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http://atheists.org/blog/2012/...s-case-blames-victim

The Pennsylvania State Director of American Atheists, Inc., Mr. Ernest Perce V., was assaulted by a Muslim while participating in a Halloween parade. Along with a Zombie Pope, Ernest was costumed as Zombie Muhammad. The assault was caught on video, the Muslim man admitted to his crime and charges were filed in what should have been an open-and-shut case. That’s not what happened, though.

 The defendant is an immigrant and claims he did not know his actions were illegal, or that it was legal in this country to represent Muhammad in any form. To add insult to injury, he also testified that his 9 year old son was present, and the man said he felt he needed to show his young son that he was willing to fight for his Prophet.

The case went to trial, and as circumstances would dictate, Judge Mark Martin is also a Muslim. What transpired next was surreal. The Judge not only ruled in favor of the defendant, but called Mr. Perce a name and told him that if he were in a Muslim country, he’d be put to death. Judge Martin’s comments included,

    “Having had the benefit of having spent over 2 and a half years in predominantly Muslim countries I think I know a little bit about the faith of Islam. In fact I have a copy of the Koran here and I challenge you sir to show me where it says in the Koran that Mohammad arose and walked among the dead. I think you misinterpreted things. Before you start mocking someone else’s religion you may want to find out a little bit more about it it makes you look like a dufus and Mr. (Defendant) is correct. In many Arabic speaking countries something like this is definitely against the law there. In their society in fact it can be punishable by death and it frequently is in their society.

Judge Martin then offered a lesson in Islam, stating,

    “Islam is not just a religion, it’s their culture, their culture. It’s their very essence their very being. They pray five times a day towards Mecca to be a good Muslim, before you die you have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca unless you are otherwise told you can not because you are too ill too elderly, whatever but you must make the attempt. Their greetings wa-laikum as-Salâm (is answered by voice) may god be with you. Whenever, it’s very common when speaking to each other it’s very common for them to say uh this will happen it’s it they are so immersed in it.

Judge Martin further complicates the issue by not only abrogating the First Amendment, but completely misunderstanding it when he said,

    “Then what you have done is you have completely trashed their essence, their being. They find it very very very offensive. I’m a Muslim, I find it offensive. But you have that right, but you’re way outside your boundaries or first amendment rights. This is what, and I said I spent about 7 and a half years living in other countries. when we go to other countries it’s not uncommon for people to refer to us as ugly Americans this is why we are referred to as ugly Americans, because we are so concerned about our own rights we don’t care about other people’s rights as long as we get our say but we don’t care about the other people’s say”

But wait, it gets worse. The Judge refused to allow the video into evidence, and then said,

    “All that aside I’ve got here basically.. I don’t want to say he said she said but I’ve got two sides of the story that are in conflict with each other.”

And,

    “The preponderance of, excuse me, the burden of proof… “

And,

    “…he has not proven to me beyond a reasonable doubt that this defendant is guilty of harassment, therefore I am going to dismiss the charge”

The Judge neglected to address the fact that the ignorance of the law does not justify an assault and that it was the responsibility of the defendant to familiarize himself with our laws.  This is to say nothing of the judge counseling the defendant that it is also not acceptable for him to teach his children that it is acceptable to use violence in the defense of religious beliefs.  Instead, the judge gives Mr. Perce a lesson in Sharia law and drones on about the Muslim faith, inform everyone in the court room how strongly he embraces Islam, that the first amendment does not allow anyone ” to **** off other people and other cultures” and he was also insulted by Mr. Perce’s portrayal of Mohammed and the sign he carried.

This is a travesty. Not only did Judge Martin completely ignore video evidence, but a Police Officer who was at the scene also testified on Mr. Perce’s behalf, to which the Judge also dismissed by saying the officer didn’t give an accurate account or doesn’t give it any weight.

Here is a link to the video that includes the audio of the Judge during the trial:

Here’s coverage of the incident from the local ABC affiliate

Needless to say, this is totally, completely and unequivocally unacceptable. That a Muslim immigrant can assault a United States citizen in defense of his religious beliefs and walk away a free man, while the victim is chastised and insulted by a Muslim judge who then blamed the victim for the crime committed against him is a horrible abrogation.

This reeks of those cases we used to read about where a woman is blamed for her own rape because she “was asking for it” by virtue of the clothing she chose to wear, and then having the Judge set the rapist free.

I can promise you this, you have not heard the last of this issue. Not by a long shot.


Al Stefanelli - Georgia State Director, American Atheists, Inc.

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It's impossible to speak with force in a muffled voice from the closet

Original Post

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Hi Jennifer,

 

No, my Friend, this scares the hell out of me.  How has America deteriorated so much that we allow a Muslim judge to sit on a bench and try an American under Sharia Law?  And, that is exactly the smell this case gives off. 

 

A judge in America should be guided and controlled by one document -- the American Constitution.  This smells of the "Obama let's be buddies" approach with the Muslim nations.  America is not a Muslim nation and any judge which gives a ruling based up the Qur'an or any document other than the American Constitution -- not only should be -- but MUST be impeached and removed from all judicial activities.   But, this will not happen in the Obama Kingdom.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

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Personally, I see the point with the judge, but does this suprise anyone?

 This culture including atheists are so hell bent on destroying Christianity and defending Islam, this is just a glimpse into America's future. You atheists like Deep that calls Christianity an "ultimate wickedness",  hehehe you just wait.................

Extra, you say personally you, a so called christian, see the judge's point, but yet you accuse atheists of "defending" Islam?  One more time, a muslim attacks an atheist, a muslim judge does nothing and even agrees with the attacker, and YOU, "see" the muslim judge's point. But in the same "breath" so to speak, you, the supposed christian, claim it's atheists that are supporting Islam? How do atheists support Islam? And. hehehehe, what are we supposed to "wait" for? Maybe it's you that should, hehehe, wait, since atheism is on the rise.

After a check on the internet, I believe this story is true.  The judge is a danger to all faiths and no faith.  To dismiss an assault against any citizen because of belief is outrageous, even to muslims. What is one were shi'ite and the other shia, druze, or aleve and the judge ruled the same. Hope there is a followup civil suit as well as an appeal of the dismissal and a move to disbar the judge.

 

 Willie,

 

No, there is a line about not allowing the government to interfere with, or establish an official state religion.  One of the first acts of congress was to appoint the position of paid chaplain.  The courts, of course, may do nothing about this, as the constitution forbids them from interfering with the internal rules of congress.   

I don't necessarily have a problem with the case being dismissed. I watched the video, and while there was a small altercation, it's not clear to me that it escalated into something the police would bother arresting anyone for if they had been present. More of a "break it up, move along" situation, in my opinion.

 

What's very troubling is the judge's statements, which indicate that he doesn't understand the First Amendment at all. Freedom of speech absolutely does include the freedom to offend other people and mock their religious beliefs. I don't know if the judge's view is clouded by his own strong Muslim beliefs or if he's just an idiot, but either way, he should be removed from the bench for his complete ignorance of the First Amendment.

 

To force the issue, I'd love to see that atheist group stage a zombie Mohammed protest outside of his courthouse.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Extra, you say personally you, a so called christian, see the judge's point, but yet you accuse atheists of "defending" Islam?  One more time, a muslim attacks an atheist, a muslim judge does nothing and even agrees with the attacker, and YOU, "see" the muslim judge's point. But in the same "breath" so to speak, you, the supposed christian, claim it's atheists that are supporting Islam? How do atheists support Islam? And. hehehehe, what are we supposed to "wait" for? Maybe it's you that should, hehehe, wait, since atheism is on the rise.

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 No, You misunderstood my point. I see the point with the complaint about the judge. I agree with Bill Grey, this is a dangerous precedent.

 OTOH, it shows that not all religions are the same, and certainly that Christianity is not the "ultimate wickedness"  you atheists claim. You spend your time in here beating up Christians because it's safe to do so. Whil;e you tear down Christianity, you allow Islam to fill the gap, one day you will be the victim of your own making.

 And. hehehehe, what are we supposed to "wait" for? Maybe it's you that should, hehehe, wait, since atheism is on the rise.

 

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 In the coming battle between atheism and Islam, I predict Islam will win.

I find the Judge's comments more disturbing than his ruling. Since we don't know what elements must be proved under Pennsylvania law its possible that while very inappropriate behavior a crime was not committed. The judge's comments though give insight to an intolerant mindset. Islam is a religion of peace only when you submit to it. Any expression of ideas outside Islam will be met with resistance to the point of violence. Hopefully, this judge holds an elected position and will be voted out at the earliest opportunity.

First of all you still make no sense. The man attacked was an atheist and attacked because of his perceived "insult" to the islam religion, but once again you claim atheists support it. Between islam and atheists islam would win? Where does that put you, because I'd think that to "get to us" they'd have to finish you off first.  If anyone is defending islam here it's you. How many muslims post here extra? How many muslims come here and post that islam should be "taught" in schools, muslims allowed to lead prayers at school events? Who exactly is on this forum pushing the islam religion and being agreed with by atheists? Who, besides you apparently, doesn't understand that atheists don't support or "endorse" any religion or belief in gods? Victims of our own making and the coming battle between atheism and religion? Those are very puzzling statements. What does it mean exactly? Does it mean that atheists and muslims would go to some kind of "war" and christians would sit back and let the muslims do their "dirty work" and destroy atheists? Or does it mean that atheists would sit back and watch muslims destroy christians, then "get whupped" by those same muslims? How would this "war" come about? What gap are we "allowing" muslims to fill? 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Islam is a religion of peace only when you submit to it. Any expression of ideas outside Islam will be met with resistance to the point of violence. 

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And you can substitute christian religion for islam and the statement will still be true.

Violence? Really Best? You can equate the responses of Christians to that of Muslims?

All I can figure out is that someone who professed to be Christian really hurt you in the past. I'm sorry for your pain but some of your statements are out there.

All I can figure out is that someone who professed to be Christian really hurt you in the past. I'm sorry for your pain but some of your statements are out there.

 

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"You were hurt by christians, you have pain"-straight out of the fundie playbook. No, I have no christians in my past or present that have "hurt" or mistreated me. I love all of the ones I grew up with, and associate with today. But I'm not blind, I can see what the radical christians say and it is no different than the things the radical islamists say. 

In what is left of Christendom, there is no publicly condoned stoning, no chop-chop square as in Riyadh, no cutting of the neck for apostates and Jews in the same method as sheep are ritualistically slaughtered, no mobs burning places of worship not of their faith, no burning of persons not of their faith or sect, none of these outrages exist. Nor, have they existed for hundreds of years.

Originally Posted by Extra-260:
 

it shows that not all religions are the same, and certainly that Christianity is not the "ultimate wickedness"  you atheists claim. You spend your time in here beating up Christians because it's safe to do so. Whil;e you tear down Christianity, you allow Islam to fill the gap, one day you will be the victim of your own making.

________________________

I could turn your words around. Atheism is not the "ultimate wickedness"  you Christians claim. You spend your time in here beating up Atheist just because you can & it seems to make you feel good. Why do Christians judge people by their "religion" instead of the kind of person someone is & how they treat others?   

I'm neither a Christian or an Atheism but I hope I always continue to see the person & not their "religion" or lack of. 

A claim to atheism ,alone, is neither good nor bad when it comes to human behavior. Most of the worst violence in human history was committed in the 20th Century by those who advocated atheism as part of their creed -- the communists.  They exterminated 250 million people. None of the versions of that belief system created anything but death, suffering and misery.  The blame is not on their atheism, but upon the darkness that can lie in the human heart.  Although, as a Christian, I believe there are also malevolent forces that lie outside the human heart, as well. 

Most of the worst violence in human history was committed in the 20th Century by those who advocated atheism as part of their creed -- the communists.

---------------------------------------------

Look at the horrors done in the name of god that were and still are being committed. Atheism=communism, typical christian "scare tactic".

Christian communism

 

Christian communism is a form of religious communism based on Christianity. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact date when Christian communism was founded, many Christian communists assert that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles, created their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. As such, many advocates of Christian communism argue that it was taught by Jesus and practiced by the Apostles themselves.

Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. Christian communists may or may not agree with various parts of Marxism. They generally do not agree with the antireligious views held by secular Marxists, but do agree with many of the economic and existential aspects of Marxist theory, such as the idea that capitalism exploits the working class by extracting surplus value from the workers in the form of profits and that wage-labor is a tool of human alienation that promotes arbitrary and unjust authority. Christian communism, like Marxism, also holds that capitalism encourages the negative aspects of human nature, supplanting values such as mercy, kindness, justice and compassion in favor of greed, selfishness and blind ambition.

Christian communists also share some of the political goals of Marxists, for example replacing capitalism with socialism, which should in turn be followed by communism at a later point in the future. However, Christian communists sometimes disagree with Marxists (and particularly with Leninists) on the way a socialist or communist society should be organized. In general, Christian communism evolved independently of Marxism, and most Christian communists share the conclusions but not the underlying premises of Marxist communists.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

 

 

Communism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Jump to: navigation, search

In Marxist theory, communism is a specific stage of historical development that inevitably emerges from the development of the productive forces that leads to a superabundance of material wealth, allowing for distribution based on need and social relations based on freely associated individuals.[1][2]

The exact definition of communism varies, and it is often mistakenly, in general political discourse, used interchangeably with socialism; however, Marxist theory contends that socialism is just a transitional stage on the road to communism. Leninism adds to Marxism the notion of a vanguard party to lead the proletarian revolution and to hold all political power after the revolution, "in the name of the workers" and with worker participation, in a transitional stage between capitalism and socialism.

 

 

In the history of Western thought, certain elements of the idea of a society based on common ownership of property can be traced back to ancient times. Examples include the Spartacus slave revolt in Rome.[11] The 5th century Mazdak movement in what is now Iran has been described as "communistic" for challenging the enormous privileges of the noble classes and the clergy, criticizing the institution of private property and for striving for an egalitarian society.[12]

At one time or another, various small communist communities existed, generally under the inspiration of Scripture.[13] In the medieval Christian church, for example, some monastic communities and religious orders shared their land and other property (see Religious and Christian communism). These groups often believed that concern with private property was a distraction from religious service to God and neighbour.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

quote:   Originally Posted by Jennifer Bestworking:

Most of the worst violence in human history was committed in the 20th Century by those who advocated atheism as part of their creed -- the communists.

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Look at the horrors done in the name of god that were and still are being committed. Atheism=communism, typical christian "scare tactic". 


Hi Jennifer,

 

What Interventor actually said was COMMUNISM=ATHEISM.  There is a big difference.  Not all atheists are Communists; but, all Communist must be atheist -- regardless of your Wiki article.  To call someone a Christian Communist is rather like saying that the Headless Horseman has two heads.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

quote:  Originally Posted by dilligaff:

I may be wrong,but don't  Christians , Jews and Muslims all belive in the same God. The God of Abraham


Hi Dilli,

 

True, Christians and Jews do worship the same God, the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham.

 

But, Muslims worship Allah, from the Qur'an.  He is not God, but is the Islamic god.

 

The God of the Bible is a very personal God who is intimately involved in the daily workings of His creation.   Allah is a very distant, very impersonal god.   They definitely are not the same.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Islam evolved from one of the many gods of the middle eastern area.  At one time, Mecca was the center for this polytheistic worship. Under Mohammad, he exalted one of the stone gods of that area to create a monotheistic religion to rival the jews. Later he adopted portions of scripture from which he fashioned the theology of islam.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Most of the worst violence in human history was committed in the 20th Century by those who advocated atheism as part of their creed -- the communists.

---------------------------------------------

Look at the horrors done in the name of god that were and still are being committed. Atheism=communism, typical christian "scare tactic".

No, Best, I did not equate communism and atheism as the same. I stated that being atheist is not a gurantee that one will not be involved with horrors and crimes, any more than any other creed.  Simply put, I claimed that no matter the belief, there is a dark heart in human nature that may, repeat may, lead to commission of such crimes.  A person may over come that nature, no matter his beliefs. I believe that being a Christian is the best way. 

Originally Posted by dilligaff:

Do Muslims not consider Abraham,Moses and Jesus Christ to be prophets of Allah. Is it not true that the name of Jesus Christ is found more often in the Qur'an than that of Muhammad. In the Islamic faith isn't Jesus considered the most inportant prophet and Muhammad only the last ?

Just asking !

You  are wasting your breath trying to argue this with the fundamentalists.  Though it is in fact the same God, just different books, the fundies will twist any reality they have to to keep their house of cards standing.

quote:   Originally Posted by dilligaff:

Do Muslims not consider Abraham,Moses and Jesus Christ to be prophets of Allah.  Is it not true that the name of Jesus Christ is found more often in the Qur'an than that of Muhammad.  In the Islamic faith isn't Jesus considered the most important prophet and Muhammad only the last?  Just asking!


Hi Dilli,

 

Yes, Muslims do consider Jesus Christ as a very important prophet -- second only to Mohammed.  In the Muslim faith, Islam, no one is higher than Mohammed -- except Allah.  However, they do not consider Jesus Christ to be deity.  To them, He is just a great man, a great teacher -- but, He is not God.  And, they get very insulted if you tell them that He is the Son of God.

 

So, in a way, Muslims look at Jesus much like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses -- a man, albeit, a great man or an exalted man.  But, still only a man and not God.

 

And, Allah is not God.  He is an impersonal god of the Muslims; but, not God of the Bible.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Judge Martin threw the case out on the grounds that Elbayomy was obligated to attack Perce because of his culture and religion. Judge Martin stated that the First Amendment of the Constitution does not permit people to provoke other people. He also called Perce, the plaintiff in the case, a "doofus." In effect, Perce was the perpetrator of the assault, in Judge Martin's view, and Elbayomy the innocent. The Sharia law that the Muslim attacker followed trumped the First Amendment.

Words almost fail.

The Washington Post recently reported on an appeals court decision to maintain an injunction to stop the implementation of an amendment to the Oklahoma state constitution that bans the use of Sharia law in state courts. The excuse the court gave was that there was no documented case of Sharia law being invoked in an American court. Judge Martin would seem to have provided that example, which should provide fodder for the argument as the case goes through the federal courts.

Extra, when you hear of stories in the news about atheist opposing public school endorsed prayer, or the teaching of creationism as science to our children, you are witnessing atheism fighting against ALL religion in our government. Not just Christianity. Just so happens that Christianity has been the predominate religion, so it is oppose more often than others. What this judge did is no different than what Roy Moore tried to do in our state capitol. What secularist and atheist have been trying to say for so long now is that if you allow one religion to have a say in our justice system then you will be opening the door to all others. Many Christians just can't seem to get their minds wrapped around that. The story above is a perfect example of what we have been warning against. If you don't want to be living in a country that is possibly governed by sharia law, then you too should join in the effort to oppose ANY religion being used in this fashion. Including your own.

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