our money... well, it wasn't the best introduction to a church. needless to say, we haven't been back, nor will we go back.

I would have left myself nagel.

You wont hear that in the COC.

From what I’ve observed here on the forum; you probably don’t need to attend anywhere.

You would more than likely go just to be a trouble maker.

The sooner you realize what goes on in the religious assemblage is just a fraction of your business and all the other members are entitled to their two cents worth, you will enjoy the fellowship.

The COC doesn’t teach tithing but giving as you are prospered. You seldom hear the subject brought up.

If the congregation has a budget the members are aware of it and have the collective mentality to meet it if they agree with how the money is being spent.

A true test of the worth of how a congregation is spending will certainly be proven by how it is supported.

A preacher cannot hound folks by sermon into giving in the COC. The elders won’t allow it. He will be replaced.

The COC preacher does not run the spiritual or business end of the congregation; the elders do.
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Thanks, Windsong. Smiler

The Church in Bible times took care of the needs of preachers. I don't see why it's a problem if we do the same?


A point of distinction: There is not an example in the Bible of a church paying a guy to be their permanent "local preacher" whose main function is to preach to them each week.

They supported preachers as missionaries carrying the gospel to new areas, and when missionary preachers like Paul came to their areas they helped provide for them while they were there, as good hosts and enabling the preacher to do his work while there, but Paul worked a secular job as well to support himself.

I might also point out that even those preachers were Apostles. Modern-day preachers are certainly not, so to treat them as Apostles would be a mistake IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Gray:
quote:
Originally posted by _Joy_:
Him doing this again is likely...if he saw no problem doing it once, no problem doing it more than once...this may not be the first time anyway, just the first time HP noticed.

Hi Joy,

Have you ever made mistakes? Do YOU continue to repeat those mistakes?

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

Bill


The times when I made the conscience choice to do something that I knew was wrong? Oh yeah, more than once. So have you.

I was trying to give the man a break with "what if he just forgot", but I doubt he forgot. It would be easy enough to find out though. Just ask.

Why is it such a big deal to you to speak with your pastor in private about a matter that bothers you, like this bothers HP?

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