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Another informed and rational response from a local Christian (the TD's Mike Goens) about the former PA prayers at Brooks HS. I find that there are more and more of these rational responses from allies as atheists come out, make a rational case for our causes and explain the issues to an uninformed and reactionary theistic majority. Props to Mike Goens and the other local Christians who have been supportive of atheists requiring that our local schools and government not continue to break the law.

Shall we pray?

That’s certainly an invitation expressed frequently in the past few weeks. It started in October when a Lauderdale County resident objected to a prayer spoken over the public address system during a Brooks High School football game. He sought support from the Freedom from Religion Foundation to fight the school’s decision to have prayer before the game.

Emotions have surfaced since, some unpleasant. They include disgust, frustration, anger, helplessness and hatred. The people who have voiced those emotions have not been all Brooks High School football fans or Lauderdale County residents. The issue has touched the nerve of Christians areawide.

There are people living in our area who feel their rights are violated when they hear a prayer at a government functions, whether it’s a football game, government meeting or in some other public venue where the public’s money is involved. Most are unwilling to object publicly, knowing they will be subjected to ridicule.

I used to harbor some of those emotions. I remember wondering how can one person overrule the wishes of a clear majority of the people. I found myself agreeing when someone said “no one is forcing that guy to pray.”

It’s a way of thinking that was in my late-teen, early-adult past, and it’s not something I’m proud of, frankly.

Don’t misunderstand. I’m a Christian and certainly believe in the power of prayer and the need to exercise Christian beliefs in dealing with our fellow man. I also have experienced one of those miracles of life that I cannot explain.

I’ve heard from a lot of vocal people in recent days who said they are Christians, yet they used harsh language when it comes to this issue. Some voiced unkind words about Lauderdale County schools Superintendent Bill Valentine after he directed personnel to end school-sponsored prayers in schools. Valentine is a fine man who displays Christian values, but he has no choice but to follow the law. He doesn’t deserve the ridicule.

My thoughts about this issue started changing when I discovered politicians turned prayer in school into a political issue. Unfortunately, some still believe the rhetoric that prayer is not allowed in school. That is untrue.

There is nothing in the law that prohibits someone from praying in schools. A teacher, principal, lunchroom worker, student or any other person at school can pray whenever they choose. They can do it as a group or individually. The exception is that a school employee cannot lead the prayer at school or while representing the school.

Hundreds got together and prayed on the field before Brooks’ game Friday night. No one went to jail. They were exercising their right.

Respecting those who do not think as we do and learning to get along with each other is pretty Christian-like in my view.
http://timesdaily.com/stories/Shall-we-pray,184094

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It's impossible to speak with force in a muffled voice from the closet

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Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

Emotions have surfaced since, some unpleasant. They include disgust, frustration, anger, helplessness and hatred.
I’ve heard from a lot of vocal people in recent days who said they are Christians, yet they used harsh language when it comes to this issue. Some voiced unkind words about Lauderdale County schools Superintendent Bill Valentine
Respecting those who do not think as we do and learning to get along with each other is pretty Christian-like in my view.

__________________________

Those Christians let their mask slip.

 

I've thought of putting a sign in my yard that says, "If you're here to tell me about God, you're Trespassing".

Hi Robust,

 

How do you know Mike Goens is a Christian?  As a matter of fact, how do you know that Bill Gray, O No, and many others on the Religion Forum are Christians?  Because we say so?   Sorry, that bar is way too low.

 

A Christian is one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who honors and treasures both the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the Written Word of God, the Bible.   A Christian is one who believes, lives, and when appropriate, will share the Word of God with others. 

 

So, how well do you know Mike Goens?  Do you know him well enough to attest to his Christian faith?  Or, are you just excited because something he wrote appears to support your atheist religion? 

 

Just a thought.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

Don’t misunderstand. I’m a Christian and certainly believe in the power of prayer and the need to exercise Christian beliefs in dealing with our fellow man.

_________________________________

AR, I mean no dis-respect but have you not mentioned before that you were an Atheist?

Are Atheists any different than humanists & if they are, how are they different?

 

Hi Chick,

 

Over the last several years, he has claimed to be both -- but, at different times.  He began as an atheist.  Then, became a secular humanist.  Then, he switched back to being a atheist again.  I suppose it all depends upon which shoes he is wearing that day.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

Originally Posted by Bill Gray:

Hi Robust,

 

How do you know Mike Goens is a Christian?  As a matter of fact, how do you know that Bill Gray, O No, and many others on the Religion Forum are Christians?  Because we say so?   Sorry, that bar is way too low.

 

A Christian is one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, who honors and treasures both the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the Written Word of God, the Bible.   A Christian is one who believes, lives, and when appropriate, will share the Word of God with others. 

 

So, how well do you know Mike Goens?  Do you know him well enough to attest to his Christian faith?  Or, are you just excited because something he wrote appears to support your atheist religion? 

 

Just a thought.

 

God bless, have a wonderful, blessed day,

 

Bill

==
Please understand that I don't give a flip about your standards for others. Another person's word on the subject is good enough for me. I am in no position to judge and I'd trust his word on the matter over yours every day of the week.

Originally Posted by semiannualchick:
Originally Posted by A. Robustus:

Don’t misunderstand. I’m a Christian and certainly believe in the power of prayer and the need to exercise Christian beliefs in dealing with our fellow man.

_________________________________

AR, I mean no dis-respect but have you not mentioned before that you were an Atheist?

Are Atheists any different than humanists & if they are, how are they different?

 

==

No disrespect at all semi. You can ask me anything. But the Iron Bowl is starting! I'll get back to you

Real quick at halftime All humanists are atheists. Atheism only describes one's lack of belief in all gods. Humanism is sort of a non-theistic ethical model. I call it atheism +. I am both an atheist and humanist. I usually use atheist here for simplicity. A friend of mine says, "great, you're an atheist. Now what?" Humanism is the answer to that. Not all atheists are humanists.

 

"Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity."
http://www.americanhumanist.or...e_Are/About_Humanism

Originally Posted by lexum:

breaking what law adot?

 

   would you please quote that law you keep referring to?

***

 

A little lesson for you, lexum.  It is called CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

 

Constitutional Law
Constitutional law deals with the interpretation and implementation of the United States Constitution. As the Constitution is the foundation of the United States, Constitutional law deals with some of the fundamental relationships within our society, which includes relationships among the states, the states and the federal government, the three branches (The Executive, Legislature, Judiciary) of the federal government, and the rights (e.g., human rights and civil rights) of the individual in relation to both federal and state government. 

http://www.statelawyers.com/Pr...fm/PracticeTypeID:22

 

You and others similarly misinformed need to disabuse yourselves of the naive and simplistic notion that there is no law governing a particular activity unless such a law can be found within the covers of some compilation of statutes.  You will find no law on the books of Lauderdale County or the State of Alabama expressly prohibiting government-controlled prayer in public schools.  It is not necessary to have such a law in order for effectuate the First Amendment of the Constitution.  Where actions contrary to the Constitution, as determined by controlling decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court or lower courts, are involved, there is no requirement that there must be some meticulously-detailed enabling legislation before the law can be enforced against such unlawful actions. 

 

You may now discontinue your petty and wrongheaded demand for "that law."

 

Now, from another perspective, you and others need to be advised that there actually IS a federal law that sets forth permissive requirements for public schools with respect to "constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary schools and secondary schools." This is your government at work to help ensure that public school systems do not interfere with student-led and student initiated prayers in the public schools.

 

************************************

 

TITLE 20 > CHAPTER 70 > SUBCHAPTER IX > Part E > subpart 2 > § 7904

§ 7904. SCHOOL PRAYER

 
(a) Guidance
The Secretary shall provide and revise guidance, not later than September 1, 2002, and of every second year thereafter, to State educational agencies, local educational agencies, and the public on constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary schools and secondary schools, including making the guidance available on the Internet. The guidance shall be reviewed, prior to distribution, by the Office of Legal Counsel of the Department of Justice for verification that the guidance represents the current state of the law concerning constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary schools and secondary schools.
(b) Certification
As a condition of receiving funds under this chapter, a local educational agency shall certify in writing to the State educational agency involved that no policy of the local educational agency prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary schools and secondary schools, as detailed in the guidance required under subsection (a) of this section. The certification shall be provided by October 1 of each year. The State educational agency shall report to the Secretary by November 1 of each year a list of those local educational agencies that have not filed the certification or against which complaints have been made to the State educational agency that the local educational agencies are not in compliance with this section.
(c) Enforcement
The Secretary is authorized and directed to effectuate subsection (b) of this section by issuing, and securing compliance with, rules or orders with respect to a local educational agency that fails to certify, or is found to have certified in bad faith, that no policy of the local educational agency prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary schools and secondary schools.
 
**********************************
 
As a matter of related interest, the federal law I have pasted below helps assure protection of the constitutionally  protected rights of public school students to engage in "prayer and meditation in public schools."
 
************************************
TITLE 20 > CHAPTER 68 > SUBCHAPTER X > Part A > § 6061
Prev | Next

§ 6061. SCHOOL PRAYER

 
No funds authorized to be appropriated under this chapter may be used by any State or local educational agency to adopt policies that prevent voluntary prayer and meditation in public schools.
 
**************************************
 
Again, Lexum,  for you and other theocratically-inclined advocates of "putting prayer back in our schools," be advised that prayer, and meditation for that matter, have not been banned from the public schools. What has been rightfully prohibited is prayer in public schools that is devised, required, instigated, controlled or otherwise imposed by GOVERNMENT, that "government" being the public school system, an arm of the civil government. That kind of prayer is not and should not be constitutionally protected.
 
I continue to be amazed and amused by persons from the ultraconservative dimension who argue that "government is best which governs least" and who allegedly want the government to stay out of their private lives, but who are  nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and  what to pray for or about.  Consistency is indeed a rare jewel in these contentious times.
 

 

Originally Posted by lexum:

con10duh++er of God.

Where is the law? i should, ear in hand, drag you down the center isle of that C0C you attend and announce to the congregation "here it is, sin in the camp" ++er of God.

****

 

As expected from the shallow likes of you--not so much as a nanogram of substance in your irrelevant reply.  I suppose that I should chalk that up to your limited skills of comprehension in matters legal or otherwise.  Stated otherwise, your obviously are among those who berate because they can not debate.  

 

I am truly shattered that my extensive effort to educate you has fallen upon deaf and  ears and a moribund psyche.  Hereafter I shall cast no more pearls before your sub-swinish persona!

I continue to be amazed and amused by persons from the ultraconservative dimension who argue that "government is best which governs least" and who allegedly want the government to stay out of their private lives, but who are  nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and  what to pray for or about.  Consistency is indeed a rare jewel in these contentious times.

 

 

 

But you have no problem with the left that do that very thing too. Odd that all the people ******* blood over the bhs "incident" would be ultraconservatives.

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

I continue to be amazed and amused by persons from the ultraconservative dimension who argue that "government is best which governs least" and who allegedly want the government to stay out of their private lives, but who are  nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and  what to pray for or about.  Consistency is indeed a rare jewel in these contentious times.

 

 

 

But you have no problem with the left that do that very thing too. Odd that all the people ******* blood over the bhs "incident" would be ultraconservatives.

*******

I have a problem with anyone who supports government-controlled public school prayer, but it puzzles me that you seem to believe that "the left...do that very thing too."  Please explain what you mean by that.  It is  in no way evident from what you posted. Can you provide an example?

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

Example? Just what I posted. Surely you don't make the claim that all the people going nuts anytime they are "challenged", and posting all the horrible things that should happen to atheists are only the "conservatives".

***

I give up.  You are obviously in an apples-and-oranges state of paranoid confusion.

 but who are  nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and  what to pray for or about. 

 

 

Try to keep up. The people you describe are the very ones that go wild and talk about what should happen to atheists or anyone else that dares "challenge" what they consider, law be ****ed, their "rights". Got that so far? Now, my comment means that there is NO way you can claim that all those people are conservatives. PLENTY of them are dems. 

 

Originally Posted by Bestworking:

 but who are  nevertheless willing to permit government to tell their children when to pray, to whom to pray, in whose name to pray,and  what to pray for or about. 

 

 

Try to keep up. The people you describe are the very ones that go wild and talk about what should happen to atheists or anyone else that dares "challenge" what they consider, law be ****ed, their "rights". Got that so far? Now, my comment means that there is NO way you can claim that all those people are conservatives. PLENTY of them are dems. 

 

*****

But you and I are describing two different areas of conviction.  I am describing those who militantly contend for restoration of government-directed school prayer and those who so contend ARE very predominantly ultraconservatives with respect to that issue and most other issues that are at play in current political debates, regardless of what party they might affiliate themselves with--Democratic, Republican, Libertarian or otherwise.

 

Your adversarial posture is toward those of any political persuasion who challenge your atheism and I readily agree that there are Dems and Repubs, liberals and conservatives of all kinds who fall in that class. I never commented on those that you describe above as "'going nuts anytime they are 'challenged', and posting all the horrible things that should happen to atheists...."  because those folks are not the discrete class of subjects of my interest vis a vis the school prayer issue.   Kindly allow me to choose the objects of my scorn and I will grant you the same prerogative, but do not expect me to expand the discussion to subsume your adversaries simply because their diverse membership includes some of the same folks I have disagreements with.

 

For the record, I hold that the right to believe that there is no god is as fully protected by the Constitution as is the right to believe in one God, a multiplicity of gods, or some abstract principle such as Tillich's  "ground of all being" or some kind of post-structuralist "transcendental signifier."

Originally Posted by Contendah:
Originally Posted by lexum:

con10duh++er of God.

Where is the law? i should, ear in hand, drag you down the center isle of that C0C you attend and announce to the congregation "here it is, sin in the camp" ++er of God.

****

 

As expected from the shallow likes of you--not so much as a nanogram of substance in your irrelevant reply.  I suppose that I should chalk that up to your limited skills of comprehension in matters legal or otherwise.  Stated otherwise, your obviously are among those who berate because they can not debate.  

 

I am truly shattered that my extensive effort to educate you has fallen upon deaf and  ears and a moribund psyche.  Hereafter I shall cast no more pearls before your sub-swinish persona!

con10duh++er of God

 

where is the law?

 

the next time i sit directly behind you at a city council meeting i'm going to gouge you in the a*rse at the most inopportune time while you are standing there head bowed during prayer  launching  you to that podium to your embarrassment before the cameras, God and everybody shouting 'not yet God my house is not in order'.

That one, lexum, is just as swinish and just as irrelevant as your initial abysmal failure to offer anything of substance to the discussion. One as pitifully impotent in polemics as you are should decamp to somewhere like the Food Talk Forum, where there is little or no need to intelligently disagree with anyone on any issue of real significance.

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