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    Hospital $840.00
  • Anesthesia service 50.00
  • Radiology (x-ray) 100.00
  • Surgeon's fee 140.00
  • ER physician's fee 30.00
  • Physical therapy 300.00
Splint (monthly rental) 50.00
----------------------------------------------
Total (so far) $1510.00

$1,510.00 is the total amount we've had to pay so far for my son's broken arm, including two days in the hospital and physical therapy. We were charged the $300.00 deductible twice because, you see, there's the in-patient hospital admission and then there's physical therapy that, for some unknown reason, is considered "in-patient" as well - even though, the PT is for the broken arm, not something separate!

What if we (his parents) did not have jobs and this happened? Or what if we made only minimum wage? There would be no way to cough up this $1,500.00. The number one reason families file for bankruptcy in this country is outrageous medical bills like this.

I understand that we have to pay some out of pocket, but where is the cap? Next year, that per admission/in-patient deductible is going up to $400.00 per occasion; I suppose the year after that it will go to $500.00. The office co-pay is going up and, of course, so is the premium.

I do not understand why the status quo is okay with some people. Laissez-faire it is on this subject!
Original Post

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Addendum -

All costs in the first post are just the customary up-front deductibles, co-pays, and other various forms of being nickel and dimed before the insurance kicked in at 90%. The total bill for his broken arm would have been $13,852.00 - imagine a bill like that without insurance. Now what is it the millions of uninsured and underinsured in this country are complaining about? Such whiners. Roll Eyes
I am dealing with this right now. My husband died with no insurance and I have gotten 6 different medical bills since his death. I've had to do lots of negotiating with the doctors to either write-off the bills, get discounts for paying in full, or setting up payment plans. Most are willing to work with you, especially when they know that you don't have a job, insurance, and the money to pay them very much. It's a huge hassle at the moment, but it will be worth it once everyone is paid off.
WIP:
What did he do to his arm? Multiple breaks, ripped muscles, ripped tendons?

That is a ridiculous price. You realize that this is what the hospital, er, radiology, physical therapy, etc all charged separately.

The Obamacare will not touch on any of those. If the pay rates follow guidelines for Medicare/Medicaid, the doctor will refuse to take you.



Bookworm, my sympathies.
One reason health care is so expensive now is because the government gives the doctors pennies on the dollar for the government programs that already exist and the doctor's/hospitals shift the cost to you.

Private insurance will be driven higher and eventually you will be left with one option. One corrupt, , inefficient, incompetent provider. Fewer doctors, fewer hospitals, less research, and the end of expensive treatments that keep your parents alive.
quote:
Originally posted by barracus:
WIP:
What did he do to his arm? Multiple breaks, ripped muscles, ripped tendons?

That is a ridiculous price. You realize that this is what the hospital, er, radiology, physical therapy, etc all charged separately.

The Obamacare will not touch on any of those. If the pay rates follow guidelines for Medicare/Medicaid, the doctor will refuse to take you.


barracus,

He was trying to be John Cena...jumped off the bed onto an invisible opponent (landing on the elbow)...you get the picture. The break was above the elbow, so he required a full-arm cast for several weeks. When the cast finally came off, we couldn't get him to straighten his arm with just PT. So now he's in a splint at night that's designed to straighten his arm gradually while he's sleeping and his muscles are relaxed. We've got three degrees to go to get him there! It was a bad break.

I knew the charges would be separate; this is not my first time to deal with a hospital bill. I just think the amount we're paying out of pocket is crazy. Now we're just waiting on a bill from housekeeping, since it seems to be the only department that hasn't sent us one yet. Wink
quote:
Originally posted by The Bookworm:
I am dealing with this right now. My husband died with no insurance and I have gotten 6 different medical bills since his death. I've had to do lots of negotiating with the doctors to either write-off the bills, get discounts for paying in full, or setting up payment plans. Most are willing to work with you, especially when they know that you don't have a job, insurance, and the money to pay them very much. It's a huge hassle at the moment, but it will be worth it once everyone is paid off.

My original bills only totaled $48374.66.


I'm sorry to hear of your husband's passing, Bookworm. It must be terrible to deal with this loss and try to figure out a way to pay off such a large bill at the same time.
WIP,
I did not mean to imply you would not understand the bill. I typed faster than I thought.

The amount out of pocket is better than the full bill. How much does your premiums cost in relation to the bill? My point was that even if we get some kind of healthcare reform, it won't change the status quo much. Add to that, we will pay taxes into it for 4 or 5 years BEFORE any one can get any benefits. If anything changes, it will be 5 years or so from now.


I had to do a similar wheel and deal that bookworm did.

Managed to get a $1300 physical therapy bill down to $850 by agreeing to pay it all at once. The hospitals are not as evil as they seem, its just the whole system is grossly overcharging for everything.

If Congress really wants to help, do tort reform, drop waiting times on pre-existing conditions and make insurance companies sell across state lines. BCBS has a strangle hold on Alabama that needs to be broken.
People,

I never said Obama-care was the way to go. I said, more or less, that something's got to give! We the people can't sustain costs like this - that keep going up, up, up.

LoveShack,

quote:

Not only will it cost more but you would be lucky if a doctor even sees your son within 12 hours.


You made this statement in reference to Obama-care, but I don't know of anyone with good medical insurance that can get in within 12 hours now; you'd be lucky to get a call back in that amount of time with some doctors. And most ER's already have a long wait time - can be hours and hours as it is; reform won't change that.

Some form of rationing is going to happen, no matter what. We've got too many Baby Boomers with too many maladies and not enough primary care physicians to care for them. We've got too many fat, careless, smokers that want everyone else to pay for their reckless choices. Unless people start to really take care of themselves (as opposed to having bariatric surgery), we're gonna need more doctors; someone's gonna be waiting in line.

I ask all of you that are apparently against reform, why aren't you screaming louder about lifestyle choices? Isn't the Republican party the party of personal responsibility? Oh, that's right, it only applies to government intervention. When it comes to smoking and eating all the snack cakes you can inhale, you want the government to keep out of your business - that is, until those choices render you "disabled" and you're sucking cash off the tax payers in the form of disability payments, or you end up seeing a doctor with ailments that could have been prevented. Whether you have private or government paid insurance, my premium will go up to treat you! This is the part that the status quo Republicans don't seem to get: individual choices impact all of us!
I took out the Blue Advantage supplement to Medicare for my mother 2 years ago. We had just been paying the 20% out of our pockets and between she and I we were getting it paid. She was going to have to have cateract surgery so we decided we would take out the supplement. At that time it was $56 a month for hospital and medicine (which she has medicine coverage still from my dad's retirement which we kept and would just fill med. on whichever was cheapest). Well guess what...last year Blue Advantage went up from $56 to $71 did add a couple of extra things they were covering so we didn't complain too much. Just got a letter yesterday that it is going up from $71 to $141 starting Jan. Not only are they not adding any new coverage but they are going to start charging copays on everything that didn't have any. I told my mother she would be better off to put the $56 or $71 she has been paying in a special savings account each month and just go back to regular medicare and we would pay the 20% out of pocket. It is ridiculus they are doubling the cost as well as adding co-pays!
But why react with emotion to a problem? Everyone gets stirred up crazy about health care reform. The problem with our health care is multi-faceted. We have bad doctors, bad drugs, bad hospitals and bad treatment decisions driving up costs. Good doctors pay exceedingly high malpractice insurance because of the bad physicians who are allowed to practice. Patients sue over things as minor as farts and fevers. Drug companies pressure the FDA to push through drugs that have unforseen side effects that cripple and kill people. There are, undeniably, problems with our health care system but none so serious I would want to see the ever so incompetent government take it over. If we think it's bad now, all we have to do is look at the U.S. government's track record on managing anything. FEMA, USPS, Social (In)security, Medicare, Welfare and let's also look at what the government spends on common everyday items. $800 toilet seats and $500 hammers.

The system isn't perfect and can stand improvement but what we have is much more desirable than Obamacare.
quote:
Originally posted by 2benzes:
The system isn't perfect and can stand improvement but what we have is much more desirable than Obamacare.


Again, I'm not campaigning for Obamacare here; I just want changes.

I believe in capitalism and think it works, but there are times when government intervention is needed. For example, a little more government regulation probably would have stopped the Enron scandal. The Sarbanes-Oxley Act was passed because of these guys.

We've been convinced in this country that capitalism means it's okay for many people to be poor, as long as there's an opportunity for a few others to make money. The same can be said of our ideas about health care/insurance: in order for some to have, there must be those that go without - around 45 million at last count.
Giving the government control over your health care is like signing away your freedom. I can't wait until all the regulations get passed because some commission has found this is bad for you. As far as personal responsibility and getting fat, hey those are choices with consequence but I want to make those choices not have them made for me. Where will they stop?

To live free means we can not depend on the government for every thing we need. I remmeber my Grandfather talking about traveling all over the country picking up what ever job he could to keep his family fed. I my self worked hard and pushed so that I could get a job with benefits and good pay. I had to sacrifice early on, swallow my pride, fail, fall down, get back up and try again. We don't want to do that anymore, we just want it handed to us. Its not fair I don't have health insurance, its not fair I don't make what they make, its not fair...

Quit looking to the government to fix your problems, look to yourself, your family, your friends. Freedom comes with a price, it is not one just paid for by soldiers but also by the people who are free. We have decided we want security over freedom.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"

We have a responsibility to this republic to make choices that are not always easy, or popular, but we the people need to make. Do not blame the democrats or the republicans, look in the mirror because it is you and I...We the people who have decided the fate of this country. We have decided that we want nice comfortable pens so that our masters can sheer us like the sheep we have become.
There are always going to be those who have more, and those who have less. Hard work, the right parents, or simple luck will make a difference between "rich" and "poor". Even the poorest in our country have enviable lifestyles to the rest of the world. But even then, some people will elect to not have insurance or elect to not save money or choose to live far beyond their means. Then, when the piper needs to be paid, there will be those who whine or moan about how unfair the system is. That's the human condition.

I've no objection to healthcare reform that fixes some of the glaring inadequacies...tort reform, selling across state lines, pre-existing condition reforms. But I've a huge objection to paying increased taxes to protect people from their own short-sightedness. I pay for healthcare for my family where the money could go to purchasing jet skis, tequila, or trips to Mazatlan.

I've had experience with a government-run healthcare program during my first years with the military. It was available, but when you find the staff psychiatrist acting as the attending physician at the emergency room, you need to question the real quality of care you might receive. "I know your arm appears broken, but how do you feel about it?" Even military healthcare is no longer sustainable as it once was. And that was a pretty good model. And people actually believe Obamacare will actually work?
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
There are always going to be those who have more, and those who have less. Hard work, the right parents, or simple luck will make a difference between "rich" and "poor". Even the poorest in our country have enviable lifestyles to the rest of the world. But even then, some people will elect to not have insurance or elect to not save money or choose to live far beyond their means. Then, when the piper needs to be paid, there will be those who whine or moan about how unfair the system is. That's the human condition.


I agree with part of that zip. There are people who make those choices and have only theirselves to blame. My husband and I were not like those people. We have never lived beyond our means. He lost his job through no fault of his own and spent a year working odd jobs, taking temp jobs, selling every prized possession, and even selling his plasma twice a week to keep a roof over our head and the bills paid, but it still wasn't enough. Insurance was a luxury that we couldn't afford. By the way he did get offered a good job, the day after he died. Roll Eyes

Basic medical care isn't a problem; some are not that expensive and the health department is either free or cheep depending on your income. Hospital care is too expensive. For that reason alone I'm getting the kids and myself insurance as soon as possible. I'm not complaining about my life; there are those that are in a lot worse shape than I am and I do see an end to my medical woes.

Seeing how the government winds up making worse everything they try to fix, I'm against Obamacare.
I agree with part of what DocDerez and zip said as well. But the system is simply set up to make it almost impossible for some people to attain quality health insurance; it's really not a matter of priorities anymore.

Here's what I think needs to happen:

*Ability to sell across state lines.

*Pre-existing conditions reform - meaning dropping some of the ridiculous guidelines in place now for insurance underwriters.

*A safety net for those out of work - and earnestly trying to find it - much like unemployment benefits, to cover until they can afford it again.

*Do away with plans that render people underinsured due to lack of real coverage in the plan.

*Do away with employer-sponsored plans. I realize some companies want to keep this as part of the compensation package, but I don't want to be stuck with an employer I'm displeased with just for the insurance. All plans should be individual and transferable (from job to job).

*A means for those stuck in the middle, i.e. make too much for a government-sponsored plan and too little for a private plan, to afford coverage. In other words, make it affordable.

Everyone always complains about government bureaucracy, i.e. reimbursement issues, but what about insurance company bureaucracy? An example of this is the fee-for-procedure arrangement that exists now for physicians. Physicians are paid for each service they provide, so in order to pay bills and salaries, it is in their best interest to order expensive tests that a patient may not need.

Also, for example, if you go to a dermatologist for a regular check-up and she/he finds a suspicious mole, it can't be removed that day (in what would take about five minutes) while you're already there. You have to come for a follow-up visit to have it removed and biopsied because that's how insurance companies pay physicians.

So, last on the list...
*Physicians should be paid a salary and allowed to do what they were taught in medical school: treat patients.
Last edited by Wild Irish Prose
quote:
Originally posted by barracus:
I hope you find something you can afford.
If your kids attend school, does the state still offer insurance that way? It used too a few millenniums ago.


The schools offer insurance if your child is playing sports. I don't know if it includes other children.

I'm planning on using All Kids; that's the ones the teachers recommend. It's a good BC/BS insurance plan that has vision and dental, and you pay according to your income.
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Irish Prose:
I agree with part of what DocDerez and zip said as well. But the system is simply set up to make it almost impossible for some people to attain quality health insurance; it's really not a matter of priorities anymore.

Here's what I think needs to happen:

*Ability to sell across state lines.

*Pre-existing conditions reform - meaning dropping some of the ridiculous guidelines in place now for insurance underwriters.

*A safety net for those out of work - and earnestly trying to find it - much like unemployment benefits, to cover until they can afford it again.

*Do away with plans that render people underinsured due to lack of real coverage in the plan.

*Do away with employer-sponsored plans. I realize some companies want to keep this as part of the compensation package, but I don't want to be stuck with an employer I'm displeased with just for the insurance. All plans should be individual and transferable (from job to job).

*A means for those stuck in the middle, i.e. make too much for a government-sponsored plan and too little for a private plan, to afford coverage. In other words, make it affordable.

Everyone always complains about government bureaucracy, i.e. reimbursement issues, but what about insurance company bureaucracy? An example of this is the fee-for-procedure arrangement that exists now for physicians. Physicians are paid for each service they provide, so in order to pay bills and salaries, it is in their best interest to order expensive tests that a patient may not need.

Also, for example, if you go to a dermatologist for a regular check-up and she/he finds a suspicious mole, it can't be removed that day (in what would take about five minutes) while you're already there. You have to come for a follow-up visit to have it removed and biopsied because that's how insurance companies pay physicians.

So, last on the list...
*Physicians should be paid a salary and allowed to do what they were taught in medical school: treat patients.


Yes, there needs to be some type of reform. I disagree with you on the idea that so many people are against it. I think so many people are against OBAMAs reform. Govt can pass legislation (like selling across state lines) to help guide insurance companies in the right direction, but to allow the govt to get their hands in the insurance business would be a HUGE mistake.

The US Govt needs to get on the ball and worry more about things that drive healthcare costs up (thus driving insurance costs up). Things like ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! Do you have any idea how much of a burden on the healthcare system our illegals are? Look at the Decatur Hospital, it almost went under because of it. Look at our car insurance, its goes up because so many uninsured motorists are on the road.

Lets fix these multi million dollar lawsuits against hospitals and doctors. Realize it or not, we pay for that. Doctors charge more to pay for their insurance (that charges more), then insurance companies charge us more and WE PAY FOR IT. Lets cap some of these lawsuits and put some common sense into the legal system. Geez....

The deeper the govt becomes involved in the business the worse it will get.

Kirk
quote:
Originally posted by The Bookworm:
quote:
Originally posted by zippadeedoodah:
There are always going to be those who have more, and those who have less. Hard work, the right parents, or simple luck will make a difference between "rich" and "poor". Even the poorest in our country have enviable lifestyles to the rest of the world. But even then, some people will elect to not have insurance or elect to not save money or choose to live far beyond their means. Then, when the piper needs to be paid, there will be those who whine or moan about how unfair the system is. That's the human condition.


I agree with part of that zip. There are people who make those choices and have only theirselves to blame. My husband and I were not like those people. We have never lived beyond our means. He lost his job through no fault of his own and spent a year working odd jobs, taking temp jobs, selling every prized possession, and even selling his plasma twice a week to keep a roof over our head and the bills paid, but it still wasn't enough. Insurance was a luxury that we couldn't afford. By the way he did get offered a good job, the day after he died. Roll Eyes

Basic medical care isn't a problem; some are not that expensive and the health department is either free or cheep depending on your income. Hospital care is too expensive. For that reason alone I'm getting the kids and myself insurance as soon as possible. I'm not complaining about my life; there are those that are in a lot worse shape than I am and I do see an end to my medical woes.

Seeing how the government winds up making worse everything they try to fix, I'm against Obamacare.



Have you applied for allkids insurance for your children? here is a linkAll Kids
Best of luck to you and your children.
quote:
Originally posted by mekirk2:
Yes, there needs to be some type of reform. I disagree with you on the idea that so many people are against it. I think so many people are against OBAMAs reform. Govt can pass legislation (like selling across state lines) to help guide insurance companies in the right direction, but to allow the govt to get their hands in the insurance business would be a HUGE mistake.

The US Govt needs to get on the ball and worry more about things that drive healthcare costs up (thus driving insurance costs up). Things like ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION! Do you have any idea how much of a burden on the healthcare system our illegals are? Look at the Decatur Hospital, it almost went under because of it. Look at our car insurance, its goes up because so many uninsured motorists are on the road.

Lets fix these multi million dollar lawsuits against hospitals and doctors. Realize it or not, we pay for that. Doctors charge more to pay for their insurance (that charges more), then insurance companies charge us more and WE PAY FOR IT. Lets cap some of these lawsuits and put some common sense into the legal system. Geez....

The deeper the govt becomes involved in the business the worse it will get.


I agree with you on this, mekirk2. I think, if nothing else, this country should put more pressure on countries like Mexico to clean up their government; we can't keep importing third world poverty. Of course, I realize this is never going to happen as long as drug cartels are running things. The fact is citizens of other countries are not our responsibility.

As for the lawsuits, tort reform will never happen as long as there are trial lawyers around and money to be made.
quote:
Originally posted by DocDerez:
Giving the government control over your health care is like signing away your freedom. I can't wait until all the regulations get passed because some commission has found this is bad for you. As far as personal responsibility and getting fat, hey those are choices with consequence but I want to make those choices not have them made for me. Where will they stop?

To live free means we can not depend on the government for every thing we need. I remmeber my Grandfather talking about traveling all over the country picking up what ever job he could to keep his family fed. I my self worked hard and pushed so that I could get a job with benefits and good pay. I had to sacrifice early on, swallow my pride, fail, fall down, get back up and try again. We don't want to do that anymore, we just want it handed to us. Its not fair I don't have health insurance, its not fair I don't make what they make, its not fair...

Quit looking to the government to fix your problems, look to yourself, your family, your friends. Freedom comes with a price, it is not one just paid for by soldiers but also by the people who are free. We have decided we want security over freedom.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"

We have a responsibility to this republic to make choices that are not always easy, or popular, but we the people need to make. Do not blame the democrats or the republicans, look in the mirror because it is you and I...We the people who have decided the fate of this country. We have decided that we want nice comfortable pens so that our masters can sheer us like the sheep we have become.

Very well said. I truly feel for those who have lost their insurance along with their job, or those who have a true disability that prevents them from working. I have trouble with those who say they can't afford insurance (Blue Cross Blue Shield has open enrollment every year) but can live in big house, drive a new car, or spend all of their money on cigarettes and cell phones. I was sitting at a gathering recently where a pregnant young woman was showing off her engagment ring. Someone asked when the wedding was, and she replied that it would have to be after the baby was born so as not to affect her free healthcare.
Somehow, we've gotten the idea that healthcare doesn't rank up there with possessions in things we should value enough to pay for. Again, I'm not talking about those who really have no choice, just those who think it isn't a priority because they are young and healthy. But one accident or one illness can bankrupt you.
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Irish Prose:
quote:
Originally posted by 2benzes:
The system isn't perfect and can stand improvement but what we have is much more desirable than Obamacare.


Again, I'm not campaigning for Obamacare here; I just want changes.

I believe in capitalism and think it works, but there are times when government intervention is needed. For example, a little more government regulation probably would have stopped the Enron scandal. The Sarbanes-Oxley Act was passed because of these guys.

We've been convinced in this country that capitalism means it's okay for many people to be poor, as long as there's an opportunity for a few others to make money. The same can be said of our ideas about health care/insurance: in order for some to have, there must be those that go without - around 45 million at last count.


That is not what capitalism means. Why should I work hard, put myself through college for a good career and pay someone else's way? BTW the out of the 45 million only about 1/3 around 15 million count. That is because the rest are illegals and those who can afford health care but choose not to get it. I give to charity and help those who help themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by HIFLYER:
That is not what capitalism means. Why should I work hard, put myself through college for a good career and pay someone else's way? BTW the out of the 45 million only about 1/3 around 15 million count. That is because the rest are illegals and those who can afford health care but choose not to get it. I give to charity and help those who help themselves.


And you're oversimplifying this subject with one paragraph. Stop paying taxes, then. Demand that no more money be taken from your paycheck to pay for others' social security. After all, the old and disabled should just get off their butts and work to pay their own way.

Do me a favor, HI. As an experiment, you figure out how much it would take out of the paycheck of a minimum wage earner, or even someone that makes $10/hr, to pay for medical insurance. Wonder if said earner would be able to afford a car, home - and not the best ones, mind you, just the basics - put food on the table, pay for childcare, etc. And, yes, there are those who make such a small amount of money; not everyone gets to go to college. Get back to us on it. Oh, and do me another favor: actually read what I've typed on this particular thread. Roll Eyes
I read them all and I did not say anything about SS. I could of took the path most of my high school friends did but I did not. I worked my way through college for 10 years. I sacrificed for years to earn what I do now, most do not want it bad enough to do the same. While I feel for people who earn less ALL have the option to do what I did work for it. I know how much it takes for a $10/per to cover the basics because that was my approx income and I still went to college at night.
Okay, HI.

Scenario: What if someone with or without a college degree and earning decent money loses his job. Of course, as always, Murphy's moving in at that point. First, this person has to use all his savings - as he's searching for another job - for expensive house and car repairs. Then, out of nowhere, he's diagnosed with cancer. He has no insurance and no money for treatments.

This is the scenario I'm talking about and it's playing out many times in this country, daily. He's not lazy; he did everything he was suppose to. Naturally, he would qualify for government assistance for his care, but you're paying for that, too. Doesn't that bother you?

I'm not talking about people that manipulate the system; I saw plenty of that as a cashier when customers would pay for groceries with food stamps and alcohol and cigarettes with cash. I'm talking about honest, hard-working people trying their best.

And I don't want OBAMACARE! I want real reform - something that wasn't even on the Republicans' radar for the last eight years. Reform that makes insurance companies play fair and stop rejecting claims and stop refusing coverage for really stupid reasons. I understand profit, and capitalism is all about profit. But it's just wrong to put profit above a person's life - and you know it.
Last edited by Wild Irish Prose
quote:
Originally posted by bamafan1964:
quote:
Originally posted by DocDerez:
Giving the government control over your health care is like signing away your freedom. I can't wait until all the regulations get passed because some commission has found this is bad for you. As far as personal responsibility and getting fat, hey those are choices with consequence but I want to make those choices not have them made for me. Where will they stop?

To live free means we can not depend on the government for every thing we need. I remmeber my Grandfather talking about traveling all over the country picking up what ever job he could to keep his family fed. I my self worked hard and pushed so that I could get a job with benefits and good pay. I had to sacrifice early on, swallow my pride, fail, fall down, get back up and try again. We don't want to do that anymore, we just want it handed to us. Its not fair I don't have health insurance, its not fair I don't make what they make, its not fair...

Quit looking to the government to fix your problems, look to yourself, your family, your friends. Freedom comes with a price, it is not one just paid for by soldiers but also by the people who are free. We have decided we want security over freedom.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"

We have a responsibility to this republic to make choices that are not always easy, or popular, but we the people need to make. Do not blame the democrats or the republicans, look in the mirror because it is you and I...We the people who have decided the fate of this country. We have decided that we want nice comfortable pens so that our masters can sheer us like the sheep we have become.

Very well said. I truly feel for those who have lost their insurance along with their job, or those who have a true disability that prevents them from working. I have trouble with those who say they can't afford insurance (Blue Cross Blue Shield has open enrollment every year) but can live in big house, drive a new car, or spend all of their money on cigarettes and cell phones. I was sitting at a gathering recently where a pregnant young woman was showing off her engagment ring. Someone asked when the wedding was, and she replied that it would have to be after the baby was born so as not to affect her free healthcare.
Somehow, we've gotten the idea that healthcare doesn't rank up there with possessions in things we should value enough to pay for. Again, I'm not talking about those who really have no choice, just those who think it isn't a priority because they are young and healthy. But one accident or one illness can bankrupt you.


KUDOS to both..!! Extremely well said and absolutely right on. When I was young, ten foot tall and bullet proof, I had no medical insurance. I awoke one morning go find myself in debt for medical expenses that exceeded every penny I would earn for the next two years, BUT instead of having a pity party for myself or turning to government/charity, I accepted the wake up call and RESPONSIBILITY for my own decision to insure my cars and house but not health. I worked extra jobs, sometimes 20 hours out of 24 but I worked my way out of it and never once considered any kind of default. With that experience, it is impossible for me to understand why we have a government and a population of people who believe they are entitled to penalize another segment of the population, who through initiative, hard work, inspiration and attitude, have prospered...

The government and the EARNER/TAX PAYER are not responsible for your health care...IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. The bulk of all tax revenues collected come from successful people, while nearly 50 percent pay nothing, they are blood sucking leaches who contribute nothing but dead weight.
Last edited by SHELDIVR
quote:
Originally posted by HIFLYER:
Why would I want to pay for something I already have? You know companies will not give you the money they were paying now. This is where most people I talk to have the problem with what you want. They like their company health care and you want to take that away.


I like my company health care, too - until I possibly don't like my company anymore. Company sponsored health care is sometimes the only thing keeping people at their jobs, unhappy. And if you leave that company and are between jobs - waiting for another form of insurance to kick in - you better hope you aren't diagnosed with one of the pre-existing conditions that private health insurers love to exclude people for. Then, you're screwed.

So, personally, I'd like a plan that I can take with me to the next job, or the freedom to start my own business, knowing I already have insurance and won't have to worry about waiting on a trial period imposed by the next employer/insurer (or worry about developing a disease AND being excluded from care because said trial period for pre-existing conditions isn't up). What about that do you not get?

Employers are going to continue to shift more of the financial burden of the insurance to the employees. My own deductible is going up $100 next year (to $400); co-pays and the premium are going up, again, as well. Anyway, I've worked in HR before and have a clue about benefits and costs. Employers pay an obscene amount on their end for employee insurance and that's money they could use to expand or hire. So, you see, employers aren't exactly untouched by the high costs, either.
quote:
Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
KUDOS to both..!! Extremely well said and absolutely right on. When I was young, ten foot tall and bullet proof, I had no medical insurance. I awoke one morning go find myself in debt for medical expenses that exceeded every penny I would earn for the next two years, BUT instead of having a pity party for myself or turning to government/charity, I accepted the wake up call and RESPONSIBILITY for my own decision to insure my cars and house but not health. I worked extra jobs, sometimes 20 hours out of 24 but I worked my way out of it and never once considered any kind of default. With that experience, it is impossible for me to understand why we have a government and a population of people who believe they are entitled to penalize another segment of the population, who through initiative, hard work, inspiration and attitude, have prospered...

The government and the EARNER/TAX PAYER are not responsible for your health care...IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. The bulk of all tax revenues collected come from successful people, while nearly 50 percent pay nothing, they are blood sucking leaches who contribute nothing but dead weight.


That's all fine and great, Shel. If the insurance companies in this country would do what they're suppose to, I'd be happy without government intervention. But if it comes to that, those companies can't exactly cry; they've had plenty of time to change their ridiculous ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Irish Prose:
quote:
Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
KUDOS to both..!! Extremely well said and absolutely right on. When I was young, ten foot tall and bullet proof, I had no medical insurance. I awoke one morning go find myself in debt for medical expenses that exceeded every penny I would earn for the next two years, BUT instead of having a pity party for myself or turning to government/charity, I accepted the wake up call and RESPONSIBILITY for my own decision to insure my cars and house but not health. I worked extra jobs, sometimes 20 hours out of 24 but I worked my way out of it and never once considered any kind of default. With that experience, it is impossible for me to understand why we have a government and a population of people who believe they are entitled to penalize another segment of the population, who through initiative, hard work, inspiration and attitude, have prospered...

The government and the EARNER/TAX PAYER are not responsible for your health care...IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. The bulk of all tax revenues collected come from successful people, while nearly 50 percent pay nothing, they are blood sucking leaches who contribute nothing but dead weight.


That's all fine and great, Shel. If the insurance companies in this country would do what they're suppose to, I'd be happy without government intervention. But if it comes to that, those companies can't exactly cry; they've had plenty of time to change their ridiculous ways.


The insurance companies are doing what they are supposed to, they are making a profit for their share holders within legal constraints provided by law. The Democrats decided to villanize the insurance companies as a distraction. There are more fair and honest people in the insurance business than in Congress. The Democrats need to look for real solutions instead of someone to blame.
Here's my latest experience. My wife told a new doctor we were deciding to go to that she had a bladder infection. Of course he thought he was god and told her that she didn't without any tests. He finally decides he will send her to one of our local hospitals for a cat scan. That was the first of Aug. We get a bill from the hospital for 274.00 to be paid with in 20 days in the mail Friday Oct 30. My wife calls and billing is in KY for the hospital. They charged for two of them when they only did one. Anyway, they charged the insurance 3500.00 for the two. They hadn't even billed BCBS because you can go online and look at what charges have been submitted. But the lady told her they did two of them and had submitted the bill. She asked how we knew they hadn't and she didn't realize we could see things submitted to BCBS online. This is why our healthcare is in such crap. Over billing and over charging for services. I don't want Obamacare either but something needs to change.
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Irish Prose:
quote:
Originally posted by HIFLYER:
Why would I want to pay for something I already have? You know companies will not give you the money they were paying now. This is where most people I talk to have the problem with what you want. They like their company health care and you want to take that away.


I like my company health care, too - until I possibly don't like my company anymore. Company sponsored health care is sometimes the only thing keeping people at their jobs, unhappy. And if you leave that company and are between jobs - waiting for another form of insurance to kick in - you better hope you aren't diagnosed with one of the pre-existing conditions that private health insurers love to exclude people for. Then, you're screwed.

So, personally, I'd like a plan that I can take with me to the next job, or the freedom to start my own business, knowing I already have insurance and won't have to worry about waiting on a trial period imposed by the next employer/insurer (or worry about developing a disease AND being excluded from care because said trial period for pre-existing conditions isn't up). What about that do you not get?

Employers are going to continue to shift more of the financial burden of the insurance to the employees. My own deductible is going up $100 next year (to $400); co-pays and the premium are going up, again, as well. Anyway, I've worked in HR before and have a clue about benefits and costs. Employers pay an obscene amount on their end for employee insurance and that's money they could use to expand or hire. So, you see, employers aren't exactly untouched by the high costs, either.


You never acknowledge that it will cost more for someone like me who likes his companies coverage and has no plans to move. Also the fact that no Government program is ever under budget so it will again cost me more in taxes. So as you are so fond of saying in your condensing way "What part of that do you not get?"
quote:
Originally posted by SHELDIVR:
The insurance companies are doing what they are supposed to, they are making a profit for their share holders within legal constraints provided by law. The Democrats decided to villanize the insurance companies as a distraction. There are more fair and honest people in the insurance business than in Congress. The Democrats need to look for real solutions instead of someone to blame.


Insurance companies are making a profit at the expense of human lives in too many cases. The Democrats are looking at solutions. Tell me what reform ideas Bush and the Republicans have put on the table in the last few years he was in power. You can't, can you? That's because they didn't produce an idea until a public option was tossed around. While not perfect, at least the Democrats are trying to reform health care; Republicans are just reacting to their ideas.

Personally, I don't care for either party. They all lie and only care about staying in office.
Last edited by Wild Irish Prose
quote:
Originally posted by HIFLYER:
You never acknowledge that it will cost more for someone like me who likes his companies coverage and has no plans to move. Also the fact that no Government program is ever under budget so it will again cost me more in taxes. So as you are so fond of saying in your condensing way "What part of that do you not get?"


Please read what I've actually typed. I said a PRIVATE option was fine with me as long as insurance companies start actually insuring people. They need to be forced to reform their rules about pre-existing conditions and wait times, and start covering real medical procedures. Having said that, I do think government coverage should be expanded to include more people who aren't in a position to pay.

If insurance companies are allowed to sell their services across state lines - creating more competition - the prices will start to come down. The fact is, employers may not be able to compete with this; then, I could be wrong. You will still get your private plan, HI, either way.

And you may have no plans to leave your company, but unless you're self-employed, you can't be assured that your company won't let you go at some point.
Last edited by Wild Irish Prose
quote:
Originally posted by HIFLYER:
So as you are so fond of saying in your condensing way "What part of that do you not get?"


I wasn't trying to be any "way" and apologize if it seemed like it. I just couldn't understand why what I was saying wasn't clear to you - whether you agree with me or not. It's a passionate issue on both sides and brings out passionate debate; that's a good thing. Smiler

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